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At Daeglan's request, since this got a bit off topic from this thread viewtopic.php?f=8&t=134811 I am continuing my replies to Nightmask here to discuss the issue. My reply picks up from this last post: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=134811#p2608106

This is about the Holy Terror RCC from Rifts Dimension Book 1: Wormwood, on page 66. An NPC Holy Terror named Ralph is also in Rifts Mercenaries, which gives some other detail on the race (he is a member who never made it to Wormwood, he was mid-rift when it collapsed).

Nightmask wrote:

Tor wrote:Even assuming they all have good alignments, good alignments have never made people immune to dark purposes. A lot of NPCs in Palladium have done some dark dark things in spite of good alignments.

Which means they aren't really good, you can't do dark dark things and be good.

I would argue that Rurga being a Principled husband-killer and there being good-aligned CS soldiers en masse disputes this. Alignment clearly doesn't stop people from doing bad things, especially if they have warped views that dictate how the alignment is applied. Doc Feral who enslaves and experiments on TMNT-like creatures is Scrupulous, if I recall, yet probably does the same things as Desmond Bradford.

Nightmask wrote:Stuff like that pops into existence all the time

When has something like a Holy Terror simply popped into existence? They reek of intelligent design. They don't look biological.

Nightmask wrote:there is no comparison with the Anti-Monsters because there's nothing to support the claim that they must be warriors, must have been created by someone else, or that anyone else is telling them what to do.

Their stats reflect that of warriors, not engineers or mages. Presumably someone else made them what they are, and could presumably be commanding the Terrors.

Nightmask wrote:the promptness of their effort to rush to Wormwood to defend it against evil goes against the idea that they have any sort of master ordering them around because they clearly acted of their own initiative and in droves.

I'm not sure it's clear that it was their initiative at all. One can defend something from evil only to deliver it unto another evil. The Nightlords vs. Vampires issue in Nightbane is a good example. Or CS versus Tolkeen in Rifts.

Nightmask wrote:Now see, you're resorting to a fallacy there. You're trying to argue that they must have a creator, without anything to support that position. There is no evidence to even remotely suggest that they were created by anyone

They don't bear a resemblance to biologically evolved entities. The closest equivalent I can think of to someone with inherent spellcasting abilities as they have would be Faerie Folk, and we are not clear on how they originated.

Nightmask wrote:or that any non-Holy Terrors exist that they serve, and one cannot argue that 'well they must have been created by someone and they're probably still be around' because it's an argument that uses itself as 'proof', and that's not proof of anything.

Except I'm not arguing that this is a definite case, merely that it is a possibility I find likely.

Nightmask wrote:you refer to them as being 'obviously' shock troopers

"In a matter of minutes an army of holy terrors was sent to crush the demonic forces. More troops would have arrived..."

Sounds like shock troops to me.

Sent implies a sender. Who sent them? Other Holy Terrors? Or something else?

Nightmask wrote:and that someone must have created them while drawing a flawed comparison between them and Anti-Monsters. Just because some things may have superficial similarities doesn't mean that they have anything really in common. What we have been told about Holy Terrors is limited, but it doesn't support the suggestions that anyone created them

Actually there is a lot of support for this suggestion and comparison:

"Many techno-wizards suspect they are some sort of magic robot .. Another theory is that they are the merging of man, machine and magic"

Sounds like a TW borg like the Anti-Monster to me.

Nightmask wrote:or that they're shock troopers or were created to be warriors by anyone.

When you're described as an army of troops, calling them warriors makes sense. 'Shock' just means you're the first wave sent in, doesn't it?

They're also called a 'self contained fighting machine'.

Fun note: just noticed they're called 'a creature of magic'. Kinda like Fairies...

Nightmask wrote: It's just as likely if not moreso that they evolved naturally based on the nature of their world, just like so many other supernatural creatures and magical beings have. The multiverse seems to enjoy spontaneously creating things from microbes to the Old Ones.

Those all seem quite biological though. While alive, the Terrors have very mechanical attributes. I don't recall seeing this in other RCCs that evolved. The closest match I can think of are the Machine People (who were created) and some Mechanical Morphus Nightbane (whose shapes are created by the human unconscious).

Do we have examples of other living creatures who turn up looking so mechanical as the Terrors do? I don't see how evolution is suggested here at all. They look like sculptures, Automatons, cyborgs.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

Tor wrote:Even assuming they all have good alignments, good alignments have never made people immune to dark purposes. A lot of NPCs in Palladium have done some dark dark things in spite of good alignments.

Which means they aren't really good, you can't do dark dark things and be good.

I would argue that Rurga being a Principled husband-killer and there being good-aligned CS soldiers en masse disputes this. Alignment clearly doesn't stop people from doing bad things, especially if they have warped views that dictate how the alignment is applied. Doc Feral who enslaves and experiments on TMNT-like creatures is Scrupulous, if I recall, yet probably does the same things as Desmond Bradford.

Improperly labeling someone as good when they aren't doesn't make them good people doing dark things, it makes them bad people who sometimes do good things. Feral is a prime example of someone who isn't good as he knowingly engages in torture and murder of sentient beings but tells himself it's okay because 'well they're just animals' yet has been false labeled as being good. Plenty of serial killers see other human beings as 'just animals' yet no one's going to successfully claim that because they were doing otherwise good things that they're actually good people doing bad things.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Stuff like that pops into existence all the time

When has something like a Holy Terror simply popped into existence? They reek of intelligent design. They don't look biological.

Just because you think that they must have been created by someone doesn't mean that they were, nor does not looking biological mean that they had to have been created by someone.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:there is no comparison with the Anti-Monsters because there's nothing to support the claim that they must be warriors, must have been created by someone else, or that anyone else is telling them what to do.

Their stats reflect that of warriors, not engineers or mages. Presumably someone else made them what they are, and could presumably be commanding the Terrors.

No, the stats of the ones we know about are warriors, that does not give any weight at all to any claims that they must all be warriors because those we've seen are. We also can't even remotely assume that someone else made them, absolutely nothing exists to support any such claims.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:the promptness of their effort to rush to Wormwood to defend it against evil goes against the idea that they have any sort of master ordering them around because they clearly acted of their own initiative and in droves.

I'm not sure it's clear that it was their initiative at all. One can defend something from evil only to deliver it unto another evil. The Nightlords vs. Vampires issue in Nightbane is a good example. Or CS versus Tolkeen in Rifts.

It's quite clear that the Holy Terrors rallied to rush to the aid of the citizens of Wormwood and nothing to support the idea that they're just out to deliver them to another form of evil. Literally nothing at all to support that and everything to contradict it.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Now see, you're resorting to a fallacy there. You're trying to argue that they must have a creator, without anything to support that position. There is no evidence to even remotely suggest that they were created by anyone

They don't bear a resemblance to biologically evolved entities. The closest equivalent I can think of to someone with inherent spellcasting abilities as they have would be Faerie Folk, and we are not clear on how they originated.

Given the range of biologically evolved things we see around that claim that they don't resemble biologically evolved entities just fails on its face. Rifts covers everything from flowers to eldritch abominations to dragons and demons, one can't even begin to claim something has to be built because it doesn't look naturally evolved.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:or that any non-Holy Terrors exist that they serve, and one cannot argue that 'well they must have been created by someone and they're probably still be around' because it's an argument that uses itself as 'proof', and that's not proof of anything.

Except I'm not arguing that this is a definite case, merely that it is a possibility I find likely.

Except what you provide as you rationale for 'likely' is deeply flawed and way more unlikely than likely.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:you refer to them as being 'obviously' shock troopers

"In a matter of minutes an army of holy terrors was sent to crush the demonic forces. More troops would have arrived..."

Sounds like shock troops to me.

Sent implies a sender. Who sent them? Other Holy Terrors? Or something else?

Sounds like doesn't mean is. Nothing exists to support the idea that they're shock troops or that someone other than a holy terror arranged to send the forces that were sent. Plus 'army' is often used to mean a cohesive group even when not speaking of an actual army, like 'an army of engineers went to work fixing the bridge'. They aren't soldiers or a military force yet referred to as an army.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:and that someone must have created them while drawing a flawed comparison between them and Anti-Monsters. Just because some things may have superficial similarities doesn't mean that they have anything really in common. What we have been told about Holy Terrors is limited, but it doesn't support the suggestions that anyone created them

Actually there is a lot of support for this suggestion and comparison:

"Many techno-wizards suspect they are some sort of magic robot .. Another theory is that they are the merging of man, machine and magic"

Sounds like a TW borg like the Anti-Monster to me.

What some techno-wizards suspects is meaningless and has no value whatsoever. They could suspect that they're suits of armor animated by the souls of the unjustly slain and it wouldn't have any more value than any other suspicion they might have. Being rank speculation one cannot consider it of any value.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:or that they're shock troopers or were created to be warriors by anyone.

When you're described as an army of troops, calling them warriors makes sense. 'Shock' just means you're the first wave sent in, doesn't it?

They're also called a 'self contained fighting machine'.

Fun note: just noticed they're called 'a creature of magic'. Kinda like Fairies...

Would make them more on the living side that exist naturally rather than created by anyone else.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote: It's just as likely if not moreso that they evolved naturally based on the nature of their world, just like so many other supernatural creatures and magical beings have. The multiverse seems to enjoy spontaneously creating things from microbes to the Old Ones.

Those all seem quite biological though. While alive, the Terrors have very mechanical attributes. I don't recall seeing this in other RCCs that evolved. The closest match I can think of are the Machine People (who were created) and some Mechanical Morphus Nightbane (whose shapes are created by the human unconscious).

Do we have examples of other living creatures who turn up looking so mechanical as the Terrors do? I don't see how evolution is suggested here at all. They look like sculptures, Automatons, cyborgs.

The Predator-like race seen in Heroes Unlimited looks mechanical but are alive and no suggestion is provided that they're anything but somehow naturally occurring. Plus again just because they look mechanical (which I don't think they do) doesn't mean that they are or that they aren't naturally evolved. There are mineral lifeforms running around that are natural no reason they couldn't look naturally armored or non-organic but mechanical on the surface while not actually being so.

Nightmask wrote:Improperly labeling someone as good when they aren't doesn't make them good people doing dark things, it makes them bad people who sometimes do good things. Feral is a prime example of someone who isn't good as he knowingly engages in torture and murder of sentient beings but tells himself it's okay because 'well they're just animals' yet has been false labeled as being good.

This isn't a matter of society falsely labelling him as good though, like what happens with Karl Prosek in spite of being Diabolic. Doc Feral is represented by a Scrupulous alignment (which is Good) by the game's rules. He just has 'twisted perceptions'. CS soldiers would be the same way, most likely.

Nightmask wrote:Plenty of serial killers see other human beings as 'just animals' yet no one's going to successfully claim that because they were doing otherwise good things that they're actually good people doing bad things.

You could definitely argue this, actually, so long as the character acted within the constraints of their alignment when it comes to those they view as sentient beings with rights. Feral does this with humans, but in spite of his awareness of the sentience of mutant animals (Otto Rattus being an assistant and friend) it doesn't change him to evil to enslave, kidnap or experiment to death on them.

Nightmask wrote:Stuff like that pops into existence all the time

Still waiting for an example of something like the Terrors popping up.

Nightmask wrote:

Tor wrote:They reek of intelligent design. They don't look biological.

Just because you think that they must have been created by someone doesn't mean that they were, nor does not looking biological mean that they had to have been created by someone.

I'm not concluding it must mean that, just that it seems like a very strong possibility. It seems like a more reasonable idea that something created these things.

The Old Ones intelligently designed a lot of races in the Megaverse right? I forget the entire list exactly but I imagine it was a lot of the impressive ones.

Nightmask wrote:the stats of the ones we know about are warriors, that does not give any weight at all to any claims that they must all be warriors because those we've seen are. We also can't even remotely assume that someone else made them, absolutely nothing exists to support any such claims.

I think there's a miscommunication, I'm only calling the ones we know of present on Wormwood as warriors. I'm open to the idea that some of the ones left behind (the ones who aren't shock troops sent through as the first wave to combat the Forces of Darkness) were not warriors. It may very well be that other members of this race have different abilities as scientists, wizards or support troops. Though one would assume that if there are any wizards left behind that they're having a tough time re-opening the Rift to Wormwood to get in touch with their lost brothers. I guess because it might be hard to trace back the portal. It's one thing for a Shifter to create a portal home (a reason if they had any, they should've sent some along) but a whole other to send a portal to your friends who have lost their way from home.

Nightmask wrote:It's quite clear that the Holy Terrors rallied to rush to the aid of the citizens of Wormwood and nothing to support the idea that they're just out to deliver them to another form of evil.

That's how it seems, but if you read too much Nightbane, you start suspecting angelic Guardians so you're naturally going to suspect these guys too. Even if 100% of the holy terrors (even the anarchist ones, all 200 of them) did come purely to save humans with no ulterior motives, we know nothing of the alignments and the motivations of those who had yet to come through the portal. There's probably over 5000 of them since Ralph the Destroyer (Merc87) says that the greater part of the army hadn't gotten through yet.

Nightmask wrote:Literally nothing at all to support that and everything to contradict it.

It's that sense of 'too good to be true'. It's not utterly contradictable, nothing is. Just look at that Toxic Cloud, that's a gruesome ability designed for mass biological warfare against living creatures.

Nightmask wrote:Given the range of biologically evolved things we see around that claim that they don't resemble biologically evolved entities just fails on its face. Rifts covers everything from flowers to eldritch abominations to dragons and demons, one can't even begin to claim something has to be built because it doesn't look naturally evolved.

I don't know why you're using flowers or dragons as examples, they bear similarities to grotesque forms of real things like dinosaurs and venus fly traps. Demons and deevils all have that organic look going on. What demon would you say is as artificial-looking as the Terrors?

I'd like to hear more about these eldritch abominations, because these all sound like very mammalian-type things. I'm not talking stuff like Prometheans, I'm talking stuff like maybe the Bhlaze from Skraypers or the Phantom from Phase World, but even those two don't look like they were bolted together, they look very much like energy entities creating basic humanoid forms to interact with humanoids. We need something very strange to equal the Terror for a fair comparison.

The closest thing I can actually find to a Terror at the moment is a Battle Saint from Wormwood itself. Makes you wonder if perhaps the reason the Shifter had such an easy time contacting them is if they may share a history with Wormwood? A dimension linked to Wormwood's in the way that the Nightlands are linked to Nightbane Earth?

Nightmask wrote:Except what you provide as you rationale for 'likely' is deeply flawed and way more unlikely than likely.

What's flawed about simply identifying that they don't look organic, that they look like a cyborg or a robot? The text itself says this and leads us to belief they could possibly be artificial beings or enhanced beings, either of which are not naturally evolved things. The idea that they evolved isn't suggested, so if that's the truth, we're led from it, not to it.

Nightmask wrote:Sounds like doesn't mean is. Nothing exists to support the idea that they're shock troops

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/shock_troop : A military formation created to lead an attack.

They were the first ones through the rift. They were leading the attack. They're troops. That makes them shock troops. Not sure the prob with the phrase.

Nightmask wrote:or that someone other than a holy terror arranged to send the forces that were sent.

If there existed any other type of being (even from the same race) in the society that the Terrors originate from, odds are that the less combat-oriented ones would not be the first ones sent into a war zone. It stands to reason that if other kinds of this race exist, that they didn't get through, and may have been involved in prepping the army or making the decision to send them. It says 'an army was sent'. If they were all equal, why send others when people could just go on the basis of volunteering?

Nightmask wrote:Plus 'army' is often used to mean a cohesive group even when not speaking of an actual army, like 'an army of engineers went to work fixing the bridge'. They aren't soldiers or a military force yet referred to as an army.

Perhaps but when they're called a 'liberation' army' composed of 'troops' who are 'fighting machines' that's a logical conclusion.

Nightmask wrote:What some techno-wizards suspects is meaningless and has no value whatsoever.

That's silly. Everything has meaning, and Techno-Wizards are folk with above-average intelligence and and mental stability, so their opinion has above-average value.

Nightmask wrote:They could suspect that they're suits of armor animated by the souls of the unjustly slain and it wouldn't have any more value than any other suspicion they might have. Being rank speculation one cannot consider it of any value.

Speculation is not without value, especially from those who are educated in a unique form of technology.

Nightmask wrote:

Fun note: just noticed they're called 'a creature of magic'. Kinda like Fairies...

Would make them more on the living side that exist naturally rather than created by anyone else.

We're not clear on the origins of fairies or dragons though (though it makes clear that the Old Ones did not create dragons like they created changelings/dwarves/elves). There is a deific power to create new species of beings though, to give them special magical abilities. That is a plausible origin of many creatures of magic or supernatural beings.

Nightmask wrote:The Predator-like race seen in Heroes Unlimited looks mechanical but are alive and no suggestion is provided that they're anything but somehow naturally occurring. Plus again just because they look mechanical (which I don't think they do) doesn't mean that they are or that they aren't naturally evolved. There are mineral lifeforms running around that are natural no reason they couldn't look naturally armored or non-organic but mechanical on the surface while not actually being so.

I don't have AU but I recall hearing about the race you're mentioning, would like to go look that up I guess. I suppose any alien species that had Bio-Armor or the like would be good examples, assuming it was permanent.

Even looking at things like the Kreeghor or the Tarlok they have that bio-look under all that plates, al armadillo-ish in the way I don't think Terrors are. Althoguh I gotta admit the closeup photo of Ralph in Mercs looks way more bio than the original Wormwood pics.

The whole mechanical argument is not to say that they oughtta be an artificial robot-like thing (though possible) but simlpy that they could be beings who have been enhanced with armor. We know that armor can be bonded to living beings via the Anti-Monster and the upgrades to the Cyber-Knights (also via TW) in SoT4. The Aehriman demonic power armors in Mercs or the strange constructions of Tolkeen also come to mind.

Gryphon wrote:nothing we have evidence makes me think they are anything save good guys of an impressive nature.

We know via the alignment stats that those who came through first were predominantly good (only 1 in 20 was anarchist, no evils). The speculation is more about the unknowns who were next in line to arrive. We don't know their alignments. We all know how the evils tend to hold back and let the goods do the fighting for them.

Gryphon wrote:It basically feels like someone converted several thousand Cyber Knight like people over to a form of Anti-Monster

Too good examples or organic-based techno-wizardry. I guess the TW Dragon Juicer might also apply? Not sure about the Murder Wratih.

Gryphon wrote:then sent them through to help those in need.

No doubt helping was on the minds of those who went through, but I worry about the long-term motives of those who may have follow after.

If we look at the Cathedral itself, it is full of predominantly good people, soldiers fighting demons on the front lines, with a small cadre of corrupt clergy seeded amongst the high priesthood. It is frightening to think of that existing amongst the Terrors' leadership.

Gryphon wrote:they have every right to expect the benefit of the doubt here, as they are selfless heroes facing the most dire of evils...sort of like Apoks actually.

Ah, but should Apoks, creatures who have committed such atrocities, really be given the benefit of the doubt? They're all of good alignment NOW, and their OCC ability allows them to resist the temptation to slide down to evil again, but nonetheless, they were there once...

Rurga is also a selfless hero who battles evil. Feral himself is very brave, he waded into the chaos of the Civil War to save humanity from the temporal threat of an employee who stole his technology. He risks the dangers of mutant animals to further science and benefit humanity. Yet the actions that fit within their moralities...

Ignoring the 'good alignment is no guarantee' dilemma, even if we give them the benefit of the doubt, this is not extended to the second wave that never came. Also the benefit of the doubt merely means that the Kingdom of Light allows them to fight, it doesn't mean it's a bad idea to keep a look out.

Just to make certain I understand, the point of this thread is to speculate on what hidden evil agendas might exist either amongst the holy terrors themselves or their hypothetical masters/creators?

Even though nothing of the sort is indicated by what's in the books?

I just want to make sure we're all on the same page because it looks like there's already a lot of baggage in this discussion carried over from some other thread.

--flatline

Why does everything have to be shades of gray?
Why can't Holy Terrors be the magical robotic boy scouts they were obviously meant to be?

Dr. Doom III wrote:Why does everything have to be shades of gray?
Why can't Holy Terrors be the magical robotic boy scouts they were obviously meant to be?

I don't see why some feel everything has to be grey or black either, it seems so cynical that evil gets to be absolute and incorruptible but good always gets depicted as weak and unable to stand firm and pure like evil can. I like seeing some staunch devotees to good around to demonstrate good is just as standfast as evil can be.

I'm with Nightmask on this one, the Holy terrors are "good" not just because of their alignment, but because of their actions. They (according to the book) ALL behave in the manner that is described as being "good", therefore they are good. Unless/ until one or more of them starts displaying evil intentions then they are and always will be good.
What their "origins" are was never described (and most likely never will be) and the random thoughts of some random Techno-Wizard (to claim that ALL Techno_wizards are of exceptional intellect, therefore their opinions MUST hold weight is a fallacy as your making a general assumption about the status and intellect of Tecno-Wizards) is of little importance. Yes, they COULD be the product of intelligent design, then again they COULD be the product of natural evolution, as for examples of strange beings "popping up" there are the Prometheans, a race of stone like beings who's origins are shrouded in mystery.
In the end the Holy Terrors are just whart they seem to be, warriors who fight for "good" by destroying that which is clearly "evil" (again according to the books).

Evil is rarely pure evil. Good is rarely pure good.

To act as if it is otherwise is an exercise in foolhardiness.

/Sub

Subjugator wrote:Evil is rarely pure evil. Good is rarely pure good.

To act as if it is otherwise is an exercise in foolhardiness.

/Sub

Unless of course it's fictional.

Dr. Doom III wrote:

Subjugator wrote:Evil is rarely pure evil. Good is rarely pure good.

To act as if it is otherwise is an exercise in foolhardiness.

/Sub

Unless of course it's fictional.

Hm. I'd say even in the scope of fiction it is rare. It's just not insanely rare like it is here. AFAIK, only one guy in modern times has fit the bill described by those who believe in only pure good, and that's Fred Rogers. Beyond him, almost all people have their bad days and act like jerks from time to time.

/Sub

Subjugator wrote:

Dr. Doom III wrote:

Subjugator wrote:Evil is rarely pure evil. Good is rarely pure good.

To act as if it is otherwise is an exercise in foolhardiness.

/Sub

Unless of course it's fictional.

Hm. I'd say even in the scope of fiction it is rare. It's just not insanely rare like it is here. AFAIK, only one guy in modern times has fit the bill described by those who believe in only pure good, and that's Fred Rogers. Beyond him, almost all people have their bad days and act like jerks from time to time.

/Sub

you mean this guy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDLkRPuNi5U

But the Pièce de résistance http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ic4mEc_6JQ8

Sorry Sub, I just had to

flatline wrote:the point of this thread is to speculate on what hidden evil agendas might exist either amongst the holy terrors themselves or their hypothetical masters/creators?

Yes. We do know some of the terrors were left behind and we don't know their alignments. The alignments given in the book are for the ones who came through and are on Wormwood.

flatline wrote:Even though nothing of the sort is indicated by what's in the books?

There are indications that the Holy Terrors are created. They look quite artificial. Smarter men than us (techno-wizards) surmise this.

Dr. Doom III wrote:Why can't Holy Terrors be the magical robotic boy scouts they were obviously meant to be?

Maybe cuz a bunch of them have anarchist alignments? That was only the first wave too.

AlexanderD wrote:why not let there be another hard coded good aligned heroic race

Maybe cuz they're not? There are selfish-aligned ones.

AlexanderD wrote:cosmoknights cant save the 3 galaxies alone after all, and even they can be evil

Cosmo-Knights can't be evil, if they deviate from principled or scrupulous (even if that means being taoist, also a good alignment) they become Fallen Knights.

AlexanderD wrote:maybe it was the cosmic forge, or one of the good gods who safeguard the old ones slumber that sent the holy terrors to save wormwood. it would make sense they would have a reserve of goodaligned striketroups clustered away to send aid to places needing it, as they are so wrapped up in the efforts of keeping the old ones under.

Books don't indicate that. Says a shifter made random contact and the Terrors decided to send troops themselves. If the forge did anything it would've been creation.

Nightmask wrote:I like seeing some staunch devotees to good around to demonstrate good is just as standfast as evil can be.

That's cool, but anyone can change alignment, even holy terrors. The alignments they come with are just the state of the union. Being too long in the Kingdom of Light with its corruption could change that. 1 in 20 are anarchist in the first wave, let's recall.

keir451 wrote:the Holy terrors are "good" not just because of their alignment, but because of their actions. They (according to the book) ALL behave in the manner that is described as being "good", therefore they are good. Unless/ until one or more of them starts displaying evil intentions then they are and always will be good.

That's simply not correct. You are not good until you display evil intentions (many evil creatures are quite careful to hide evil intentions). Alignment is inherent, and we already know there are selfish Terrors. We just don't know of any who have evil alignments who arrived on Wormwood... though there's nothing strictly forbidding that from existing or happening.

keir451 wrote:the random thoughts of some random Techno-Wizard (to claim that ALL Techno_wizards are of exceptional intellect, therefore their opinions MUST hold weight is a fallacy as your making a general assumption about the status and intellect of Tecno-Wizards)

Short of getting brain damage (which can reduce IQ), ALL Techno-wizards ARE of exceptional intellect. This is no fallacy. It is an accurate general assumption. The OCC has a requirement of 12 and the average of 3D6 is 10.5. Therefore to become a techno-wizard, you must have above-average intelligence (and mental endurance).

keir451 wrote:they COULD be the product of intelligent design, then again they COULD be the product of natural evolution

They don't look like something evolved. They look like something patched together. TWs (who are skilled at recognizing techno-wizardry) think this.

keir451 wrote:as for examples of strange beings "popping up" there are the Prometheans, a race of stone like beings who's origins are shrouded in mystery.

The prometheans merely have stone-like skin, like the Amaki Stone Men. They still have a very fleshlike biological look to them. Terrors look like a suit of armor, not evolved at all.

Even when we look at cases of evolved armors (kreeghor, tarlok) they have clear plate-like biological signatures which Terrors lack.

keir451 wrote:Holy Terrors are just whart they seem to be, warriors who fight for "good" by destroying that which is clearly "evil" (again according to the books).

Nope. Some (like Ralph) become mercenaries.

Subjugator wrote:only one guy in modern times has fit the bill described by those who believe in only pure good, and that's Fred Rogers. Beyond him, almost all people have their bad days and act like jerks from time to time.

I don't consider Fred Rogers to be a purely good person. =/

Tor wrote:

Subjugator wrote:only one guy in modern times has fit the bill described by those who believe in only pure good, and that's Fred Rogers. Beyond him, almost all people have their bad days and act like jerks from time to time.

I don't consider Fred Rogers to be a purely good person. =/

What about Jim Henson?

--flatline

Tor wrote:

flatline wrote:Even though nothing of the sort is indicated by what's in the books?

There are indications that the Holy Terrors are created. They look quite artificial. Smarter men than us (techno-wizards) surmise this.

Looks means absolutely nothing, and the unsupported opinions of a techno-wizard also mean absolutely nothing. 'Hey a Techno-wizard said they look artificial so they must be right!' is as meaningless as listening to what an astronomer has to say about the existence of alien life and how it might have evolved. Techno-wizards aren't xeno-biologists and just looking at something isn't going to make their opinion worth anything.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:I like seeing some staunch devotees to good around to demonstrate good is just as standfast as evil can be.

That's cool, but anyone can change alignment, even holy terrors. The alignments they come with are just the state of the union. Being too long in the Kingdom of Light with its corruption could change that. 1 in 20 are anarchist in the first wave, let's recall.

No some can't change alignments, Murder Wraiths for example. Nor can Apok's.

Tor wrote:

keir451 wrote:the Holy terrors are "good" not just because of their alignment, but because of their actions. They (according to the book) ALL behave in the manner that is described as being "good", therefore they are good. Unless/ until one or more of them starts displaying evil intentions then they are and always will be good.

That's simply not correct. You are not good until you display evil intentions (many evil creatures are quite careful to hide evil intentions). Alignment is inherent, and we already know there are selfish Terrors. We just don't know of any who have evil alignments who arrived on Wormwood... though there's nothing strictly forbidding that from existing or happening.

Other than no indication in the breakdown that evil Holy Terrors exist or can exist.

Tor wrote:

keir451 wrote:the random thoughts of some random Techno-Wizard (to claim that ALL Techno_wizards are of exceptional intellect, therefore their opinions MUST hold weight is a fallacy as your making a general assumption about the status and intellect of Tecno-Wizards)

Short of getting brain damage (which can reduce IQ), ALL Techno-wizards ARE of exceptional intellect. This is no fallacy. It is an accurate general assumption. The OCC has a requirement of 12 and the average of 3D6 is 10.5. Therefore to become a techno-wizard, you must have above-average intelligence (and mental endurance).

Which in no way shape or form makes some random speculation on their part even remotely valid, just having a high IQ means nothing. Sheldon Cooper on Big Bang Theory has a high IQ but frequently can't comprehend or figure out otherwise simple and basic things due to his obsessions and focus. Techno-Wizards are quite ignorant of many things because of their focus, they lack the background to make any kind of informed opinion regarding Holy Terrors particularly since they're just going 'well I walked by a Holy Terror the other day and looked him over' rather than any kind of actual exam (which a Holy Terror won't allow).

Tor wrote:

keir451 wrote:they COULD be the product of intelligent design, then again they COULD be the product of natural evolution

They don't look like something evolved. They look like something patched together. TWs (who are skilled at recognizing techno-wizardry) think this.

The platypus doesn't look like something evolved either and instead like something patched together, yet it is. It's a completely wild speculation treated as if it had merit to jump from 'they don't look evolved' to 'oh well they're TW-constructs because some random TW thought they look constructed'.

Tor wrote:

keir451 wrote:as for examples of strange beings "popping up" there are the Prometheans, a race of stone like beings who's origins are shrouded in mystery.

The prometheans merely have stone-like skin, like the Amaki Stone Men. They still have a very fleshlike biological look to them. Terrors look like a suit of armor, not evolved at all.

Even when we look at cases of evolved armors (kreeghor, tarlok) they have clear plate-like biological signatures which Terrors lack.

Which again doesn't mean anything really, we're talking a game multiverse that allows for living rock creatures, Holy Terrors are as likely to be evolved naturally as pretty much everything else that we see that would otherwise be impossible from RL understandings of evolution and life.

Tor wrote:

keir451 wrote:Holy Terrors are just whart they seem to be, warriors who fight for "good" by destroying that which is clearly "evil" (again according to the books).

Nope. Some (like Ralph) become mercenaries.

At no point does being a mercenary require one to stop fighting evil or fighting for good, mercenaries are often called in to help the innocent who can't help themselves.

Tor wrote:I don't consider Fred Rogers to be a purely good person. =/

Did he do that's bad? Please tell me you aren't going to pull out the urban legends about his military experience.

/Sub

flatline wrote:What about Jim Henson?

Nope.

Subjugator wrote:Did he do that's bad? Please tell me you aren't going to pull out the urban legends about his military experience.

No it's just I don't think the lack of knowing misdeeds to attribute to someone means they're all good. Odds are such people did bad things which we just don't know about. Consider it a default low view of humanity

Nightmask wrote:Looks means absolutely nothing

Looks mean a lot. Prior to analyzing DNA, comparing the appearance of fossils was a big part of evolutionary biological theories.

Nightmask wrote:the unsupported opinions of a techno-wizard also mean absolutely nothing.

They mean something, otherwise they wouldn't be prominently mentioned in the introduction of the RCC. If they had equal weight to random rumors "oooh they're the spawned Hordes of Dyval" you'd hear from some vagabond loser, they would be shuffled off with them.

Techno-wizards are intelligent and respected professionals and their opinions hold weight. They are supported by their knowledge of magical technologies.

Nightmask wrote:'Hey a Techno-wizard said they look artificial so they must be right!'

I didn't say 'must'. I'm saying this 'may' is supported by the testimonies of professionals who are known to create on occasion (Anti-Monsters in South America, Cyber-Knights in North America) magical cybernetics.

Nightmask wrote:as meaningless as listening to what an astronomer has to say about the existence of alien life and how it might have evolved.

Astronomer's input is actually valuable when discussing the potential evolution of life on other planets. By analyzing the kinds of light that stars emit, astronomers (or perhaps we should say physicists?) can estimate the elemental composition of that star, and by extension, estimate the elements present in its solar system, and biologists and chemists can then estimate likelihood of life based on whether or not adequate elements are present for organic life, or potentially some other basis.

Nightmask wrote:Techno-wizards aren't xeno-biologists and just looking at something isn't going to make their opinion worth anything.

I didn't say they were xeno-biologists. Techno-wizards have an eye for techno-wizardry and the Terrors may be something similar to it. They are potentially mystic cyborgs like the anti-monster, it makes this very clear. It can't be classed as random speculation because these theories are given more prominence over other theories.

Nightmask wrote:No some can't change alignments

Those who can't make this clear though, and the Holy Terror mentions no such disclaimer.

Nightmask wrote:Murder Wraiths for example.

They can at minimum change between Miscreant and Diabolic. The 90/10 stat I see reflects the initial requirements of becoming a Wraith, and the composition of NPCs at the time of the Uprising. The class doesn't explicitly say the alignment can never change, so I think eventually we may see an Aberrent or Anarchist one out there some day.

Nightmask wrote:Nor can Apok's.

I don't see anything forbidding Apok's from changing. The 40/60 statistic only reflects the current composition of NPCs, it doesn't inherently forbid NPCs (or PCs) from changing alignments.

We know that initial class alignment restrictions do not permanently limit a class. Wormspeakers say 'any except evil' for example, yet pg 154 on Demon Camp mentions there being an evil Wormspeaker. If there can be evil wormspeakers, there can be evil Apoks.

Nightmask wrote:Other than no indication in the breakdown that evil Holy Terrors exist or can exist.

A lack of indication doesn't mean it's impossible. The assumption should be that unless it says something can never change to evil alignment, that they can.

Whatever we might assume about racial resistance to alignment shifts: are they all immune to Azlum?

Nightmask wrote:Which in no way shape or form makes some random speculation on their part even remotely valid, just having a high IQ means nothing.

You call it random speculation, I call it an educated assessment. These are not merely people with high IQs and willpower, but also trained experts in magic and technology and their merger.

Nightmask wrote:Sheldon Cooper on Big Bang Theory has a high IQ but frequently can't comprehend or figure out otherwise simple and basic things due to his obsessions and focus.

These are not simple or basic things, this is something that looks like a magical cyborg or robot, and magic-tech mergers are a TW's expertise.

Nightmask wrote:Techno-Wizards are quite ignorant of many things because of their focus, they lack the background to make any kind of informed opinion regarding Holy Terrors

Incorrect, TWs are informed about magic and technology, not only can all mages form informed opinions about Terrors, but TWs are especially qualified.

Nightmask wrote:particularly since they're just going 'well I walked by a Holy Terror the other day and looked him over' rather than any kind of actual exam (which a Holy Terror won't allow).

This seems like exaggeration on your part. Terrors and TWs can end up spending a lot of time together. A Freelance Monster Hunter Squad (Seek and Destroy) on pg 77 can include a techno-wizard and a pair of Holy Terrors. Becoming blood bros fighting monsters together could eventually allow enough trust to be built up for the Terrors to potentially let the TW take a close look (or for him to sneak one).

While it does say they never take off their armor, where does it say they won't allow themselves to be examined?

Nightmask wrote:The platypus doesn't look like something evolved either and instead like something patched together, yet it is.

The platypus, if you don't accept that it looks evolved from earlier forms (I'm sure they can establish a gradual progression which makes the evolution apparent) still looks like pieces of organic forms. The platypus doesn't look like a suit of platemail, so this is not a good example.

Nightmask wrote:It's a completely wild speculation treated as if it had merit to jump from 'they don't look evolved' to 'oh well they're TW-constructs because some random TW thought they look constructed'.

I never said they were TW constructs. I'm saying that this is strongly indicated by the text, because many TWs think they're either TW robots or TW cyborgs.

Please don't word this in the affirmative, I am not claiming what the Terrors are, just stating what they have an overwhelming likelihood of being based on the description and based on the picture.

Nightmask wrote:we're talking a game multiverse that allows for living rock creatures

Are you referring to Elementals? Even elementals just look like random clumps of earth. Not welded and sculpted armor.

Nightmask wrote:Holy Terrors are as likely to be evolved naturally as pretty much everything else that we see that would otherwise be impossible from RL understandings of evolution and life.

Can you give some examples of what you mean? Even including dragons and AIs I can't think of anything as oddly inorganic and unlikely of being evolved as the Terrors.

Nightmask wrote:At no point does being a mercenary require one to stop fighting evil or fighting for good, mercenaries are often called in to help the innocent who can't help themselves.

Yet they are mercenaries, which primarily means you fight for money. Holy Terrors presumably don't have many expenses (do they even need to eat?) and Rifts Earth has plenty of crusades against evil to join. Surely Ralph has come across them while serving on his team, yet he presumably fights for credits instead of... say... to evacuate survivors of the Tolkeen war.

Well the 'mercenary' in question works for. wait for it.....a group of GOOD guys, under the comand of a KNOWN hero and savior of the innocent....

How about the mechanical life in the Dimension book. living robotic birds and lizards....from a world where all the life is living machines....thats pretty....out there.
How about Phantoms (living light?)

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Looks means absolutely nothing

Looks mean a lot. Prior to analyzing DNA, comparing the appearance of fossils was a big part of evolutionary biological theories.

Again looks mean nothing. They aren't doing an actual examination of a Holy Terror just going 'hey that looks like it might be a construct', which means nothing. Angar power armor and robots look like technology but are actually living demons morphed to look like power armor and robots, so appearances mean nothing.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:the unsupported opinions of a techno-wizard also mean absolutely nothing.

They mean something, otherwise they wouldn't be prominently mentioned in the introduction of the RCC. If they had equal weight to random rumors "oooh they're the spawned Hordes of Dyval" you'd hear from some vagabond loser, they would be shuffled off with them.

Techno-wizards are intelligent and respected professionals and their opinions hold weight. They are supported by their knowledge of magical technologies.

Which again means nothing, being intelligent and knowing about how to make Techno-Wizard constructs gives no weight to random speculations on their part as to whether something they saw is or isn't a magical construct.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:'Hey a Techno-wizard said they look artificial so they must be right!'

I didn't say 'must'. I'm saying this 'may' is supported by the testimonies of professionals who are known to create on occasion (Anti-Monsters in South America, Cyber-Knights in North America) magical cybernetics.

We don't know who creates the armor for Cyber-Knights (given they're a psionic class would be more likely to be a gizmoteer rather than TW making their bio-armor), Techno-Wizards can't make anti-monsters (it's explicitly noted to be impossible for a standard TW to be able to make one and even the Splugorth can't figure them out), and again Techno-Wizards aren't educated in xeno-biology and can no more determine something is actually a living being or race by looking at it than anyone else can. Since they never allow themselves to be examined random speculation from some random TW is worthless.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:as meaningless as listening to what an astronomer has to say about the existence of alien life and how it might have evolved.

Astronomer's input is actually valuable when discussing the potential evolution of life on other planets. By analyzing the kinds of light that stars emit, astronomers (or perhaps we should say physicists?) can estimate the elemental composition of that star, and by extension, estimate the elements present in its solar system, and biologists and chemists can then estimate likelihood of life based on whether or not adequate elements are present for organic life, or potentially some other basis.

Again, an Astronomer's without the background to have any say about the existence of alien life or how it might evolve, it takes a completely separate educational background to have an opinion on those things that's worth listening to.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Techno-wizards aren't xeno-biologists and just looking at something isn't going to make their opinion worth anything.

I didn't say they were xeno-biologists. Techno-wizards have an eye for techno-wizardry and the Terrors may be something similar to it. They are potentially mystic cyborgs like the anti-monster, it makes this very clear. It can't be classed as random speculation because these theories are given more prominence over other theories.

No, they aren't, those random speculations aren't given any weight at all over any other theories.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Murder Wraiths for example.

They can at minimum change between Miscreant and Diabolic. The 90/10 stat I see reflects the initial requirements of becoming a Wraith, and the composition of NPCs at the time of the Uprising. The class doesn't explicitly say the alignment can never change, so I think eventually we may see an Aberrent or Anarchist one out there some day.

Only in some house-ruled game, Murder Wraiths are complete monsters, their entire existence requires being a complete monster to become one. They aren't ever going to undergo any kind of enlightenment or shift from being thoroughly and utterly evil.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Nor can Apok's.

I don't see anything forbidding Apok's from changing. The 40/60 statistic only reflects the current composition of NPCs, it doesn't inherently forbid NPCs (or PCs) from changing alignments.

We know that initial class alignment restrictions do not permanently limit a class. Wormspeakers say 'any except evil' for example, yet pg 154 on Demon Camp mentions there being an evil Wormspeaker. If there can be evil wormspeakers, there can be evil Apoks.

You need to reread the Apok OCC, they're 100% committed to opposing evil in all its forms, even becoming an Apok required they start as thoroughly evil sorts who chose to reject their past life of evil utterly and completely. They can't be anything but good.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Which in no way shape or form makes some random speculation on their part even remotely valid, just having a high IQ means nothing.

You call it random speculation, I call it an educated assessment. These are not merely people with high IQs and willpower, but also trained experts in magic and technology and their merger.

Except it's not an educated assessment, an educated assessment actually requires you to ASSESS something of which just looking at it is NOT an educated assessment that's a random speculation. Much like 'if all you have is a hammer' if all you are is a Techno-Wizard you're going to look around and see everything in terms of techno-wizardry no matter how wrong you actually are.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Sheldon Cooper on Big Bang Theory has a high IQ but frequently can't comprehend or figure out otherwise simple and basic things due to his obsessions and focus.

These are not simple or basic things, this is something that looks like a magical cyborg or robot, and magic-tech mergers are a TW's expertise.

Right, it LOOKS like, and all the TW has is LOOKS which are worthless. A thousand techno-wizards can look at the android 'son' ARCHIE-3 created and they'll all think he not only looks but is human like everyone else does because looks are worthless.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Techno-Wizards are quite ignorant of many things because of their focus, they lack the background to make any kind of informed opinion regarding Holy Terrors

Incorrect, TWs are informed about magic and technology, not only can all mages form informed opinions about Terrors, but TWs are especially qualified.

Your problem here is you keep operating under the underlying belief that Holy Terrors are magical constructs therefor that makes Techno-Wizards experts to understand them when that underlying belief is purely your opinion and not even close to being valid in the books. It's a fallacy that assumes the answer in the question, since no proof exists that Holy Terrors are magical constructs then some Techno-wizard's opinion based on just seeing something is a worthless opinion because he has nothing to base it on other than looking and that's completely inadequate to qualify as an informed opinion.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:particularly since they're just going 'well I walked by a Holy Terror the other day and looked him over' rather than any kind of actual exam (which a Holy Terror won't allow).

This seems like exaggeration on your part. Terrors and TWs can end up spending a lot of time together. A Freelance Monster Hunter Squad (Seek and Destroy) on pg 77 can include a techno-wizard and a pair of Holy Terrors. Becoming blood bros fighting monsters together could eventually allow enough trust to be built up for the Terrors to potentially let the TW take a close look (or for him to sneak one).

While it does say they never take off their armor, where does it say they won't allow themselves to be examined?

Right in the books regarding Holy Terrors, they never speak of their homeworld and never answer questions about their origins and never let anyone examine them. No reason is given as to why but they simply won't give up their true nature to anyone.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:The platypus doesn't look like something evolved either and instead like something patched together, yet it is.

The platypus, if you don't accept that it looks evolved from earlier forms (I'm sure they can establish a gradual progression which makes the evolution apparent) still looks like pieces of organic forms. The platypus doesn't look like a suit of platemail, so this is not a good example.

Yes it is, you're just trying to move the goalposts because you don't like the answer invalidating your claims. When the first platypus was sent in it was dismissed as an 'obvious' hoax because it looked like it was assembled from a range of animals and biologists at the time were sure such a creature couldn't really exist. It took quite a bit of effort to eventually get them accepted as alive. Given the megaverse has a range of living creatures that are inorganic or look like living armors or plate mail by the biology of the setting the idea of Holy Terrors being a naturally occurring lifeform is completely within the context of the setting.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:It's a completely wild speculation treated as if it had merit to jump from 'they don't look evolved' to 'oh well they're TW-constructs because some random TW thought they look constructed'.

I never said they were TW constructs. I'm saying that this is strongly indicated by the text, because many TWs think they're either TW robots or TW cyborgs.

Please don't word this in the affirmative, I am not claiming what the Terrors are, just stating what they have an overwhelming likelihood of being based on the description and based on the picture.

No, it's not 'strongly indicated' in the text, 'some techno-wizards think they might be constructs' isn't a strong indicator of anything other than everyone's got an opinion and no one has anything to back it up. Because 'I saw a Holy Terror and it looked like a construct' isn't worth the breath it took to speak it, it has nothing to make that opinion have more value than anyone else's because being smart and trained in techno-magic doesn't make their opinion of something they've never examined worth more than anyone else's opinion.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:we're talking a game multiverse that allows for living rock creatures

Are you referring to Elementals? Even elementals just look like random clumps of earth. Not welded and sculpted armor.

Nothing about Holy Terrors say that they look like welded and scupted armor (since welding implies being constructed), and you can't go 'well earth elementals look like raw earth and that's how other non-organic creatures would look too', that race of living armor-like creatures that parasitically take over other living beings looks like sculpted armor but is very much alive. There's nothing but your own bias looking to spin it that Holy Terrors are constructs that seeks to dismiss the idea that they're naturally occurring beings by playing up some things as being less likely than they really are.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Holy Terrors are as likely to be evolved naturally as pretty much everything else that we see that would otherwise be impossible from RL understandings of evolution and life.

Can you give some examples of what you mean? Even including dragons and AIs I can't think of anything as oddly inorganic and unlikely of being evolved as the Terrors.

See you keep changing the goalposts and setting requirements as restrictive as possible to make it look as if something can't be as likely as it actually is. Your requirements are geared towards excluding Holy Terrors as being naturally developed (you express your personal bias with the 'unlikely of being evolved' line), which just supports the impression that you've determined that they have to be created rather than natural and so skew everything towards that position. It's why you over-inflate the worth of the opinions of some techno-wizards and try to make it out that in spite of the vast range of creatures in Rifts and the megaverse in general that somehow living creatures that look like armor somehow can't exist while accepting all the even crazier things (including eldritch abominations) as being just fine.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:At no point does being a mercenary require one to stop fighting evil or fighting for good, mercenaries are often called in to help the innocent who can't help themselves.

Yet they are mercenaries, which primarily means you fight for money. Holy Terrors presumably don't have many expenses (do they even need to eat?) and Rifts Earth has plenty of crusades against evil to join. Surely Ralph has come across them while serving on his team, yet he presumably fights for credits instead of... say... to evacuate survivors of the Tolkeen war.

No, mercenaries can fight for causes, and obviously you can't keep fighting for causes if you don't earn an income to support your troops. The average mercenary isn't lucky enough to be like Superman or Batman being vastly wealthy (Batman) or having everyone tossing stuff your way as gifts as well as inheriting a vast range of useful technology (Superman), most have to actually say 'hey look buddy I want to help your town out but I have to eat too so I really need something to help keep me going'.

Nightmask wrote:

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:At no point does being a mercenary require one to stop fighting evil or fighting for good, mercenaries are often called in to help the innocent who can't help themselves.

Yet they are mercenaries, which primarily means you fight for money. Holy Terrors presumably don't have many expenses (do they even need to eat?) and Rifts Earth has plenty of crusades against evil to join. Surely Ralph has come across them while serving on his team, yet he presumably fights for credits instead of... say... to evacuate survivors of the Tolkeen war.

No, mercenaries can fight for causes, and obviously you can't keep fighting for causes if you don't earn an income to support your troops. The average mercenary isn't lucky enough to be like Superman or Batman being vastly wealthy (Batman) or having everyone tossing stuff your way as gifts as well as inheriting a vast range of useful technology (Superman), most have to actually say 'hey look buddy I want to help your town out but I have to eat too so I really need something to help keep me going'.

Rifts' Mercenaries Page 87: "Although he realizes these warriors are not dedicated to fighting Evil, he has become good friends with several of them and enjoys their company. As long as the army continues to choose worthy clients and regularly fights evil, he will stay."

That's pretty much an explicit statement that his continued service with the Brigade is partly based on the fact that they're generally good guys, and partly out of loyalty to those who have become his friends. The implication then is that if the Brigade weren't as good as they were (and if he hadn't befriended so many of them already), Ralph would've left them for a group more dedicated to the cause of Good.

eliakon wrote:Well the 'mercenary' in question works for. wait for it.....a group of GOOD guys, under the comand of a KNOWN hero and savior of the innocent....

Lotsa pro-Larsen bias in dis thread. Here we have a guy known for abdicating his sworn duties and violating the chain of command.

Let's keep in mind that guy employs (and likes, and respects) an evil Juicer with no qualms about murder or torture. He also consorts with alien invaders (dragons and gargoyles), humans who dangerously try to master the chaotic and unstable mystic arcs (LLWs, mystics), people who link themselves to alien intelligences (warlocks), minions of the Splugorth (Kittani), races known to be disposed to evil (orcs, trolls, goblins) and those known to have a link to the Old Ones themselves (minotaurs).

Sorry if I don't trust this guy so implicitly =/

eliakon wrote:How about the mechanical life in the Dimension book. living robotic birds and lizards....from a world where all the life is living machines....thats pretty....out there.

Doesn't ring a bell, which Dimension Book? Might not have this one. Sounds interesting. Would like to read about it. Does it say that the world of living machines evolved, or could it have possibly been designed like the Machine People were?

eliakon wrote:How about Phantoms (living light?)

Sentient lightforms who can build bodies (the Bhlaze are similar to the Phantoms in this) still don't have that 'designed' look.

Entries on the Terrors talk about them looking like robots or suits of armor. With people who design magical suits of armor and robots (TWs) saying they think that's what they are. So it's heavily implied they did not evolve, as they don't appear to be like other things who don't have design-exclusive elements.

Nightmask wrote:Again looks mean nothing.

That you keep saying this doesn't make it true. Looks mean a huge deal.

Nightmask wrote:They aren't doing an actual examination of a Holy Terror just going 'hey that looks like it might be a construct', which means nothing.

You don't know how thorough an examination those TWs did. Furthermore: visual examining is still a form of examination.

Nightmask wrote:Angar power armor and robots look like technology but are actually living demons morphed to look like power armor and robots, so appearances mean nothing.

Your logic doesn't hold up here. The Angar technology, while based on biological components, was DESIGNED by Ahriman and his minions. It did not naturally evolve this way. Demons were forced into that shape. Your example supports my argument, the Angar did not evolve, they were constructed intelligently.

Nightmask wrote:being intelligent and knowing about how to make Techno-Wizard constructs gives no weight to random speculations on their part as to whether something they saw is or isn't a magical construct.

Your phrasing insists that the speculation by TWs is 'random' but you don't have evidence to support that. I would argue that there is no such thing as random speculation, and that compared to laymen (such as us) a TW is in a better position to speculate on the potential of an unknown thing being a magical robot or cyborg, since TWs have actually designed such things.

Nightmask wrote:We don't know who creates the armor for Cyber-Knights (given they're a psionic class would be more likely to be a gizmoteer rather than TW making their bio-armor)

Actually we do. This should have been more prominently mentioned in the OCC description of the living armor ability at level 4, but it is present in SoT4 on pg 21: "When a Techno-Wizard introduced the process of fusing bits of Mega-Damage armor to the human body (made possible only through years of Cyber-Knight training) the final piece fell into place and the Cyber-Knights were born."

I think the way that was written wasn't ideal ("fusing bits of Mega-Damage armor to the human body" describes the basic cybernetic implant that anyone can get, and was introduced by Cyber-Docs, not TWs) I think it's made clear that the 'living armor' upgrade of the cybernetic implant is TW-based.

Nightmask wrote:Techno-Wizards can't make anti-monsters (it's explicitly noted to be impossible for a standard TW to be able to make one and even the Splugorth can't figure them out)

WB6pg34 "a creation of advanced trans-dimensional techno-wizardry" does imply that TWs can make them. That standard TWs can't is irrelevant. Most newbie PC chars are going to lack knowledge of certain things, but that doesn't mean it's impossible for them to learn how. Most Cyber-Docs are going to lack Desmond Bradford or Angel's ability to bio-engineer new species of life or create psynetic implants, but that also is not impossible if they gain that knowledge.

Keep in mind that I'm not arguing that these TWs could build a holy terror (or an anti-monster) but merely that they could recognize TWishness to it. Clearly the Splugorth (who have lots of TWs on staff... recent additions I guess, since apparently it was invented on Rifts Earth, right?) recognize some TW (or maybe bio-wizardry) aspects to anti-monsters, they just lack the specific design schematics and can't replicate them.

It's the same reason why operators with CS or Naruni Enterprise schematics could eventually produce such weaponry, but since they lack the data and facilities, can't by default.

Nightmask wrote:Techno-Wizards aren't educated in xeno-biology and can no more determine something is actually a living being or race by looking at it than anyone else can.

You don't need to be educated in xenobiology to call a car a car and not a robot in disguise.

Also the argument is not that the Holy Terrors aren't alive (they clearly ARE alive) but whether or not they are a created being or an evolved being. I and the TWs are arguing that their armor-like design belies a creator.

Nightmask wrote:Since they never allow themselves to be examined

Where are you getting this? Ralph says he doesn't let people examine him. That doesn't mean all Holy Terrors do. Tell me where it says all the Terrors forbid examinations. Not to mention: the Unholy's forces probably have some TWs on staff and have probably captured a Terror or two, so they may have examined them without consent.

The assumption that TWs are making random speculations is groundless. Even visual examination is valid (even a peasant could tell you they look like armor and not evolved plating) and TWs probably aren't just jumping to conclusions.

Nightmask wrote:random speculation from some random TW is worthless.

More 'random' assumptions and minimalization of TW credentials which eclipse our own.

Nightmask wrote:an Astronomer's without the background to have any say about the existence of alien life or how it might evolve, it takes a completely separate educational background to have an opinion on those things that's worth listening to.

Physics and biology are important considerations here, but astronomy is also part of that discussion.

You seem to think that a TW would need special knowledge on how something like a Holy Terror might evolve on its own (something not even established) to discount that possibility though. Rather than the obvious: we know things like Holy Terrors have been built by Techno-Wizardry (the Anti-Monster) or Bio-Wizardry (Rune Statues). If a TW speculates something has TW elements, that is a worthwhile observation. A lack of knowledge to prove something we don't even know can be true disqualifies nothing here.

Nightmask wrote:those random speculations aren't given any weight at all over any other theories.

Oh? Then why aren't other sources of speculation besides TWs mentioned? That they're mentioned prominently in the RCC description is 'weight' to me.

Nightmask wrote:

Tor wrote:They can at minimum change between Miscreant and Diabolic. The 90/10 stat I see reflects the initial requirements of becoming a Wraith, and the composition of NPCs at the time of the Uprising. The class doesn't explicitly say the alignment can never change, so I think eventually we may see an Aberrent or Anarchist one out there some day.

Only in some house-ruled game

Why do you think it requires house rules to have an Aberrent Murder Wraith?

Nightmask wrote:Murder Wraiths are complete monsters, their entire existence requires being a complete monster to become one.

No, it doesn't. They're just PPE vampires who need to eat living flesh. PPE and flesh can come back with time. If a Wraith had a means of healing those they fed upon, that's a moot consideration. They need to inflict pain to feed, which has a chance of inflicting insanity upon those they feed upon. A Wraith could potentially choose volunteers, perhaps people who are resistant to insanity (high save bonuses), perhaps masochists who enjoy pain and would relish the procedure. Someone willing to pay the costs for a greater good, such as how a Wraith may protect their town from danger.

Wraiths could also choose to feed upon those who are evil and who might otherwise be executed. Being chosen as Wraith-food might be a stay of execution for a condemned criminal, which is for their own good.

Nightmask wrote:They aren't ever going to undergo any kind of enlightenment or shift from being thoroughly and utterly evil.

Why not? What forbids this? If it could happen, it'd be rare, but I don't see anything forbidding this.

Nightmask wrote:You need to reread the Apok OCC, they're 100% committed to opposing evil in all its forms, even becoming an Apok required they start as thoroughly evil sorts who chose to reject their past life of evil utterly and completely.

The part about 100% dedication relates to the moment of becoming an Apok. It doesn't say anything about this 100% being fixed for the rest of their life. Cosmo-Knights and Wormspeakers also require this dedication and good alignment, but they can fall, so why not the Apoks?

Nightmask wrote:They can't be anything but good.

Why not? The Apoks are described as having "stared into the blackness of his own soul and potential for evil". Nothing is said about this potential going away. The very source of an Apok's power is being reminded of his own capacity for evil. So I'd argue that they must be able to return to evil. What makes an Apok is not an inability to become evil, but rather a choice not to.

Nightmask wrote:it's not an educated assessment, an educated assessment actually requires you to ASSESS something of which just looking at it is NOT an educated assessment that's a random speculation.

TWs are educated. Looking IS a way to assess. The issue being assessed is if Terrors may have TW origins. Thus it IS an educated assessment. It says "many TWs suspect". You seem to be implying that TWs just randomly suspect things.

Nightmask wrote:Much like 'if all you have is a hammer' if all you are is a Techno-Wizard you're going to look around and see everything in terms of techno-wizardry no matter how wrong you actually are.

Implying the TWs are wrong (based on what?).

Also, TWs don't necessarily think it's TW, but possibly related things. Arguably things like rune magic are related to Techno-Wizardry (though moreso to Bio-Wizardry). All Lizard TWs (save K'zaa) knowing the secrets of rune magic illustrates that. TW speculation is "some sort of magic robot" and "may not be human or even alive" and "merging of man, machine and magic".

Nightmask wrote:it LOOKS like, and all the TW has is LOOKS which are worthless.

1. you assume TW suspicions are founded solely on looks, without evidence.
2. you call looks worthless, when judging things by appearance is NOT worthless, rather it is a part of established technological and biological assessments.

Nightmask wrote:A thousand techno-wizards can look at the android 'son' ARCHIE-3 created and they'll all think he not only looks but is human like everyone else does because looks are worthless.

You're using an example of a technological construct mimicing an evolved being as evidence that an evolved being's fixed default form would mimic a technological construct? That's quite flipped around, no? I mean, I'm not disputing that some shapeshifters (Amorphs for example) can consciously mimic technological objects, but that is a form of intelligent design because a mind (the Amorph) is constructing the form out of ectoplasm. While the Amorph may have evolved, their choice of form did not.

Nightmask wrote:you keep operating under the underlying belief that Holy Terrors are magical constructs

I don't think I am, I'm considering it a possibility and a possibility which is implied.

Nightmask wrote:therefor that makes Techno-Wizards experts to understand them

No, I'm saying that TWs are experts at noticing the signs of techno-wizardry. Any layman can see that the Terror looks like a designed suit of armor though. They lack the organic Je ne cai quois. I continue to welcome you to present any other being in the Megaverse as obviously as mechanical-looking as these guys who are implied to have evolved that way.

Nightmask wrote:that underlying belief is purely your opinion and not even close to being valid in the books.

It's not purely my opinion: it's the opinion of many Techno-wizards. I'm sharing their opinion. It doesn't originate with me. It's also very close to being valid, because it's the most reasonable explanation we have for why they are the way they are.

Nightmask wrote:It's a fallacy that assumes the answer in the question

I don't see how that could be. Isn't assuming you need to be a xenobiologist to disprove as having evolved more of a fallacy? Proving negatives is pretty hard. Can you prove that computers did not evolve? Or rather, would you make an argument for the greater likelihood that they show evidence of having been built?

Nightmask wrote:no proof exists that Holy Terrors are magical constructs

I never claimed there was proof. But it's very clear: "what looks to be artificial armor". These beings look artificial. Indeed these artificial parts are alive, but we know full well that artificial things can be made alive (rune statues, Dweomer Automatons, god minion races) so that doesn't disqualify design.

Nightmask wrote:some Techno-wizard's opinion based on just seeing something

"TWs suspect" doesn't mean "suspect just based on seeing". We don't know what the assessment is based on. So we shouldn't be insisting either way that it's based purely on sight or that a friendly Terror let a TW ally pull them apart and check out their specs.

Nightmask wrote:is a worthless opinion because he has nothing to base it on other than looking and that's completely inadequate to qualify as an informed opinion.

I'd strongly appreciate it if you'd stop with the whole 'based on looking' thing. We don't know.

Nightmask wrote:Right in the books regarding Holy Terrors, they never:
1. speak of their homeworld
2. answer questions about their origins
3. let anyone examine them.

Where does it say this? Keep in mind we're talking about all of them and not Ralph. I'm reading the RCC over and over and not finding this. Is it written somewhere else in Wormwood besides pgs66-68? Any quotes?

Nightmask wrote:you're just trying to move the goalposts because you don't like the answer invalidating your claims.

I don't see how it invalidates them. Having traits of various species (when theories about the evolution of life usually imply that all species on Earth have common ancestors) hardly disqualifies design. The Holy Terror does not have the traits of various evolved species: they have the traits of platemail, robots, spiked armor, mechanical claws, hinge joints, knee pads, rivets and belts.

Nightmask wrote:When the first platypus was sent in it was dismissed as an 'obvious' hoax because it looked like it was assembled from a range of animals and biologists at the time were sure such a creature couldn't really exist. It took quite a bit of effort to eventually get them accepted as alive.

It's still not a good example, because it had organic traits in common with its relatives. We have no evolving mechanical relatives to compare the Holy Terror to, unless of course that 'machine dimension book' thing posited by another poster turns up something.

Nightmask wrote:Given the megaverse has a range of living creatures that are inorganic

There is a difference between inorganic and designed, let's keep that in mind.

Nightmask wrote:look like living armors or plate mail

Like who? Let's keep in mind: being alive and looking like a suit of armor doesn't mean that you evolved. There are evolved-looking living suits of armor and designed-looking living suits of armor.

Nightmask wrote:by the biology of the setting the idea of Holy Terrors being a naturally occurring lifeform is completely within the context of the setting.

No idea what 'biology of the setting' you're talking about here. What context? If you mean Wormwood's Battle Saints, it's hypothesized that Wormwood itself is a designed planet. If not the planet itself then certainly the Saints at least exhibit a reaction to imagination if not being a direct product of it, rather than pure non-designed evolution.

Nightmask wrote:it's not 'strongly indicated' in the text, 'some techno-wizards think they might be constructs' isn't a strong indicator

'Many', not 'some'.

Nightmask wrote:everyone's got an opinion and no one has anything to back it up.

Not having absolute proof doesn't mean that TW's opinions are unbacked. TWs have the backing of their education and expertise. They're not another drop in the pot of superstitious vagabonds. They are well respected experts in many settings and their mention prominently in the first paragraph of the RCC is not coincidence.

Nightmask wrote:'I saw a Holy Terror and it looked like a construct' isn't worth the breath it took to speak it, it has nothing to make that opinion have more value than anyone else's

This is a valid opinion for those who have experience with constructs and how things don't tend to evolve this way independent of sentient designs.

Plus again, a request to drop the 'it looked like' arguments as TW suspicion sources aren't clarified, nor is your insistence that none of them allow thorough analysis.

Nightmask wrote:being smart and trained in techno-magic doesn't make their opinion of something they've never examined worth more than anyone else's opinion.

Actually it does. Sort of like how Hardware in HU have better analytical skills than laymen, based on their expertise. The problem here is that this obvious proficiency is not reflected in a skill percentage for TWs, like how Nightbane OCCs have a 'Principles of Magic' skill to reflect this. A 'principles of techno-wizardry' skill would clarify it. That said, even without this knowledge reflected in percentile, TWs can obviously be assumed to have it, since they design them.

Nightmask wrote:Nothing about Holy Terrors say that they look like welded and scupted armor (since welding implies being constructed)

Descriptions like "Appears to be artificial armor" .. "silver spikes" .. "walking talking giant suit of armor", "cyborg, robot or something else" are not referring to evolved biological armor like we might see on lobsters or Kreeghor. Terms like 'welded' and other things are adjectives I'm using based on how they look in the pictures.

Nightmask wrote:you can't go 'well earth elementals look like raw earth and that's how other non-organic creatures would look too'

I think you should probably just drop Elementals from your argument. The true form of elementals is actually as formless energy beings. When they take physical form it is through their powers to possess and move matter that they do so. These are not Elementals' true forms.

Nightmask wrote:that race of living armor-like creatures that parasitically take over other living beings looks like sculpted armor but is very much alive.

Again: this is not about whether or not they are 'alive' (we know Terrors are alive) but rather if that life is built or evolved. I don't have access to Aliens Unlimited at the moment, so I'm not able to do a visual comparison. Nor do I know if the Riathenor (or however it's spelled, been a while since I heard about them on the forums, assume this is what you mean) were an evolved species or a designed species.

Nightmask wrote:There's nothing but your own bias looking to spin it that Holy Terrors are constructs

This isn't my spin. I'm not making a claim here. I accept the (obscure, unevidenced, unindicated) possibility that they evolved to be this way. It just violates the odds to assume so. It's more likely (and more indicated) that they are constructed and designed beings.

Human beings evolved, but human beings as cyborgs (or anti-monsters) were designed to be the way they're presented, which is what I mean. I accept that the Terrors may at their core be (or have been) an evolved species of life. But whatever form they're in now looks designed, and it is indicated that it was designed by every reference to them. Every single reference indicates design, not a single reference indicates evolution. That's my point here. Mine is the supported assumption. You seem to be obsessing over the trivial possibility that something like this would've just popped into existence.

If you have access to AU please drop some quotes about how these things evolved and what it is they look like, or if it's acceptable to post a picture of them (not sure about board policies on this, any Riathenor icons?) that'd be useful. I oughtta get this book some day.

Nightmask wrote:seeks to dismiss the idea that they're naturally occurring beings by playing up some things as being less likely than they really are.

I don't seek to dismiss the possibility, but I do dismiss that it's likely or implied.

Nightmask wrote:you keep changing the goalposts and setting requirements as restrictive as possible to make it look as if something can't be as likely as it actually is.

I haven't changed anything: it's inherently unlikely and there aren't any indications (except for vague Riathenor or Machine Dimension Book theories which haven't been supported with quotes) that this is even possible. In spite of that: I accept possibility, but not likelihood. Nothing about the Holy Terror's description describes a likelihood or indication of these being their born evolved forms.

Nightmask wrote:Your requirements are geared towards excluding Holy Terrors as being naturally developed (you express your personal bias with the 'unlikely of being evolved' line)

I would prefer 'consciously developed' because I include intelligent design as part of 'nature'. The bias I have towards evolution producing this being unlikely is not personal, it's based on the text and the TWs.

Nightmask wrote:the impression that you've determined that they have to be created rather than natural

'Have to be' is more strawmanning that I don't entertain the idea of evolution. I do. It's just not the best candidate for an explanation.

Nightmask wrote:you over-inflate the worth of the opinions of some techno-wizards

'Many' techno-wizards. I'm not inflating anything: they're exceptionally intelligent magic-technology professionals.

Nightmask wrote:try to make it out that in spite of the vast range of creatures in Rifts and the megaverse in general that somehow living creatures that look like armor somehow can't exist

No, I am not trying to make it out that they "can't" exist, as you keep inserting. Please stop paraphrasing (you do it inaccurately) and only represent my views in the words I give it in. I am arguing that it is not indicated or likely that creatures like this are a product of evolution, that it is indicated and likely that they are products of intelligent design.

Nightmask wrote:while accepting all the even crazier things (including eldritch abominations) as being just fine.

I need specificity here, which Eldritch Abdominations which Evolved are you talking about?

Nightmask wrote:mercenaries can fight for causes

Yes, but that doesn't change the economic incentive inherently associated with them.

Nightmask wrote:you can't keep fighting for causes if you don't earn an income to support your troops. The average mercenary isn't lucky enough to be like Superman or Batman being vastly wealthy (Batman) or having everyone tossing stuff your way as gifts as well as inheriting a vast range of useful technology (Superman), most have to actually say 'hey look buddy I want to help your town out but I have to eat too so I really need something to help keep me going'.

[/quote]

I'm aware that some groups (such as PCs) might do mercenary acts to earn money to support non-mercenary altruistic initiatives. We could compare this to doctors who get paid to practice medicine earning income to support efforts to do voluntary uncompensated medical acts for the poor.

Larsen's Brigade isn't described as doing this though. Ralph himself has a history of this, of course, having once adventured with paladins led by a cyber-knight. It also mentions that his conditions for staying include choosing worth clients and regularly fighting evil. Odds are this means that Larsen doesn't include Ralph on missions with questionable clients and good people as targets.

Ralph himself, Unprincipled as he is, is not my poster-boy for the Unholy Terror. He isn't the worst known alignment (this is Anarchist, 1 in 20) so his being generally good (though still capable of turning evil) doesn't discount their dark potentials.

How about this. Page 50 of Dimension Book 7, Exotic Familiars. The biomech in there are living machines from a world of living machines. Now it COULD be built, but it doesnt say, and since they are ALIVE with ppe and all they appear to be unlike the Machine People.

Okay, its possible the Holy Terrors are TW, since some TWs speculate they are, of course does that make the Tolkeen juggernaughts Biowizardry since some speculate it is the same? And a second speculation (and thus given equal weight by the admitiatly pro-human wormwood people) is that they are people who are 'granted abilities' (not the granting is NOT explicitly implied to be TW) and infact they (by drawings at least) appear to be more like the battle saints, than an antimonster.

Also the R.C.C. does state that they can be 'good or anarchist' it doesnt say 'just those on wormwood' and that is the RCC write up. That strongly implies that ALL of them everywhere are good or anarchist.

Tor wrote:Entries on the Terrors talk about them looking like robots or suits of armor. With people who design magical suits of armor and robots (TWs) saying they think that's what they are. So it's heavily implied they did not evolve, as they don't appear to be like other things who don't have design-exclusive elements.

No that's not implied, heavily or otherwise, it's just fluff text without any objective weight to it. A guy in power armor looks like a robot doesn't mean you can just look and go 'hey look it's a robot' and have that actually have any actual weight to it. A shapeshifter morphed to look like a robot looks like a robot but 'hey look at that robot' again fails because looks mean nothing.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Again looks mean nothing.

That you keep saying this doesn't make it true. Looks mean a huge deal.

No they really don't, they're less than worthless when what you're talking about cannot be even remotely determined by just looking at something.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:They aren't doing an actual examination of a Holy Terror just going 'hey that looks like it might be a construct', which means nothing.

You don't know how thorough an examination those TWs did. Furthermore: visual examining is still a form of examination.

You're giving a level of importance to just looking at something that's not valid and not supported by the material. It requires far more than just looking at something to provide an opinion worth valuing.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Angar power armor and robots look like technology but are actually living demons morphed to look like power armor and robots, so appearances mean nothing.

Your logic doesn't hold up here. The Angar technology, while based on biological components, was DESIGNED by Ahriman and his minions. It did not naturally evolve this way. Demons were forced into that shape. Your example supports my argument, the Angar did not evolve, they were constructed intelligently.

It's your logic that's what fails because you keep insisting that just looking at something is all it takes to have a valid opinion on something and my example clearly proves you wrong. A Techno-Wizard looking at it is going to say 'oh wow look at that power armor' and they'd be dead wrong because it's not power armor, his visual inspection was completely worthless BECAUSE a visual inspection is worthless in such instances.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:being intelligent and knowing about how to make Techno-Wizard constructs gives no weight to random speculations on their part as to whether something they saw is or isn't a magical construct.

Your phrasing insists that the speculation by TWs is 'random' but you don't have evidence to support that. I would argue that there is no such thing as random speculation, and that compared to laymen (such as us) a TW is in a better position to speculate on the potential of an unknown thing being a magical robot or cyborg, since TWs have actually designed such things.

Your phrasing is that the TW has an informed opinion and they do not, and speculations are again WORTHLESS especially without anything substantive to base it on. 'Some TW think that they might be...' is a worthless opinion, it's random speculation based on a detail (what they look like) that is highly malleable and misleading.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Techno-Wizards can't make anti-monsters (it's explicitly noted to be impossible for a standard TW to be able to make one and even the Splugorth can't figure them out)

WB6pg34 "a creation of advanced trans-dimensional techno-wizardry" does imply that TWs can make them. That standard TWs can't is irrelevant. Most newbie PC chars are going to lack knowledge of certain things, but that doesn't mean it's impossible for them to learn how. Most Cyber-Docs are going to lack Desmond Bradford or Angel's ability to bio-engineer new species of life or create psynetic implants, but that also is not impossible if they gain that knowledge.

Keep in mind that I'm not arguing that these TWs could build a holy terror (or an anti-monster) but merely that they could recognize TWishness to it. Clearly the Splugorth (who have lots of TWs on staff... recent additions I guess, since apparently it was invented on Rifts Earth, right?) recognize some TW (or maybe bio-wizardry) aspects to anti-monsters, they just lack the specific design schematics and can't replicate them.

It's the same reason why operators with CS or Naruni Enterprise schematics could eventually produce such weaponry, but since they lack the data and facilities, can't by default.

You should do the entire quote regarding divine intervention being believed to be a required aspect of making the anti-monster, and that the Splugorth can't begin to copy them either (and why they speculate it requires an added component to make them). And do stop lumping the Holy Terror in with the Anti-Monster because there is no proof that they're a construct. None. Zero. Nada. 'It looks like a TW construct' is NOT even remotely rising to the standard required to make someone's opinion worth anything.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Techno-Wizards aren't educated in xeno-biology and can no more determine something is actually a living being or race by looking at it than anyone else can.

You don't need to be educated in xenobiology to call a car a car and not a robot in disguise.

Also the argument is not that the Holy Terrors aren't alive (they clearly ARE alive) but whether or not they are a created being or an evolved being. I and the TWs are arguing that their armor-like design belies a creator.

Tor your entire position is based on taking as your answer 'Holy Terrors are constructs' and spinning everything from that point to support the conclusion you want to reach. You do not have Techno-Wizards arguing that Holy Terrors are constructs (although you clearly are), you have some Techno-wizards who don't know ANYTHING about xeno-biology saying 'well it looks like a construct' when again they don't know ANYTHING about xeno-biology or alien lifeforms which means they lack sufficient knowledge to determine if anything's a lifeform or if it was constructed or naturally evolved. Because Holy Terrors have an armor-like APPEARANCE not an armor-like design.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Since they never allow themselves to be examined

Where are you getting this? Ralph says he doesn't let people examine him. That doesn't mean all Holy Terrors do. Tell me where it says all the Terrors forbid examinations. Not to mention: the Unholy's forces probably have some TWs on staff and have probably captured a Terror or two, so they may have examined them without consent.

The assumption that TWs are making random speculations is groundless. Even visual examination is valid (even a peasant could tell you they look like armor and not evolved plating) and TWs probably aren't just jumping to conclusions.

No your insistence that a TW's random speculations have weight is groundless, a visual inspection is worthless (do stop calling it an examination, that implies a level of study we aren't able to assume), although I agree that a TW's random comment about how something looks is as worthless as some uneducated peasant's opinion.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:random speculation from some random TW is worthless.

More 'random' assumptions and minimalization of TW credentials which eclipse our own.

The TW's credentials are worthless (and they can't eclipse ours because we have the omniscient viewpoint, information and insights beyond what anyone in the setting can ever have). 'If all you have is a hammer...' perfectly reflects the point, since Techno-Wizards don't know anything about alien life and how it can develop they think everything looks it has to be a magical construct because that's what they do, they're ignorant of what it takes to actually determine if something is a naturally occurring lifeform.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:an Astronomer's without the background to have any say about the existence of alien life or how it might evolve, it takes a completely separate educational background to have an opinion on those things that's worth listening to.

Physics and biology are important considerations here, but astronomy is also part of that discussion.

You seem to think that a TW would need special knowledge on how something like a Holy Terror might evolve on its own (something not even established) to discount that possibility though. Rather than the obvious: we know things like Holy Terrors have been built by Techno-Wizardry (the Anti-Monster) or Bio-Wizardry (Rune Statues). If a TW speculates something has TW elements, that is a worthwhile observation. A lack of knowledge to prove something we don't even know can be true disqualifies nothing here.

No, that is neither obvious nor a valid claim. Again you resort to fallacies here, you don't know what a Holy Terror is or its origins but are stating things from the assumption that they must be constructs to support your assumption that they're constructs, circular reasoning at its worst. A TW's speculations are worthless and cannot be used as if they were facts when they are already stated to be speculations which are just guesses and guesses are frequently wrong especially when you have no useful data to base them on, and 'I saw a Holy Terror and just stared really hard at it' is NOT useful data.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:those random speculations aren't given any weight at all over any other theories.

Oh? Then why aren't other sources of speculation besides TWs mentioned? That they're mentioned prominently in the RCC description is 'weight' to me.

That's not prominently, and it may have weight to you but it's fluff text tossed in to show someone displaying some worthless speculations and have no weight to anyone else outside of those house-ruling them as having a definitive origin as constructs.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Murder Wraiths are complete monsters, their entire existence requires being a complete monster to become one.

No, it doesn't. They're just PPE vampires who need to eat living flesh. PPE and flesh can come back with time. If a Wraith had a means of healing those they fed upon, that's a moot consideration. They need to inflict pain to feed, which has a chance of inflicting insanity upon those they feed upon. A Wraith could potentially choose volunteers, perhaps people who are resistant to insanity (high save bonuses), perhaps masochists who enjoy pain and would relish the procedure. Someone willing to pay the costs for a greater good, such as how a Wraith may protect their town from danger.

Wraiths could also choose to feed upon those who are evil and who might otherwise be executed. Being chosen as Wraith-food might be a stay of execution for a condemned criminal, which is for their own good.

Okay, you're clearly ignoring the game material and disagreeing just to disagree. Murder Wraiths as written in the books are depraved monsters, products of a death cult and required to engage in horribly evil acts for months as they're converted over into undead monsters. They have no potential to 'choose volunteers' or engage in anything like 'I shall only feed on the evil' thinking, because they're depraved monsters who had to devote themselves wholly to evil to become one.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:They aren't ever going to undergo any kind of enlightenment or shift from being thoroughly and utterly evil.

Why not? What forbids this? If it could happen, it'd be rare, but I don't see anything forbidding this.

Again disagreeing just to disagree, because the backgrounds for Murder Wraiths require them to thoroughly and completely devote themselves to evil, it's the essence of their beings.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:You need to reread the Apok OCC, they're 100% committed to opposing evil in all its forms, even becoming an Apok required they start as thoroughly evil sorts who chose to reject their past life of evil utterly and completely.

The part about 100% dedication relates to the moment of becoming an Apok. It doesn't say anything about this 100% being fixed for the rest of their life. Cosmo-Knights and Wormspeakers also require this dedication and good alignment, but they can fall, so why not the Apoks?

Because they're Apoks not Cosmo-Knights or Wormspeakers, and of course that 100% dedication means for life, you're just trying to twist the language to allow for something that's contrary to the actual text's meaning.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:They can't be anything but good.

Why not? The Apoks are described as having "stared into the blackness of his own soul and potential for evil". Nothing is said about this potential going away. The very source of an Apok's power is being reminded of his own capacity for evil. So I'd argue that they must be able to return to evil. What makes an Apok is not an inability to become evil, but rather a choice not to.

You can argue that all you want, but it's wrong. They can't return to evil, their magical rebirth as we can tell from the text makes them completely dedicated to good and won't ever return to evil, outside of a house-ruled campaign that contradicts the books.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:it's not an educated assessment, an educated assessment actually requires you to ASSESS something of which just looking at it is NOT an educated assessment that's a random speculation.

TWs are educated. Looking IS a way to assess. The issue being assessed is if Terrors may have TW origins. Thus it IS an educated assessment. It says "many TWs suspect". You seem to be implying that TWs just randomly suspect things.

Why do you keep resorting to those fallacies all the time? 'Oranges are round. The Earth is Round. The Earth is an Orange.' just doesn't cut it. One of the worse problems we run into is people fallaciously thinking that just because someone is educated is that what they have to say always matters when it doesn't. The issue is 'What is the nature of Holy Terrors?' NOT 'Are Holy Terrors constructs?'.

Also no, I'm outright stating that people, INCLUDING Techno-Wizards, make random speculations all the time. They look at a woman and think 'well she's easy/uptight/frigid/etc' without anything to base that on but a random visual inspection. Techno-Wizards make random speculations about things that have no actual say on what something actually is just like everyone else. You can't just look at something, especially in a fantasy/sci-fi setting and actually have a useful opinion on what it actually is. There are too many things that exist that exist to fool you based on their appearances, including creatures that evolved to look like something else for survival purposes. It's as likely in a setting like Rifts that Holy Terrors come from a world where the locals evolved their armored look due to trying to blend in with other lifeforms that have robots or power armor and eventually won the battle for survival.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Much like 'if all you have is a hammer' if all you are is a Techno-Wizard you're going to look around and see everything in terms of techno-wizardry no matter how wrong you actually are.

Implying the TWs are wrong (based on what?).

Based on those who were randomly speculating knowing nothing about how alien life evolves or might look and having nothing to go on other than 'well I saw a Holy Terror the other day, man it looked like a cool construct to me!'. You keep insisting that their speculations must be right because 'well a Techno-Wizard said it so it must be true', which is a simply ridiculous position because they have none of the information required to actually make a statement that can be considered to have weight.

Tor wrote:Also, TWs don't necessarily think it's TW, but possibly related things. Arguably things like rune magic are related to Techno-Wizardry (though moreso to Bio-Wizardry). All Lizard TWs (save K'zaa) knowing the secrets of rune magic illustrates that. TW speculation is "some sort of magic robot" and "may not be human or even alive" and "merging of man, machine and magic".

You really need to stop speaking in such sweeping terms. SOME techno-wizards based on nothing more than having seen one think Holy Terrors MIGHT be constructs, you keep saying it as if ALL techno-Wizards have studied Holy Terrors and have concluded from actual study that they are which is simply completely wrong.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:it LOOKS like, and all the TW has is LOOKS which are worthless.

1. you assume TW suspicions are founded solely on looks, without evidence.
2. you call looks worthless, when judging things by appearance is NOT worthless, rather it is a part of established technological and biological assessments.

No, you are assuming that TW guesswork regarding Holy Terrors is based on more than looks when you have no evidence that they've done more than look, and yes just looking at something is worthless when trying to determine something as complex as whether or not something is a naturally occurring or artificially created being.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:A thousand techno-wizards can look at the android 'son' ARCHIE-3 created and they'll all think he not only looks but is human like everyone else does because looks are worthless.

You're using an example of a technological construct mimicing an evolved being as evidence that an evolved being's fixed default form would mimic a technological construct? That's quite flipped around, no? I mean, I'm not disputing that some shapeshifters (Amorphs for example) can consciously mimic technological objects, but that is a form of intelligent design because a mind (the Amorph) is constructing the form out of ectoplasm. While the Amorph may have evolved, their choice of form did not.

No, I'm using an example of how worthless just looking at something is when it comes to determining what it actually is. Your 'experts' on Technology the Techno-Wizards would see Argent, who looks like a normal human being and immediately assume and accept that he's a normal human being. So by the logic you keep tossing around their 'educated, informed opinions' would mean that Argent must be a normal human being when we know that he's not and the Techno-Wizards must be wrong. If they can't tell just by looking at Argent he's a construct why would anyone think they could do any better telling if anything else is a construct just by looking at it? Obviously they can't do any better and so their speculations are worthless.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:you keep operating under the underlying belief that Holy Terrors are magical constructs

I don't think I am, I'm considering it a possibility and a possibility which is implied.

No you are, all your responses revolve around them being constructs and giving weight to random speculations that support that position when those speculations have no more weight than any other speculations. The text was meant to make things as ambiguous as possible but instead you're deriving a meaning to it that's opposite of the actual meaning, taking what was meant to express how varied the opinions are regarding Holy Terrors and instead behaving as if was meant to make one speculation the valid one which isn't so.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:therefor that makes Techno-Wizards experts to understand them

No, I'm saying that TWs are experts at noticing the signs of techno-wizardry. Any layman can see that the Terror looks like a designed suit of armor though. They lack the organic Je ne cai quois. I continue to welcome you to present any other being in the Megaverse as obviously as mechanical-looking as these guys who are implied to have evolved that way.

You've yet to supply anything that actually proves that they aren't naturally occurring beings, and talk about using fallacies. 'Any layman can see', which of course is why you don't listen to what those who have no experience or knowledge on a topic because they don't know enough to have any idea what they're talking about. Go back a hundred years and the average leyman will likely think you in league with the devil showing him your laptop because it clearly looks like a demonic construct to them. Same with the fallacy that because Techno-Wizards make TW-Constructs that because some thought something looked like a construct it must be when the only thing they understand is constructs, they lack the education to understand something not being a construct but could look like one so they spin things like everyone else in terms that they do understand even when they're wrong.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:that underlying belief is purely your opinion and not even close to being valid in the books.

It's not purely my opinion: it's the opinion of many Techno-wizards. I'm sharing their opinion. It doesn't originate with me. It's also very close to being valid, because it's the most reasonable explanation we have for why they are the way they are.

No really it originates with you, you have a position of fanon (Holy Terrors are Constructs) so are spinning the text to say that they are trying to slap a canon label on what's purely fanon. You skip right over all the other possibilities including naturally occurring to latch onto the one speculation you favor.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:It's a fallacy that assumes the answer in the question

I don't see how that could be. Isn't assuming you need to be a xenobiologist to disprove as having evolved more of a fallacy? Proving negatives is pretty hard. Can you prove that computers did not evolve? Or rather, would you make an argument for the greater likelihood that they show evidence of having been built?

Your point has been 'Holy Terrors are constructs because some random Techno-Wizards thought they might be', even though Techno-Wizards don't know anything about naturally occurring life-forms and have had no more option to actually study them than a xeno-biologist has had. You've also stated that 'well in my opinion they must be and oh look some TW agree with me so it must be right', when you've nothing to support that other than 'well they look like constructs to me'. So you've got your conclusion and then went and found stuff that you try and spin to support it and ignore all the other options when all you've got for 'proof' is that something looks a certain way which means nothing when so many things exist that can be mistaken for things that they aren't either accidentally or by design.

The only valid response one can have based on the book material is 'we don't have enough information to support any position, they're all equally valid and any answers barring new material is whatever house rule someone decides on making regarding their origins applies to their particular game'. The speculations of the Techno-Wizards mentioned in the books have no more validity than any other.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:no proof exists that Holy Terrors are magical constructs

I never claimed there was proof. But it's very clear: "what looks to be artificial armor". These beings look artificial. Indeed these artificial parts are alive, but we know full well that artificial things can be made alive (rune statues, Dweomer Automatons, god minion races) so that doesn't disqualify design.

Believe me you're claiming there is proof every time you say 'they look artificial', you're holding up how they look as 'proof' that they're artificial when that isn't proof at all.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:some Techno-wizard's opinion based on just seeing something

"TWs suspect" doesn't mean "suspect just based on seeing". We don't know what the assessment is based on. So we shouldn't be insisting either way that it's based purely on sight or that a friendly Terror let a TW ally pull them apart and check out their specs.

Their is only one known Holy Terror on Rifts Earth, and we know Holy Terrors don't allow themselves to be examined, and it's ridiculous to toss out 'well maybe one let himself be taken apart by an ally' because there's nothing to support that contention or that any Holy Terror has ever let anyone give it an actual examination and yes 'some Techno-Wizards suspect' can indeed mean 'based on just seeing', people suspect a lot of things based on just seeing and are often wrong as a result.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:is a worthless opinion because he has nothing to base it on other than looking and that's completely inadequate to qualify as an informed opinion.

I'd strongly appreciate it if you'd stop with the whole 'based on looking' thing. We don't know.

Odd, you keep insisting that you're sure that Techno-Wizards have intensively studied Holy Terrors, when nothing in the books says that. Meanwhile the books say that they don't ever let themselves be examined so logically the only thing one could base their opinion on is just by looking, which you've conceded before but are backpedaling on now.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:you're just trying to move the goalposts because you don't like the answer invalidating your claims.

I don't see how it invalidates them. Having traits of various species (when theories about the evolution of life usually imply that all species on Earth have common ancestors) hardly disqualifies design. The Holy Terror does not have the traits of various evolved species: they have the traits of platemail, robots, spiked armor, mechanical claws, hinge joints, knee pads, rivets and belts.

You do realize that YOU have hinged joints right? Or that other creatures have armor like armadillos or even armored exo-skeletal shells? They also have spikes and a wide range of protrusions. Why you think in a fantasy setting covering the incredible range of things Rifts does somehow inexplicably wouldn't allow for a creature evolving to have an armored appearance is mind-boggling.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:When the first platypus was sent in it was dismissed as an 'obvious' hoax because it looked like it was assembled from a range of animals and biologists at the time were sure such a creature couldn't really exist. It took quite a bit of effort to eventually get them accepted as alive.

It's still not a good example, because it had organic traits in common with its relatives. We have no evolving mechanical relatives to compare the Holy Terror to, unless of course that 'machine dimension book' thing posited by another poster turns up something.

Yes really it is, it was something that people were certain couldn't have evolved because the traits it had were so all over the place that it was felt it couldn't possibly have all existed in the same creature. You are insisting that Holy Terrors have traits that couldn't possibly exist in a naturally evolved being, holding it to RL standards where while it surely couldn't exist in RL it can certainly exist within the context of a setting like Rifts.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:look like living armors or plate mail

Like who? Let's keep in mind: being alive and looking like a suit of armor doesn't mean that you evolved. There are evolved-looking living suits of armor and designed-looking living suits of armor.

Yet you keep insisting that the Holy Terror can't be one of the evolved-looking living suits of armor because 'it looks like armor'. Which qualifies as fail there, trying to argue that it can't be evolved based on how it looks while conceding that naturally evolved living beings looking like armor exist and would be just as wrongly speculated to be constructs by those without knowledge to the contrary.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:by the biology of the setting the idea of Holy Terrors being a naturally occurring lifeform is completely within the context of the setting.

No idea what 'biology of the setting' you're talking about here. What context? If you mean Wormwood's Battle Saints, it's hypothesized that Wormwood itself is a designed planet. If not the planet itself then certainly the Saints at least exhibit a reaction to imagination if not being a direct product of it, rather than pure non-designed evolution.

The biology of the setting, i.e. Rifts. The sci-fi/fantasy setting where anything and everything pretty much exists, including naturally occurring living beings that look like armored beings or constructs but actually aren't.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:it's not 'strongly indicated' in the text, 'some techno-wizards think they might be constructs' isn't a strong indicator

'Many', not 'some'.

Some, many, either way it doesn't make it valid. Many people think the world is going to end today, doesn't make it valid. There are many people who think the Earth is Flat, doesn't mean the earth is flat. Many people thought blacks were inferior based on their skin color, didn't make them right either. Many can be wrong if they haven't sufficient data to form a valid opinion on.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:everyone's got an opinion and no one has anything to back it up.

Not having absolute proof doesn't mean that TW's opinions are unbacked. TWs have the backing of their education and expertise. They're not another drop in the pot of superstitious vagabonds. They are well respected experts in many settings and their mention prominently in the first paragraph of the RCC is not coincidence.

You're over-inflating the degree to which Techno-Wizards are respected and the degree of worth of their education. You don't trust a lawyer regarding whether or not you should get life-saving surgery because he's not a doctor and you don't listen to a Techno-Wizard regarding whether or not something is alive or naturally evolved when he's trained to build stuff mixing magic and technology. You might include one as part of a study group to analyze something to determine what it is but not on his own and not when he's got no real data to base his opinions on.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:'I saw a Holy Terror and it looked like a construct' isn't worth the breath it took to speak it, it has nothing to make that opinion have more value than anyone else's

This is a valid opinion for those who have experience with constructs and how things don't tend to evolve this way independent of sentient designs.

Plus again, a request to drop the 'it looked like' arguments as TW suspicion sources aren't clarified, nor is your insistence that none of them allow thorough analysis.

Look, the books make it clear that the origins of Holy Terrors is unknown and that none of them allow themselves to be analyzed. If they did then we wouldn't have 'Some TW think that...' we'd have 'Holy Terrors are known constructs'. Your attempts to spin the text to weight your opinion as having more value fail because your very efforts to spin it that way disprove your position. Holy Terrors have not been studied in detail because there would be a definitive answer to the question, if all we're given is possibilities then logically no one has actually studied them or learned the truth of them.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:being smart and trained in techno-magic doesn't make their opinion of something they've never examined worth more than anyone else's opinion.

Actually it does. Sort of like how Hardware in HU have better analytical skills than laymen, based on their expertise. The problem here is that this obvious proficiency is not reflected in a skill percentage for TWs, like how Nightbane OCCs have a 'Principles of Magic' skill to reflect this. A 'principles of techno-wizardry' skill would clarify it. That said, even without this knowledge reflected in percentile, TWs can obviously be assumed to have it, since they design them.

No really it doesn't, your word means nothing about something you've never examined no matter how smart or educated you are, and again you keep insisting that an actual analysis has somehow occurred which is simply rejected by the text regarding Holy Terrors.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:you can't go 'well earth elementals look like raw earth and that's how other non-organic creatures would look too'

I think you should probably just drop Elementals from your argument. The true form of elementals is actually as formless energy beings. When they take physical form it is through their powers to possess and move matter that they do so. These are not Elementals' true forms.

You were the one that brought up Earth Elementals, not I.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:There's nothing but your own bias looking to spin it that Holy Terrors are constructs

This isn't my spin. I'm not making a claim here. I accept the (obscure, unevidenced, unindicated) possibility that they evolved to be this way. It just violates the odds to assume so. It's more likely (and more indicated) that they are constructed and designed beings.

No that's really not more likely or indicated, and that has been your claim. We're talking a sci-fi/fantasy setting with trillions of inhabited worlds spread across an entire multiverse, it would violate the odds to NOT have something end up looking like a living suit of armor.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:you keep changing the goalposts and setting requirements as restrictive as possible to make it look as if something can't be as likely as it actually is.

I haven't changed anything: it's inherently unlikely and there aren't any indications (except for vague Riathenor or Machine Dimension Book theories which haven't been supported with quotes) that this is even possible. In spite of that: I accept possibility, but not likelihood. Nothing about the Holy Terror's description describes a likelihood or indication of these being their born evolved forms.

It's only inherently unlikely in RL terms in a universe bound by RL rules, which is where you keep stumbling. You keep applying RL rules for such things to a setting not based on RL rules.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:the impression that you've determined that they have to be created rather than natural

'Have to be' is more strawmanning that I don't entertain the idea of evolution. I do. It's just not the best candidate for an explanation.

Only in your opinion based on an underlying assumption that they in your opinion don't look evolved so can't be, which I've already pointed out in various ways that looks aren't a valid reason for judgment. Just as people looked at the platypus and insisted it didn't look evolved, but a flawed view on evolution created that opinion.

Tor wrote:

Nightmask wrote:you over-inflate the worth of the opinions of some techno-wizards

'Many' techno-wizards. I'm not inflating anything: they're exceptionally intelligent magic-technology professionals.

A response that just continues to support my point that you over-inflate the value of the word of techno-wizards on something they don't understand and have never even examined to any degree that any professional would ever consider worth considering their opinion as having value.

Could someone please clarify what this argument is actually about?

Is someone claiming that there is a canon reason to believe that there is some evil purpose behind Holy Terrors?

Or is someone merely claiming that it's possible that there is some evil purpose behind the Holy Terrors?

--flatline

flatline wrote:Could someone please clarify what this argument is actually about?

Is someone claiming that there is a canon reason to believe that there is some evil purpose behind Holy Terrors?

Or is someone merely claiming that it's possible that there is some evil purpose behind the Holy Terrors?

--flatline

That one.

Tor wrote:No it's just I don't think the lack of knowing misdeeds to attribute to someone means they're all good. Odds are such people did bad things which we just don't know about. Consider it a default low view of humanity

Well. considering the tabloids spent millions trying to find dirt on him and didn't find one bit, I daresay there's reason to doubt your default view.

/Sub

Could we keep the answers either short, or use the spoiler tag? when reposts are getting to be a page in and of them selves.....well snip it or spoiler it

Gryphon wrote:Perhaps you might want to stow the pro-CS bias you are bringing to any evaluation you are making about Larson.

There is no pro-CS bias here. Emperor Prosek declared him a national hero. This is one issue I must deviate from the Emperor on. I fear he is far too kind, and we should condemn Larsen's lack of duty.

Gryphon wrote:Read the books, objectively, and make a decision base don that, don't suddenly drop in character in some strange way to make Larson, the admitted good guy, look like he might not be a good guy.

I believe I did refer to many objective issues in the book. You seem to have ignored the evil murder-happy Juicer he admires so much.

Gryphon wrote:until we hear someone say a Holy Terror is a TW construct, it isn't.

Untrue. Until we figure out what they are, they are potentially anything, yet guaranteed to be nothing.

Gryphon wrote:the Unholy likely doesn't' have a great many TWs working for them (quite possibly none really, considering how rare they are)

Pg 44: "techno-wizardry is one of the most popular of the magic OCCs on Wormwood." They're not so rare. The typical MediumToLarge free human city has 1D6x30 practitioners of magic in the armed forces and 1-2 TW shops. Submissive cities (including the Wolf in Sheep's clothing type) also have 1-2 TW shops each (under close monitoring by the Unholy) with demons in the shop watching the TWs.

This means that the Unholy does have TWs he can access to do this for him.

Gryphon wrote:I would like to hear a direct quote on Holy Terrors refusing examination though. While it makes sense, it does need to be stated rather than presumed. Holy Terrors appear to a a "Deeds, not Words" sort of group, and being a living sentient it is well within their rights to simply tell someone demanding the right to examine them to take a hike. They HAVE earned the right of respect by kicking the crap out of the Unholy after all, right?

True, and I'd expect many to share Ralph's stance on the matter, but all it would take is 1.

Gryphon wrote:the filter made it look like I was saying something I wasn't.

Eh, maybe I missed it, so long as the response was aimed at what it said either way.

eliakon wrote:How about this. Page 50 of Dimension Book 7, Exotic Familiars. The biomech in there are living machines from a world of living machines. Now it COULD be built, but it doesnt say, and since they are ALIVE with ppe and all they appear to be unlike the Machine People.

Sounds cool, will have to reserve judgment here since I don't have the book. My assumption with living machines though is that someone built them, unless there's some evolutionary explanation.

eliakon wrote:possible the Holy Terrors are TW, since some TWs speculate they are, of course does that make the Tolkeen juggernaughts Biowizardry since some speculate it is the same?

Could be, it's all up in the air.

eliakon wrote:second speculation (and thus given equal weight by the admitiatly pro-human wormwood people) is that they are people who are 'granted abilities' and infact they appear to be more like the battle saints, than an antimonster.

That seems like a very Wormwood-centric viewpoint though, considering they came from another dimension. Was the dimension the heart of Wormwood? Not a shifter's coincidence?

eliakon wrote:the R.C.C. does state that they can be 'good or anarchist' it doesnt say 'just those on wormwood' and that is the RCC write up. That strongly implies that ALL of them everywhere are good or anarchist.

'Those on Wormwood' is strongly implied because the only ones involved in the game are generally going to be those on Wormwood (Ralph being a straggler who was ABOUT to be on Wormwood). The alignment percentages need to be either for the number on Wormwood or the number for the race as a whole (it's not likely the two would match, groups rarely have perfect representations of wholes). It's more reasonable to assume that the percentages reflect the population on Wormwood that players will encounter in the game.

flatline wrote:Could someone please clarify what this argument is actually about?

It's branched out a bit

flatline wrote:Is someone claiming that there is a canon reason to believe that there is some evil purpose behind Holy Terrors?

I'm not sure what a 'canon reason' would be. It's reasonable to consider (if not believe) the potential for evil in all species of life.

flatline wrote:is someone merely claiming that it's possible that there is some evil purpose behind the Holy Terrors?

More the possibility than the reality, yes.

Subjugator wrote:the tabloids spent millions trying to find dirt on him and didn't find one bit, I daresay there's reason to doubt your default view.

Absense of evidence isn't evidence of absence

eliakon wrote:

Spoiler:

Could we keep the answers either short, or use the spoiler tag? when reposts are getting to be a page in and of them selves.....well snip it or spoiler it

Like around quotes? Will give that a try here... though I think browsers load the text regardless, and if we're quoting a short amount of text I'm not sure how much scrolling that saves.

Tor wrote:

eliakon wrote:How about this. Page 50 of Dimension Book 7, Exotic Familiars. The biomech in there are living machines from a world of living machines. Now it COULD be built, but it doesnt say, and since they are ALIVE with ppe and all they appear to be unlike the Machine People.

Sounds cool, will have to reserve judgment here since I don't have the book. My assumption with living machines though is that someone built them, unless there's some evolutionary explanation.

[/quote]

Well thats obviously your assumption, the point is that it IS just an assuption. The simple fact is that we have know way of knowing, and there is nothing other than one line in the flavor text to suggest one way or another. As for the Biomech, they come from a world where the entire ecosystem is bio-mechanical. They have no mention of a creator, and infact would appear to be evolved since there is an ecosystem.

It is the correct assumption, since so far as we know, machines are created things and not things that spontaneously evolve.

The presence of an ecosystem does not mean that something evolved. Wormwood is an ecosystem and it is implied that may have been created.

Entire ecosystems can be created out of pure thought in Astral Realms. Dyval's realms were also intelligently designed ecosystems.

Tor wrote:

Subjugator wrote:the tabloids spent millions trying to find dirt on him and didn't find one bit, I daresay there's reason to doubt your default view.

Absense of evidence isn't evidence of absence

Except that the absence of evidence IS evidence of absence. Here's the proof:

http://oyhus.no/pics/AbsenceOfEvidence.gif

--flatline

Tor wrote:It is the correct assumption, since so far as we know, machines are created things and not things that spontaneously evolve.

The presence of an ecosystem does not mean that something evolved. Wormwood is an ecosystem and it is implied that may have been created.

Entire ecosystems can be created out of pure thought in Astral Realms. Dyval's realms were also intelligently designed ecosystems.

What I'm not getting is where the line of logic goes: Holy Terrors (Possibly) Created ---> Holy Terrors are Secretly Evil. You actually have to have a Step 2 before you get to "Profit!".

That's the part you really need to prove. The origin (presently being created, created once but are now free will, etc...) is all academic to their present goals, which seem to go no further than "Find Evil and Hit it With Spikes and Lightning Bolts".

Tor wrote:It is the correct assumption, since so far as we know, machines are created things and not things that spontaneously evolve.

The presence of an ecosystem does not mean that something evolved. Wormwood is an ecosystem and it is implied that may have been created.

Entire ecosystems can be created out of pure thought in Astral Realms. Dyval's realms were also intelligently designed ecosystems.

it is the correct assumption for OUR universe. This universe already has
-Intelligent Light (how do you evolve light?)
-Living Rocks (Obsedai for example)
-Living Ectoplasm (animporphs)
-Living Magical stuff (creatures of magic are described as 'made of organized ppe')
None of these are implied in anyway to be created. Its a fantasy universe with its own laws. And some of the stuff in it is wierd, even for its own 'rules' (Dirari Ecto-Men)

So we dont HAVE to assume anything, your free to assume what you like, but there is absolutly nothing in canon to suggest that it has to be that way.

Gryphon wrote:So Larson respect's one nutter...worse things have happened, and until that nutter manages to get Larson to do something clearly evil, it matters little, it at all. I have to wonder if Larson really understands the nature of this Juicer though...

Either way, by opting NOT to slaughter that village, Larson opted to go on being the good guy here. Objectively, that's all we really need to know. He is an basically good, honorable man. (With a blindness for apparently one evil Juicer.)

And again, until we hear a Holy Terror IS a construct, it isn't, any more than its any other specific thing. It's "unknown", and that is the best we can say about it to date. And an "unknown" whose actions are apparently all based on doing stuff that is objectively "good" in nature.

Totally missed that thing about TW activity in Wormwood, good catch, my bad chief. Point conceded. The problem now becomes that if there are TWs working for the Unholy, and the Unholy could get hold of a Holy Terror for examination, and no such examination has apparently occurred...what is is about the Holy Terrors that makes it so you apparently CAN'T examine them? (VERY speculative on my part, but until a second Wormwood book comes out saying that such an examination has occurred, then it hasn't happened to date.)

My original said a holy Terror would tell someone to "urinate" into the wind essentially. But that got replaced by four stars, making it look like I ended up saying something that really was vulgar in nature. not ideal really.

Well there are a lot of possible reasons why no Holy Terrors have been examined, from the numbers being small enough no one with an interest in examining one has ever really had the chance, to them having an unstated ability to just self-terminate that leaves nothing behind not even remains to examine. Probably a combination of factors are involved for why no one's been able to discover just what they are or where they originate.

flatline wrote:Except that the absence of evidence IS evidence of absence. Here's the proof: http://oyhus.no/pics/AbsenceOfEvidence.gif

I don't understand logic well enough to point out the problem with that formula, but sufficed to say, just because we haven't found Joan Prosek's finger doesn't mean it got destroyed.

SAMASzero wrote:I'm not getting is where the line of logic goes: Holy Terrors (Possibly) Created ---> Holy Terrors are Secretly Evil. You actually have to have a Step 2 before you get to "Profit!".

That's the part you really need to prove. The origin (presently being created, created once but are now free will, etc...) is all academic to their present goals, which seem to go no further than "Find Evil and Hit it With Spikes and Lightning Bolts".

I never made the argument that the Holy Terrors on Wormwood are evil, they're clearly not. The speculation was about the alignments of the second wave that never arrived and of any potential creators.

eliakon wrote:This universe already has
-Intelligent Light (how do you evolve light?)
-Living Ectoplasm (animporphs)

Ectoplasm and light are not machines though. They're a different basis than carbon for a lifeform, thazzit.[/quote]

eliakon wrote:-Living Rocks (Obsedai for example)

Unfamiliar with Obsedai, book/page?

eliakon wrote:-Living Magical stuff (creatures of magic are described as 'made of organized ppe')

Eh, I think gods were described as this, where does it say all CoM are. Including dragons? Fairies?

eliakon wrote:None of these are implied in anyway to be created. Its a fantasy universe with its own laws. And some of the stuff in it is wierd, even for its own 'rules' (Dirari Ecto-Men) So we dont HAVE to assume anything, your free to assume what you like, but there is absolutly nothing in canon to suggest that it has to be that way.

The thing is, I don't assume any of these things were created, because we don't know the rules for how such things come about. We don't know that people can invent them.

But we do know that people can invent cyborgs and robots. Even magical ones.

Gryphon wrote:until we hear a Holy Terror IS a construct, it isn't, any more than its any other specific thing. It's "unknown", and that is the best we can say about it to date.

It's an unknown we can best say is probably a construct as it shows the signs of design.

Gryphon wrote:if there are TWs working for the Unholy, and the Unholy could get hold of a Holy Terror for examination, and no such examination has apparently occurred...what is is about the Holy Terrors that makes it so you apparently CAN'T examine them?

Probably because they would be very difficult to capture and fight to the death?

Tor wrote:

flatline wrote:Except that the absence of evidence IS evidence of absence. Here's the proof: http://oyhus.no/pics/AbsenceOfEvidence.gif

I don't understand logic well enough to point out the problem with that formula, but sufficed to say, just because we haven't found Joan Prosek's finger doesn't mean it got destroyed.

The starting formula is the standard mathematical representation for evidence. You will probably find it in any math book that covers Bayes' Theorem (any book on probability will do this). I've walked through the linked proof a couple of times and noticed no errors although I don't like the unconventional flow requiring arrows for indicating the sequence of evaluation or the fact that the author sometimes performs more than one operation in a step. But it was the only linkable proof I found on the first page of google results.

I knew that I'd find a proof when I searched, however, because I remembered doing this proof as a homework assignment from my college statistics class.

I think the reason why the result offends your intuition is because you're conflating the absence of evidence with ignorance of the evidence. Not having found existing evidence is a very different thing from the evidence not existing in the first place. But if you've performed a search for evidence that should have found said evidence if it existed, then that constitutes evidence against whatever it was that the missing evidence would have been evidence for.

Anyways, just know that the cliche "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" is mathematically wrong. And please correct anyone who says it. The world will be a better place for it.

--flatline

Tor wrote:

flatline wrote:Except that the absence of evidence IS evidence of absence. Here's the proof: http://oyhus.no/pics/AbsenceOfEvidence.gif

I don't understand logic well enough to point out the problem with that formula, but sufficed to say, just because we haven't found Joan Prosek's finger doesn't mean it got destroyed.

SAMASzero wrote:I'm not getting is where the line of logic goes: Holy Terrors (Possibly) Created ---> Holy Terrors are Secretly Evil. You actually have to have a Step 2 before you get to "Profit!".

That's the part you really need to prove. The origin (presently being created, created once but are now free will, etc...) is all academic to their present goals, which seem to go no further than "Find Evil and Hit it With Spikes and Lightning Bolts".

I never made the argument that the Holy Terrors on Wormwood are evil, they're clearly not. The speculation was about the alignments of the second wave that never arrived and of any potential creators.

Well, there's little to suggest the rest of the force doesn't have a similar distribution of alignment. No commander marches their soldiers "Nice guys in front, baby-eaters to the rear".

As for the alignment of any possible creator, there's many ways that could go. They could have rebelled against an Evil creator (kind of like the Machine People), or presently serve a Good one. The circumstances given seem to point towards self-governance, but possibly not starting that way.

flatline wrote:I think the reason why the result offends your intuition is because you're conflating the absence of evidence with ignorance of the evidence. Not having found existing evidence is a very different thing from the evidence not existing in the first place.

Ah, now I follow you. Yes, the expression 'absence of evidence' is usually used to mean not having found any, not being presented with any, not knowing any.

flatline wrote:if you've performed a search for evidence that should have found said evidence if it existed, then that constitutes evidence against whatever it was that the missing evidence would have been evidence for.

The problem here is that we assume a search should have found it. It assumes perfection of search. A flawed search, an incomplete search, is not absence of evidence.

In the case of the Terrors, it's established we know very little about them, so the ignorance of potential evidence is not an absence of evidence in the actual universe.

We lack in-book evidence that Alistair Dunscon has a mole on the bottom of his foot, yet that isn't an absence of potential evidence in-game which could show that.

SAMASzero wrote:there's little to suggest the rest of the force doesn't have a similar distribution of alignment. No commander marches their soldiers "Nice guys in front, baby-eaters to the rear".

Some armies might. Different armies work different ways. It may be that when the Terrors organized the incursion, the nicest guys volunteered to go first. The more selfish ones may have hesitated and held back from volunteering, found ways to skimp out on duty until later after the first wave did most of the work, etc.

SAMASzero wrote:As for the alignment of any possible creator, there's many ways that could go. They could have rebelled against an Evil creator (kind of like the Machine People), or presently serve a Good one. The circumstances given seem to point towards self-governance, but possibly not starting that way.

Yeah these are all good ideas. Very much up in the air since we know so little. I bet a Holy Terrors dimension book could be pretty sweet.

Now I'm trying to think of other vague Races/RCCs from other dimensions who could have dimension books. Perhaps a dimension book for the homeworld of the Floopers?

Tor wrote:

flatline wrote:I think the reason why the result offends your intuition is because you're conflating the absence of evidence with ignorance of the evidence. Not having found existing evidence is a very different thing from the evidence not existing in the first place.

Ah, now I follow you. Yes, the expression 'absence of evidence' is usually used to mean not having found any, not being presented with any, not knowing any.

flatline wrote:if you've performed a search for evidence that should have found said evidence if it existed, then that constitutes evidence against whatever it was that the missing evidence would have been evidence for.

The problem here is that we assume a search should have found it. It assumes perfection of search. A flawed search, an incomplete search, is not absence of evidence.

In the case of the Terrors, it's established we know very little about them, so the ignorance of potential evidence is not an absence of evidence in the actual universe.

We lack in-book evidence that Alistair Dunscon has a mole on the bottom of his foot, yet that isn't an absence of potential evidence in-game which could show that.

SAMASzero wrote:there's little to suggest the rest of the force doesn't have a similar distribution of alignment. No commander marches their soldiers "Nice guys in front, baby-eaters to the rear".

Some armies might. Different armies work different ways. It may be that when the Terrors organized the incursion, the nicest guys volunteered to go first. The more selfish ones may have hesitated and held back from volunteering, found ways to skimp out on duty until later after the first wave did most of the work, etc.

SAMASzero wrote:As for the alignment of any possible creator, there's many ways that could go. They could have rebelled against an Evil creator (kind of like the Machine People), or presently serve a Good one. The circumstances given seem to point towards self-governance, but possibly not starting that way.

Yeah these are all good ideas. Very much up in the air since we know so little. I bet a Holy Terrors dimension book could be pretty sweet.

Now I'm trying to think of other vague Races/RCCs from other dimensions who could have dimension books. Perhaps a dimension book for the homeworld of the Floopers?

Curse those evil floopers!!!