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CS originally had a number of glitterboys (think 12) which could have been nema and rebuild over time. But if you listen to the republicans only they can save the world, but they can't defeat the crazy toaster.
I don't put much faith in what they have to say, since its a rewrite of rifts earth history, and chaos earth, feels like its more a author driven to set up in Chicago.

Johnnycat93 wrote:To my memory the text does not say exactly were the CS found the schematics of the SAMAS and other gear.

CS got the SAMAS design plans from the Great Library before burning it, as Erin Tarn speculated in Wb8 Japan pg. 132-133.

The Republicans, according to the newly retcon'ed canon, are responsible for planting caches of information and/or gear, and creating almost all of the nations now in existence. They went from being a legend to being responsible for EBERYTING.

In case you cant tell, i hate the entire concept and the retcon was terrible.

So, the likely retcon story is that the CS was provided with the location of a place to find the plans for NEMA weapons and armor, and thus the CS was born

The Republicans, according to the newly retcon'ed canon, are responsible for planting caches of information and/or gear, and creating almost all of the nations now in existence. They went from being a legend to being responsible for EBERYTING.

In case you cant tell, i hate the entire concept and the retcon was terrible.

So, the likely retcon story is that the CS was provided with the location of a place to find the plans for NEMA weapons and armor, and thus the CS was born

notafraid2die wrote:I think I'll stick with my original assumptions. CE: Rise of Magic makes a reference in Sawyer's journals that she was considering moving her base of operations further south. I took this as a reference to the establishment of the future Chi-town. My assumptions were that NEMA eventually became the Coalition. A small group, who didn't agree with the Coalition's views moved to the old capitol calling themselves the Republicans, but were wiped out by the Splugorth (or ARCHIE/Shemarrians).

Revisions are great for updates, but they shouldn't stomp on established histories.

I agree, but in this case, it didn't. You assumed that NEMA eventually became the Coalition; you assumed that Sawyer's southern base of operations became Chi-Town.

Neither was ever stated or even heavily inferred.

My problem with it is that the ret-con is just poorly written and stupid, not that it really contradicts much (except for ARCHIE-3's location, which magically teleported hundreds of miles).

Just a clarification - all of the Republican retcons about them founding North American post-Rifts society have a built-in out - each paragraph begins with "the Republicans claim..." to have done X, Y and Z. Pages 120 & 121 of the Revised Sourcebook 1.

If, like I do, you don't want the Republicans to be that important, you can simply dismiss their claims as the self-aggrandizing lies/delusions of a group that's failed at everything they set out to do.

It is pretty clear that Chi town has access to pre rifts NEMA depositories, bunkers or manufacturing points. What is not clear is if it was held in a continus chain from when NEMA had them till now or more likely during the dark ages bunkers were found and the contents helped allow the finders to survive and carve out small states which grew bigger over time.

That NEMA and the republicans made all the current tech states in the US is unlikely but where the seeds of their technology and resources communities found during the dark ages a key to rebuilding things the answer most likely is yes.

And who knows it is even possible some active NEMA agents/republicans that still lived told people how to find secret caches/bunkers to help them survive.

IIRC it isn't so much the Republicans created the tech states but "helped them along" IE leaked the info of where to find a small factory and 288 GB suits to Free Quebec who then figured out how to do it themselves or helped the CS behind the scenes by slipping information tot eh Great Chi-Town Library. They are very unhappy with how the CS has turned out.

I go with the assumption that majority of the NEMA forces under Sawyer eventually founded Chi-Town after they found they couldn't hold Chicago itself. Moving the factories would be hard long work, but easy enough. The fact that Chi-Town become something else far removed from the original goal is just one of those quirks of history. Sawyer was far from the ONLY NEMA force active, just the most known. The Republicans would just be another force who didn't settle on "just" surviving. And yeah, I completely take their "we started everything" as convenient grandstanding to make themselves seem more important to a new generation of Republicans who ask "what have we done, exactly?"

I think it's more amusing to think that they went further south and discovered the Lone Star Complex...

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:CS originally had a number of glitterboys (think 12) which could have been nema and rebuild over time. But if you listen to the republicans only they can save the world, but they can't defeat the crazy toaster.
I don't put much faith in what they have to say, since its a rewrite of rifts earth history, and chaos earth, feels like its more a author driven to set up in Chicago.

LOL you realy think the CS could defeat the "Toaster" they do not even know he exists.

Blue_Lion wrote:

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:CS originally had a number of glitterboys (think 12) which could have been nema and rebuild over time. But if you listen to the republicans only they can save the world, but they can't defeat the crazy toaster.
I don't put much faith in what they have to say, since its a rewrite of rifts earth history, and chaos earth, feels like its more a author driven to set up in Chicago.

LOL you realy think the CS could defeat the "Toaster" they do not even know he exists.

He said the republicans can't beat the toaster, and they know all about him.

Blue_Lion wrote:

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:CS originally had a number of glitterboys (think 12) which could have been nema and rebuild over time. But if you listen to the republicans only they can save the world, but they can't defeat the crazy toaster.
I don't put much faith in what they have to say, since its a rewrite of rifts earth history, and chaos earth, feels like its more a author driven to set up in Chicago.

LOL you realy think the CS could defeat the "Toaster" they do not even know he exists.

And where did you get that may I ask......

IIRC in the original Rifts Main book, it was stated that the Chi-town CS originally had some remnant GB's that eventually were all destroyed. The SAMAS plans (as mentioned earlier by others) were presumed to have been stored in the Chi-town library and then later "claimed" to be "original" constructs designed by the CS under Karl Prosek. As for Lonestar/Tex Am complex, the CS discovered that facility years ago when they sent a geological survey team into Texas in search of oil. That facilty gave the Chi-town CS greater manufacturing capabilities as well as the genetic and medical technologies that created the Dog Boys and improved the life span of the CS higher-ups as mentioned in War Campaign. Free Quebec (in their own book) is stated as discovering a Chromium Guardsman FACTORY somewhere in northern New England (New Hampshire, Vermont, New York or Maine, I can't recall). Of course this is all before the rewrite of the Republicans who now "claim" to have behind just about every group in North America.
As far as the CS defeating ARCHIE, there has been no mention at all, anywhere, that the CS is in possesion of ANY information regarding Archie, Hagan, thw HQ Echo Compound (a supposedly "Top Secret" facility that just barely went on-line just before the coming of the Rifts). That leaves it wide open for any Gm to do as they wish (for once).

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:CS originally had a number of glitterboys (think 12) which could have been nema and rebuild over time. But if you listen to the republicans only they can save the world, but they can't defeat the crazy toaster.
I don't put much faith in what they have to say, since its a rewrite of rifts earth history, and chaos earth, feels like its more a author driven to set up in Chicago.

LOL you realy think the CS could defeat the "Toaster" they do not even know he exists.

He said the republicans can't beat the toaster, and they know all about him.

I do not think anything on rifts could beat the toaster.

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:CS originally had a number of glitterboys (think 12) which could have been nema and rebuild over time. But if you listen to the republicans only they can save the world, but they can't defeat the crazy toaster.
I don't put much faith in what they have to say, since its a rewrite of rifts earth history, and chaos earth, feels like its more a author driven to set up in Chicago.

LOL you realy think the CS could defeat the "Toaster" they do not even know he exists.

And where did you get that may I ask......

Sourcebook 1 Revised has lots of info on teh Republicans and their "war" with Archie. They know all about Archie.

jaymz wrote:

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:CS originally had a number of glitterboys (think 12) which could have been nema and rebuild over time. But if you listen to the republicans only they can save the world, but they can't defeat the crazy toaster.
I don't put much faith in what they have to say, since its a rewrite of rifts earth history, and chaos earth, feels like its more a author driven to set up in Chicago.

LOL you realy think the CS could defeat the "Toaster" they do not even know he exists.

And where did you get that may I ask......

Sourcebook 1 Revised has lots of info on teh Republicans and their "war" with Archie. They know all about Archie.

Spoiler:

they have even hacked him partly to use one of his factories to make their new mechanized units

That is not what I was talking about

Blue_Lion wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:CS originally had a number of glitterboys (think 12) which could have been nema and rebuild over time. But if you listen to the republicans only they can save the world, but they can't defeat the crazy toaster.
I don't put much faith in what they have to say, since its a rewrite of rifts earth history, and chaos earth, feels like its more a author driven to set up in Chicago.

LOL you realy think the CS could defeat the "Toaster" they do not even know he exists.

He said the republicans can't beat the toaster, and they know all about him.

I do not think anything on rifts could beat the toaster.

You be surprised on what could kick the toaster hindquarters.

@MVP - Sorry bout that....as for them not knowing, I believe teh CS is suspicious of Titan Robotics/Cyberworks and while they may know of an AI project called "Archie" from the various databases they have unearthed over the decades (though likely form the one at Lonestar as it was relatively intact) there is no information that they in fact know Archie 3 still exists, his location or what he is up to in any way shape or form.

Blue_Lion wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:CS originally had a number of glitterboys (think 12) which could have been nema and rebuild over time. But if you listen to the republicans only they can save the world, but they can't defeat the crazy toaster.
I don't put much faith in what they have to say, since its a rewrite of rifts earth history, and chaos earth, feels like its more a author driven to set up in Chicago.

LOL you realy think the CS could defeat the "Toaster" they do not even know he exists.

He said the republicans can't beat the toaster, and they know all about him.

I do not think anything on rifts could beat the toaster.

Your kidding right? aside from Spynncryth already stated to be able to do so, I'd go so far as to say any major power, especially the federation of magic, could trivially take him out if they decided to mount a full military campaign to that effect. secrecy is his best and only sheild. heck, taking the toaster down was a mid-level adventure. he's far, far from unbeatable, nor is he anywhere close to the brightest mind on Rifts.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:CS originally had a number of glitterboys (think 12) which could have been nema and rebuild over time. But if you listen to the republicans only they can save the world, but they can't defeat the crazy toaster.
I don't put much faith in what they have to say, since its a rewrite of rifts earth history, and chaos earth, feels like its more a author driven to set up in Chicago.

LOL you realy think the CS could defeat the "Toaster" they do not even know he exists.

He said the republicans can't beat the toaster, and they know all about him.

I do not think anything on rifts could beat the toaster.

Your kidding right? aside from Spynncryth already stated to be able to do so, I'd go so far as to say any major power, especially the federation of magic, could trivially take him out if they decided to mount a full military campaign to that effect. secrecy is his best and only sheild. heck, taking the toaster down was a mid-level adventure. he's far, far from unbeatable, nor is he anywhere close to the brightest mind on Rifts.

In that regard, by and large, Archie is really his own worst enemy.

Azazel wrote:

keir451 wrote:Free Quebec (in their own book) is stated as discovering a Chromium Guardsman FACTORY somewhere in northern New England (New Hampshire, Vermont, New York or Maine, I can't recall).

Did they reprint Free Quebec and added that they found a factory?
I own a 1st Printing and it says that during the Dark Ages some explorers unearthed a cache of Glitter Boys in the ruins of a USA military installation. It wasn't until the end of the Dark Ages that some mechanical genius at Quebec figured out how to manufacture them.

It was a retcon/reveal that Free Quebec's claims that they found a few hundred Glitter Boys were propaganda to hide the truth that they had found an intact functional factory with complete production specs and information so people wouldn't do anything they could to get ahold of it. Much like the CS claims to everyone that they developed the SAMAS on their own rather than it being Pre-Rifts technology that they stole.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:The Republicans, according to the newly retcon'ed canon, are responsible for planting caches of information and/or gear, and creating almost all of the nations now in existence. They went from being a legend to being responsible for EBERYTING.

In case you cant tell, i hate the entire concept and the retcon was terrible.

So, the likely retcon story is that the CS was provided with the location of a place to find the plans for NEMA weapons and armor, and thus the CS was born

Actually, it seems more like a deconstruction of that idea. Everything the Republicans tried to be behind got away from them and failed horribly as far as they're concerned.

keir451 wrote:IIRC in the original Rifts Main book, it was stated that the Chi-town CS originally had some remnant GB's that eventually were all destroyed.

I don't remember ever reading that and can't find it.

/Sub

notafraid2die wrote:But the question still stands... where the heck did Chi-town (the actual mega compound) come from? Who built it and when? Was it built by the Coalition (before they were the Coalition) or was it perhaps built by NEMA?

It was up prior to the 12 PA attack.

notafraid2die wrote:Glitterboys were originally a Canadian creation, so it stands that Free Quebec would find the means to manufacture them.

Can you give me a reference for this?

Because everything I've tracked down says they're out of the US military, through KLS.

Yeah i do not recall The GB's being a Canadian creation at all. Canada would have used them as part of NEMA along with Samas and the other mechanical units just as Mexico would have as well.

If we go as a Megaversal whole (Which Rifts is best suited to) the KLS Corp designed the Glitterboy when the inventor of ARCHIE One jumped ship from Cyberworks to them.

Now, in Villian's Unlimited, he used his tech-savvy and new robots to take over a small South American nation, reinventing himself as "Usurper", the SAME country that had the minor dustup that led to the coming of the Rifts.

KLS designed the Glitterboys in the early years of the 21st Century, but it took several decades before they were fully up to the battlefield. Estimates, going through ALL the books, with a research assistant, showed that Glitterboys were fielded first by the US Army, before even NEMA existed, roughly 2040 AD, at least, Glitterboys as far as we know them.

The SAMAS was later, but a LOT of it depended on the lightweight but durable Chromium Armor (lightweight for the protection it offered), and the advances in rail gun technology, to produce the Silver Eagle.

Now, as for what happened to NEMA, more than likely it went like this.

You DO NOT hold an untenable position. As soon as possible, earlier if forced, they would have retreated away from Chicago, taking as many refugees as possible. It's VERY likely that NEMA went out the window during the first week or two of moving. That means that the military chain of command would have enacted martial law, mainly to ration food, fuel, clothing, ammunition, and the like.

So, yeah, NEMA died immediately into the Coming of the Rifts, but the PEOPLE didn't.

The Glitterboys, Mastiffs, Bulldogs, and Silver Eagles were largely "Use until destroyed", eventually coming just body armor and rifles, devolving into infantry war with high tech weapons.

As for "where did the structure for the CS City" come from? Arcology. Back when Rifts was first written, Arcologies were the wave of the future. (See Shadowrun), and most cities were seriously looking into doing the arcology thing for the city center. It makes a lot of sense. More than likely what they took over was a corporation's crowning achievement, a fully self-contained arcology made entirely from the ground up, even architected in mind of, MD materials.

That's just my .02 though.


And, as far as the Republicans go? They're not even worth mentioning.

T-Willard wrote:You DO NOT hold an untenable position. As soon as possible, earlier if forced, they would have retreated away from Chicago, taking as many refugees as possible. It's VERY likely that NEMA went out the window during the first week or two of moving. That means that the military chain of command would have enacted martial law, mainly to ration food, fuel, clothing, ammunition, and the like.

So, yeah, NEMA died immediately into the Coming of the Rifts, but the PEOPLE didn't.

This is not likely to be true, as they are shown giving monthly salaries in Chaos Earth. If they're giving monthly salaries, it means they're not dissolved in a week or two.

/Sub

Subjugator wrote:

T-Willard wrote:You DO NOT hold an untenable position. As soon as possible, earlier if forced, they would have retreated away from Chicago, taking as many refugees as possible. It's VERY likely that NEMA went out the window during the first week or two of moving. That means that the military chain of command would have enacted martial law, mainly to ration food, fuel, clothing, ammunition, and the like.

So, yeah, NEMA died immediately into the Coming of the Rifts, but the PEOPLE didn't.

This is not likely to be true, as they are shown giving monthly salaries in Chaos Earth. If they're giving monthly salaries, it means they're not dissolved in a week or two.

/Sub

If they're doing "payday" for the troops then the Rifts weren't that big of a deal. That means Defense Finance is still online. That means that all the finance companies survived. That means that the chain of command, support infrastructure, and everything else is intact.

It wasn't a disaster. It was just a foggy day with a few guys in rubber masks running around.

The SECOND the supervolcano blew up, the Rifts blew open, NEMA, the US government, and everything else was over.

I have no clue why that monthly salary thing is even there. Nobody is getting paid. Hell, in a modern conflict zone your pay gets screwed up all the time, so the Coming of the Rifts couldn't have been bad at all.

i generally assumed the monthly salary thing was for 'before the cataclysm" games. while Chaos Earth is set up to focus on the cataclysm and the weeks immediately after 12/28/2098, there is nothing to prevent you from using the NEMA info to run games set months or years earlier, during the golden age.

That's about the only thing I could think of for it to be in the book. I did run a "Day of Defeat" game, where the players started a few months before the Coming of the Rifts, then tried to survive.

As far as having connection with Quebec, that is really not that surprising. It says its a "Second Cold War", and the old Cold War backup systems for "Event Recovery" and "Continuity of Government" allowed for communication after total extinction event. Sat commo would be down, most of the repeater towers are going to be down, but you'd be surprised at the backup communications systems taht are just in place between Continuity of Government sites and places like NORAD. These systems were designed for everything imaginable.

More than likely what they have is a relay system between surviving outposts, maybe a few of the old emergency systems still work, which is why they only have contact with Quebec and nobody else. The high ash density would interfere with microwave and laser systems. Land line systems would be intermittent, but the emergency network would still have some contact with some places.

During our "Day of Defeat" game, we ran the numbers to move thousands of refugees, all shocked, all with what they could carry, with vehicles having given out, through six hundred miles of enemy held territory with no front lines and an enemy that could appear in the middle of the refugees at any time.

Moving that many people 80 miles would be a Herculean chore, but to do it there would have to be a cohesive command structure, and you'd break the refugees down into groups, with wounded soldiers acting as command of each "refugee section". Vehicles would have been used for the infirm, old, children, and wounded, as well as supplies. Badly damaged armors would be used to drag damaged vehicles that the engine had seized up on. You have several Quick Reaction Forces, scouts, perimeter guards, the whole nine yards for an "amorphous defense" to protect the shell-shocked refugees.

Displacing those who want to go along, separating them from those who think their new abilities will let them protect themselves better than NEMA, is actually a good bet.

You could do it. You'd lose 10-20% of the refugees, but it would be within acceptable limits. 80 miles pulls them from the danger zone of Chicago, scouts could pinpoint a good place to go before leaving. You ALWAYS have a "go to hell" plan. The NEMA commanders would be criminally negligent if they didn't have those plans.

But unless you want to get into post-apocalyptic government formation theory and the evolution of fascism, maybe I oughta shut up, since I'm getting way off course here.

T-Willard wrote:If they're doing "payday" for the troops then the Rifts weren't that big of a deal. That means Defense Finance is still online. That means that all the finance companies survived. That means that the chain of command, support infrastructure, and everything else is intact.

Pay is only at 10% normal, but it's still there.

It wasn't a disaster. It was just a foggy day with a few guys in rubber masks running around.

It was a disaster. It's just not had the effects that YOU are assuming.

The SECOND the supervolcano blew up, the Rifts blew open, NEMA, the US government, and everything else was over.

Incorrect.

I have no clue why that monthly salary thing is even there. Nobody is getting paid. Hell, in a modern conflict zone your pay gets screwed up all the time, so the Coming of the Rifts couldn't have been bad at all.

Maybe the computers are programmed better. *shrug* They have ARCHIE level computers, yaknow.

/Sub

glitterboy2098 wrote:i generally assumed the monthly salary thing was for 'before the cataclysm" games. while Chaos Earth is set up to focus on the cataclysm and the weeks immediately after 12/28/2098, there is nothing to prevent you from using the NEMA info to run games set months or years earlier, during the golden age.

Nope. It specifically says it's being paid out at 10% of the normal rate because of the disaster.

/Sub

Subjugator wrote:

T-Willard wrote:You DO NOT hold an untenable position. As soon as possible, earlier if forced, they would have retreated away from Chicago, taking as many refugees as possible. It's VERY likely that NEMA went out the window during the first week or two of moving. That means that the military chain of command would have enacted martial law, mainly to ration food, fuel, clothing, ammunition, and the like.

So, yeah, NEMA died immediately into the Coming of the Rifts, but the PEOPLE didn't.

This is not likely to be true, as they are shown giving monthly salaries in Chaos Earth. If they're giving monthly salaries, it means they're not dissolved in a week or two.

/Sub

Well it's great to see the banks were still open during that time

Subjugator wrote:

T-Willard wrote:If they're doing "payday" for the troops then the Rifts weren't that big of a deal. That means Defense Finance is still online. That means that all the finance companies survived. That means that the chain of command, support infrastructure, and everything else is intact.

Pay is only at 10% normal, but it's still there.

It wasn't a disaster. It was just a foggy day with a few guys in rubber masks running around.

It was a disaster. It's just not had the effects that YOU are assuming.

The SECOND the supervolcano blew up, the Rifts blew open, NEMA, the US government, and everything else was over.

Incorrect.

The salaries are mainly for "morale" purpose, for all the silly good that does. Read "One Second After" or "Lights Out" or watch the show "Jericho" for some good idea's on what people are going to be concentrating on. It's not like the NEMA soldier is going to check out the 2098 version of a DVD at Wal-Mart or checking their stock options anytime soon.

Also, nearly the entire federal government was wiped out on the first day, so yeah it's over. We also know it doesn't get reformed anytime soon.

notafraid2die wrote:

Azazel wrote:I did a little "research" and found several interesting points that i'll summarize:

The resident of Chi-Town have a long history of dealing with the supernatural going back to the days of Old Chicago and the Great Cataclysm. (Adventure Sourcebook: The Vanguard)

Of all the tiny kingdoms that survived the 200 years Dark Ages it is Chi-Town and The Federation of Magic that came out on top. (Adventure Sourcebook: The Vanguard)

The city state of Chi-Town had been a true center of humanity for about 70 years before the formation of the CS. (Adventure Guide)
This would place the date at around -37 P.A. and i believe this marks the construction of the actual fortress city.

The facts about the first 150 years after the Great Cataclysm were lost to the people of Chi-Town. (Adventure Sourcebook: The Vanguard)
This would also place the date when they started to keep historical records to around -37 P.A.

Any Thoughts?

Thanks, this is great info, I'll have to look into this a little more.

Just to add a bit -

Chi-Town, prior to it becoming the heart of the Coalition, had what was called the "Chi-Town Defensive League." One of the officers within their ranks was one Joseph Prosek. (SoT, book 1, page 97)

Also well before it became the Coalition, the city of Chi-Town did indeed use Glitter Boys - finding 100 on them in a bunker. (WB 22 - page 71)

Pretty much what I was getting at.

As soon as it all went up, the multinational force known as NEMA was flat out gone.

What was left was individual units operating under the dreaded "Revert to Local Command" orders.

Having had experience with the military pay system, the idea that Defense Finance would be able to hand out pay in the face of a global catastrophe makes me laugh. Not to punch the buttons of any finance clerks here, but the system infrastructure itself would be gone. Hell, I went without pay for three months in CONUS due to a computer glitch during peacetime so forgive me if I don't exactly see people's direct deposit hitting after the Cataclysm.

What is going on in the General's diaries is she's facing the decisions that ever commander (or people in the know) dread. The "Revert to Local Command" order, which means that in the absence of any cohesive chain of command the highest ranking on the ground must make the decisions that normally higher officers or even the Joint Chiefs would be making.

She had contact with Quebec, which is one of the vagrancies of communications that happen now and then. (During a bonafide Real World Situation I was able to get radio contact with a unit at Fort Hood, 8,000 MILES away, but not with main post, 5 miles away one time) She can't contact NORAD, any of the Emergency Command Centers, or any higher up. Everything is her decision, all on her head. She's technically exceeded her authority by moving her command area, but since she's under revertion orders, she can do that.

And the pay for the month? I've more or less viewed that as the supplies they have access to, that come down through Supply, or that grateful civilians give them.

A credstick is just a broken glowstick by that time in an apocalypse. A credit card is good for leveling a tripod or shimming a radio, but that's about it.

The good General is facing off an Extinction Level Event, NEMA, the Federal Government, the various militaries, are all, for all intent and purposes, GONE.

What happened to NEMA? They survived. Their descendants became something else, eventually. If they and/or the refugees hadn't have survived, there wouldn't be anyone there when ARCHIE woke up, and the Splugorth would have arrived to an empty world knocked back to small mammals, lizards, and some complex sea life.

The last time the atmosphere had that much dust in it, most of the species in the world died off.

Azazel wrote:

Subjugator wrote:

T-Willard wrote:It wasn't a disaster. It was just a foggy day with a few guys in rubber masks running around.

It was a disaster. It's just not had the effects that YOU are assuming.

T-Willard wrote:The SECOND the supervolcano blew up, the Rifts blew open, NEMA, the US government, and everything else was over.

Incorrect.

/Sub

I believe T-Willard is correct.

By December 31, 2098 it is clear that the whole country's infrastructure is shattered and the government is gone. Communications are also gone and all they are receiving are intermittent reports from Canada. An estimated two-thirds of the cities are either destroyed or burning. Cities that were left reasonably intact are in full blown riots. Nuclear missiles were launched against cities and other sites which will cause radioactive fallout.

Salaries continued after the Caldera went up. You are canonically incorrect. NEMA remained active.

Azazel wrote:

Subjugator wrote:

T-Willard wrote:It wasn't a disaster. It was just a foggy day with a few guys in rubber masks running around.

It was a disaster. It's just not had the effects that YOU are assuming.

T-Willard wrote:The SECOND the supervolcano blew up, the Rifts blew open, NEMA, the US government, and everything else was over.

Incorrect.

/Sub

I believe T-Willard is correct.

By December 31, 2098 it is clear that the whole country's infrastructure is shattered and the government is gone. Communications are also gone and all they are receiving are intermittent reports from Canada. An estimated two-thirds of the cities are either destroyed or burning. Cities that were left reasonably intact are in full blown riots. Nuclear missiles were launched against cities and other sites which will cause radioactive fallout.

Salaries continued after the Caldera went up. You are canonically incorrect. NEMA remained active.

Subjugator wrote:Salaries continued after the Caldera went up. You are canonically incorrect. NEMA remained active.

So you are stating that because each OCC has a monthly salary listing, which would pretty much be their starting money, the ENTIRE banking and finance system of North America was still online?

You are basing your interpretation of canon on a single line in the OCC crunch, disregarding all of the other information in the Chaos Earth books, despite the impossibility of such a thing.

T-Willard wrote:
Having had experience with the military pay system, the idea that Defense Finance would be able to hand out pay in the face of a global catastrophe makes me laugh. Not to punch the buttons of any finance clerks here, but the system infrastructure itself would be gone. Hell, I went without pay for three months in CONUS due to a computer glitch during peacetime so forgive me if I don't exactly see people's direct deposit hitting after the Cataclysm.

And the pay for the month? I've more or less viewed that as the supplies they have access to, that come down through Supply, or that grateful civilians give them.

A credstick is just a broken glowstick by that time in an apocalypse. A credit card is good for leveling a tripod or shimming a radio, but that's about it.

I believe that N.E.M.A. had that monthly pay as an additional incentive for "When this crisis is over, you will get paid as soon as the government is restored, we estimate this to take 1-2 years so when that day come, N.E.M.A. will pay you what we owe you with "hazardous-combat-payment" as a serious bonus. So until then, we will provide for you as long as you are in the military, but later, you will be compensated richly so you can get the life you want.

Dunia wrote:

T-Willard wrote:
Having had experience with the military pay system, the idea that Defense Finance would be able to hand out pay in the face of a global catastrophe makes me laugh. Not to punch the buttons of any finance clerks here, but the system infrastructure itself would be gone. Hell, I went without pay for three months in CONUS due to a computer glitch during peacetime so forgive me if I don't exactly see people's direct deposit hitting after the Cataclysm.

And the pay for the month? I've more or less viewed that as the supplies they have access to, that come down through Supply, or that grateful civilians give them.

A credstick is just a broken glowstick by that time in an apocalypse. A credit card is good for leveling a tripod or shimming a radio, but that's about it.

I believe that N.E.M.A. had that monthly pay as an additional incentive for "When this crisis is over, you will get paid as soon as the government is restored, we estimate this to take 1-2 years so when that day come, N.E.M.A. will pay you what we owe you with "hazardous-combat-payment" as a serious bonus. So until then, we will provide for you as long as you are in the military, but later, you will be compensated richly so you can get the life you want.

That too. There would be a lot of "man, when this is over, I'll have like 6 months of back-pay coming! I'll stay drunk for like a week!" going on in the ranks. Even during the Revolutionary War in the US they kept track of the pay they were owed so that if they won they'd be able to get their back-pay.

T-Willard wrote:What happened to NEMA? They survived. Their descendants became something else, eventually. If they and/or the refugees hadn't have survived, there wouldn't be anyone there when ARCHIE woke up, and the Splugorth would have arrived to an empty world knocked back to small mammals, lizards, and some complex sea life.

After the Yellowstone blew up, and the major dust settled believe that after the remaining N.E.M.A. personnel did what they could to make it the best for the survivors. Some settled down in fortified/armed refugee camps, others went out in their power armors and military vehicles to search for survivors to bring those back to the fortified/armed camps.

The first of these two groups was responsible for the founding of the first post-catastrophe cities and kingdoms. In the beginning they must have had a N.E.M.A. controlled government, but as this is placed in the USA, I believe that sooner or later a civilian government was founded at each of these camps and they used the remaining N.E.M.A. soldiers as a standing militia.
Somewhere along the line, the original N.E.M.A. people died out, and locals that had been trained continued using the same machines until they broke down. Then the legends were formed, history got twisted and there is what came to be cities like Chi Town, Merc Town (or what the place was called before it was called MT), Lazlo, Perez, Old Bones e.t.c.

However those that went out in their giant robots, power armors, military vehicles, they became the Neemans and the first of the legendary Glitterboy pilots that started the heroic tales of defenders of the innocent/helpless. Their legends remained, people forgot N.E.M.A. and the people of the wilds dream and pray for a Neeman in his shiny glitterboy when to come when the village is ravaged my sorcerers and monsters.

Though, sometime a few of N.E.M.A. people decided that the world was doomed and tried to find such place as Site-R, Cheyenne Mountain Complex and other sites used by US military and they became the Republicans. Wanting to restore the USA, they used A.R.C.H.I.E-3 to freeze down the majority of them as well as their materials, took what they could carry and pack in a few vehicles and left to save the world. They later found the subways and underground parts of Washington DC, set up a base and met a few aliens that they could work with (Squilbs or what they are called). Here they sat until somewhere PA 70-80 when Atlantis was tired of their skirmishes against the Slave business and took matter into their tentacles and obliterated DC.
The survivors went to A.R.C.H.I.E-3, and he refused them help and with the Coalition States turning into a tyranny, the republicans decided to spread out, waiting for a moment when they can once again, form an army to take out A.R.C.H.I.E-3, wake up the sleepers, build an army and take out CS and then save USA.

Though, I see most Republicans working like terrorists cells, with only a handful knowing everything and most cells do not know more than 1 or 2 other cells. Most republicans are used as spies that infiltrate various enterprises (wandering shows, merchants etc), mercenary units and city governments and wait for orders that never show up. It is just recently that they have founded the RSF (Republican Strike Force) and they are not large enough to field an army. So now they are slowly building it up and in a generation or two, they might have enough...but for now, they slip around in the shadows adding a person here, and as I see them, they have installed a "family before everything" type of lifestyle where the families serve and intermarry in order to keep the secrets and sometimes they let adventurers work for them and when they are seen as trusted, these adventurers gets recruited and will hopefully be married into the organization.

The republicans in my eyes dream of a glorious past, and a glorious return, but for now, they act in the shadows and wait and rebuild. They plan for a long time ahead and is no threat to anyone for the next 10-40 years.

But this is just me and this is just an excerpt of what I wrote when i did my campaigns in Rifts. At one time i planned to submit it, but I felt that if I did, I would never live to see it published so I still have it somewhere at home.

with only a handful knowing everything and most cells do not know more than 1 or 2 other cells.

Sounds very much like how the Vanguard is

Having your players look for Site-R (Raven Rock), Blue Rabbit Burrow, Blackbriar Ridge, Mount Weather, and other sites like that is a whole new game. That could start with just hearing rumors that there was a Neeman Fortress in the mountains, and lead the characters to long forgotten sites.

Of course, you'd want to remember the old adage: "Old dark places attract old dark things."

Also, in the SB1 (not revised), it is said that after Karl Prosek dies and Joseph's sons take over, the power of the Coalition begins to falter, if I am correct. I do not have that book any longer. But I recall that something like this was written down. So that might be when the Republicans act, they are weakening the Coalition from inside and in 50-60 years the power of Chi Town and the Coalition States will be changed into "The New America" of which the Republican dreams of.

And regarding that the Republican is behind every major civilization, it is not true, only FQ and Chi-Town, all others seems to have manged it for themselves. Maybe the Republicans planted the locations f pre-rifts factories. Afer all they if any would know of such places, and as Asimov says in his Foundation Trilogy, it is better to have 2 foundations just in case one fails. Or as S.R Hadden says in the movie "Contact" Why build one machine when you can build two for twice the price?"
So maybe the Republican seeded ideas into FQ and CS:CT just in case one failed, but they did not count that much of the human fears and hatred that would follow against D-Bees, Mages and Mutants.
Or everything is just propaganda in order to show that they have done good stuff...or at leas tried to.

T-Willard wrote:Having your players look for Site-R (Raven Rock), Blue Rabbit Burrow, Blackbriar Ridge, Mount Weather, and other sites like that is a whole new game. That could start with just hearing rumors that there was a Neeman Fortress in the mountains, and lead the characters to long forgotten sites.

Of course, you'd want to remember the old adage: "Old dark places attract old dark things."

I did that in my big campaign. It was really fun.

Though I placed the Republican HQ in Mount weather.

jaymz wrote:

with only a handful knowing everything and most cells do not know more than 1 or 2 other cells.

Sounds very much like how the Vanguard is :D

Yep, but it is also the most logical way to hide such an organization. Otherwise CS or other governments would know something about them.

Azazel wrote:

Subjugator wrote:

Azazel wrote:

Subjugator wrote:

T-Willard wrote:It wasn't a disaster. It was just a foggy day with a few guys in rubber masks running around.

It was a disaster. It's just not had the effects that YOU are assuming.

T-Willard wrote:The SECOND the supervolcano blew up, the Rifts blew open, NEMA, the US government, and everything else was over.

Incorrect.

/Sub

I believe T-Willard is correct.

By December 31, 2098 it is clear that the whole country's infrastructure is shattered and the government is gone. Communications are also gone and all they are receiving are intermittent reports from Canada. An estimated two-thirds of the cities are either destroyed or burning. Cities that were left reasonably intact are in full blown riots. Nuclear missiles were launched against cities and other sites which will cause radioactive fallout.

Salaries continued after the Caldera went up. You are canonically incorrect. NEMA remained active.

How can i be canonically incorrect when all i wrote can be found right in the book?

I never mentioned anything about salaries either, all i did was describe the general situation as of December 31, 2098.

I believe you are the one that insist on treating this like just a major disaster when it was in fact the end of modern civilization. Hurricane Katrina was a major disaster, this was the bloody apocalypse. There is a reason why the next 200 years would be called the second Dark Ages of humanity.

You said you believed T-Willard was correct. T-Willard said NEMA was gone when the Caldera went up. When the Caldera went up, NEMA was not gone. They are active. That's from the book.

Chicago, while damaged, was active. That's from the book.

Do I need to continue line by line?

/Sub