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SA2 mentions that people from one of the southern cities can select any OCC from Wormwood because it is a city rifted in from that location.

Am I right to conclude that pretty much the only OCC which would keep any of their supernatural abilities would potentially be the Monks?

The rest all appear to have powers based on symbiotes or communion.

I am not clear on whether or not a big chunk of Wormwood was rifted in to Rifts Earth along with this city. Would it have survived and been possible for the people to commune with? Or would a tiny chunk just be like shed skin and die off and decompose and Communion could never be done?

If it dies off, since they are not connected to Wormwood any more, that means all the symbiotes and crystals would die right?

This basically means that Apok's masks would decompose (unless they left them behind on Wormwood and didn't have them on hand at the time they were rifted away) and besides losing their communion powers, they would presumably also lose other things like their supernatural strength, immunity to horror factor and possession, etc.

Besides the Monks you'd also have Templars/Freelancers who would keep their advanced combat training... but yeah, must suck to be them.

I guess I'm wondering if that city remains a mini-Wormwood or if whatever chunks of resin/chitin or whatever it's made of just died and now they're just like the rest of the cities except for some weird useless OCCs.

The Demon Mask and a couple other symbiots are described as indestructible, while most other symbiots specify that they die after 1d6 hours. I'd say that you are otherwise correct in your estimation. The symbiots and other Wormwood specific powers are effectively lost. In my opinion, the choice to include Wormwood humans in the unrealized setting of the three-cities was to offer a human MDC character choice that would help balance a group in the higher-power setting. CJ's work, particularly the SA books, is recognized as a bit over the top, even for Rifts; which is why KS recommends that they be downgraded in the GMG to bring them more in line with the rest of the world.

It is one reason I don't care for wormwood. Almost nothing from it can be used elsewhere other than apok masks. There pretty much is no reason from another setting to go to wormwood and no reason to try to bring something from wormwood out of the setting.

I like the concept behind it but it just works terribly as anything other than a stand alone setting.

kaid wrote:It is one reason I don't care for wormwood. Almost nothing from it can be used elsewhere other than apok masks. There pretty much is no reason from another setting to go to wormwood and no reason to try to bring something from wormwood out of the setting.

I like the concept behind it but it just works terribly as anything other than a stand alone setting.

Its a great purgatory setting, players jump into a rift and end up there and now have to help the natives or run away or what not, its extermly alien to rifts earth players and can make a great side run while things unfold back on earth.

kaid wrote:It is one reason I don't care for wormwood. Almost nothing from it can be used elsewhere other than apok masks. There pretty much is no reason from another setting to go to wormwood and no reason to try to bring something from wormwood out of the setting.

I like the concept behind it but it just works terribly as anything other than a stand alone setting.

When you're playing in Wormwood, you use all your other books as source material for what you can bring into wormwood. And it works great.

Unfortunately, it's mostly a one-way street since there is very little in Wormwood that you can take away from Wormwood.

It's still the best setting that Palladium has ever published (although I highly recommend you turn it into an SDC setting if you plan to play it).

--flatline

flatline wrote:

kaid wrote:It is one reason I don't care for wormwood. Almost nothing from it can be used elsewhere other than apok masks. There pretty much is no reason from another setting to go to wormwood and no reason to try to bring something from wormwood out of the setting.

I like the concept behind it but it just works terribly as anything other than a stand alone setting.

When you're playing in Wormwood, you use all your other books as source material for what you can bring into wormwood. And it works great.

Unfortunately, it's mostly a one-way street since there is very little in Wormwood that you can take away from Wormwood.

It's still the best setting that Palladium has ever published (although I highly recommend you turn it into an SDC setting if you plan to play it).



--flatline

So Wormwood is more Rifts, then Rifts.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

flatline wrote:

kaid wrote:It is one reason I don't care for wormwood. Almost nothing from it can be used elsewhere other than apok masks. There pretty much is no reason from another setting to go to wormwood and no reason to try to bring something from wormwood out of the setting.

I like the concept behind it but it just works terribly as anything other than a stand alone setting.

When you're playing in Wormwood, you use all your other books as source material for what you can bring into wormwood. And it works great.

Unfortunately, it's mostly a one-way street since there is very little in Wormwood that you can take away from Wormwood.

It's still the best setting that Palladium has ever published (although I highly recommend you turn it into an SDC setting if you plan to play it).



--flatline

So Wormwood is more Rifts, then Rifts.

It sure is.

--flatline

Bill wrote:The Demon Mask and a couple other symbiots are described as indestructible, while most other symbiots specify that they die after 1d6 hours.

Yeah but the question remains: does being indestructible mean you can't die? I don't think so, because to me 'destroy' means like being damaged by an outside source, not that you can't age or starve or anything like that. Someone who drowns isn't being destroyed, for example. Destroy seems more synonymous with 'damage until you die' nor for death to be brought about in any fashion.

That and we do know that some indestructible things (like Rune Weapons) CAN be destroyed (Scathachs) so I think this should be one of those exceptions.

Basically: indestructibility is listed as one of the symbiotic powers of the Mask. But since we know that symbiotic powers are lost off of wormwood, I think this means that the mask loses it's damage resistance and can either be destroyed (an easy guess would be to give it 200MDC, like it lends the apok) or will otherwise die on its own with time.

Bill wrote:CJ's work, particularly the SA books, is recognized as a bit over the top, even for Rifts; which is why KS recommends that they be downgraded in the GMG to bring them more in line with the rest of the world.

I hate that idea, the world isn't supposed to be 'balanced', that's boring. There's a huge focus on North America and creating powerful entities on other continents mixes up Earth a bit better.

For all the whining about downgrading, Coalition War Campaign and Siege on Tolkeen hardly did that.

kaid wrote:Almost nothing from it can be used elsewhere other than apok masks.

I don't think those work off-planet, I think they die.

kaid wrote:There pretty much is no reason from another setting to go to wormwood and no reason to try to bring something from wormwood out of the setting.

Well, you could bring Resin weapons off-planet, I don't think that crumbles up, could be a cheap source of melee weapons. You could also export tough slaves. As for reasons to go there: there are a lot of useful crystals and stuff like that which you could use on Wormwood to cast powerful magic spells.

You paid for the game and can play it as you like. I'll stick with indestructible meaning that the Demon Mask retains its potency beyond Wormwood.

Bill wrote:You paid for the game and can play it as you like. I'll stick with indestructible meaning that the Demon Mask retains its potency beyond Wormwood.

As well you should, since that's the official stance regarding the mask.

Bill wrote:You paid for the game and can play it as you like. I'll stick with indestructible meaning that the Demon Mask retains its potency beyond Wormwood.

We can play games however we like, ignore whatever rules we like, kill off whatever NPCs we like. GMs can invent new rules, new skills, new races, etc. Very flexible. This is a discussion about how to interpret the canonical texts though.

Nightmask wrote:that's the official stance regarding the mask.

Where is this addressed, an FAQ?

Gryphon wrote:you need to somehow get back to Rifts Earth on a world where Shifters rate just a hair above criminals and traitors!!!

Still beats the Coalition States territories. Not to mention that's only if you hang out in Churchy towns. Hang out with the Unholy or in that neutral trading town Worldgate in the middle and you'd be fine.

Gryphon wrote:some of the crystals are pushing it a bit (Lesser Blank Spell Gen Crystal...two spells, twice each per 24 hours, you get to pick them when you have it programmed, and it never says it has a limitation on level, says specifically it can be temporal magic or other such esoterica, and YOU DON'T SPEND P.P.E. TO CAST!!! yup, that one is broke all over the place really!)

It's only broken if you allow crystals to survive off-planet, which the rules forbid. Things like this are exactly the reason why outsiders would be attracted to visiting Wormwood, even if the merchandise can't be exported.

Gryphon wrote:Can a Life Essence Crystal be used to animate a human shaped mass of Wormwood? It mentions a Golem can be used, and Wormwood material is already semi living anyhow, without being necessarily sentient in any way?

I don't think so, while Wormwood is alive, it lacks sentience, and the LEC is used to store pre-existing sentiences.

Gryphon wrote:Can the bloodstones, crystals, and similar be physically reshaped by a Stone Mage? Could larger crystals be turned into specific items such as weapons, circlets, bracelets or such, while smaller ones were turned into rings? Would an attempt to reshape them, but not separate or damage them, cause any negative effects?
.

Well if they are called crystals/stones and the Masters from Atlantis are able to mold them without restriction, I don't see why not. It'd be nice if there was limited things Stone Masters and Earth Warlocks could do on Wormwood since for the most part they're otherwise useless unless there happens to be a bunch of imported soil and rock like some cities have.

Gryphon wrote:
Honestly, most of them aren't too bad really, though some of the crystals are pushing it a bit (Lesser Blank Spell Gen Crystal...two spells, twice each per 24 hours, you get to pick them when you have it programmed, and it never says it has a limitation on level, says specifically it can be temporal magic or other such esoterica, and YOU DON'T SPEND P.P.E. TO CAST!!! yup, that one is broke all over the place really!)

I've played in games where we made great use of the wormwood spell stones and don't remember it being a potentially game breaking issue.

Could you please give some examples of how the wormwood spell stones can be used in a "broken" manner?

Thanks!

--flatline

"Broken" is a slang term basically just meaning very very powerful. It's a relative term, obviously many GMs could manage to incorporate strong things while still running the game. 'Unbalanced/Unbalancing' is probably closer, although balance and break are still relative terms.

Basically, those blank crystals are just... very very good. They put talismans and stuff to shame. They essentially can take PPE out of the equation. That's not a huge deal for low-level spells when you have a 'castings per day' limit. There were items like that made by Pygmy Shamans in Rifts Africa, and various Rune Weapons can also cast spells without PPE x times per day.

What makes these crystals unsettling is that you could plausibly cast a spell like Annihilate into them and launch several orbs of annihilation in rapid succession (only taking a single melee action to activate, in all probability) and be able to do so on a daily basis. Things like these are amazing for guerilla warfare and would pretty much necessitate that an enemy constantly pursue anyone with such a thing until they could acquire them.

The time issue I'm not clear on. The Lesser Spell Gem doesn't specify if the casting time is standard or not.

Spellcasting from items is actually rarely clear on this matter. I recall somewhere it mentioning that reading a scroll takes the same amount of time as casting the spell normally, but for the most part (even with things like Talismans) I don't think it's ever been clear on whether or not it costs a melee action to unleash magic, standard time, or maybe somewhere in between.

The only clear things I know are Cybermagic and Techno-Wizardry (and presumably SA2's Gizmoteer) all requiring a single melee action to do a spell by trigger-pulling.

Stuff like Rune Weapons though, spell crystals, etc. no idea.

I've always house ruled that so long as Wormwood symbiotes remain connected to their host (so long as the host is a Wormwood native), that the host is by extension something akin to an essence fragment of Wormwood, and thus the symbiotes will remain healthy so long as their host does. Should they be removed though, the symbiotes die in a few hours.

The Apok's Mask is a special exception. It is bound irrevocably to the Apok, and so long as he lives, the Mask remains. However, IMO the Apok will not willingly leave Wormwood. There is far too much on Wormwood to do for the Apok to abandon his duty and jaunt off to another dimension.

Gryphon wrote:I have a blank stone. I find a high level caster with access to spells I typically don't. (Perhaps he finds a blank stone and sets it up for his minions to use instead.) He casts two spells into the stone, of up to 15th level, though it doesn't specifically say that you can't put a spell of legend into it. (I would presume not really.)

Those two spells can each be cast twice per 24 hour period, by anyone, without P.P.E. expenditure at all. They can be Wormwood Communion spells, temporal magic, elemental magic, and while that might be the "limits" of what they can be, it seems more along the lines of a whatever you want type ting instead, and the two spells don't even have to coincide. Say a Water Elemental Spell like Tsunami and a Fire Elemental Spell like Volcano? Sure thing! An Invocation Spell of Resurrection and a Necromancy Spell of Summon Maggot! Have at it!

And like I said, no one pays P.P.E. to do this. So a given blank gem could have the permanent version of Enchant Weapon (Minor) and Talisman cast into it, and twice per day could create a permanent enchanted weapon and a talisman...at no cost! (Not even the permanent loss of 2D4 P.P.E. that typically goes along with creating a permanent magical weapon...why is there a permanent P.P.E. cost for a spell that basically creates a slightly damage resistant weapon that only deal double its SDC damage as MDC instead? This must be a hold over form the fantasy setting, because the magic as industry setup of Rifts doesn't really jib with this idea.)

Nightbane apparently agreed with you on that point, as it's Enchant Weapon spell that creates permanently empowered magic weapons is far cheaper in PPE cost, works on modern weapons, and carries no permanent loss of PPE from the caster.

Gryphon wrote:I have a blank stone. I find a high level caster with access to spells I typically don't. (Perhaps he finds a blank stone and sets it up for his minions to use instead.) He casts two spells into the stone, of up to 15th level, though it doesn't specifically say that you can't put a spell of legend into it. (I would presume not really.)

Those two spells can each be cast twice per 24 hour period, by anyone, without P.P.E. expenditure at all. They can be Wormwood Communion spells, temporal magic, elemental magic, and while that might be the "limits" of what they can be, it seems more along the lines of a whatever you want type ting instead, and the two spells don't even have to coincide. Say a Water Elemental Spell like Tsunami and a Fire Elemental Spell like Volcano? Sure thing! An Invocation Spell of Resurrection and a Necromancy Spell of Summon Maggot! Have at it!

And like I said, no one pays P.P.E. to do this. So a given blank gem could have the permanent version of Enchant Weapon (Minor) and Talisman cast into it, and twice per day could create a permanent enchanted weapon and a talisman...at no cost! (Not even the permanent loss of 2D4 P.P.E. that typically goes along with creating a permanent magical weapon...why is there a permanent P.P.E. cost for a spell that basically creates a slightly damage resistant weapon that only deal double its SDC damage as MDC instead? This must be a hold over form the fantasy setting, because the magic as industry setup of Rifts doesn't really jib with this idea.)

Never mind the Talisman spell, just reread it, and this won't work really. But the idea is similar. This is really, really uber in nature. The biggest limitations are that a given spell might not be available (such as anything over level 6 or so, depending.) But it is still really scary to think about it!

I thought this was, in fact, exactly what these things were intended for. Tor's example of using Annihilation is right there at my threshold were I'd pause and think about it as a GM, but nothing else seems particularly abusive. For instance, Enchant Weapon isn't all that big a deal in a setting where resin weapons are the norm and already do MD (although exporting enchanted weapons for profit is certainly an option). The mass production of Talismans was already a regular part of most of our campaigns, so an extra 1 or 2 Talismans per day for free wouldn't have made much of a difference. Resurrection, while cool, still requires someone to survive to do the resurrection and a body to be resurrected.

Annihilation is great for ambushes where you can reasonably wipe out the targets before they can report you, but once word gets out, you become a priority target. This is especially bad in large engagements where once you've used Annihilation, there are still enemies to deal with and now you've just painted a big target on yourself. But from a tactical perspective, having the ability to break up enemy lines at the beginning of the encounter is an awesome advantage, so these things would definitely be worth having.

--flatline

Gryphon wrote:I am not indicating it is stupid powerful...though maybe I should be really. Mostly I am questioning that it is listed as a lesser stone for one thing, and has no level limits built in for another. This really, really needed a spell cap at like 8-10th level.

Though admittedly, creating an antimatter bowling ball twice per day has its own appeal I suppose.

Though...is there any reason I couldn't just cast the same spell into it twice, and instead of 2/day its does 4/day instead?

I don't know if there is a canon answer to that.

As much as I love Wormwood the setting, just about everything in that book is about 20% underspecified which means you have to have house rules for just about everything in order to play the setting. Someone wrote a wormwood sourcebook that addresses a great many of the gaps, but it seems unlikely that it'll ever become canon.

--flatline

Gryphon wrote:I am not indicating it is stupid powerful...though maybe I should be really. Mostly I am questioning that it is listed as a lesser stone for one thing, and has no level limits built in for another. This really, really needed a spell cap at like 8-10th level.

Though admittedly, creating an antimatter bowling ball twice per day has its own appeal I suppose.

Though...is there any reason I couldn't just cast the same spell into it twice, and instead of 2/day its does 4/day instead?

The lesser spell gem can have two spells programed into it, and then casts two spells per day. either one of each, or one twice. Thus there is no reason to program it with the same spell twice.

Also the book Firetown and the Tolkeen crisis has the Ragnarokrok squad have several Wormwood items, that have been enchanted to survive off the planet (they need 50ppe per day pumped in them) It also has a few notes on an Apok off of Wormwood that could be looked at for information.

Gryphon wrote:That's very interesting chief! It's more or less a canon answer to whether you can have Wormwood items on Rifts Earth. I would still want a "real" response from a PB rep with clout, but for the most part, that really does seem to cover it, doesn't it?

And I realize you don't have to case the spell in twice to get the effect twice. What I am asking is can you program a sort of exclusive stone instead, one that only does one spell four times per day?

I am inclined to say that I would likely allow such a thing, but that doing so isn't as efficient, and that you end up with a stone that does one effect three times per day instead.

The more I read up on the Wormwood symbiotes, the more I get:
A) a SERIOUS case of the willies! (Worms!? Oh, god, the inhumanity!!!)
and
B) seriously impressed with teh various stars, stones, and to a degree the symbiotes.

Still...mostly ick!

While there is much about the setting I like (even if it is a bit too Dragonlance level bleak, even Dark Suns was more upbeat) it definitely has a major ick factor for me as well. I wouldn't want to be there without either endless access to Sustain spells or be a character that didn't require food, water, or air to survive just to not have to deal with the ick factor just for food.

Gryphon wrote:This stuff is not only an MDC material made "on the cheap", and i though it also allowed someone to deal MDC without being supernaturally strong, but I can't seem to find that entry now, so I might be wrong. If so...how does a planet of MDC beings harm each other without a source of metal? More than that, even were they to have metal, a normal MDC sword in the hands of someone with a normal strength can't damage an MDC structure...am I missing something here guys?!

No, you're dead on. This is one of the areas of the setting that wasn't handled well in the books, but everybody I know has house ruled that resin weapons do MD damage even if the wielder has normal strength.

This is also one of the reasons that I wish they had made wormwood an SDC setting.

--flatline

Gryphon wrote:That's very interesting chief! It's more or less a canon answer to whether you can have Wormwood items on Rifts Earth. I would still want a "real" response from a PB rep with clout, but for the most part, that really does seem to cover it, doesn't it?

And I realize you don't have to case the spell in twice to get the effect twice. What I am asking is can you program a sort of exclusive stone instead, one that only does one spell four times per day?

I am inclined to say that I would likely allow such a thing, but that doing so isn't as efficient, and that you end up with a stone that does one effect three times per day instead.

The more I read up on the Wormwood symbiotes, the more I get:
A) a SERIOUS case of the willies! (Worms!? Oh, god, the inhumanity!!!)
and
B) seriously impressed with teh various stars, stones, and to a degree the symbiotes.

Still...mostly ick!

No, the spellstone only has two charges TOTAL per day, not two charges for each spell. So if you have it with spell A and spell B, you can cast AA, AB, or BB, you cant cast AABB.

Gryphon wrote:It says "Each spell can be cast twice per 24 hours." Not that the gem can cast two spells per 24 hours.

And that makes sense compared to the rest. For example, the Shadow Crystal right above is says that "It can cast each of the following spell two times per 24 hours without P.P.E. cost to the user:" and then goes on to list three spells.

Also...why is Invisibility (Self) listed under the Spell Gem of Dimensions, and not under the Spell Gem of Illusion right underneath it?! I am not even sure Wisps of Confusion (sounds like enchantment/charm magic to me) should be in the Illusion Gem, and I bet you could dig up a "real" dimensional shifting spell of some minor sort the same level of Invisibility (Self)!

That is totally my bad. I was confusing the Lesser Spell Gem (two spells total) and the Spell Gem Blank (each spell twice). And there is no reason to assume that you CAN'T put the same spell in twice for four castings since there is nothing to prohibit it, it should be assumed to be legal is how I would read it. You will of course need a caster to load the gem for you, but once thats done have at it.

My old GM let a player be an Apok on Rifts Earth way back in the day. I've never read that book so I had no clue that the player wasn't really supposed to leave wormwood (second campaign I ever played in).
As far as I could tell the Apok wasn't penalized in anyway but he could have been, like I said never heard of an Apok at that point since it was only my second campaign ever. First one I played a Plains Borg, don't even remember what I played in the game with the Apok. I just remember how cool the GM made the mask sound, even when he took it off it wasn't really off. He said it molded to his hand and then he transferred it to his hip and it became a part of him there.

reading through the two books, it just says the city rifted in. it doesn't say anything beyond that.

so basically i see three options here:
1) the city brought over was one of the ones made of stone and resin and the locals just needed to adapt to life without a living planet.
2) a chunk of wormwood was brought over, but that piece 'died' in the process and is now just inert/dead matter.
3) a chunk of wormwood was brought over, and it now lives as a fragment/cutting of the living planet.

in the first two cases, all the rules about wormwood symbiots and magic taken off wormwood apply. in the last, the symbiots would function in the area of that chunk, and perhaps in a narrow region around it, but probably wouldn't function anywhere else.

Wormwood p.57 wrote:Although others may wear ornamental masks made to resemble a monster or demon, only the apok wears the demon masks of Wormwood, a living symbiotic organism created by the living planet and molded by the repentant warrior.

Because it is a symbiote. It's also an indestructible one though.

Mercdog wrote:I've always house ruled that so long as Wormwood symbiotes remain connected to their host (so long as the host is a Wormwood native), that the host is by extension something akin to an essence fragment of Wormwood, and thus the symbiotes will remain healthy so long as their host does. Should they be removed though, the symbiotes die in a few hours.

The Apok's Mask is a special exception. It is bound irrevocably to the Apok, and so long as he lives, the Mask remains. However, IMO the Apok will not willingly leave Wormwood. There is far too much on Wormwood to do for the Apok to abandon his duty and jaunt off to another dimension.

While I do like giving a unique ability to Wormwood natives, I love even more the expansions made to the Symbiotic Warrior in the Rifter.

One of those spells includes a spell the Warrior can cast on a symbiote bound to him to allow him to survive off-planet.

As such, I think we should give some 'fragment of Wormwood' abilities to Wormwood natives, but only so far as them allowing symbiotes to survive longer (perhaps weeks or months instead of hours or days) rather than indefinitely, which I think should be a realm of specialty exclusive to symbiotic warriors. Although giving Wormspeakers an advanced ability (not as good as the SW, but better than other natives) to sustain symbiotes would also be good.

I don't like the idea of Apok masks being immortal simply because of the Apok being alive. That would imply some kinda distance-unlimited interdimensional link between the Apok and Mask. Apoks are already Wormwood's Mary Sue so they don't need anything on that level.

At most I'd say that Apoks should be able to sustain their mask double the time a Wormspeaker can sustain their worms (and there should be a time limit) but no longer than that. Separate from the Apok, perhaps the mask lasts a bit longer (say 2 to 10 times the duration of other symbiotes before disintegrating) but it should still rapidly die when not in contact with them.

Since that's so horrible for Apoks, you could do some ruling like being able to make a replacement mask by stepping into another Life Force Cauldron Vat or whatever.

Gryphon wrote:no one pays P.P.E. to do this. So a given blank gem could have the permanent version of Enchant Weapon (Minor) and Talisman cast into it, and twice per day could create a permanent enchanted weapon and a talisman...at no cost! (Not even the permanent loss of 2D4 P.P.E. that typically goes along with creating a permanent magical weapon...

I'm pretty sure that it's implied (if not outright stated) that you do have to pay full PPE cost (including permanent PPE costs) when initially casting the spell into the spell gem to imprint it.

That is a good point about permanent costs though. Although... I think it's implied you can't imprint a ritual onto the gem, so no mass creation of Golems or anything like that. The weapon ritual also has a limit of 'once per 3 months' which we should assume applies to the gem as much as it would a spell caster. That said: bypassing the permanent PPE cost is pretty useful (and 4 magic weapons a year can add up and be a boon to the forces of light... if only they were better) and I can't see anything forbidding that (ab)use of the spell crystal. If only Kevin had made the 'create weapon' spell a ritual-only thing, then we wouldn't have that problem. TBH I think anything involving permanent PPE cost (such as Close Rift) should be ritual-only.

flatline wrote:Tor's example of using Annihilation is right there at my threshold were I'd pause and think about it as a GM, but nothing else seems particularly abusive.

The ability to do potentially-instant high-level spells at no subsequent PPE cost eclipses that of Talismans (especially since those are limited to lower-level spells) and of Scrolls. Annihilate is the most obvious, but being able to casually throw out investment-free Dimensional Portals is also pretty huge.

Gryphon wrote:I am not indicating it is stupid powerful...though maybe I should be really. Mostly I am questioning that it is listed as a lesser stone for one thing, and has no level limits built in for another. This really, really needed a spell cap at like 8-10th level.

Though admittedly, creating an antimatter bowling ball twice per day has its own appeal I suppose.

Though...is there any reason I couldn't just cast the same spell into it twice, and instead of 2/day its does 4/day instead?

Considering that the pre-encoded version of the spell gem blanks only include level 1 to 2 spells, I agree that a similar level limit would be useful.

Making the level limit for Greater Gems 1-6 (similar to Talismans) would also work. Twice per day auto-recharge versus Thrice manual-recharge is similar, perhaps better, but then it's easier to make Talismans (which work everywhere) than to find a crystal (which only works on Wormwood).

Or maybe something like 1-5 lesser 1-10 greater, just because it really deserves to be stronger.

eliakon wrote:the book Firetown and the Tolkeen crisis has the Ragnarokrok squad have several Wormwood items, that have been enchanted to survive off the planet (they need 50ppe per day pumped in them) It also has a few notes on an Apok off of Wormwood that could be looked at for information.

Haven't heard of this, is it part of the Siege on Tolkeen sourcebooks?

notafraid2die wrote:I don't see why everyone refers to the Apok's mask as a symbiote. I thought it was a creation of magic and the Apok's reflection of his own past evils.

It's both. "only the apok wears the demon masks of Wormwood, a living symbiotic organism created by the living planet and molded by the repentant warrior"

Bill wrote:it is a symbiote. It's also an indestructible one though.

There is AFAIK only one mention of it being indestructible, which is in a numbered list, number 6.

This numbered list also includes things such as a bonus to MDC, enhanced healing, attacks, initiative, damage multipler, horror factor.

Now, either the abilities in this numbered list are ALWAYS in effect, or else they are powers from the symbiote only applicable when wearing the mask. This is indicated by the description ("uses the symbiote", "empowered by the Demon Mask", "he will have the powers of the apok, (and of the mask, whenever it is worn)", "Horror Factor: 16 when wearing the mask" under The Confessor)

We clearly know two things:
1. indestructibility is one of the symbiote's powers
2. symbiotes immediately lose their powers when off of Wormwood.

Now I am willing to be generous and assume that the mask remains indestructible while removed (though this is not inherently supported, one could infer it is ONLY indestructible while worn by the Apok) but it is definitely NOT indestructible (whether worn or removed) off-planet because symbiotes only have their powers (and indestructibility is numbered among them) while on Wormwood itself.

The problem is that while we know how hard it is to destroy symbiotes (they're given MDC, they seem to remain MDC rather than revert to SDC off-planet, but die in hours) we don't know how much MDC the mask has. That's why the easy guess is 200, off planet, which is generous enough.

Also if the mask (or Apok) do go off-planet even briefly, even after they return to Wormwood it takes whole day to get them back.

I would arguably even apply this to an Apok who steps into a Dimensional Room or if the Unholy used the power Black Abyss to separate an Apok from Wormwood by putting them in another dimension. After being returned from such prisons, their masks should for a day, be destroyable.

Again, you paid for the book and can interpret it how you like. I prefer to think that the planet has empowered the apoks to seek their redemption (and the destruction of Wormwood's enemies) no matter where it may require them to go. I wouldn't want to undermine the story possibilities by restricting the character's movement.

glitterboy2098 wrote:reading through the two books, it just says the city rifted in. it doesn't say anything beyond that.

so basically i see three options here:
1) the city brought over was one of the ones made of stone and resin and the locals just needed to adapt to life without a living planet.
2) a chunk of wormwood was brought over, but that piece 'died' in the process and is now just inert/dead matter.
3) a chunk of wormwood was brought over, and it now lives as a fragment/cutting of the living planet.

in the first two cases, all the rules about wormwood symbiots and magic taken off wormwood apply. in the last, the symbiots would function in the area of that chunk, and perhaps in a narrow region around it, but probably wouldn't function anywhere else.

Unless they've changed the text they were pretty clear from what I read that the rifted chunk of Wormwood (which would mean presumably that Wormwood now has a large chunk of normal non-Wormwood landscape) is still alive and functional and symbiotes still work within its area and I think something like 5 miles outside its borders due to its influence.

My copy of SA2 does not include any of that. It only indicates that one of the three cities rifted into the area was from Wormwood. If there is more cannon information on the Southern Alliance I would love to read it.

notafraid2die wrote:I like Tor's idea on making the mask destructible outside of Wormwood. I think I'm stealing it.

It's not my idea, it's in the rules All I'm proposing is how much MDC to give it since indestructible items generally are not given MDC for the odd occasions when their indestructibility is removed. That and having it degrade just a bit slower due to its power, and slower still when in contact with it's owner.

Bill wrote:can interpret it how you like.

This has nothing to do with preferences or interpretation, it's literally in the rules. Rules can be changed by GMs, and that's fine, but it goes outside canon. The expansion to the Symbiotic Warrior in the Rifter is also non-canon, but I love it and think it's great if people use it. An Apok could switch their OCC to Symbiotic Warrior to keep their mask alive, for example.

Also since you can invent pretty much any spell in TTGD, we could plausibly create a spell that would allow symbiotes to survive outside Wormwood without dying. I'm not sure what to base it on at the moment (sustain?) but I could see someone like Salome potentially inventing this.

After all, we know Salome lives in an interdimensional lair (according to the comic) presumably NOT on Wormwood, yet she wears a couple symbiotes who seemed to have been fine. So you could probably get this spell from her. Just have Lazarus take her out to dinner, and take him along on your adventures after he's wheedled it out of her.

Bill wrote:I prefer to think that the planet has empowered the apoks to seek their redemption (and the destruction of Wormwood's enemies) no matter where it may require them to go. I wouldn't want to undermine the story possibilities by restricting the character's movement.

I'm sure Wormwood would love to do cool things like that (assuming it has that much sentience, which we're not clear on) but it simply goes beyond the planet's known abilities. Nxla would probably love to remove his harvesters' vulnerability to psychics, but he hasn't been able to yet, thus why they have that vulnerability.

Nightmask wrote:they were pretty clear from what I read that the rifted chunk of Wormwood

Actually it just mentions a city and inhabitants, nothing about the planet itself. Kind of left for guessing. If a chunk of the land was rifted in, I could see it surviving a little while (maybe longer than the mere hours small symbiotes do) but I'm not sure it would survive indefinitely like the planet seems to (until otherwise indicated). The slow dying of living land rifted into South America and how to keep it alive (perhaps open a permanent Rift to Wormwood which it can reach across via stairs/walls to re-connect with the main body?) could be a fun plot point though.

Actually, this makes me wonder: IS there anything preventing Wormwood from expanding to other planets via using permanent Communion spells to create walls that pass through dimensional portals? Heck, you could eventually create a space bridge if you cast walls/stairs often enough. I'd probably require some architecture rolls after a while (it's MDC so it'd bear more weight under bad design wood, but even that would have limits if you were just creating a mile-high stairwell to heaven)

Nightmask wrote:(which would mean presumably that Wormwood now has a large chunk of normal non-Wormwood landscape)

Not really, stuff being rifted in doesn't mean something was rifted out to make room for it. That can be the case, but transfers are, unless otherwise indicated, usually one-sided.

Nightmask wrote:is still alive and functional and symbiotes still work within its area and I think something like 5 miles outside its borders due to its influence.

Not sure where you read this. Symbiotes and border radiuses don't ring a bell. Maybe this was some kind of netbook or something in a Rifter I don't have?

Bill wrote:If there is more cannon information on the Southern Alliance I would love to read it.

Same, I get the sense at times Kev wants to avoid anything that CJ made and pretend it doesn't exist (other than making suggestions to nerf it) but a whole world book on the Southern Alliance and other similarly unexplored cities would actually be awesome. It could work, we have had World Books on smaller areas (Federation of Magic basically covered 3 major cities, Psyscape was based around 1, Xiticix was just about bugs and stalkers, Lone Star was about 1 state, etc)

Bill wrote:My copy of SA2 does not include any of that. It only indicates that one of the three cities rifted into the area was from Wormwood. If there is more cannon information on the Southern Alliance I would love to read it.

same here. all it says is that a city was rifted in from wormwood. and later in a GM note that classes from wormwood could be an option for characters from the region.
nothing further is given.

and suggesting wormwood OCC's doesn'r mean anything in itself, since most of them are not reliant on the living planet for their main focus and would just make an interesting alternative to typical rifts OCC's. and given the southern Alliance has been around for hundreds of years (the cities rifted in during the cataclysm), it wouldn't be too hard to replace the 'communion with wormwood' powers of classes liek the priest of light, monk, etc, with more conventional magic. especially since the third city in the alliance was a fortress city of "super powerful wizards". so pretty much the only classes you couldn't use in a "dead wormwood' scenario is the wormspeaker and symbiotic warrior.


i suspect that there is a lot of house rule material out there that people have forgotten is not actually in the books.

Possibly, didn't even think of the super-magical city helping out the Wormwood city. It doesn't mention any active Rifts connecting the WW city to WW but one or two might exist solely to keep the link open and the land alive by connecting it to the motherland. Would be an awesome top secret thing.

Also this is making me think of the Zerg and their Creep from Starcraft. Just seeping in through portals... covering the normal terrain... ever expanding...

They used the ritual from Tolkeen, and need to feed their 'Bit 'o Wormwood' 50PPE a day

eliakon wrote:They used the ritual from Tolkeen, and need to feed their 'Bit 'o Wormwood' 50PPE a day

Yeah, you said "Firetown and the Tolkeen crisis has the Ragnarokrok squad". Sounds familiar, I can check through all the books, was just wondering which of the six had it.

notafraid2die wrote:I believe Wormwood makes mention of a few structures that were built (not grown), by unknown or ancient sources. Perhaps the city that was rifted to SA is one of those things. That being the case, it would just be the city that got rifted and not a chunk of the planet.

There is a 'Stone City' or something along those lines which is built out of stone rifted in from other dimensions, probably from places like Worldgate. It has the advantage of being immune to communion spells like 'create an opening' though it would create a unique opportunity for earth warlocks.

There's another town where they've rifted in a lot of dirt to grow produce from (carrots and potatoes I imagine) to supplement the diet of worms/cabbage fibers.

In both cases these sit on top of the planet, so even if a city like this were rifted to Rifts Earth, it might still bring along some of the living planet underneath.

Tor wrote:

eliakon wrote:They used the ritual from Tolkeen, and need to feed their 'Bit 'o Wormwood' 50PPE a day

Yeah, you said "Firetown and the Tolkeen crisis has the Ragnarokrok squad". Sounds familiar, I can check through all the books, was just wondering which of the six had it.

It isn't part of the Coalition Wars, it is an Adventure Sourcebook. It also costs 50 PPE per week iirc, not per day.

Tor wrote:Possibly, didn't even think of the super-magical city helping out the Wormwood city. It doesn't mention any active Rifts connecting the WW city to WW but one or two might exist solely to keep the link open and the land alive by connecting it to the motherland. Would be an awesome top secret thing.

Also this is making me think of the Zerg and their Creep from Starcraft. Just seeping in through portals... covering the normal terrain... ever expanding...

As I recall, it does say that all three cities are located at nexus points and within 100 miles of each other. They very well could be connected via ley lines. And it's not as if the folks from Wormwood need help keeping a rift open. Shifter and the temporal classes are listed as other common classes for the setting. I'm inclined to think an entire city might include a few casters capable of performing Open Rift.

Yeah, especially now with all Shifters having their 'rift home' ability...

Although I'm not entirely clear on how that would work in that case. Initially after the disaster when Wormwoodians came here, would 'rift home' take them back to their home planet (Wormwood) or would it take them back to their home city, which is now on Rifts earth?

Obviously if this city has been around a couple centuries it would only take new people born here back to Rifts Earth, but initially as an emergency measure to keep it open I mean...

Another thing to wonder about: if it's being born on Wormwood that makes you into an MDC being, if this city were no longer alive, while the initially rifted inhabitants would be MDC, would their descendants? If the lands underneath the Rifted-in city from Wormwood were dead then shouldn't their kids eventually revert to being born SDC and being able to get psionics, like any other normal human?

How GMs explain the inhabitants of the city (MDC or SDC) would give insight into whether or not some life remains in the bowels. If MDC continues, some part of it must be alive (either connected to the main Wormwood, or splintered off as a smaller baby Wormwood) and if it doesn't, it must've died.

Both are doable since the description doesn't clarify either way.

Being born on Wormwood doesn't make a person a megadamage creature. Being descended from generations of people born in a high PPE environment does. This concept is kind of carried over into the psistalker and neohuman classes too. I don't think they'd default back to SDC creatures without spending a few generations in a low PPE environment. Additionally, SA2 insinuates that they're not actually human; so the lack of psionic abilities may be related to that.

"natives of Wormwood are mega-damage creatures" says nothing about offspring of Natives born off-planet.

"Human visitors to Wormwood from other dimensions remain SDC .. their offspring will be mega-damage .. if they have lived on the planet for years .. or their mate is a native"

The 'years' part is vague and not all to helpful though. Bypassed if procreating with native in which case no resident minimum periods for immigrants to get MDC kids.

The issue of offsprings of natives born off-planet isn't addressed, but if you're not born on Wormwood, you're not a native, so technically no. I think it'd be fine for GMs to bend rules though. If you were born to a pair of Wormwood natives in Phase World, drank your mother's milk, and were returned to Wormwood in the first year, I think you'd safely end up MDC by adulthood.

Psi-Stalkers and Neo-Humans are different, those are temporary abilities, much like a Chaos Wizard in Rise of Magic, passive MDC everywhere's totally diff. SA2 doesn't so much say Neos aren't human, just that they have more DNA in common with the other mutant animals than they do with humans. But then, we know they probably put human DNA in those animals too so it could have a reverse meaning...

PPE environment is not the reason why Wormwood natives are MDC though. The PPE is not higher there. Anything close to ley lines are hidden underground, away from the populace. Rifts Earth has more PPE floating around to affect people. The reason is Wormwood itself

My guess is that the chunk of Wormwood that got rifted in has basically budded into a micro-Wormwood organism. Anything on it's surface (and maybe even within an indeterminate radius from it) counts as being on the planet Wormwood.

That's a possibility, but not established. We don't know if any actual parts of wormwood were rifted in, and whether or not pieces of wormwood can be cut off and survive in other dimensions.

If this were possible, then players should be capable of cutting up a piece of wall or stair and 'planting' the piece of wormwood on other dimensions and then standing on it and growing it...

I am not utterly opposed to this idea considering how much PPE it takes to make a wall segment permanent, this wuoldn't happen at a very fast rate.

Tor wrote:That's a possibility, but not established. We don't know if any actual parts of wormwood were rifted in, and whether or not pieces of wormwood can be cut off and survive in other dimensions.

If this were possible, then players should be capable of cutting up a piece of wall or stair and 'planting' the piece of wormwood on other dimensions and then standing on it and growing it...

I am not utterly opposed to this idea considering how much PPE it takes to make a wall segment permanent, this wuoldn't happen at a very fast rate.

Well yes we know a part of Wormwood was rifted in, that's explicitly noted in the text regarding that trio of cities. Rechecking I believe it's a FAQ answer that states that the symbiotes continue living in the city and within five miles of it due to it being a small (and obviously still living) part of Wormwood.

This could probably qualify for one of the briefest city descriptions in Rifts. Here is all we know:

"three entire cities were rifted into the area!"
"it appears that entire continental segments were interchanged with similar areas in other worlds"
"inhabitants of the third city were human-looking, but came from the strange world of Wormwood"

The strongest indication that pieces of the living planet were rifted in is the 'continental segments' phrase, but I'm not sure if that qualifies as explicit. Resin mountains could also qualify as continental segments, after all. Would be interested in reading this FAQ answer. I'm all for the idea of a mini-Wormwood existing on Rifts and would embrace that FAQ.

I just came to a somewhat horrifying realization about my previous hypothesis:

If the piece of Wormwood in the Southern Federation is budded off, then it is possibly growing. Sinking tendrils into the earth to feed off Geothermal energy and devouring any soil and rock in the way of it's expansion (or for sustenance). What if that was how Wormwood was first grown? Whoever created it, it's unlikely they did it all from scratch. While there's little doubt that this infant Wormwood organism on Rifts Earth is/will be every bit as helpful and benevolent as it's parent organism, there is still the danger of it eating the planet as part of its life cycle.

Hopefully, someone will figure out the problem and find a way to either get it to stop or maybe move it before it requires or causes an Atlantis-scale disaster to get rid of.

Why is it unlikely that Wormwood was created from scratch? There are communion spells which can create permanent additions to the planet through permanent PPE expenditure. There's no reason why the whole planet couldn't have just been created from raw PPE, once you had a small seed to add to over time.

There's no established basis that Wormwood feeds off soil and rock. If it did, you'd think it would have caused problems for the kingdoms which have imported these things and laid them on top of Wormwood.

Rather than Geothermal energy, if it fed off anything I'd say it would be ley lines. Wormwood has ley line energy in deep caves, so possibly it grows overtop of ley lines, blocking them from the surface creates and feeding on them exclusively.

Heck who is to say it wasn't created out of whole cloth all at once? There is a primal deific power to create dimensions....sounds like the tool for the job there.....

eliakon wrote:Heck who is to say it wasn't created out of whole cloth all at once? There is a primal deific power to create dimensions....sounds like the tool for the job there.....

That's one of those 'up to the GM' things, they've kept the creator(s) of Wormwood intentionally vague, but it's unlikely that the chunk that's on Rifts Earth is growing and spreading otherwise we'd have seen mention of it already so it seems to remain self-contained. Likely the conditions of a normal planet don't provide for it to do so (plus if it could grow then logically Wormwood would have continued to expand and grow larger over time but instead its size remains static).

Nightmask wrote:

eliakon wrote:Heck who is to say it wasn't created out of whole cloth all at once? There is a primal deific power to create dimensions....sounds like the tool for the job there.....

That's one of those 'up to the GM' things, they've kept the creator(s) of Wormwood intentionally vague, but it's unlikely that the chunk that's on Rifts Earth is growing and spreading otherwise we'd have seen mention of it already so it seems to remain self-contained. Likely the conditions of a normal planet don't provide for it to do so (plus if it could grow then logically Wormwood would have continued to expand and grow larger over time but instead its size remains static).

devils advocate:
assuming that the world of wormwood isn't just a shell of living matter over a core of regular planet. we don't know what the inside of wormwood is like, we are only given speculation and assumptions.

if wormwood had a regular planet as its core, it could live by consuming the planet's matter to feed it;s physical growth, and the planet's ley lines to give itself energy.
but the growth would likely be very slow, so might not appear to be growth at all unless you measured it over thousands of years. (rather like how continents are moving due ot plate tectonics, but so slowly they don't seem to move at all)

eliakon wrote:There is a primal deific power to create dimensions....sounds like the tool for the job there.....

Not sure what you mean by 'primal'. The only subcategory for deific powers I'm aware of is the "prototypical" list which most deities have access to (the Lords of Magic in FoM only have a few of them, as would new Deevil Lords).

The ability to create new dimensions appears to be exclusive to Algor and Sahtalus.

Tor wrote:

eliakon wrote:There is a primal deific power to create dimensions....sounds like the tool for the job there.....

Not sure what you mean by 'primal'. The only subcategory for deific powers I'm aware of is the "prototypical" list which most deities have access to (the Lords of Magic in FoM only have a few of them, as would new Deevil Lords).

The ability to create new dimensions appears to be exclusive to Algor and Sahtalus.

Okay, my bad Prototypical power. And just because only two examples have it doesnt mean that they are the ONLY ones in the whole wide megaverse that have it, just that in the small sample set we have so far that only one deity and one artifact have it.....hrm not a bad ratio really.....