You Sunk My Battleship!

[Zamion138]

USS Ticonderoga vs Spulgorth Slaver Mother Ship

For some reason they dont have their full fleets with them and its just their on board crew and compliments.
Starting 500 miles apart who wins?
And GO!!!!

[Greyaxe]

USS Ticonderoga.

[Athos]

USS Ticonderoga vs Spulgorth Slaver Mother Ship

For some reason they dont have their full fleets with them and its just their on board crew and compliments.
Starting 500 miles apart who wins?
And GO!!!!

What book is the mother ship in? The Ticonderoga is WB 7, Underseas page 128.

[Zamion138]

USS Ticonderoga vs Spulgorth Slaver Mother Ship

For some reason they dont have their full fleets with them and its just their on board crew and compliments.
Starting 500 miles apart who wins?
And GO!!!!

What book is the mother ship in? The Ticonderoga is WB 7, Underseas page 128.

South america 1 has the mother ship, for the oceans.

[Eclipse]

Best two out of three?;)

[Zamion138]

I honestly think it would be the mother ship, way more cruise missiles, tougher crew, magic, if im rembering right much faster.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

I give this to the Ticonderoga. If you remove "supporting fleets" the Ticonderoga still gets two companion subs (that are part of the ship and can detatch); its main armaments can fire underwater at surface targets (same for its subs) and it embarks WAAAAAYYYY more troops, power armor, and air-subs than the Slaver ship.

Honestly, it could loiter deep enough and just shoot the Mothership to bits with its main guns, and the only thing the Mothership could reply with would be the medium-range torpedos, which the Ticonderoga has a VERY good chance to shoot down, with its laser-variant on the CIWS... and releasing its Kittani troops, only a fraction of which are equipped for underwater operations, whereas the Ticonderoga has entire squadrons of attack air-subs and underwater-equipped power armor troops.

[glitterboy2098]

the ticonderoga is 2x longer, 50% wider, and as tall.. the Tico is pretty much 4x larger than the Mothership is. and while the mothership has some truely massive long range missile batteries, the Tico carries as many planes as 8 Nimitz class supercarriers + over a regiment of combined arms aquatic, amphibious, and air mobile troops. plus is has almost as much more direct fire damage output than the slaver mothership..

this really isn't a contest.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

the ticonderoga is 2x longer, 50% wider, and as tall.. the Tico is pretty much 4x larger than the Mothership is. and while the mothership has some truely massive long range missile batteries, the Tico carries as many planes as 8 Nimitz class supercarriers + over a regiment of combined arms aquatic, amphibious, and air mobile troops. plus is has almost as much more direct fire damage output than the slaver mothership..

this really isn't a contest.

The missiles on the Mothership are irrelevant - the Ticonderoga doesn't even have to surface to fight this battle. It can loiter 3-5000 ft deep and a mile+ away and blast the thing with its main batteries, and the only weapon the Mothership can reply with is its medium range torpedos. Even if every single torpedo hits and does full damage (hardly likely), it cant sink the Ticonderoga. Meanwhile, the Ticonderoga also has two parasite ships that are also firing and have missiles they can fire in reply while submerged... and its entire (much more massive) complement of troops that are all capable of submerged operation.

I agree, not a contest at all.

[glitterboy2098]

and half the Tico's fighter wing is Manta Air-subs, which can launch under water and attack as either submarines or rocket up past the surface to become supersonic jet fighters..

also, i'd noticed the same weakness in the mothership.. something most of the splugorth wet navy shares. i was just pointing out that even if both sides were dumb enough to engage on the surface, the tico is gonna rip the mothership a new one becuase the matchup is nowhere near fair..

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Disagree on the parasite ships. The mothership has slots to hold a completely separate design, because it is a support ship. The two parasite subs are PART of the TIconderoga.

Not that it matters, as even if we discard the parasite ships, the Ticonderoga is completely capable of dismantling the Mothership without ever putting itself in real danger. The missiles are irrelevant - they cant hit a submerged target.

The only thing the Mothership can reply with is medium-range torpedos. It cant sink the Ticonderoga even if every single torpedo hits and does full damage.

Loiter at about 5,000ft depth about 2-3 miles away and just shoot the Mothership to pieces with the main batteries. No need to waste missiles or torpedos.

The standard loadout of a Slaver Mothership is listed, and has less than a third of the manpower available and most of them are Manling Power armor... not exactly an overwhelming amount of firepower there.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Impervious to energy...suddenly those heavy ion cannons aren't doing squat to that Mothership...

Impervious to Ocean Depths...suddenly those power armor, robots, and submersible vehicles, that are caster than Tico, are landing on her deck, regardless of depth. More than that, either Tico comes up to a depth her own suits can handle, inviting that many more enemy units to engage her, or she tires to deal with these boarders well below the crush depth of her own Semper Fi units. The best par this that these boarders didn't show up on Sonar until they actually touched down on the hull and opened fire, so they are inside the Tico's defense perimeter. If they breach the outer hull, the inner hull might not hold, and if they breach the inner hold, the internal hatches aren't going to be close to holding back that sort of pressure. Heck, those same depth charges that weren't getting down to the Tico before, are now able to make it with relative ease, all it takes is a modified fuse to handle multiple mile depths, the spell will cover it all otherwise. There are also a handful of Atlantean Kydian, Kittani, and TW options in Underseas that would make a real fight of this one too. What it comes down to is that you can't count the Atlantean ship out, because their magic is a real game changer, and they are likely to have scads and scads of casters about.

The Ship doesn't have impervious to energy (in fact its never appeared on anything that large), so im not sure where you magiced that one up out of. Depth charges go down, not miles away. The depth of the Semper-Fi is 1 mile - which is where i was suggesting they stage at. Those options aren't the standard loadout of the slaver, either... thought we were keeping this purely standard? Honestly, almost nothing you've said makes the least bit of sense.

Worse come to worse, using the new armor absorbs all penetrating rule, you toss a potential slave in the way of incoming energy blast and take pictures for a book back in Atlantis...

Metagaming at it's finest. Im done with this conversation.

[Subjugator]

Impervious to energy...suddenly those heavy ion cannons aren't doing squat to that Mothership...

Impervious to Ocean Depths...suddenly those power armor, robots, and submersible vehicles, that are caster than Tico, are landing on her deck, regardless of depth.

Can they maneuver underwater?

/Sub

[Zamion138]

Impervious to energy...suddenly those heavy ion cannons aren't doing squat to that Mothership...

Impervious to Ocean Depths...suddenly those power armor, robots, and submersible vehicles, that are caster than Tico, are landing on her deck, regardless of depth.

Can they maneuver underwater?

/Sub

It would probaly depend on wich PA's they are in, i could see the snake ones being able to but the half horse armor no, ....im refering to the non overlords and power lords, i think i read something about the western coast of atlantis being patroled by them as aquatic life is their natrual habitat.

[Blue_Lion]

Most mages do not use ocean magic. Are those power armor you listed the standard load out or just what you whould bring to the fight you are changing the loadout to make it seam one sided. They are talking about what is standard.

The size and amror of large oganics whould be detectible with sonar ping.

Impervious to energy self or others by touch. So the ship seams to be out of the question.

Lets see 960 manling power armor, 240 over lords in over lord power armor, 240 blind warror women, 60 slavers, 6 cobservitirs 4-6 morex or volen metzla and 60 powerlords in power armor(they use over lord power armor as it is the armor the class with).
The manling power armor is not a underwater armor so will be useles.
The dragon dreadnot is not rated for underwater and most of its weapons whould be useless.
Overlord power armor used by over lords and power lords is not rated for or equiped with underwater spells.

So athou every thing you listed is awsome it is not the standard load out, what one whould expect to be avaible on a daily bases. Powerlords and over lords use overlord power armor.
Basicaly your abilty to cast sustained underwater spells is for any sizble force is nill, and you lack the depth tolorance to reach the tic. It is a nasty surface combat ship but was not loaded out to fight underwater openets.
Impercious to ocen deptsh 75PPR 10 min per level of caster and is for charters it does not apply to Power armor (unless included by a TW.)

So yes if you drop the standard load out and toss in the best choice you do have some nasty stuff but this is about standard loadout. With stadard loadout as listed in the book the slaver barge is not equiped to deal with a underwater foe. Even if you had 60 under water power armor for the power lords the sheir number of PA and jet/subs will whipe them out.

[Blue_Lion]

The slaver ship vs the Ticonderoga isn't a good match. A much, much better match would be the Splurgoth Sea Skimmer for WB 7, It has all of the mages and underwater troops you're looking for.

Think most people agree, only ones that are discarding the standard load out of the Slaver mother ship think it stands a chance. The slaver mothership is a surface warfare suport ship, while the Ticonderoga is a subersmable carrier super weapon.

[Subjugator]

They're underwater power armor? Hmm...before I just say that, let me check and see if I can find my book...

War Urchin swims at 10, thrusters at 60, and Swims as a Fish: superior at Speed 20. So the underwater thruster option is faster than the Tico, and the others are basically silent to sonar, presuming they can close the distance of course.

Destroyer is more or less the same, it only swims at 8 itself, but the other two are the same.

War Fish is much faster at 100 mph

War Crab, the heavy of the lot, is too slow, so it would have to be an intercepting approach.

Kydian Powerlords could use similar means, including an underwater thruster pack.

Any Water Elementalists of Ocean Wizard (what I mistakenly called a Sea Mage earlier) could use their magic, but speed would be an issue there.

Otherwise most of these are RPA Basic/Elite, many listing bonuses. War urchin and Destroyer get a +1 dodge, while War Fish gets a +3 autododge, all in addition to any other bonuses such as those gained form Swim as a Fish and such.

Most of these are a bit faster then Semper Fi, and roughly about as fast as Manta Rays are.

All of these are out of Underseas, and perfectly viable responses to the Tico...though I note she has a crap ton of troops aboard. Including something like 1,120 Semper Fi PAs, and *snickers* 40 Glitterboys. Imagine what a boom gun does to stuff underwater? Less range, maybe even less damage, but the sonic boom would be literally shattering...and the resulting reaction as the Glitterboy is sent jetting in the opposite direction for a few handfuls of yards would be hysterical!

Also, the MEWs, LEWs, Underwater Sled, UB-300 Mini Sub, and both Aqua-tech 50 and 100 deep sea PA suits are listed as being produced by multiple parties, including Atlantis in each case. So that's anther potential list of options, though I would expect that to be limited to their human slave force...a sort of Marine Corps/French Foreign Legion meets the Janissary concept if you will.

In reference to that last part, I don't imagine the PA units listed in Atlantis see a lot of use there, save for perhaps the the Hover Land Skimmer and Hover Jet units...maybe. I can see them being useful, but not really for underwater, though they could serve there I guess. An aquatically adapted variant might work though, one with an enclosed pilots compartment perhaps. Alternatively, both they and the K-Universal would function fine with a strap on underwater pack, though they would be no where near as powerful really.

Heh, sick thought, there isn't anything I ca see that would stop a Dragon Dreadnought from performing as an underwater combatant...ick...

Is that the standard crew and loadout for that vessel? I suspect not.

[Blue_Lion]

They're underwater power armor? Hmm...before I just say that, let me check and see if I can find my book...

War Urchin swims at 10, thrusters at 60, and Swims as a Fish: superior at Speed 20. So the underwater thruster option is faster than the Tico, and the others are basically silent to sonar, presuming they can close the distance of course.

Destroyer is more or less the same, it only swims at 8 itself, but the other two are the same.

War Fish is much faster at 100 mph

War Crab, the heavy of the lot, is too slow, so it would have to be an intercepting approach.

Kydian Powerlords could use similar means, including an underwater thruster pack.

Any Water Elementalists of Ocean Wizard (what I mistakenly called a Sea Mage earlier) could use their magic, but speed would be an issue there.

Otherwise most of these are RPA Basic/Elite, many listing bonuses. War urchin and Destroyer get a +1 dodge, while War Fish gets a +3 autododge, all in addition to any other bonuses such as those gained form Swim as a Fish and such.

Most of these are a bit faster then Semper Fi, and roughly about as fast as Manta Rays are.

All of these are out of Underseas, and perfectly viable responses to the Tico...though I note she has a crap ton of troops aboard. Including something like 1,120 Semper Fi PAs, and *snickers* 40 Glitterboys. Imagine what a boom gun does to stuff underwater? Less range, maybe even less damage, but the sonic boom would be literally shattering...and the resulting reaction as the Glitterboy is sent jetting in the opposite direction for a few handfuls of yards would be hysterical!

Also, the MEWs, LEWs, Underwater Sled, UB-300 Mini Sub, and both Aqua-tech 50 and 100 deep sea PA suits are listed as being produced by multiple parties, including Atlantis in each case. So that's anther potential list of options, though I would expect that to be limited to their human slave force...a sort of Marine Corps/French Foreign Legion meets the Janissary concept if you will.

In reference to that last part, I don't imagine the PA units listed in Atlantis see a lot of use there, save for perhaps the the Hover Land Skimmer and Hover Jet units...maybe. I can see them being useful, but not really for underwater, though they could serve there I guess. An aquatically adapted variant might work though, one with an enclosed pilots compartment perhaps. Alternatively, both they and the K-Universal would function fine with a strap on underwater pack, though they would be no where near as powerful really.

Heh, sick thought, there isn't anything I ca see that would stop a Dragon Dreadnought from performing as an underwater combatant...ick...

Is that the standard crew and loadout for that vessel? I suspect not.

My post right after his list the standard layout. But again for clairty.

PG. 154 of southamreica list the standard troops as 960 manling power armor, 240 over lords in over lord power armor, 240 blind warror women, 60 slavers, 6 conservitirs 4-6 morex or volen metzla and 60 powerlords in power armor(they use over lord power armor as it is the armor the class with)

Even if you could justify the 60 powerlords in one of the other power armor that is still only 60 they whould get swarmed down.

[Subjugator]

So you're assuming a loadout that doesn't appear in any book, spells that aren't given by the book, and armor options that are not noted as being available to the ship in any book. While it's reasonable to assume that if one is crafting an adventure, when one is discussing a 'which would win' scenario, one goes with the rules as written (RAW). The rules as written do not have much of what you have described as the response.

So in short, it's not an accurate portrayal.

/Sub

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

COnsidering that the New Navy fights Splugorth Slavers and Horune Pirates near-constantly, the assumption that they HAVENT sunk a few dozen of these things is somewhat silly.

[kaid]

A fight without the full fleets between a mothership and the Tico would be a bit one sided for the TICO. The motherships troops may be able to damage the TICO but most of its main weapons are surface to surface or surface to air. The mothership has an adequate amount of underwater based weapons but not enough to go one on one vs a ship like the TICO.

Now I would take the mother ship vs just about any surface navy vessel you care to name and it would likely win but vs a totally underwater opponent like the TICO especially one with the insane amount of power armor/and aquatic air assets it has.

In a more real engagement though it would be a lot more even. A mothership is much more likely to have a fleet complement with it while the tico is much more likely to be operating solo with only its parasite subs with it. In that kind of engagement the fight is much more in question.

[kaid]

One thing I wanted to know was about the impervious to energy spell. In all but a few cases vehicle available enchantments are listed in their description. The largest ship that I can recall having impervious to energy was the UWW shadowbolt fighters. If it was available for ships the size of the mother ship I would expect all the UWW ships to have it listed for them.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

One thing I wanted to know was about the impervious to energy spell. In all but a few cases vehicle available enchantments are listed in their description. The largest ship that I can recall having impervious to energy was the UWW shadowbolt fighters. If it was available for ships the size of the mother ship I would expect all the UWW ships to have it listed for them.

Thats rather what i was thinking. It would certainly give the UWW a gigantic advantage in fleet combat, since most heavy long range armaments in TG and CCW fleets tend to be energy emplacements. Might even work on missiles depending on how your GM thinks Antimatter works.

[kaid]

That was my thinking. If it was as simple as having a crewman cast impervious to energy for something the size of the mothership you would think that the UWW ships would all have it up constantly and be listed in their descriptions because that is a humongous benefit.

[Zamion138]

I would not allow as a GM for a spell to be cast once and have it effect the whole ship.
if you made some ritual casting version that cost alot more ppe maybe but it would be a spell onto its self. for such a massive ship to get a spell under 100 ppe to make it immune to lasers and ions seems a bit over the top.

for a ship that sized Id make it cost at least 2k in ppe.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

I would not allow as a GM for a spell to be cast once and have it effect the whole ship.
if you made some ritual casting version that cost alot more ppe maybe but it would be a spell onto its self. for such a massive ship to get a spell under 100 ppe to make it immune to lasers and ions seems a bit over the top.

for a ship that sized Id make it cost at least 2k in ppe.

The High Lords/Conservators/Metzla on board could pay that without thinking.. .not to mention the possibility of PPE battery symbiotes/bio-organisms. The PPE batteries in UWW ships have tens of thousands of PPE sometimes.

I just wouldn't allow it at all; it isn't remotely balanced (and that's rather supported by the fact that no large vessels have ever been seen in a canon source with this ability).

[Zamion138]

I would not allow as a GM for a spell to be cast once and have it effect the whole ship.
if you made some ritual casting version that cost alot more ppe maybe but it would be a spell onto its self. for such a massive ship to get a spell under 100 ppe to make it immune to lasers and ions seems a bit over the top.

for a ship that sized Id make it cost at least 2k in ppe.

The High Lords/Conservators/Metzla on board could pay that without thinking.. .not to mention the possibility of PPE battery symbiotes/bio-organisms. The PPE batteries in UWW ships have tens of thousands of PPE sometimes.

I just wouldn't allow it at all; it isn't remotely balanced (and that's rather supported by the fact that no large vessels have ever been seen in a canon source with this ability).

Ill give you that.

[kaid]

Even for 2k PPE if it was possible for a ship to get immunity to energy one would expect all capital ships in phase world to either have it or for most of the ships to mount mostly kinetic energy weapons. Just look at the shadowbolt fighter it is one of the few vehicles stated to have immunity to energy and it is a huge balancing factor for it and pointed out. As a fighter it overall is pretty lack luster but due to its immunity to energy it is now a good match for other factions main combat fighters.

That said even if the mothership can go immunity to energy at best the fight is a stalemate or the TICO still wins. The motherships underwater weapons simply are not sufficient to destroy the Tico even if everything hits and does full damage. Even with the ideal layout of underseas armor/equipment for the splugorth minions it is still going to be pretty much a wash due to the insane amounts of troops/fighters/power armor the tico has.

I don't see how the mothership by itself with only its own compliment could bring the Tico to bear long enough to destroy if the Tico was overmatched it has a much greater depth capability and can simply go below and beyond the weapon range of the splugorth.

[kaid]

I would agree you would never really see a 1v1 fight even though it would be pretty epic. The splugorth mothership has its limitations and 1v1 it would have serious problems but given how the splugorth work it is likely they operate the mother ships like the US currently operates carriers. Lots of picket ships and subs scouting and protecting it as it moves. The new navy having has just the one big sub and a limited number of their next biggest class of subs so it is unlikely unless the spluggorth were sending a major attack against a target the new navy felt it had to defend that the Tico would engage a mothership.

Pick off smaller spluggorth fleets and slavers sure but I doubt baring some target being attacked they had to defend that the new navy would risk engaging a major spluggorth fleet unless it had no choice.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

I thought there were in fact large ships with the Impervious to Energy spell, but as I appear to be wrong about that, remove it from the table then. At least for the ship itself. If a space fighter can use it, so can most power armor and 20-30' robots, making them immune to the heavy ion guns and point defense lasers minimum.

The space fighter doesn't "use" it - it's a Technowizard ship, from the keel out, designed with Technowizard systems, including the Impervious to Energy built right in during the construction of the fighter.

The power-armors presented cant "use" impervious to energy because they aren't built with it. It isn't something you can just "bolt on" to an existing completely-technological design like the Kittani power armors.

The actual spell itself is also vague, because it says "self"; does self extend to power armor? For a ship or TW armor/power armor built with the spell, the item is considered to be casting the spell, so it becomes "self" - but it can only be cast on others as a *ritual*, not an invocation. Im not sure (given the completely vague description) if you could cast it on a vehicle and not a person if not done through technowizardy.

Im fine with saying "sure", but rituals take a long time. During an engagement, they could never protect a significant enough portion of their troops to be meaningful.

I also completely disagree with your estimation of Splynncryth's attitudes, particularly given that it almost diametrically contradicts the written material. The loss of a mothership, in the long run (even at 100 billion "credits") isn't worth spending tens of trillions prosecuting a war that produces absolutely NO material or financial gain. Unless they were systematically waging a war on him, as opposed to merely destroying/attacking the ships when they catch them in the act of slaving, the loss of the occasional ship (mothership, raider ship, whatever) would be written off as the cost of doing business - thats if he even knows what happened to them in the first place. Its a big ocean... stuff goes missing all the time without reporting back to fleet command (and i imagine this obtains for everyone who has a fleet out there, not just Splynncryth's forces; without real-time satellite communications, naval fleets/engagements probably play out a LOT like they did during the time of wooden sailing ships - a lone ship or small squadron gets caught out by an enemy and is sunk, and the first time your fleet command has an inkling something is wrong is when your next patrols top gets around to sending a 'hey these guys never arrived' message back to you in the mail.)

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

And then i looked at the stats for the air-sub.

The battle just got stunningly more one-sided, if the Tico was the agressor in our little engagement. The Slaver would have about 30-60 seconds to realize it was doomed before it was wiped clean off the ocean as a few hundred Manta's breached the water a mile out and single-fire salvo'd their 1800 long-range missiles into her. No possible practical point defense to be mounted, defenses swamped. at least 1500 of them will hit (and im being hillariously generous on the motherships behalf regarding point defense).

Lets see... (we wont even use the ones labeled "nuclear" - just proton torpedos)

1500 x (6d6x10) = 9000d6x10. Well go with low-average and say you just roll 2's across the board.
A paltry 180,000 MDC.

Edit:
My numbers on Manta's are off - "only" 240 on board the Tico. Ill try to update the numbers later. It's still going to be north of 100,000 MDC. Hell, they could go in armed with MRMs instead - AP MRMs (at only 3d6x10 each, but 8 per instead of 6 per bird) would do the job just as cleanly for far less materiel cost.

[keir451]

Let's not forget the Ticonderoga's Captain; A man with, possibly, more sea combat experience than the majority of the crews on board the Slaver Mothership, plus a sizeable contingent of Marines and Navy SEALs, some of whom are, most assuredly, Sea Titans similar to Nemo. All totaled the Ticonderoga has more than enough firepower and personnel to take on a Splugorth Mothership and win, IIRC the Ticonderoga has, indeed, done such a thing before.

[SAMASzero]

Rifts Underseas Page 109. This battle already happened. The Ticonderoga won.

I wonder who would win in a battle against an NGR Poseidon, though.

[glitterboy2098]

Rifts Underseas Page 109. This battle already happened. The Ticonderoga won.

I wonder who would win in a battle against an NGR Poseidon, though.

that one would be closer using the book loadouts, but the Tico would eventually win in a NN v. NGR match of that sort.

the Poseidon and the Tico are similar in size, but their roles are very different. the Tico is a super-carrier as its primary role, with amphibious operations as a secondary.

the Posi is an Amphibious warfare vessel, first and foremost. it's a LST, a landing ship (tank). it carries just enough aquatic units for defense and special ops, and enough flying units to establish airsupport, but the vast majority of the forces it carries is infantry, robots, and hover units to take and hold a beach in an amphibious assault.

again, it would be the Tico's airwing that carries the day. the Posi can't put up enough flying units able to hold off the Tico's airwing in the sky, or enough aquatic units to hold it off in the water.

[glitterboy2098]

a Poseidon ultimately is just a big box for carrying troops. presumably they expected to surround it with tons of those patrol subs and transforming fighter subs when deployed for Operation Sea Storm.

it's the fact they don't have a decent attack sub to escort it, and the fact the Poseidon keeps getting turned into some kind of long range exploration ship prior to Op:SeaStorm that is the real issue.

[Akashic Soldier]

I'd like to run this in the chat room to find out for sure. Are there two experienced gamers that would like to be volunteers (Killer Cyborg)?

If so, work it all out amongst yourself and shoot me a PM. I will set up the backdrop (no one will know), stat out the landscape, etc. You guys stat out your vehicles and their captains/pilots/crews if they're not already covered in the books, and we will SEE which one would really win first hand. It will be all kinds of awesome. I'll use the Robotech soundtrack I own.

[glitterboy2098]

robotech sound track? dude, this calls for The Hunt for Red October or maybe seaQest DSV.. possibly Blue Submarine #6..

of course, if your going to run one of the scenarios, why not run all of them?
Ticonderoga Vs. Mothership
Ticonderoga Vs. Poseidon
Poseidon Vs. Mothership

man i wish i could run my updated Jörmungandr Submarine Battleship, but that isn't printed yet..

[Akashic Soldier]

robotech sound track? dude, this calls for The Hunt for Red October or maybe seaQest DSV.. possibly Blue Submarine #6..

Don't make me buy more soundtracks.

[kaid]

Rifts Underseas Page 109. This battle already happened. The Ticonderoga won.

I wonder who would win in a battle against an NGR Poseidon, though.

Hehe ya I reread my rifts underseas last night and sure enough it states in the descripton of the new navy and its enemies and allies that it had engaged a mothership and won. And on rereading it is pretty clear why I totally underestimated how many of those manta fighters that thing has. That is an incredible amount of air/water force it can deploy. With them you could unleash a missile barrage that almost no surface ship would have a chance of surviving. The enemy may kill some of the missles it may even kill many but the airwing of fighters alone = 240 manta ships the ground pounders have another 20 and one of the other divisions had 80 combined. Each one of those can mount a cruise missile or a few LRM or 8 MRM. You could totally saturate a target from a long enough range that the Tico is not even detected let alone in danger. And if some how magically the first strike does not finish the job they can come back and reload as the mantas are one of the faster things in the skies on rifts earth and the few things that could catch them in the air are unlikely to be able to follow them underwater.

[kaid]

*Immediately jumps in to defend the undedog again!!!*

*Looks the Poseidon over...*

Nope, never mind. Who ever picks the complements for these things always seems to forget about the undersea threats, and always seems to seriously underestimate the amount of point defense and anti-torpedo defenses that will be required. And why doesn't the Poseidon (and for that matter, the Tico and Mothership as well) have defenses underneath? SRT or MT defensive batteries should be a must really. That and, in Underseas they introduced NGR underwater combat units...and the Poseidon hasn't got nearly enough of them aboard. Sea Mites and Sea Bats are alright, but not really sufficient to truly provide a decent escort. And the only heavy escort they have doesn't submerge!

Well I think to some extent for all these ships a lot of the point defensive batteries are expected to be from the troop compliment. And if say for the TICO they kept back half or a third of their substantial manta force to bulk up their missile/torpedo defense they could do a pretty good job. They won't stop everything but they can cut the damage down to a reasonable level.

Still in almost all these fights the manta ship is where the Tico shines. They don't look that spectacular stat wise good speed above/below water, samas level armor so decent but not great armor. The main thing that turns them into such a deadly threat is their missile payloads they can carry and the flat out number of them the tico can carry. Their ability to go subsurface/hydroplane on the surface or fly at up to mach 1.5 makes their attack runs to launch their missiles almost impossible to defend. Radar is not going to pick up 200+ mantas hydroplaning on the surface at all until they are well within range to unleash hell on their target.

[Talavar]

On the large vessel/impervious to energy front - the Tangent space station in Fleets of the 3 Galaxies (DB13) is impervious to energy all the time. Its mass is 160 million tons, so size isn't an insurmountable issue. This is also an immobile base built in orbit of most UWW worlds at the Lagrange point space nexuses, so presumably the PPE cost is very, very high.

[kaid]

Oh ya I do recall that space station. But it is build on a nexus being fed directly by multiple ley lines and is also specifically listed. Given how huge of a defense immunity to energy is that it is probably best to assume something does not have it unless stated specifically otherwise.

[kaid]

Its so huge an advantage in fact, that the likelihood the UWW HASN'T done this in some format is vanishingly small. A cruiser sized vessel with few offensive weapons, but large PPE power cells could be a great way to protect your ships until you were ready to engage on your terms. You would have to give it a few cruise missile batteries to make it a threat the enemy felt compelled to honor and not ignore, but it would make the TGE sit up and blink. Though their most common ship is an engine with a crew pod and scads of cruise missile tubes of their own, so such a ship better have truly terrifying amounts of point defense...hmm...on second thought, this is probably a design that is specializing itself right out of a job honestly.

And all that notation on pg. 109 tells me is that the Tico got her one hot in already, and Atlantis is now going to produce countermeasures to a super submarine. It may not show up until Underseas 2 comes out, which is a planned release for sometime in mid to late 2025 or course. I also wonder what the NGR Navy is going to do when they realize there are such severe threats in the water? Their current design, while moderately admirable, is a troop transport. They need a submersible battleship to defend them when the second front jumps off in the Med. Sort of like how the New Navy needs a real submersible attack sub, Atlantis needs a real submersible warship, and the Naut'Yll need something the New Navy doesn't point fingers at and giggle at the provincials!

Oh, and the C.S., Japanese, Colombia, and Neo-Russians need something of their own too!

Query: Can anyone realistically (by Rifts values of course) think of how you would make a super cavitation based power suit WITHOUT making it transformable or using magic?

Given that in triax two it said that the new navy was helping watch the NGR's back in the sea when they were doing their deep strike operation I am pretty sure they know about the ticondaroga maybe not how tough it is but they have seen it so must have some appreciation for what is out there.


Edit the super cavitation thing is fun but it is mostly something useful for torpedos or missile like projectiles. It allows for insanely fast speeds underwater but you are still underwater so anything other than going dead straight at those speeds is likely not going to be possible. The whole concept is basically to produce immense amounts of bubbles in front of the bulk of the missile basically giving a layer of air between the missile and the water allowing it to slice through with almost no friction. Given how it functions it would be REALLY hard to design something like that which can actually turn at any sort of pace other than really slow. The advantage is once it locks on a target and goes into its sprint nothing in the water is going to be fast enough to dodge it.

Oh the other disadvantage of it is that it would be REALLY REALLY loud. This thing would be the opposite of stealthy it would be banging cymbals with giant purple unicorns not stealthy.

The other downside is once you start your sprint you are the next best thing to blind. You would either outrun or close to outrun any sonar you use and optical would be useless as well due to the bubbles.

[Zamion138]

I had to look up the word cavitation. So you mean an armor that can go really deep right, i think japan has one it goes 1.1 miles deep...wich is pretty insain.
I suppose if you made a suit that did not have air in it and was filled with liquid oxygen the depth would go up. That way youd have less compression. Ultra light mdc matrials should no buckle under the strain anyhow. The current subs and bathlesphers can go pretty deep before buckling and they are sdc. With a micro fision power source you should be able to have enough power to force gasses or liquads out to compensate for even the deepest depths,
Even make a bubble of force field like the ngr has access too that would force out from the pa or bot to compensate......
Sorry if im completly off and this is not what your talking about.

[kaid]

Super cavitation is something the soviets have been working on. Basically it means making lots of bubbles. The concept is you have a torpedo at the very front of the torpedo you have something that spews out TONS of teeny bubbles. These bubbles act as a lubricant between the water and the torpedo and if done correctly it makes the torpedo effectivly almost frictionless. This allows for potentially hypersonic speed even underwater. The downside is as mentioned once you start sprinting everybody in a 100 miles is going to hear you coming and you are damn near blind as you are going to fast for most underwater sensors to work at all.

So not so effective as a mode of transportation sure you are the fastest thing in the water but you are pretty much going in a ruler straight line/very loud and damn near blind while doing it. Not so useful for that but now look at a torpedo. The torpedo lurks in sets up its firing solution and then once at a certain range triggers the super cavitation and goes sprint mode. This sprint mode can potentially be mach 1 plus so when used against sea going targets once this thing locks you up and starts sprinting there is no hope of shooting it down or dodging it before it hits. So for a torpedo it could be amazingly useful once it has you locked on the downsides really don't effect it at all. Even its noise is not a disadvantage once it starts sprinting because it is so very very loud it helps mask what little noise your sub is making.

[kaid]

Oh I forgot to mention the other turning lemons into lemonaid for the super cavitation torpedos is once they are locked on and sprinting any kind of spoofing or jamming or countermeasures you try to use are pointless. It is to blind and deaf to see or hear anything so if it gets a solid lock on it WILL hit you your only chance is to try to spoof it before it starts its sprint.

[Zamion138]

Super cavitation is something the soviets have been working on. Basically it means making lots of bubbles. The concept is you have a torpedo at the very front of the torpedo you have something that spews out TONS of teeny bubbles. These bubbles act as a lubricant between the water and the torpedo and if done correctly it makes the torpedo effectivly almost frictionless. This allows for potentially hypersonic speed even underwater. The downside is as mentioned once you start sprinting everybody in a 100 miles is going to hear you coming and you are damn near blind as you are going to fast for most underwater sensors to work at all.

So not so effective as a mode of transportation sure you are the fastest thing in the water but you are pretty much going in a ruler straight line/very loud and damn near blind while doing it. Not so useful for that but now look at a torpedo. The torpedo lurks in sets up its firing solution and then once at a certain range triggers the super cavitation and goes sprint mode. This sprint mode can potentially be mach 1 plus so when used against sea going targets once this thing locks you up and starts sprinting there is no hope of shooting it down or dodging it before it hits. So for a torpedo it could be amazingly useful once it has you locked on the downsides really don't effect it at all. Even its noise is not a disadvantage once it starts sprinting because it is so very very loud it helps mask what little noise your sub is making.

Well as they say thats half the battle. the knowing that is.
That is very cool completly unaware of the idea or tech of that. I suppose on that front sense nuclear power is so easy and small in rifts and if you put an electrical current through water it creates oxygen, you could basicly ultra elctrocute the water around the PA and have it go, this should atomize water if its an mdc charge and force the bubbles and such to form making you move through the depths faster and as mentioned very loudly.

[glitterboy2098]

actuall the 2nd generation Skvall torpedoes the russians deployed in the 80's (replacing the first generation ones from the 70's) have internal guidance and can steer by vectoring thrust and adjusting the stabilizing vanes that extend out of the bubble.
the Iranians have a copy of the Skvall mk2 they call the Hoot, though they claim to have invented it independantly in the early 21st century.

the Germans developed their own super-cav torpedo called the Barracuda in the late 90's, it had inertial and wire guidance, and steered via a moveable nosecone. the german navy didn't deploy it due to lack of immediate need.

the US navy developed their own prototypes in the 80's, but decided that more silent advanced conventional torps were a better choice for the super-silent US navy subs. but the US navy has in recent years been working on a large scale troop conveyor vehicle with a supercav option for rapid exfiltration. the specs call for the ability to carry a full squad of troops.

most real supercav systems call for only 300 or so mph.. which is way better than the 60-70mph most stuff can hit, but hardly supersonic.


for a suit of powered armor, i don't think you could do it unless it either had a vehicle shell (lie that mermaid-suit made by tritonia) or was a whale or dolphin suit. i suppose you could have the suit lock up into a kind of ironman-ish pose and build big ass rockets into the legs, but that would get uncomfortable very quickly. and a suit would not have much operational range at speed, because you have to carry fuel with you to run the rockets, and suits are just too tiny to carry much fuel.

[kaid]

Yup it is interesting tech. The really curious thing is it is not the generation of the bubbles that is tricky it is finding the right size bubbles for the right depths. Go to deep and they become less effective as the water pressure crushes the bubbles down. And yes the mach speeds are theoretical but even without that you are still talking 2-3 times faster than any torp in the water and once it locks on the chance of anything dodging it is minimal.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

WIth light-speed weapons, interdiction is still fairly easily accomplished regardless of how fast the torpedo is going. It creates a giant target for targetting sensors and sonar, so putting a laser in the middle isn't too rough.

If it goes into Sprint-mode from more than a few hundred feet away, provided point defense isn't swamped, its not going to be much harder to shoot down than any other torpedo.

Which is not to say the tech is useless. You could use it to stack up a truly impressive salvo (if you only have two torpedo tubes, stagger your fire so that wave 1 goes into sprint mode closest, wave 2 goes a few seconds later, etc, so you can put 8/10/12 torpedos on target within a second or two of each other) with limited launch facilities, for one.