Forums of the Megaverse®

i hand a thought about techno-wizardry if you could do it on an atomic level .

Nope.

No. You need a theoretical minimum of a 1 carat gemstone to use in techno-wizardy. this makes the tiniest possible device too large for atomic scale.

Game balance would be knocked vastly askew if that were possible. And as Nekira mentioned, a minimum gem requirement is always necessary.
What I would like to see are Techno-Wizard Utility spells. Like a spell to spin wire from a block of metal.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:No. You need a theoretical minimum of a 1 carat gemstone to use in techno-wizardy. this makes the tiniest possible device too large for atomic scale.

The gemstones aren't really a requirement for Techno-Wizardry, and there are plenty of examples without them. Though the gemstone school has been in fashion since about PA 109 (aka when RUE offered some nice optional guidelines, 15 years after introducing TWs).

Though I would agree the atomic-scale it pretty much out. If you had a character that could directly perceive and manipulate at the atomic scale you might get some leeway from me, but there really isn't much of a device or machine you can build at that scale without going to a larger scale.

Uh, Crystal or gemstone requirement has been there sinse the begining. page 91 of the old main book.

on the other hand you could TW an atom smasher

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Uh, Crystal or gemstone requirement has been there sinse the begining. page 91 of the old main book.

Nope, only mention is that they a generally used component in TW conversions to a PPE power source. Indeed, it has been well established that if you want to store magical energy, you need natural crystals or gems. RUE introduced the idea of reducing PPE costs with more bling as well, though I still have mixed feelings about that, along with the whole X spell must have Y amount of Z gem thing, which I remember to parley with it as a guideline, not a spreadsheet, for making $^*# up.

oger333 wrote:i hand a thought about techno-wizardry if you could do it on an atomic level .

There are two answers, because there are two questions.

Topic title: yes.

OP: No.

(did OT today so will not get into any expantions of the answers.)

Armorlord wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Uh, Crystal or gemstone requirement has been there sinse the begining. page 91 of the old main book.

Nope, only mention is that they a generally used component in TW conversions to a PPE power source. Indeed, it has been well established that if you want to store magical energy, you need natural crystals or gems. RUE introduced the idea of reducing PPE costs with more bling as well, though I still have mixed feelings about that, along with the whole X spell must have Y amount of Z gem thing, which I remember to parley with it as a guideline, not a spreadsheet, for making $^*# up.

Can you provide an accact quote that whould help clear it up more than I say X.

Blue_Lion wrote:

Armorlord wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Uh, Crystal or gemstone requirement has been there sinse the begining. page 91 of the old main book.

Nope, only mention is that they a generally used component in TW conversions to a PPE power source. Indeed, it has been well established that if you want to store magical energy, you need natural crystals or gems. RUE introduced the idea of reducing PPE costs with more bling as well, though I still have mixed feelings about that, along with the whole X spell must have Y amount of Z gem thing, which I remember to parley with it as a guideline, not a spreadsheet, for making $^*# up.

Can you provide an accact quote that whould help clear it up more than I say X.

That is pretty much it, the only mention of it as a component of any sort in the beginning is page 91 of the RMB under "Change power source to magic P.P.E."

Change power source to magic P.P.E., RMB pg.91 wrote:The changes generally require electrical modifications, the elimination of the existing energy system and the use use crystals, especially quartz and crystal- type gem stones such as rubies, sapphires, emeralds, and diamonds.

Outside of this, gems are never mentioned as a general requirement for Techno-Wizardry, specific TW conversions included a gem, but strictly TW features that did not store any energy did not.

My personal take would be, no you cant enchant an indivdual atom with TW simply because the implications of TW are that the TW modifies a device to use magic. Now an alchemist....maybe, or a molecular engine or the like, again maybe. I would definatly require magical tools, that would allow you to see and manipulate objects at that level indiviually though. And frankly at that level of tech your getting into 'as you wish' areas anyway, but if a plot required it sure, but its not something a PC could realisiticly expect to do. Just my two cents worth

eliakon wrote:My personal take would be, no you cant enchant an indivdual atom with TW simply because the implications of TW are that the TW modifies a device to use magic. Now an alchemist....maybe, or a molecular engine or the like, again maybe. I would definatly require magical tools, that would allow you to see and manipulate objects at that level indiviually though. And frankly at that level of tech your getting into 'as you wish' areas anyway, but if a plot required it sure, but its not something a PC could realisiticly expect to do. Just my two cents worth

Got to agree. Techno wizardry is all about building or modifying devices, even armour enhancements require a device to be built in. An atom could not constitute a device, electrical nor mechanical.

Long Shadow wrote:An atom could not constitute a device, electrical nor mechanical.

How would you define a 'device' exactly?

Doesn't this depend on the level of technology? Phase World might potentially have it, if Rifts doesn't.

eliakon wrote:My personal take would be, no you cant enchant an indivdual atom with TW simply because the implications of TW are that the TW modifies a device to use magic. frankly at that level of tech your getting into 'as you wish' areas

Even if this level of miniaturization is used doesn't mean players get whatever they want. GMs could make it very expensive and difficult to miniaturize to that degree.

Check out the difference between normal cyber-magic stuff and smaller cybernetic versions in TtGD. The weight reduction amplifies the cost and PPE hugely.

Tor wrote:

Long Shadow wrote:An atom could not constitute a device, electrical nor mechanical.

How would you define a 'device' exactly?

Doesn't this depend on the level of technology? Phase World might potentially have it, if Rifts doesn't.

eliakon wrote:My personal take would be, no you cant enchant an indivdual atom with TW simply because the implications of TW are that the TW modifies a device to use magic. frankly at that level of tech your getting into 'as you wish' areas

Even if this level of miniaturization is used doesn't mean players get whatever they want. GMs could make it very expensive and difficult to miniaturize to that degree.

Check out the difference between normal cyber-magic stuff and smaller cybernetic versions in TtGD. The weight reduction amplifies the cost and PPE hugely.

I would say that a single atom would not be a device, in that it exists in itself, and does not mainpulate other things (other than forming a bond with another atom) I would PERSONALLY say that a device would have to be at a minium a molocue that can perform a task (molecular engines, and the like come to mind)

And I would say that the technology tocustom build devices from the atom up WOULD be almost game breaking. The technology required to allow this would be so radical that your talking a society where you can build anything you like on a whim. You would have to have tools that can manipulate atoms individually, and postition them and make them bond on comand. you would need massive knowledge of nuclear physics, chemistry, and all sorts of related sciences. And last but not least is the idea that if you can make a single atom be a magic item, then you run into the idea of a single grain of sand for instance containing billions of talismans, or virus that casts death word, or even more abusive sillyness. Again its all personal opinion and play style.

Wikitionary wrote:Noun

device (plural devices)

Any piece of equipment made for a particular purpose, especially a mechanical or electrical one.  

Is an atom a device?

Actually, there is an Ariel Atom racing car. Y'know, in case you want to enchant that. So technically you can indeed enchant Atoms.

wyrmraker wrote:Actually, there is an Ariel Atom racing car. Y'know, in case you want to enchant that. So technically you can indeed enchant Atoms.

Ohhh...an Arial Atom is a car I've wanted for a while now.

Jefffar wrote:

Any piece of equipment made for a particular purpose, especially a mechanical or electrical one.

Is an atom a device?

We might quibble over what 'equipment' means (though atoms are clearly 'pieces'). There are synthetic elements, so since we make them, and we make them for a purpose (and all purposes are particular) there do indeed exist some.