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Metamorphosis Spells
Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 8:58 pm
by Glistam
In a Rifts game I'm playing in, my character received an item that allows him to perform Metamorphosis: Superior. At first I didn't think much on it. Then, I started really reviewing the spell (and the other metamorphosis spells it encompasses), and now I fear I'm thinking too much on it!
Metamorphosis: Superior wrote:This incantation enables the spell caster to transform himself into any real, living creature: animal, human, D-Bee, insect, fish or whatever. The usual limitations and abilities still apply. The mage can also transform himself to resemble a supernatural creature, but does not possess any of its powers or abilities, only his own normal, human abilities (I.Q., memory, attributes, Hit Points, S.D.C., skills, etc).
The first thing I note here is that "The usual limitations and abilities still apply." To clarify that, I went back to the other Metamorphosis spells, and found a few common elements:
- Metamorphosis: Animal: As the animal, the character gets all the inherent abilities and defenses that animal form may offer, but retains his own ability to speak, memory, S.D.C, and Hit Points. It then goes on to list damage values for various animal features, speeds of various animals, and general animal special abilities
- Metamorphosis: Human: The ultimate disguise, the character can change his height, weight, age, hair color, hair length, skin color, gender, and features. [...] The metamorphosis process only changes the appearance of the body. The transformed person retains his own voice, memory, skills, and attributes.
- Metamorphosis: Insect: In insect form, the mage retains his own I.Q., memory, knowledge, Hit Points, and S.D.C. It then goes on to list damage values for various insect abilities, speeds of various insects, and general insect special abilities
So, after reviewing all that, these are my questions (the first three lead into the fourth):
1. Would metamorphosis into a creature with an Armor Rating (like a rhino or elephant) grant the caster that same Armor Rating while in that form?
2. Since metamorphosis into a creature which has a higher speed allows the caster to have an increased speed, does the same hold true for creatures which would have a high Physical Strength, such as a gorilla or a tiger?
3. Would metamorphosis into an animal that is a M.D.C. being on Rifts Earth (such as a dinosaur), cause the casters S.D.C. and Hit Points to become M.D.C. along with receiving all the creatures natural attacks and abilities (bites, claws, speed, enhanced senses, etcetera)?
4. Since the spell specifically mentions that the caster does NOT get a supernatural creature's abilities, does that mean the caster DOES get the abilities of non-supernatural creatures? More specifically, if Metamorphosis: Superior is used to change into a D-Bee or Alien, will the caster get that race's abilities and powers, similar to how the caster gets an animal's abilities? Would this include enhanced strength, endurance, and resistance to damage (M.D.C.), and other abilities?
I welcome any insight and thoughts anyone can offer on this. Thank you.
Re: Metamorphosis Spells
Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:23 pm
by Shark_Force
1) i'd say yes. but not any extra SDC associated with the armour; the caster retains his own hit points.
2) i'd say no. metamorphosis does not change your strength. or at least, it doesn't for any supernatural creature that uses it, such as dragons.
3) no. he retains his own hit points. that's one of the limitations.
4) some of them, yes. he would not, for example, gain a jungle elf's major psionics or ability to use certain biomancy abilities, or any of the skills, for example. however, if he assumed the form of a race that can jump really far, or fly, he would gain those abilities. essentially, if it's a raw physical characteristic other than hit points or SDC (or physical attributes other than Spd and PB) it would be gained. if it's something that requires training, or would be supernatural in nature, it would not be gained (such as defences against magic or psionics that aren't caused from pure physical traits, eg if turned a plant-based alien would probably be immune to flesh to stone because it has no flesh, but if turned into those bird-like creatures from rifts atlantis would not gain any extra defence).
Re: Metamorphosis Spells
Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 9:27 pm
by Nekira Sudacne
1: Yes, you have all the natural features
2: No, PS is uneffected, only speed
3. No, the spell only retains SDC values. it's the same way taking the form of an elephant won't give you hundreds of SDC.
4. Yes, you can get natural abilities, such as nightvision, natural ambedxtriousness, ect.
Re: Metamorphosis Spells
Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 10:14 pm
by drewkitty ~..~
Glistam wrote:1. Would metamorphosis into a creature with an Armor Rating (like a rhino or elephant) grant the caster that same Armor Rating while in that form? (As per meta-animal, yes.)
2. Since metamorphosis into a creature which has a higher speed allows the caster to have an increased speed, does the same hold true for creatures which would have a high Physical Strength, such as a gorilla or a tiger? (The target of the meta would have the same general abilities as the animal they were transformed into. as per meta a)
3. Would metamorphosis into an animal that is a M.D.C. being on Rifts Earth (such as a dinosaur), cause the casters S.D.C. and Hit Points to become M.D.C. along with receiving all the creatures natural attacks and abilities (bites, claws, speed, enhanced senses, etcetera)?(would retain their HP/SDC if the meta target was HP/SDC.)
4. Since the spell specifically mentions that the caster does NOT get a supernatural creature's abilities, does that mean the caster DOES get the abilities of non-supernatural creatures? More specifically, if Metamorphosis: Superior is used to change into a D-Bee or Alien, will the caster get that race's abilities and powers, similar to how the caster gets an animal's abilities? Would this include enhanced strength, endurance, and resistance to damage (M.D.C.), and other abilities?
(limited to their physical abilities, yes.)
I welcome any insight and thoughts anyone can offer on this. Thank you.
Re: Metamorphosis Spells
Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 12:40 am
by Mercdog
Pretty much agree with everybody so far, but I might allow a metamorphed character shifting into a stronger form to gain Augmented PS. His P.S. attribute would be unchanged, just bumped up to Augmented level, and no further.
Re: Metamorphosis Spells
Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 11:38 am
by Glistam
This has been very helpful so far, but I'm confused as to why an Armor Rating would be allowed, when MDC would not? Here's two examples, trying to tie this all together:
Example #1. Using Metamorphosis: Superior to change into a Grackle Tooth D-Bee (WB30, pg 97). The Grackle Tooth is not a supernatural being as far as I know, but if so, then substitute for your favorite non-supernatural D-Bee with similar statistics.
1. The Grackle Tooth has Supernatural P.S. and P.E., so the metamorphed character would have his own P.S. and P.E., but raised to supernatural for the duration of the spell?
2. He would get all the natural abilities (Horror/Awe factor, MDC bite attack and prehensile tail (+1 attack))?
3. His hit points and sdc do not change (as per every spell, no argument here), and instead of those values becoming MDC, he gains the natural armor rating of 9 that the book says they would have on a SDC world, even though it's an MDC world?
Example #2. Using metamorphosis: Animal or Metamorphosis: Superior to change into a Panthera-Tereon animal/monster (WB14, pg 155). The Panthera-Tereon is not a supernatural creature as far as I know, but if so, then substitute for your favorite non-supernatural animal/monster with similar statistics.
1. The Panthera-Tereon has Supernatural P.S. and P.E., so the metamorphed character would have his own P.S. and P.E., but raised to supernatural for the duration of the spell?
2. His speed would be increased, he would get all the natural abilities and attacks (including damage values), and the horror factor.
3. His hit points and SDC do not change (as per every spell, no argument here), and instead of those values becoming MDC, he gains the armor rating of 11 that the book says they would have on a SDC world, even though its an MDC world?
Thanks for your insight and thoughts so far.
Re: Metamorphosis Spells
Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 12:36 pm
by Nekira Sudacne
Example 1:
1. No, you do not get supernatural PS or PE, even if the creature your turning into would have them naturally, the spell cannot replicate that level of ability.
2. yes
3. yes
Example 2:
1. No. It is impossible to get supernatural PS and PE through use of anymetamorphos spell. the spell cannot grant that level of ability for the same reason they can't grant MDC.
2. yes.
3. yes
Re: Metamorphosis Spells
Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 1:34 pm
by Subjugator
I'd think that the metamorphosis dragon spell would give supernatural PS and PE, since it's a spell of legend. I've not read it recently, but that's a suspicion.
Re: Metamorphosis Spells
Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 2:16 pm
by Killer Cyborg
Glistam wrote:In a Rifts game I'm playing in, my character received an item that allows him to perform Metamorphosis: Superior. At first I didn't think much on it. Then, I started really reviewing the spell (and the other metamorphosis spells it encompasses), and now I fear I'm thinking too much on it!
Metamorphosis: Superior wrote:This incantation enables the spell caster to transform himself into any real, living creature: animal, human, D-Bee, insect, fish or whatever. The usual limitations and abilities still apply. The mage can also transform himself to resemble a supernatural creature, but does not possess any of its powers or abilities, only his own normal, human abilities (I.Q., memory, attributes, Hit Points, S.D.C., skills, etc).
The first thing I note here is that "The usual limitations and abilities still apply." To clarify that, I went back to the other Metamorphosis spells, and found a few common elements:
- Metamorphosis: Animal: As the animal, the character gets all the inherent abilities and defenses that animal form may offer, but retains his own ability to speak, memory, S.D.C, and Hit Points. It then goes on to list damage values for various animal features, speeds of various animals, and general animal special abilities
- Metamorphosis: Human: The ultimate disguise, the character can change his height, weight, age, hair color, hair length, skin color, gender, and features. [...] The metamorphosis process only changes the appearance of the body. The transformed person retains his own voice, memory, skills, and attributes.
- Metamorphosis: Insect: In insect form, the mage retains his own I.Q., memory, knowledge, Hit Points, and S.D.C. It then goes on to list damage values for various insect abilities, speeds of various insects, and general insect special abilities
So, after reviewing all that, these are my questions (the first three lead into the fourth):
1. Would metamorphosis into a creature with an Armor Rating (like a rhino or elephant) grant the caster that same Armor Rating while in that form?
Yes.
This would fall under the banner of "the character gets all the inherent defenses that animal form may offer."
Unless the AR comes from the supernatural powers of a supernatural creature (or, presumably, a Creature of Magic), in which case it would fall under the banner of "does not possess any of its powers or abilities, only his own normal, human abilities"
2. Since metamorphosis into a creature which has a higher speed allows the caster to have an increased speed, does the same hold true for creatures which would have a high Physical Strength, such as a gorilla or a tiger?
Yes.
This would fall under the banner of "the character gets all the inherent abilities that animal form may offer."
3. Would metamorphosis into an animal that is a M.D.C. being on Rifts Earth (such as a dinosaur), cause the casters S.D.C. and Hit Points to become M.D.C. along with receiving all the creatures natural attacks and abilities (bites, claws, speed, enhanced senses, etcetera)?
No.
That would fall under the banner of "the character retains his own ability to speak, memory, S.D.C, and Hit Points."
In order to retain his own SDC and HIt Points, the MDC of the new form would have to be ignored.
4. Since the spell specifically mentions that the caster does NOT get a supernatural creature's abilities, does that mean the caster DOES get the abilities of non-supernatural creatures? More specifically, if Metamorphosis: Superior is used to change into a D-Bee or Alien, will the caster get that race's abilities and powers, similar to how the caster gets an animal's abilities? Would this include enhanced strength, endurance, and resistance to damage (M.D.C.), and other abilities?
Only in the case where the powers and abilities are natural. If they are supernatural, psionic, or magical, then they would not be able to be used.
So if the character turns into a Dragon, where the dragon's Supernatural PS is clearly supernatural in origin, the character would not get the dragon's Supernatural PS. Although he might well get to use the dragon's PS score, it would not be supernatural.
On the other hand, if the character transformed into a creature that had "Supernatural PS" that was NOT supernatural in origin, that strength would be accessible to the character.
Unfortunately, it is very often unclear when Supernatural PS is in fact Supernatural, and when it is just used as a loose term to describe something that is very strong, but not actually supernatural in origin.
(For example, the mutant insects on Mars)
Re: Metamorphosis Spells
Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 3:12 am
by Shark_Force
@ killer cyborg:
i disagree that PS of any sort is changed. as i said, most every creature i've seen that has supernatural PS retains both the supernatural status of their PS and the specific number when they use metamorphosis effects. there are even specific examples of a dragon accidentally smearing someone with a punch while in human form as a result of it.
on the other side of things, i am unaware of any specific examples of any sort of metamorphosis where the person (or whatever) gains the PS, supernatural or otherwise, of the creature they transform into.
Re: Metamorphosis Spells
Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 3:50 pm
by eliakon
The example of totally mundane 'supernatural' PS that comes to mind is something like a mutant animal with Beastly or Crushing PS, or a Eugenics character from HU.
Re: Metamorphosis Spells
Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 8:41 pm
by Killer Cyborg
Shark_Force wrote:@ killer cyborg:
i disagree that PS of any sort is changed. as i said, most every creature i've seen that has supernatural PS retains both the supernatural status of their PS and the specific number when they use metamorphosis effects. there are even specific examples of a dragon accidentally smearing someone with a punch while in human form as a result of it.
on the other side of things, i am unaware of any specific examples of any sort of metamorphosis where the person (or whatever) gains the PS, supernatural or otherwise, of the creature they transform into.
Dragon metamorphosis specifies that the dragon is still a dragon, so it retains its strength, and it does not acquire any of the abilities of the animal that it looks like.
The spells, on the other hand, DO have the caster acquire the (non-supernatural) abilities of the animal that it looks like.
Another case for comparison is Vampire Metamorphosis. Vampires are specifically granted the special abilities of their new form. Note that the vampires' wolf forms and bat forms are described, and they have their own damages listed that are different from the vampires' normal attacks, and that are not affected by the vampires' Supernatural PS.
In the original VK book, it specifies that the damage inflicted in these forms is SDC damage, though the revised version neglects to specify.
Re: Metamorphosis Spells
Posted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 11:40 pm
by Shark_Force
Killer Cyborg wrote:Shark_Force wrote:@ killer cyborg:
i disagree that PS of any sort is changed. as i said, most every creature i've seen that has supernatural PS retains both the supernatural status of their PS and the specific number when they use metamorphosis effects. there are even specific examples of a dragon accidentally smearing someone with a punch while in human form as a result of it.
on the other side of things, i am unaware of any specific examples of any sort of metamorphosis where the person (or whatever) gains the PS, supernatural or otherwise, of the creature they transform into.
Dragon metamorphosis specifies that the dragon is still a dragon, so it retains its strength, and it does not acquire any of the abilities of the animal that it looks like.
The spells, on the other hand, DO have the caster acquire the (non-supernatural) abilities of the animal that it looks like.
Another case for comparison is Vampire Metamorphosis. Vampires are specifically granted the special abilities of their new form. Note that the vampires' wolf forms and bat forms are described, and they have their own damages listed that are different from the vampires' normal attacks, and that are not affected by the vampires' Supernatural PS.
In the original VK book, it specifies that the damage inflicted in these forms is SDC damage, though the revised version neglects to specify.
huh. well, fair enough. who needs consistency? that would make things too easy.
Re: Metamorphosis Spells
Posted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 7:27 pm
by Tor
This thread reminds me of a discussion regarding whether or not Iron Wood (which makes wood into MDC) is still active if you change wood into a living creature.
Re: Metamorphosis Spells
Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:28 am
by SAMASzero
Tor wrote:This thread reminds me of a discussion regarding whether or not Iron Wood (which makes wood into MDC) is still active if you change wood into a living creature.
I would say yes, due to the spell "Summon and Create Clay Animals" which flatly stated the effects of casting the spell then transmuting the results with "X-to-Y" spells.
As for this spell, I honestly would let them take any Stats, SDC, and the like from whatever they transform into. Even MDC beings. I would probably jack up the PPE cost accordingly, though. I suppose that spell is due for a rewrite.