Forums of the Megaverse®

Suppose a Glitterboy Legion from Free Quebec went for a walkabout and found itself entering Xiticix territory. How may bugs could they take down before being overwhelmed by sheer numbers? 1,000? 10,000? 100,000?

While the Xiticix can generate a staggering number of attackers, they will have to send them all at once. Otherwise, the Glitterboy's extreme firepower and range will just knock down wave after wave until they run out of ammunition.

For sake of discussion, let's go with a typical Legion: 2,560 Glitterboys plus 1,000 support troops. And we'll assume that the Legion stays together as a single large unit, not divided into smaller ones.

[Just a topic for fun. Let's not get too wrapped around the axle on specifics here.]

The biggest problem with old fashioned glitterboys would be running out of ammo. Each shot from a boom gun is pretty much killing a xiticix in one maybe two hits but they only have 100 rounds. The FQ army if it massed for it would probably do pretty well as they have some varients with energy based weapons and also have reloading teams to quickly reload the GB in the field.

While the ammo holds out a glitterboy legion is going to kill the heck out of a whole mess of xiticix but I think the sheer number of xits would eventually swamp the glitterboys.

The GB's have a 1,000 rounds each. The payload was updated in Free Quebec and thereafter.

I could see the Free Quebec, if it did go on an extermination of the bugs, might have to just form a line and advance with it across Canada. Like humans did in World War Z to purge North America (just I dont know why they ended their line at the borders, zombies dont obey borders.

Mack wrote:The GB's have a 1,000 rounds each. The payload was updated in Free Quebec and thereafter.

Ah I had not actually used a GB in a while and all the older write ups were 100 rounds. With 1k rounds it would be a pretty big kill fest. I think eventually they may get overrun but it really depends how close they are to the hivelands. Due to the range of the boomguns and the potency of them you are probably looking at 15-20k Xiticix dead before the xiticix even get into range to return fire. It would really be a matter of can they get a huge enough swarm in the air at the same time really clumped together to saturate the GB with targets. If they are to spread out the GB are just going to eat them in waves each shot pretty much killing one bug baring a miss or a REALLY poor damage roll.

If they are within 10-20 miles of a hive I think eventually even with 1000k rounds and reloads eventually the GB would get swamped. Even if you are going 100 xits per glitterboy killing almost a quarter of a million bugs that still is a drop in the bucket of what the hivelands can generate.

It also depends if the GB are actively pushing towards the hive or breaking off once they realize they are in threat range of the hivelands. If they are trying to break away and back off The xits would harrase them but probably see them as a big enough threat to shadow them and force them out of their area but likely not chase them. If the GB were just going darn the torpedos towards a hive and not attempting to back off eventually they would get cut off and destroyed but it would be an epic level of carnage before that happened.

Johnnycat93 wrote:Would the glitterboys be able to start at their maximum range? If so, I'd give one between 700-1000 kills before going down. However, if ammo is not a consideration I'd give them 2-3 times as many kills or possibly an indefinite lifespan.

If starting at max range I have to think the kill ratio would be much higher than that. The xiticix max range is 4000 feet with their rifles. The glitterboys have almost tripple the range of I believe 11k feet. Also xiticix do not fly terribly quickly so the glitterboys are probably getting 3 maybe 4 free attacks or even higher as I don't have the exact flight speed to determine how fast they could close that distance before the xiticix could even start responding. The xits do not have a ton of MDC on their main bodies although some varients are tougher than others so on average you are looking at 1-2 hits per kill for the glitterboy.

The real danger for the glitterboys are when the xiticix push into hand to hand combat. That said one ironic advantage of the glitterboys vs melee combatants is the boomguns boom. The combat penalties would allow the GB to last longer than one might expect but eventually if the bugs can push in close eventually they would win.

It would be an impressive way to commit suicide, but the glitter boys are doomed. In the relatively open hivelands, their range and nearly one-shot kill capacity would do terrible things to the (relatively) slow flying xiticix, but some of the smarter variants may try to sneak in closer while the standard warriors hold the attention, and once its down to short-range/melee, the bugs mop the floor with glitter boys. Each GB pilot's kill ratio would be impressive though.

The GB legion would be well served to select an advantageous location within range of a Xiticix hive, fortify their position and stock it with plenty of ammo. I'm hardly a student of military tactics, but given the GB's damage output and extreme range, I imagine something like a good sized hill carved up into terraced trenches would allow for maximum concentration of fire at incoming airborne Xiticix while minimizing the footprint of the legion. Then bait the Hive and draw them to the killing field. When the legion is eventually in danger of being overrun, that's when bombers and other aerial assets begin blasting the Hive itself to pieces. Either the attacking swarm will return to defend the Hive, allowing the legion to retreat, or its defenses will be sufficiently depleted that it might be possible to destroy it while the GB legion heroically sacrifices itself to end the d-bee menace.

I just looked at my copy of Free Quebec. Looking at the breakdown percentages of the Different Glitter Boys and their support, part of that 1000 is 480 Side Kicks, 106 reload teams, 100-300 other power armors/combat borgs/special troops (I will go with 300 for argument's sake). This leaves 114 troops for mechanics, medics, communications and logistics. Now lets make those 300 random PA's/Cyborgs: 50 Power Troopers, 25 Pale Death SAMAS, 25 V-SAM, 150 SAMAS, 20 Imprimer Borgs, 20 Slasher Borgs, 15 Standard Heavy Combat Borgs (RUE version).

As for the Glitter Boys themselves, if you have half of them that require ammo fire while the others are held in reserve until the first half needs to reload and also have the ones using energy based weapons (unlimited ammo) keep up constant covering fire you can make the ammo stretch out a bit longer. With 50% of the Glitter Boys being the original type (with Rimouski Weapon Package and vibro-sword) they can all fire 128,000 rounds before reloading. The Taurus GB can fire 1536 mortars (assuming they are all using the mortars cannons instead of heavy laser cannons). The 384 Glitter Girls can reload their own weapons (two actions) and still fire energy blasts, putting out 38,400 explosive shells before reloading. To make a long string of numbers shorter ( I know, too late) they can put a lot of rounds in the air before they have to reload. We are not even counting what the support troops can put to use which can be pretty impressive in and of itself.

In the long run, I would have to say that if they hit and retreat, the GB Legion could kill about 300k to 500k Xit's before they retreat. If they were forced to fight to the death, I would have to say that number would max out at 1-1/2 to 2 million Xit's dead.

Mack wrote:The GB's have a 1,000 rounds each. The payload was updated in Free Quebec and thereafter.

Sorry but still listed at 100 rounds in my copy of Free Quebec.

Icefalcon wrote:

Mack wrote:The GB's have a 1,000 rounds each. The payload was updated in Free Quebec and thereafter.

Sorry but still listed at 100 rounds in my copy of Free Quebec.

They're updated to 1000 round capacity in RUE.

Icefalcon wrote:

Mack wrote:The GB's have a 1,000 rounds each. The payload was updated in Free Quebec and thereafter.

Sorry but still listed at 100 rounds in my copy of Free Quebec.

and if check your write ups, you'll find the reserve bin having 400 rounds in most copies. it was a typo that palladium 'corrected' the wrong direction during a reprint, then canonized with RUE.

given they didn't alter the dimensions of the boomgun rounds, all glitterboys now carry more volume in ammo than the entire suits take up themselves.

glitterboy2098 wrote:

Icefalcon wrote:

Mack wrote:The GB's have a 1,000 rounds each. The payload was updated in Free Quebec and thereafter.

Sorry but still listed at 100 rounds in my copy of Free Quebec.

and if check your write ups, you'll find the reserve bin having 400 rounds in most copies. it was a typo that palladium 'corrected' the wrong direction during a reprint, then canonized with RUE.

given they didn't alter the dimensions of the boomgun rounds, all glitter boys now carry more volume in ammo than the entire suits take up themselves.

Looking at the 400 round backup on the GB in FQ, the rounds have to be loaded by hand by the GB itself. However, the machine on the reload team's vehicle takes 45 second (3 rounds) only to reload one GB.

i think the GB's could actually win this. But this is rifts so all the ppe drew in an alien intelligence. should have a psi stalker unit toprevent that lol.

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Talavar wrote:It would be an impressive way to commit suicide, but the glitter boys are doomed. In the relatively open hivelands, their range and nearly one-shot kill capacity would do terrible things to the (relatively) slow flying xiticix, but some of the smarter variants may try to sneak in closer while the standard warriors hold the attention, and once its down to short-range/melee, the bugs mop the floor with glitter boys. Each GB pilot's kill ratio would be impressive though.

Assuming that the terrain allowed them to sneak, then yes. However, the group would have to be large enough to overwhelm support personnel. Meanwhile the Xit Hunter possesses the fastest flight speed at 124 MPH which would still take them 4 full rounds (2.6 for weapon range) if they where travelling a direct route. Longer if they where going a roundabout way.

With 2,560 Shots per attack and a 85% chance to hit (+1 to strike in total), assuming that the bugs are either killed or knocked down:
2,176 Xits have been taken from the frontline in one attack!
With 6 attacks per melee minimum the pilots kill/incapacitate 13,056 Xits a round!
The glitterboys can continuously fire without need for reloading for 166 rounds:
2,167,296 Bugs will have a bad day before the echoing of boomguns falls silent!
How many are there even in a hive?

Only 1664 of the GB's would have the boom gun. 128 would have particle beam cannons, 128 would have dual mortar cannons, 256 with "shaker" cannons, 384 with "Double up" assault cannon. That is not counting the borgs and back-up PA's.

i still think the GB's could possibly win.

Johnnycat93 wrote:In my second post I said that all my numbers are under the assumption that all 2,560 glitterboys are classics (less variation=less uncertainty).

The OP listed this as a "typical" Glitter Boy legion. I was using the numbers given in Free Quebec for the breakdown number.

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Icefalcon wrote:

Johnnycat93 wrote:In my second post I said that all my numbers are under the assumption that all 2,560 glitterboys are classics (less variation=less uncertainty).

The OP listed this as a "typical" Glitter Boy legion. I was using the numbers given in Free Quebec for the breakdown number.

I'm aware, I'm not saying your wrong I'm just saying that my numbers are for a legion of 2,560 classics. I could do the numbers for an actual legion but A) That's a lot more work B) I hate most of the variants and don't want to look at them

I can understand that. For myself, I would much rather have the versatility of the multiple types. You could keep the energy weapons firing while the boom guns are getting reloaded. Even then, I would only have half the boom guns firing at a time so that when the first group takes 19 rounds (3 round for each Boom Gun, 106 GB's at a time) which comes out to almost five minutes to reload 640 GB's. Even then, it would only take the other 1/2 17 rounds of shooting to empty 100 round (if you use that number) or 125 rounds to empty 1000 shots (if you prefer that number).

I see this topic, for some reason, turning into a robotech mecha style campaign of cleansing.

SittingBull wrote:I see this topic, for some reason, turning into a robotech mecha style campaign of cleansing.

I hope not.

WB 23: Xiticix Invasion had estimates of 3 to 4 million Xiticix in 105 PA, increasing to 30+ million by 109 PA if unchecked. Now, in that interval, Lazlo & the psi-stalkers have been waging a war/extermination of sorts, combined with some CS action & bounty hunting on Xiticix, so the 30+ million estimate would be too high - let's say half that number exist now (unless someone else knows a reference, this is my best estimate for Xiticix numbers in 109 PA).

So that's 15 million divided by 6 main hives in Minnesota/Manitoba, for an approximation of 2.5 million xiticix per hive. The fighting castes of Xiticix make up 51% of an average hive, so that's 1.25 million fighting Xiticix, divided further between warriors (vast majority), super warriors, hunters & leapers.

An important thing to remember is that the Xiticix, while alien and hive-based, aren't stupid or mindless - the average warrior is about as smart as an average human; the super-warrior, hunter, and queens are significantly smarter. If an initial swarm attack doesn't work (or simultaneously with a swarm attack) others may come up through the underground tunnels that litter the hivelands, or new tunnels dug by the digging caste. The area of the major hives aren't solitary towers as well, but dozens of sub-towers, all with hundreds to thousands of MDC that could be used to break up the glitter boys tremendous range.

I would be very foolish for the GB's to allow themselves to be drawn into the hive itself.

Would definitely be a campaign of long range suppression fire.

Icefalcon wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:

Icefalcon wrote:

Mack wrote:The GB's have a 1,000 rounds each. The payload was updated in Free Quebec and thereafter.

Sorry but still listed at 100 rounds in my copy of Free Quebec.

and if check your write ups, you'll find the reserve bin having 400 rounds in most copies. it was a typo that palladium 'corrected' the wrong direction during a reprint, then canonized with RUE.

given they didn't alter the dimensions of the boomgun rounds, all glitter boys now carry more volume in ammo than the entire suits take up themselves.

Looking at the 400 round backup on the GB in FQ, the rounds have to be loaded by hand by the GB itself. However, the machine on the reload team's vehicle takes 45 second (3 rounds) only to reload one GB.

actually, my point was that it had always been 100/40 in prior write ups, and in other boomgun entries in the same book.
palladium 'fixed' the 100/400 entry by adding an extra "0" to the main ammo bin in later printings and books.

given that no other PA or robot firing bursts of rounds or bigass cannon shots carry more than 100 bursts/shots, the GB having an order of magnitude more shots is really screwed up.

One thing I've wondered about, and isn't covered in Xiticix Invasion, is the effect of sonic booms on Xiticix. On p37 it discusses their vulnerability to sonic weapons and vibration, but only speaks of magic/supernatural sounds. One would think that a Boom Gun is loud enough to affect the bugs as well, but there's no text on it (either for or against). At a minimum I'd apply the normal Boom Gun's sound penalties, but reason says they should disorient the bugs more.

Mack wrote:One thing I've wondered about, and isn't covered in Xiticix Invasion, is the effect of sonic booms on Xiticix. On p37 it discusses their vulnerability to sonic weapons and vibration, but only speaks of magic/supernatural sounds. One would think that a Boom Gun is loud enough to affect the bugs as well, but there's no text on it (either for or against). At a minimum I'd apply the normal Boom Gun's sound penalties, but reason says they should disorient the bugs more.

If sonic booms affected them, that could make a difference.

I'd say Glitter Boys FTW. If the merc crew in Mercenaries can take out an entire hive, surely an entire frickin' legion of GBs can.

/Sub

Lets hope. ^^

glitterboy2098 wrote:

Icefalcon wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:

Icefalcon wrote:

Mack wrote:The GB's have a 1,000 rounds each. The payload was updated in Free Quebec and thereafter.

Sorry but still listed at 100 rounds in my copy of Free Quebec.

and if check your write ups, you'll find the reserve bin having 400 rounds in most copies. it was a typo that palladium 'corrected' the wrong direction during a reprint, then canonized with RUE.

given they didn't alter the dimensions of the boomgun rounds, all glitter boys now carry more volume in ammo than the entire suits take up themselves.

Looking at the 400 round backup on the GB in FQ, the rounds have to be loaded by hand by the GB itself. However, the machine on the reload team's vehicle takes 45 second (3 rounds) only to reload one GB.

actually, my point was that it had always been 100/40 in prior write ups, and in other boomgun entries in the same book.
palladium 'fixed' the 100/400 entry by adding an extra "0" to the main ammo bin in later printings and books.

given that no other PA or robot firing bursts of rounds or bigass cannon shots carry more than 100 bursts/shots, the GB having an order of magnitude more shots is really screwed up.

I agree. I still use the 100 shots entry.

Mack wrote:One thing I've wondered about, and isn't covered in Xiticix Invasion, is the effect of sonic booms on Xiticix. On p37 it discusses their vulnerability to sonic weapons and vibration, but only speaks of magic/supernatural sounds. One would think that a Boom Gun is loud enough to affect the bugs as well, but there's no text on it (either for or against). At a minimum I'd apply the normal Boom Gun's sound penalties, but reason says they should disorient the bugs more.

I would apply the effects of the sonic boom to them in addition to the penalties they take from sonic sources.

Subjugator wrote:I'd say Glitter Boys FTW. If the merc crew in Mercenaries can take out an entire hive, surely an entire frickin' legion of GBs can.

/Sub

Agreed.

at some point, the xiticix charge will be coming from underneath the glitterboys. not at first (they'll start with swarms in the air, as always), but it will happen eventually. the glitter boy legion will do a lot of damage. but it will eventually fall, unless they run away (and manage to do that successfully, instead of getting picked off when they no longer have their pylons deployed).

Reload vehicles have no weapons, Sky Hawks (assuming there any) can carry 14 GB's (with for deployed on side platforms so they can fire the boom guns) and mount double laser turret and mini-missiles, Cougar Hover Jeep (probably in use by scouts and communications troops) mount 3 sets of lasers and mini missiles, Bobcat hover cycle (if used) mounts laser turret, rail gun and mini missiles, Mark V APC (most likely in use for other borg and PA troops) mounts multiple lasers, rail guns and mini missiles, Side Kick (definitely present) mounts grenade launcher as main weapon, Power Trooper (present in my previous breakdown) mounts laser rifle and mini missiles, Pale Death SAMAS (present) rail gun and mini missiles, V-SAM (present) mounts laser and mini missiles. The Slasher borg also mounts mini missiles. This all does not take into account that the guys not in power armor/borg/vehicle are likely to have grenades, fusion blocks, grenade launcher, rocket launchers and other such heavy ordinance are likely to be present also.

Granted, the numbers of actual missiles present are not many but they would be effective in volleys of a few hundred in any direction they are pointed.

Johnnycat93 wrote:Just checked, diggers have a rate of 10 ft per round for a tunnel!
This type of tunnel will only fit one warrior, single file for each digger constructing it and is unreinforced (laying down MDC resin and letting it dry takes more time).
With that speed it would take them 1100 rounds to reach the glitterboys (assuming an extremely shallow tunnel), roughly 4 and a half hours!!!

if you presume there aren't any tunnels already there. as has been pointed out already, if you're in hive lands, you're in an area that has many small outposts, some connected to others, and most will have tunnels all over the place. if you're *deep* in hive lands, and you try to retreat when the swarm pulls back to let them dig tunnels, you may run into an ambush on the way back.

also, it's possible you may be using the wrong numbers for the bugs. i don't mean that you might have done the math wrong either (i don't think we can conclusively show how many bugs lazlo killed, etc)... i mean literally, depending on where you look, the number of bugs is wildly different. for example, for a hive to split, it first must be full. for their to be 6 hives, that means there's a lot more than 15 million bugs.

the question is, which number is the correct one? both are official, and they completely contradict each other.

GBs would have the upper hand until they enter a hive, slow movers against fast movers in tight areas , fast movers win.
The boom guns could work but they have to be delivering contast shots, hit or miss over prolong time, but once it moves underground that sonic boom could work against the glitterboys.

I was looking at the numbers last night as well just for curiosity. The average Xit speed is 60mph with the warriors averaging 80mph.

This means it takes two one full minute for for every xit from max range to get into max xit firing range of 4000 feet. This means that the glitterboys have 4 full melee rounds where they can be totally stationary feet planted and devote all of their attacks to shooting. Say the entire legion is level 1 GB pilots which is not realistic but gives you 6 attacks per melee round. This gives you the low estimate of 61k rounds fired at the xiticics before they even have a chance to respond. The average MDC of a xiticix which depends on type so can be higher or lower is about 70 mdc. The average damage of a boomgun is 90 mdc.

This totally disregards any offense from the 1k support troups most of which have at least a few mini missiles.

Basically it is a matter of how exactly the xiticix come in and how long the ammo holds out. If the xiticix are not massing in one huge swarm but instead are going out in long streamers as pictured in a lot of the images of them they would have a hard time even getting a shot off. The real danger would be if the xitx gathered in a big tightly packed clump and then went all at once to just saturate the defenders with targets but that makes them vulnerable to explosive weapons taking out big masses of them.

The outcome would really depend on how deep in the hivelands the GB's are and how big of a hive are they close to. If it is a smaller hive and they have enough ammo they may be able to stalemate the fight and do a fighting withdrawl. If they were up against a big hive or deep in the hivelands eventually they run out of ammo and die but they would carve a massive swath of destruction. Probably looking at a minimum of 250k dead xiticix probably much more maybe as much as half a million depending on the ammo supply available.

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Talavar wrote:It would be an impressive way to commit suicide, but the glitter boys are doomed. In the relatively open hivelands, their range and nearly one-shot kill capacity would do terrible things to the (relatively) slow flying xiticix, but some of the smarter variants may try to sneak in closer while the standard warriors hold the attention, and once its down to short-range/melee, the bugs mop the floor with glitter boys. Each GB pilot's kill ratio would be impressive though.

Assuming that the terrain allowed them to sneak, then yes. However, the group would have to be large enough to overwhelm support personnel. Meanwhile the Xit Hunter possesses the fastest flight speed at 124 MPH which would still take them 4 full rounds (2.6 for weapon range) if they where travelling a direct route. Longer if they where going a roundabout way.

With 2,560 Shots per attack and a 65% chance to hit (+1 to strike in total), assuming that the bugs are either killed or knocked down:
1,664 Xits have been taken from the frontline in one attack!
With 6 attacks per melee minimum the pilots kill/incapacitate 9,984 Xits a round!
The glitterboys can continuously fire without need for reloading for 27 rounds:
269,568 Bugs will have a bad day before the echoing of boomguns falls silent!
How many are there even in a hive?
Edit Numbers changed, messed up on some of the math.

Icefalcon wrote:

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Talavar wrote:It would be an impressive way to commit suicide, but the glitter boys are doomed. In the relatively open hivelands, their range and nearly one-shot kill capacity would do terrible things to the (relatively) slow flying xiticix, but some of the smarter variants may try to sneak in closer while the standard warriors hold the attention, and once its down to short-range/melee, the bugs mop the floor with glitter boys. Each GB pilot's kill ratio would be impressive though.

Assuming that the terrain allowed them to sneak, then yes. However, the group would have to be large enough to overwhelm support personnel. Meanwhile the Xit Hunter possesses the fastest flight speed at 124 MPH which would still take them 4 full rounds (2.6 for weapon range) if they where travelling a direct route. Longer if they where going a roundabout way.

With 2,560 Shots per attack and a 85% chance to hit (+1 to strike in total), assuming that the bugs are either killed or knocked down:
2,176 Xits have been taken from the frontline in one attack!
With 6 attacks per melee minimum the pilots kill/incapacitate 13,056 Xits a round!
The glitterboys can continuously fire without need for reloading for 166 rounds:
2,167,296 Bugs will have a bad day before the echoing of boomguns falls silent!
How many are there even in a hive?

Only 1664 of the GB's would have the boom gun. 128 would have particle beam cannons, 128 would have dual mortar cannons, 256 with "shaker" cannons, 384 with "Double up" assault cannon. That is not counting the borgs and back-up PA's.

I went under the original assumption of them all using boom guns. All but a couple of the GB varients can use the boom guns so the actual number is hard to say so for simplicity went old school. Frankly I am not sure why any GB pilot would use the double up assault cannon and the shaker is pretty questionable of anything capable of using a boom gun especially if they have 1000 rounds. Now with the old payload of 100 rounds they are much more valid choices but why use something that does one third the damage with half to one third the range of the boomgun when your armor is capable of handling a boom gun?

Shark_Force wrote:

Johnnycat93 wrote:Just checked, diggers have a rate of 10 ft per round for a tunnel!
This type of tunnel will only fit one warrior, single file for each digger constructing it and is unreinforced (laying down MDC resin and letting it dry takes more time).
With that speed it would take them 1100 rounds to reach the glitterboys (assuming an extremely shallow tunnel), roughly 4 and a half hours!!!

if you presume there aren't any tunnels already there. as has been pointed out already, if you're in hive lands, you're in an area that has many small outposts, some connected to others, and most will have tunnels all over the place. if you're *deep* in hive lands, and you try to retreat when the swarm pulls back to let them dig tunnels, you may run into an ambush on the way back.

also, it's possible you may be using the wrong numbers for the bugs. i don't mean that you might have done the math wrong either (i don't think we can conclusively show how many bugs lazlo killed, etc)... i mean literally, depending on where you look, the number of bugs is wildly different. for example, for a hive to split, it first must be full. for their to be 6 hives, that means there's a lot more than 15 million bugs.

the question is, which number is the correct one? both are official, and they completely contradict each other.

The 500 million number is for a hive to split; the 6 "hives" on Rifts earth are all really colonies of the same hive - they all get along. The 500 million number is for when Xiticix start going after Xiticix if territory is limited. 15 million is a rough estimate based on in-setting projections for 109 PA, divided by losses from Lazlo, CS and psi-stalker operations against the Xits. It could easily be 20 or 25 million, or maybe as low as 10 million (though I find that unlikely).

Johnnycat93 wrote:

Shark_Force wrote:

Johnnycat93 wrote:Just checked, diggers have a rate of 10 ft per round for a tunnel!
This type of tunnel will only fit one warrior, single file for each digger constructing it and is unreinforced (laying down MDC resin and letting it dry takes more time).
With that speed it would take them 1100 rounds to reach the glitterboys (assuming an extremely shallow tunnel), roughly 4 and a half hours!!!

if you presume there aren't any tunnels already there. as has been pointed out already, if you're in hive lands, you're in an area that has many small outposts, some connected to others, and most will have tunnels all over the place. if you're *deep* in hive lands, and you try to retreat when the swarm pulls back to let them dig tunnels, you may run into an ambush on the way back.

also, it's possible you may be using the wrong numbers for the bugs. i don't mean that you might have done the math wrong either (i don't think we can conclusively show how many bugs lazlo killed, etc)... i mean literally, depending on where you look, the number of bugs is wildly different. for example, for a hive to split, it first must be full. for their to be 6 hives, that means there's a lot more than 15 million bugs.

the question is, which number is the correct one? both are official, and they completely contradict each other.

Digging Speed out of WB:23
And as the terrain has yet to be dedined I haven't given it to either of them. The GBs could just as well be outside of the hive territory striking with their incredible range.

Glitter boy range is 2 miles. The hive lands are hundreds of miles around each tower complex - there's no standing outside and shooting in happening with anything but long range missiles.

I don't think a single GB legion could successfully by itself take out one of the hives. It could devestate its inhabitants but I don't think they would have the ammo to punch their way through to the hive and once inside the glitter boys would be at a disadvantage.

Now if that legion had full air support it may be possible. Given the low flight ceiling of the xiticis it is pretty easy to fly above their hive and just bomb the bajesus out of it. Combine that kind of strikes followed up by LRM's launched from bases inside free quebec territory itself combined with a GB legion on the ground I think they would have a reasonable chance of getting to the hive alive and one option is to simply use the boom guns as mining tools. Instead of going into the hive use their power and just turn the hive and everything under it into a giant smoking crater.

Talavar wrote:WB 23: Xiticix Invasion had estimates of 3 to 4 million Xiticix in 105 PA, increasing to 30+ million by 109 PA if unchecked.

That was the Coalition's estimate, not the official estimate.
The Coalition's in-game knowledge is far from complete, and can assumed to be inaccurate compared to the canon information that we have from that same book.
Kind of like how if a book listed Person X's height at 6' tall, and later mentioned "NPC Joe estimates Person X to be about 2.5" tall," the logical conclusion is that the NPC is correct, not the book stats.

Here's what the books says about Xiticix numbers:

Xiticix Invasion, p. 22-23:
When a xiticix colony reaches 300 million members, it splits into 1d6 new colonies, each of roughly the same size. Each of those colonies will keep growing until it exceeds 200 million in population.
The Duluth Hive is the largest hive colony on Rifts Earth, and it spawned the other five, which were each 4-6 years old in 105 PA.
This would imply that there are at least 300 million Xiticix on Rifts Earth, since the original Duluth colony got large enough to split into 6 equally populated hives, and then each hive had 4-6 years to grow.
Also, the Duluth Hive is once again large enough that it is still producing queens and seeking to establish new colonies (though the other colonies are still too small).
300 million originally, split 6 ways = 50 million per colony.
If the Duluth Hive is seeking to make new colonies because it's reached the 200 Million mark, then that's another +150 million bugs, not counting the growth the other colonies have achieved in that time (it's save to assume the Duluth Hive grew faster due to better infrastructure and resources).
So that's at least 450 million bugs as of the XI book.

Aftermath gives us a better picture, which I have commented on before:

Aftermath, 69

Left unchecked for these past four or five years, the Xiticix population has continued to explode, not quite at a geometric rate, but close to it. Soon, swarms from each hive will go forth with a new, young Queen to start their own hive and increase the current Hivelands range by 33%.

This passage is self-explanatory; the population has exploded at close to a geometric rate, and the hives are ready to create new colonies.

The Xiticix population has grown steadily over the war years, and like an overripe tomato, threatens to burst and spill into the fallen defeated Kingdom of Tolkeen, as well as northern Wisconsin and possibly the state of Iron Heart and upper Michigan.

As with the first passage, the picture is pretty clear: the xiticix population, like an overripe tomato, is more than full- it is swollen to the point of bursting.
And we have an idea of what constitutes "full" for a hive (200-300 million bugs).

Though the Xiticix constantly encroached on the Kingdom of Tolkeen and there would have been eventual conflict, the insectoids saw the Tolkeenites as the dominant force in the region and held off. However, with the dramatic fall of Tolkeen and the mass exodus of its people, to the Xiticix, this indicates the region is "up for grabs," and the Coalition Army a new competitor for the land. This in and of itself could cause the Xiticix of the hives bordering on or located in upper Minnesota to expand into the now unclaimed (as they see it) land south of them, as well as offer new opportunities for the half dozen new queens about to splinter from the established hives. The expansion of the Duluth Hive has already begun and Crookston and Fargo should soon follow.

That first sentence shows that the xiticix were ready, willing, and able to start moving into that territory the moment Tolkeen wasn't an issue, something that the bugs wouldn't do (not in more than outpost numbers, anyway) if they weren't at their full population levels.
This passage doesn't explain why the bugs are expanding (that was already explained in the first two passages I quoted), it explains why they're expanding into the Tolkeen area.
When competing for resources, you first grab the resources that the competition is after.
Furthermore, the second to last sentence shows that the Xiticix had a half-dozen new queens already about to splinter from established hives- the fall of Tolkeen only provided them with a good opportunity to actually do so.

So each of the hives in Rifts Earth has a minimum of 200 million xiticix in it, probably closer to 300 million ("swollen to the point of bursting").

Furthermore, this is using the conservative numbers. Page 12 of Xiticix Invasion puts the splitting off numbers at 500 million.

In short, a single xiticix colony has an absolute minimum of 50 million xiticix in it, and that's if the colony is brand, spankin' new.
The colonies on Rifts Earth have about 200-500 million each, putting the total population of xiticix at 1.2-3 billion bugs.

Killer Cyborg wrote:So each of the hives in Rifts Earth has a minimum of 200 million xiticix in it, probably closer to 300 million ("swollen to the point of bursting").

Furthermore, this is using the conservative numbers. Page 12 of Xiticix Invasion puts the splitting off numbers at 500 million.

In short, a single xiticix colony has an absolute minimum of 50 million xiticix in it, and that's if the colony is brand, spankin' new.
The colonies on Rifts Earth have about 200-500 million each, putting the total population of xiticix at 1.2-3 billion bugs.

Page 23 of Xiticix Invasion explains that normally hives split at 200 million (though said to be 500 million elsewhere), there is a specific note, saying: "this has yet to happen on Rifts Earth. The five that have grown from the original hive were created as a direct choice of that colony's Elder Queen." The Xiticix have their normal routine, as you've quoted, but are not blindly committed to it, and as stated in Xiticix Invasion, can and have varied from that routine at the queens' discretion. The Aftermath description, while suggestive, is also metaphorical.

So those numbers are too high, the Coalition's estimates may well be too low, but that leaves us estimating based on almost nothing. There are probably tens to hundreds of millions of Xits, but billions are too high.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Talavar wrote:WB 23: Xiticix Invasion had estimates of 3 to 4 million Xiticix in 105 PA, increasing to 30+ million by 109 PA if unchecked.

That was the Coalition's estimate, not the official estimate.
The Coalition's in-game knowledge is far from complete, and can assumed to be inaccurate compared to the canon information that we have from that same book.
Kind of like how if a book listed Person X's height at 6' tall, and later mentioned "NPC Joe estimates Person X to be about 2.5" tall," the logical conclusion is that the NPC is correct, not the book stats.

Here's what the books says about Xiticix numbers:

Xiticix Invasion, p. 22-23:
When a xiticix colony reaches 300 million members, it splits into 1d6 new colonies, each of roughly the same size. Each of those colonies will keep growing until it exceeds 200 million in population.
The Duluth Hive is the largest hive colony on Rifts Earth, and it spawned the other five, which were each 4-6 years old in 105 PA.
This would imply that there are at least 300 million Xiticix on Rifts Earth, since the original Duluth colony got large enough to split into 6 equally populated hives, and then each hive had 4-6 years to grow.
Also, the Duluth Hive is once again large enough that it is still producing queens and seeking to establish new colonies (though the other colonies are still too small).
300 million originally, split 6 ways = 50 million per colony.
If the Duluth Hive is seeking to make new colonies because it's reached the 200 Million mark, then that's another +150 million bugs, not counting the growth the other colonies have achieved in that time (it's save to assume the Duluth Hive grew faster due to better infrastructure and resources).
So that's at least 450 million bugs as of the XI book.

Aftermath gives us a better picture, which I have commented on before:

Aftermath, 69

Left unchecked for these past four or five years, the Xiticix population has continued to explode, not quite at a geometric rate, but close to it. Soon, swarms from each hive will go forth with a new, young Queen to start their own hive and increase the current Hivelands range by 33%.

This passage is self-explanatory; the population has exploded at close to a geometric rate, and the hives are ready to create new colonies.

The Xiticix population has grown steadily over the war years, and like an overripe tomato, threatens to burst and spill into the fallen defeated Kingdom of Tolkeen, as well as northern Wisconsin and possibly the state of Iron Heart and upper Michigan.

As with the first passage, the picture is pretty clear: the xiticix population, like an overripe tomato, is more than full- it is swollen to the point of bursting.
And we have an idea of what constitutes "full" for a hive (200-300 million bugs).

Though the Xiticix constantly encroached on the Kingdom of Tolkeen and there would have been eventual conflict, the insectoids saw the Tolkeenites as the dominant force in the region and held off. However, with the dramatic fall of Tolkeen and the mass exodus of its people, to the Xiticix, this indicates the region is "up for grabs," and the Coalition Army a new competitor for the land. This in and of itself could cause the Xiticix of the hives bordering on or located in upper Minnesota to expand into the now unclaimed (as they see it) land south of them, as well as offer new opportunities for the half dozen new queens about to splinter from the established hives. The expansion of the Duluth Hive has already begun and Crookston and Fargo should soon follow.

That first sentence shows that the xiticix were ready, willing, and able to start moving into that territory the moment Tolkeen wasn't an issue, something that the bugs wouldn't do (not in more than outpost numbers, anyway) if they weren't at their full population levels.
This passage doesn't explain why the bugs are expanding (that was already explained in the first two passages I quoted), it explains why they're expanding into the Tolkeen area.
When competing for resources, you first grab the resources that the competition is after.
Furthermore, the second to last sentence shows that the Xiticix had a half-dozen new queens already about to splinter from established hives- the fall of Tolkeen only provided them with a good opportunity to actually do so.

So each of the hives in Rifts Earth has a minimum of 200 million xiticix in it, probably closer to 300 million ("swollen to the point of bursting").

Furthermore, this is using the conservative numbers. Page 12 of Xiticix Invasion puts the splitting off numbers at 500 million.

In short, a single xiticix colony has an absolute minimum of 50 million xiticix in it, and that's if the colony is brand, spankin' new.
The colonies on Rifts Earth have about 200-500 million each, putting the total population of xiticix at 1.2-3 billion bugs.

Yup although they have not put official numbers given what has been stated the total population could have reached the billion mark. One thing though makes me think that number is on the high side is if it really were that high there is nothing anybody around them could have done to check them. Sheer numbers alone they would be able to expand anywhere at will regardless of the defenses. I think we are probably looking at something between the extremes probably in the 200 million range total population wise. I mainly say that because if it is more than that then the only possible cannon response would be the CS realizing how huge the swarm is and using their city buster nukes and hitting that whole area until it glows and hitting it some more. From an environmental impact they would not want to do this but if the numbers really are in the billions the only chance anybody would have would be large scale nuke strikes. It is very likely that even that would not kill off the queens far underground but it would eliminate most surface and tower dwelling xiticix and probably a majority of the ones in the tunnels below.

Well I guess one other possibility is the whole megaverse in flames thing. Potentially the demon hordes coming out of calgary intersect with some of the newly established hives and then you get demon hordes hitting xiticix swarms. That conflict could potentially bleed both forces enough to let others finish both of them off.

Talavar wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:So each of the hives in Rifts Earth has a minimum of 200 million xiticix in it, probably closer to 300 million ("swollen to the point of bursting").

Furthermore, this is using the conservative numbers. Page 12 of Xiticix Invasion puts the splitting off numbers at 500 million.

In short, a single xiticix colony has an absolute minimum of 50 million xiticix in it, and that's if the colony is brand, spankin' new.
The colonies on Rifts Earth have about 200-500 million each, putting the total population of xiticix at 1.2-3 billion bugs.

Page 23 of Xiticix Invasion explains that normally hives split at 200 million (though said to be 500 million elsewhere), there is a specific note, saying: "this has yet to happen on Rifts Earth. The five that have grown from the original hive were created as a direct choice of that colony's Elder Queen." The Xiticix have their normal routine, as you've quoted, but are not blindly committed to it, and as stated in Xiticix Invasion, can and have varied from that routine at the queens' discretion. The Aftermath description, while suggestive, is also metaphorical.

So those numbers are too high, the Coalition's estimates may well be too low, but that leaves us estimating based on almost nothing. There are probably tens to hundreds of millions of Xits, but billions are too high.

This is pretty much what throws the calculations on their size into the realm of nobody really knows what the population is. The original hive queen found a mostly uninhabited area so she expanded well before her hive was full. I think the whole hive splitting at 500 million only happens in areas so saturated they simply cannot expand normally and once it hits 500 million the area simply cannot support more so they split regardless of what is around them. Given that xit queens are intelligent and the area around them is still pretty sparesly populated many of the splinter hives are being driven by choice not need as they are still freely avoiding other "hives" territories like tolkeen/CS held areas. So unfortunately we are in a position of really having no firm idea what the population is like. Given that everybody has been distracted and the comments from aftermath I am guessing the numbers are MUCH higher than the listed CS estimates but below the xititicpocalypse numbers of the 1-3 billion.

Talavar wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:So each of the hives in Rifts Earth has a minimum of 200 million xiticix in it, probably closer to 300 million ("swollen to the point of bursting").

Furthermore, this is using the conservative numbers. Page 12 of Xiticix Invasion puts the splitting off numbers at 500 million.

In short, a single xiticix colony has an absolute minimum of 50 million xiticix in it, and that's if the colony is brand, spankin' new.
The colonies on Rifts Earth have about 200-500 million each, putting the total population of xiticix at 1.2-3 billion bugs.

Page 23 of Xiticix Invasion explains that normally hives split at 200 million (though said to be 500 million elsewhere), there is a specific note, saying: "this has yet to happen on Rifts Earth. The five that have grown from the original hive were created as a direct choice of that colony's Elder Queen."

The full quote is this:
These sub-groups within the colony are independent of the Elder Queen and each of these non-aligned, new Queen "courts" are allowed to go free with their Queen to try to form a new hive of their own. Typically, after leaving their birth hive, each prospective young Queen and her entourage will battle the other young Queens and their courts until there is only one winner- survival of the fittest. The survivors of each group that loses their young Queen (it is their job to protect her) are completely destroyed by their rivals. There is no assimilation of any survivors, except for the occasional Nanny. Nannies will sometimes be captured and assimilated because of their important role in the growth of the new hive colony. This same process occurs when a new Hive Network (like the one on Rifts Earth) approaches or exceeds the 200 million mark In this case, the young queens may batle but because there currently is ample room for expansion, as many as a third will avoid such conflict and simply go away to start a new colony in an unchallenged space. However, such new hives are likely to be 300-500 miles or farther away form the hive that spawned them. NOTE: This has yet to happen on Rifts Earth. The five that have grown from the original hive were created as a direct choice of that colony's Elder Queen. While all six see each other as independent and potential rivals, there is so much space that there is no need for them to fight.

What the paragraph is describing is a process where prospective young queens within a colony each establish their own court, then try to form new hives of their own.
"This same process occurs" in a new Hive Network (like Rifts) when it reaches the 200 million mark.
The Note that "this" has yet to happen is referring to the competition between potential queens and/or Queens; hence the further comment that "there is so much space that there is no need for them to fight."
It's talking about fighting between Queens.

The Aftermath description, while suggestive, is also metaphorical.

It IS metaphorical, in that the hives are not going to literally burst.
But the meaning is clear; their population limits are reaching a maximum, which is why the "colony" hives that split off from the original are getting ready to split again in the near future of 109 PA.
And we know that their population limit is 200 million (or, depending, 500 million).

glitterboy2098 wrote:

Icefalcon wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:

Icefalcon wrote:

Mack wrote:The GB's have a 1,000 rounds each. The payload was updated in Free Quebec and thereafter.

Sorry but still listed at 100 rounds in my copy of Free Quebec.

and if check your write ups, you'll find the reserve bin having 400 rounds in most copies. it was a typo that palladium 'corrected' the wrong direction during a reprint, then canonized with RUE.

given they didn't alter the dimensions of the boomgun rounds, all glitter boys now carry more volume in ammo than the entire suits take up themselves.

Looking at the 400 round backup on the GB in FQ, the rounds have to be loaded by hand by the GB itself. However, the machine on the reload team's vehicle takes 45 second (3 rounds) only to reload one GB.

actually, my point was that it had always been 100/40 in prior write ups, and in other boomgun entries in the same book.
palladium 'fixed' the 100/400 entry by adding an extra "0" to the main ammo bin in later printings and books.

given that no other PA or robot firing bursts of rounds or bigass cannon shots carry more than 100 bursts/shots, the GB having an order of magnitude more shots is really screwed up.

It is messed up but think about this. Those 1,000 rounds have to last an adventuring GB how long? Probably long time. Playing a GB comes down to ammo/armor conservation.

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:GBs would have the upper hand until they enter a hive, slow movers against fast movers in tight areas , fast movers win.
The boom guns could work but they have to be delivering contast shots, hit or miss over prolong time, but once it moves underground that sonic boom could work against the glitterboys.

If the sonic booms underground were more concentrated then that would also affect the bugs worse.

This means that the glitterboys have 4 full melee rounds where they can be totally stationary feet planted and devote all of their attacks to shooting.



>>>>>>> Its not like it takes an action to plant the pylons (which I think it should). The pilot hits the fire switch, the pylons deploy, the gun fires, and the pylons retract; that's one action.

Now if that legion had full air support it may be possible. Given the low flight ceiling of the xiticis it is pretty easy to fly above their hive and just bomb the bajesus out of it.



>>>>>>> I was just thinking 'bomb it' BUT could there be ramifications from whiping out millions of lives at once? Like a ley line storm, Rift, Dimensional shift (who would see that coming)?



Combine that kind of strikes followed up by LRM's launched from bases inside free quebec territory itself combined with a GB legion on the ground I think they would have a reasonable chance of getting to the hive alive and one option is to simply use the boom guns as mining tools.



>>>>>>> Ah, LRMs. That took me back to my BattleTech days.



Instead of going into the hive use their power and just turn the hive and everything under it into a giant smoking crater.[/quote]



>>>>>>> Fire!

Well I guess one other possibility is the whole megaverse in flames thing. Potentially the demon hordes coming out of calgary intersect with some of the newly established hives and then you get demon hordes hitting xiticix swarms. That conflict could potentially bleed both forces enough to let others finish both of them off.[/quote]


Nice idea. Could be a stories focal point to work around. Just dont get caught in the middle.

SittingBull wrote:

Mech-Viper Prime wrote:GBs would have the upper hand until they enter a hive, slow movers against fast movers in tight areas , fast movers win.
The boom guns could work but they have to be delivering contast shots, hit or miss over prolong time, but once it moves underground that sonic boom could work against the glitterboys.

If the sonic booms underground were more concentrated then that would also affect the bugs worse.

Or collapse tunnels, and trap themselves.