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Well, if the spell was created during/for the PF setting then I can imagine see it being useful for large scale conflicts where troops tend to be on foot and closely massed on the battlefield. The whole 'forever trapping your life essence' thing is what really makes this spell Legendary in my eyes. How many enemy soldiers could you irrevocably disappear with a few well placed Carpet of Adhesion spells and then drop this wall on everyone trapped? That combo could be ripe for abuse if this spell wasn't so costly to cast.
It may not work well in an enormous valley, but consider a castle siege. It could be very effective cast in the courtyard if the outer walls are breached, but not yet the inner walls, especially if you can trap everyone inside the area. In any terrain, cast it on top of the enemy and combine it with Summon Fog so that those inside don't even know which direction to go to get out of the wall.
This would be utterly devastating to cast on an enemy vessel during ship-to-ship combat on the open seas (or in space!).

That said, I agree that the energy cost is excessive and there are a whole lot of more efficient ways to spend 6000 P.P.E.

Well, think of it this way: the best wall is one no one would assult in the first place.

and as you just discribed: here's a wall no one in their right mind would ever assult in the first place.

So while I agree that at first it dosn't seem like it does much, I have to say it does seem to accmoplish the goal of a wall spell--prevent anyone from getting behind it. As you just laid laid out--if no one is gonna attack through it for the duration, then it is exactly what a wall spell should be. I mean, a wall is not a weapon. it's something to hide behind. and this is something you can hide behind. the horror factor is secondary. it's not a 6000 PPE way to scare people with a HF of 18. it's a 6000 PPE way designed to stop an army of millions in it's tracks. and that's exactly what it does. no army would march through this because you won't get out before you die.

however, your quite right that in and of itself, a wall is useless. but you have to consider the context of it's creation for what it's purpose is. Lictalon lead one of the three armies of light that fought aginst the endless hoards of the old one's minion races. having a giant wall to stop an enemies advance, or to cut off their escape, is an absolutely fantastic thing if you happen to have an ARMY to use.

You are right, it's completely worthless for the average adventurer. that dosn't mean the spell itself is worthless, only that the situations that you could use it reasonably efficently are so rare most gamers will never play it.

But some games do get to the point where the player characters command vast armies, so hey, someone may use it yet.

I think the main thing is for 6000 PPE you'd expect the spell to actually DO something to the enemy, but your right in that the wall dosn't inherently harm the enemy. if you don't already have an army or some other big BIG nasty lined up to attack the enemy, then yes, it's a massive waste of PPE. but if you DO have that army, there's nothing better for keeping hundreds of thousands of troops hemmed in while you slaughter them.

Nekira's got this.

Since Rifts started, in all my groups and different campaigns, not one spell of legend has been cast; they are spells of legend and THEN look at the ppe cost.

Granted I now see this spell in a more favor light when combined with fog, carpet of adhesion, or even increase weight.

Little Snuzzles wrote:This business about someone getting trapped inside wall is silly because nobody in their right mind is going to attempt such a thing in the first place: Imagine you're standing in a wide valley and someone on the other side casts a spell that causes a gigantic wall of crimson flames to appear before you. As you watch, murky shapes of men and creatures appear and vanish repeatedly inside the wall. At this point, I doubt you will be asking yourself, "Hmm, should I attempt to walk through this strange and obviously powerful magical wall of flames with demonic shapes in it?"

Um... you do realize it's a defensive spell, right? As in: yeah, people aren't going to enter it randomly, unless they have a strong reason for wanting to get to something on the other side of it. Like perhaps some enemies, treasure, hostages, etc.

There may not be alternative options to going around it. Like the wall may be case to block off a large corridor of valley. Walking through the wall may be the only way. They may figure (right or wrong) that if they pass through quickly enough, they can bear the flames and terror and get through to their objective.

Little Snuzzles wrote:And even if you do enter it (perhaps out of spite?), the second you get hit with up to 36 hit points (or up to 120 MD) of damage, the logical part of your mind is going to tell you to get the hell out of there. There is no reason anybody would choose to voluntarily stay inside the wall.

Most people are going to want to either return where they came from, or run straight through to the other side as fast as possible, true.

Although: if someone engages you in battle in the wall, or if there's a secret Carpet of Adhesion trapping you inside the wall, you might be in some trouble.

Losing a HF roll might also terrify you to the point where you lose your sense of direction in the wall. This isn't specified, but one would imagine that the flames and writhing beings might make it hard to know where you are. This is especially true if the wall is combined with illusions, darkness, smoke, etc.

Little Snuzzles wrote:the only thing the spell really does is create a huge spectacle with a HF of 18. Yet, it costs six thousand PPE to cast!

It's a rather huge spectacle, is why.

Little Snuzzles wrote:This is beyond absurd when the 2nd level spell Fear creates a HF of 16, but it only cost five PPE to cast.

Yes, but how many people does that spell affect? Does it hurt anyone? Can it be used as a defensive barrier to hold off an army as you continue to flee?

Little Snuzzles wrote:You can bet your ass that if I get a hold of 6000 PPE to use against you, I will do a hell of a lot more than just scare you with a HF.

Oh? What would you propose as an alternative to destroy armies?

Little Snuzzles wrote:Lictalon, whoever they were, may have been a real bad-ass, but this spell sucks and is the ultimate dud in the Megaverse.

Keep in mind that Lictalon was a general involved in mass warfare conquering hell. Spells like this are of valuable tactical usages when holding off an army of hundreds in narrow passageways.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Well, think of it this way: the best wall is one no one would assult in the first place.

No, because Impenetrable Wall of Force is basically something people won't assault, since they can't damage it. But it doesn't damage them, so they can just calmly wait it out.

CWoL is better because it lures them in and actually damage their army, filled with false confidence that they can surpass the barrier. IWoL leaves your enemy at full strength, CWoL operates as a trap and a minion to weaken them for you.

Two phase assault with CWoL: Set Castle on fire, cast CWoL on castle gates

Tor wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:Well, think of it this way: the best wall is one no one would assult in the first place.

No, because Impenetrable Wall of Force is basically something people won't assault, since they can't damage it. But it doesn't damage them, so they can just calmly wait it out.

CWoL is better because it lures them in and actually damage their army, filled with false confidence that they can surpass the barrier. IWoL leaves your enemy at full strength, CWoL operates as a trap and a minion to weaken them for you.

Actually, the problem with IWoF is that it's a flat 100 feet radis and never improved. which means yes, if a 100 foot wall will do the trick, then IWoF is better, but in most cases 100 feet isn't enough to hold back an army.

however mostly it's I thought crimson wall of lictalon also prevented teleporting behind the barrier, but I was wrong, it's barrier of thoth that does that, so less useful than I thought.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:if a 100 foot wall will do the trick, then IWoF is better.

Only for short-term protection. Lictalon's wall helps defeat your enemy, protecting you long-term.

Tor wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:if a 100 foot wall will do the trick, then IWoF is better.

Only for short-term protection. Lictalon's wall helps defeat your enemy, protecting you long-term.

All I was saying is "There are some situations wher IWoF is a cheeper way to accomplish the same goal". if the situation is one wherein it does NOT accomplish the same goal, then clearly it's not a situation I was talking about

IWoF is a good missle-stopper... although the damage that Lictalon's does might be enough to detonate all but the toughest missles.

Do spells of legend have a level?

If not, you could store this in a talisman and pop it whilst raiding a Xiticix Queen lair. Seal off the doorways with it. The swarm is held at bay while you slaughter the queen.

It's a stretch.

Using this spell tactically makes little sense if it takes more than a few moments to cast. The duration is too short, and the cost is too high, unless you've got a huge stack of PPE battery talismans to use up, and few alternatives.

spells of legend only take 3 actions to cast.

On the Crimson Wall of Lictalon vs. Impenetrable Wall of Force front: 6 IWoFs cover a significantly larger area than a Crimson Wall, and that's how many you can cast for the same PPE. The Crimson wall also lasts much longer (5 min per level vs. 5 rounds per level for IWoF).

Ok, here's an idea. Let's say you're fighting some big baddie who is so powerful, you know you can't beat him. If you cast this spell directly on his position and find some way to hold him in place (confined space, carpet of adhesion, that anti-teleport spell from Library of Bletherad, alter gravity/weight to hold him down, et cetera), you could effectively kill/permanently imprison a dragon, god, or alien intelligence.

Again, it's a stretch.

Ooh! how about this?

People are falling from the sky. They're going to die, but you cast the wall over the ground, with a few feet of clearance underneath. The wall slows them to 1/4 of their speed (thus the impact energy/damage would be reduced to 1/16th), allowing them to land with reduced falling damage, and only the severe burns of the wall to deal with.

This assumes that passage speed is reduced in all three dimensions, not just running. That may not be realistic. It also assumes that those falling can sustain the damage of the wall, and that the caster could precisely place the wall in their fall path 45 seconds in advance of their fall (that would be thousands of feet in the air)

Again, it's a stretch.

Hotrod wrote:Ok, here's an idea. Let's say you're fighting some big baddie who is so powerful, you know you can't beat him. If you cast this spell directly on his position and find some way to hold him in place (confined space, carpet of adhesion, that anti-teleport spell from Library of Bletherad, alter gravity/weight to hold him down, et cetera), you could effectively kill/permanently imprison a dragon, god, or alien intelligence.

Again, it's a stretch.

How is that a sterch? That's exactly the way the spell should be used.

Remember, gods and alien intelligences in Rifts arn't ment to be unbeatable omnipotent beings. extremely powerful, yes, but cunning and power can definatly take them down.

Here's how it's a stretch:

First off, you'd have to have the right spells. Preventing teleportation is an obscure spell mentioned only in one Palladium Fantasy supplement. Without a way to prevent them from using their teleportation abilities (not spells; those would be easier to interdict), they get out easily. Such spells would be very difficult to acquire. Additionally, you'll need the required amount of PPE. That's not a trivial exercise.

Second, the multiple effects/conditions this would require would allow the big bad opponent multiple chances to save. If the target saves against any of them, they won't work. Dragons, gods, and intelligences usually have some hefty bonuses to save, too.

Third, casting a spell like this requires three melee rounds. That's 45 seconds without distraction. The target and the target's allies would likely be a bit suspicious.

Fourth, such beings frequently have ways of spotting danger ahead of time. Sixth sense, clairvoyance, et cetera would probably give them a heads-up. They don't live for tens of thousands of years by being stupid.

It's not impossible, but it would be very difficult and hairy to pull off.

You know, I was just thinking it over, there are a few foes I could see this working on, creatures who are incredibly tough, but not terribly cautious/clever by nature:

The Hundred-Handed are so ludicrously tough that taking them down is impractical, yet they're not terribly bright. This might be a practicable way to take them out. Of course, opening a rift under their feet to Hades, Dyval, Lone Star, deep space, or the Land of the Damned might work better and cost less.

Cosmo-knights aren't always the brightest lights on the tree, and they are vulnerable to magic. If you could find a way to ground one, and keep him from cosmic-blasting you while you cast the wall, this could work.

Hotrod wrote:Here's how it's a stretch:

First off, you'd have to have the right spells. Preventing teleportation is an obscure spell mentioned only in one Palladium Fantasy supplement. Without a way to prevent them from using their teleportation abilities (not spells; those would be easier to interdict), they get out easily. Such spells would be very difficult to acquire. Additionally, you'll need the required amount of PPE. That's not a trivial exercise.

Second, the multiple effects/conditions this would require would allow the big bad opponent multiple chances to save. If the target saves against any of them, they won't work. Dragons, gods, and intelligences usually have some hefty bonuses to save, too.

Third, casting a spell like this requires three melee rounds. That's 45 seconds without distraction. The target and the target's allies would likely be a bit suspicious.

Fourth, such beings frequently have ways of spotting danger ahead of time. Sixth sense, clairvoyance, et cetera would probably give them a heads-up. They don't live for tens of thousands of years by being stupid.

It's not impossible, but it would be very difficult and hairy to pull off.

Ah. I thought you ment streach as in "it's a hazy rule area", not streach as in difficult to pull off. By the rules it would certainly work and no question about it, except weather or not the being in question avoids it through various means you referenced

Assuming no saves, and plentiful PPE, this tactic could conceivably work on nearly anyone:

1. Carpet of Adhesion.
2. Anti-Magic Cloud.
3. Crimson Wall of Lictalon.

The target's feet are stuck (unless they're saved, but even then they're slowed), they can't cast spells or use magic items/abilities (unless they save at an un-modified 18 or higher, 15% chance, and even then they're penalized), and they're inside the wall. Their only prayer at that point is technology, psionics, saving over and over until the wall expires, or someone intervening.

I wonder if this would work on an Old One?

Don't forget that it lowers the speed of those caught within to 1/4. With how large an area this spell can cover at higher levels, the risk of becoming lost within the wall is greatly increased.

Hotrod wrote:Here's how it's a stretch:

First off, you'd have to have the right spells. Preventing teleportation is an obscure spell mentioned only in one Palladium Fantasy supplement. Without a way to prevent them from using their teleportation abilities (not spells; those would be easier to interdict), they get out easily. Such spells would be very difficult to acquire. Additionally, you'll need the required amount of PPE. That's not a trivial exercise.

Third, casting a spell like this requires three melee rounds. That's 45 seconds without distraction. The target and the target's allies would likely be a bit suspicious.

Spells of Legend take three melee actions to cast, not three melee rounds.

Also, off the top of my head, I can think of at least two other spells beyond the one mentioned in Library of Bletherad that can prevent teleportation in the affected area, though the Dimensional Barrier spell would likely be fairly well known throughout the greater Megaverse, at least in certain circles, due to the innumerable beings with dimensional travel powers or magic and the inevitable need to secure areas from intrusion and to capture or imprison them.

Hotrod wrote:Do spells of legend have a level? If not, you could store this in a talisman

Lacking a level doesn't mean you can store something in a talisman. A spell must be specifically level 1 to 8 (or was that 6?) to be stored in one. If level isn't specified, you can't talisman it, though you can scroll it perhaps.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:spells of legend only take 3 actions to cast.

This'd put them in the same range as 11-15... personally I always considered SoLs to be at least level 15, if not higher. Since experience tables give us guidelines to be level 16, that'd probably be a good spot. I wouldn't be opposed to a level 16 ley line walker learning a spell of legend eh?

Talavar wrote:On the Crimson Wall of Lictalon vs. Impenetrable Wall of Force front: 6 IWoFs cover a significantly larger area than a Crimson Wall, and that's how many you can cast for the same PPE. The Crimson wall also lasts much longer (5 min per level vs. 5 rounds per level for IWoF).

Yeah but Impenetrable Force walls merely frustrate armies. Crimson Lictalon walls traumatize them.

Hotrod wrote:Preventing teleportation is an obscure spell mentioned only in one Palladium Fantasy supplement.

Cool, I want to know more about that.

Hotrod wrote:Assuming no saves, and plentiful PPE, this tactic could conceivably work on nearly anyone:

1. Carpet of Adhesion.
2. Anti-Magic Cloud.
3. Crimson Wall of Lictalon.

The target's feet are stuck (unless they're saved, but even then they're slowed), they can't cast spells or use magic items/abilities (unless they save at an un-modified 18 or higher, 15% chance, and even then they're penalized), and they're inside the wall. Their only prayer at that point is technology, psionics, saving over and over until the wall expires, or someone intervening.

I wonder if this would work on an Old One?

It might, but Old Ones, like most alien intelligences, probably regenerate the damage inflicted upon entering quickly. Plus I don' think the GOOs would have any trouble making the savings throws versus magic and insanity. Their bonus to save versus magic might even eclipse the spell strength.

Spells of Legend take three melee actions to cast, not three melee rounds.

RUE-wise, yeah. Am wondering if Palladium wants to apply this to other dimensions too, or if the high magic levels of Rifts make it faster to cast magic, even if it apparently doesn't do much to boost non-MD inflicting spells.

Hotrod wrote:Do spells of legend have a level?

If not, you could store this in a talisman and pop it whilst raiding a Xiticix Queen lair. Seal off the doorways with it. The swarm is held at bay while you slaughter the queen.

It's a stretch.

Using this spell tactically makes little sense if it takes more than a few moments to cast. The duration is too short, and the cost is too high, unless you've got a huge stack of PPE battery talismans to use up, and few alternatives.

Not very likely.

Xiticix fight, run, and attack in three dimensions, often digging their way to your position on the fly and in the midst of battle, as well as defensively and offensively collapsing walls to retreat, to slow down your advance, and to ambush you (also digging pitfalls underneath you as opportunity allows).

And all that is before you ever even get close to ONE of the Queens (if even one gets away the fun starts all over again), and their individual retinues of Royal Guards.

Tor wrote:

Hotrod wrote:Preventing teleportation is an obscure spell mentioned only in one Palladium Fantasy supplement.

Cool, I want to know more about that.

Library of Bletherad, p87. Dimensional Barrier. No dimensional travel allowed. No saving throw. Local teleporting could still work, though.

Anti-Magic Cloud is more comprehensive, but does allow a saving throw (un-modified 18-20).

Those are the only spells I know off the top of my head that can stop travel.

Hotrod wrote:

Tor wrote:

Hotrod wrote:Preventing teleportation is an obscure spell mentioned only in one Palladium Fantasy supplement.

Cool, I want to know more about that.

Library of Bletherad, p87. Dimensional Barrier. No dimensional travel allowed. No saving throw. Local teleporting could still work, though.

Anti-Magic Cloud is more comprehensive, but does allow a saving throw (un-modified 18-20).

Those are the only spells I know off the top of my head that can stop travel.

There's also the level 10 Seal Against Teleportation & Mystic Portal spell found in the Fleets of the Three Galaxies book and the level 9 Dimensional Anchor spell from Rifter #15.

cornholioprime wrote:

Hotrod wrote:Do spells of legend have a level?

If not, you could store this in a talisman and pop it whilst raiding a Xiticix Queen lair. Seal off the doorways with it. The swarm is held at bay while you slaughter the queen.

It's a stretch.

Using this spell tactically makes little sense if it takes more than a few moments to cast. The duration is too short, and the cost is too high, unless you've got a huge stack of PPE battery talismans to use up, and few alternatives.

Not very likely.

Xiticix fight, run, and attack in three dimensions, often digging their way to your position on the fly and in the midst of battle, as well as defensively and offensively collapsing walls to retreat, to slow down your advance, and to ambush you (also digging pitfalls underneath you as opportunity allows).

And all that is before you ever even get close to ONE of the Queens (if even one gets away the fun starts all over again), and their individual retinues of Royal Guards.

I was thinking more along the lines of a "Portal in, kill the queen, portal out" approach. I haven't looked at the Xiticix sourcebook in a long time, but wasn't Lazlo trying to do something like that?

Use CWoL in conjunction with a few castings of CoA and you have a really insane group of people, the terror would be much worse if they can't get out.

I suspect the 6000 ppe Lictalon would have used to cast this would have come from the battlefield losses as NPCs are notorious for being able to bend/break rules such as that. At 6k PPE I don't see anyone wasting 120 fully charged talisman on it for any reason. (Assuming the GM let them make/use that many)...

Hot Rod wrote:I suspect the 6000 ppe Lictalon would have used to cast this would have come from the battlefield losses as NPCs are notorious for being able to bend/break rules such as that. At 6k PPE I don't see anyone wasting 120 fully charged talisman on it for any reason. (Assuming the GM let them make/use that many)...

Well there are ways of reducing PPE costs, including a few rare rings that halve the costs for any spell cast and if he was using it at a battlefield he was likely drawing PPE in from the deaths and/or just having some mage allies around to supply extra PPE. That doesn't count for of course NPC specials like experiencing some ancient ritual that doubled (or more) his base PPE.

Hot Rod wrote:I suspect the 6000 ppe Lictalon would have used to cast this would have come from the battlefield losses as NPCs are notorious for being able to bend/break rules such as that. At 6k PPE I don't see anyone wasting 120 fully charged talisman on it for any reason. (Assuming the GM let them make/use that many)...

This isn't the kind of spell anyone short of an ancient dragon or deity would spontaneously cast in the heat of battle. It would come from a scroll that had been prepared far ahead of time, likely cast by a group of mages at a time and place of power and perhaps supplemented by additional PPE storage vessels[talismans, energy spheres, etc].

It's the type of magic a kingdom would commission a powerful guild to produce for large scale warfare.

Ectoplasmic Bidet wrote:

Hot Rod wrote:I suspect the 6000 ppe Lictalon would have used to cast this would have come from the battlefield losses as NPCs are notorious for being able to bend/break rules such as that. At 6k PPE I don't see anyone wasting 120 fully charged talisman on it for any reason. (Assuming the GM let them make/use that many)...

This isn't the kind of spell anyone short of an ancient dragon or deity would spontaneously cast in the heat of battle. It would come from a scroll that had been prepared far ahead of time, likely cast by a group of mages at a time and place of power and perhaps supplemented by additional PPE storage vessels[talismans, energy spheres, etc].

It's the type of magic a kingdom would commission a powerful guild to produce for large scale warfare.

Thank you! This is exactly the perspective needed when critiquing an spell like this.

Little Snuzzles wrote:Here's a real simple way:

1. Cast Sanctuary on yourself.
2. Run or fly through the middle of the army, making threatening gestures.
3. As soon as army is incapacitated (for 1D6 hours!), cast Steel Rain.
4. Everybody dies.

Total PPE cost: 1860.

1) Santuary doenst target you, it targets an area though you could cast it while in the middle of an army.
2) I dont think that the incapacitation lasts 1d6 hours/level just the spell itself.

Little Snuzzles wrote:

Losing a HF roll might also terrify you to the point where you lose your sense of direction in the wall.

And maybe it will rain beer someday, too.

Not really, when it's easy to fly over it or around it.

If I was a Horror or a Beast and some human wasted their magic casting that, I would laugh and laugh, and later, put their head on a pike to decorate my kitchen.

First, when you're talking hundreds, or thousands, of people making the saves, how many natural 1's do you think would be made? And then the mass panic on top of it? Plus teh confusion caused in that panic? Use your noggin...

Second, when you're talking mass armies, you often don't have every troop with access to flight... in fact, most of your army won't.

Further keep in mind, Lictalon wasn't "some human" wasting magic.

Lictalon was an elf. Before you start making comments about that not being much more than a long lived pointy eared human, keep reading.

Lictalon was an elf wizard that was on par with GODS. Not just in knowledge, not just in power, not just in experience, not just in creativity, not just in battlefield leadership, not just in being a main opponent of the OO, but in ALL of these things.

He was a "lowly" mortal who was spitting in the face of Old Ones. He was fighting side-by-side with DEITIES, and those deities weren't looking down on his power. What does that say?

He was powerful enough that his name became a power word. How many beings can say that? Some OOs, an angel (who hung out with Lictalon)... again, what does that say?

I could go on, and on, and on.. but Lictalon was a HERO OF LIGHT... not just some lowly mortal. Remember that when you want to talk so down about him...

Little Snuzzles wrote:

Keep in mind that Lictalon was a general involved in mass warfare conquering hell. Spells like this are of valuable tactical usages when holding off an army of hundreds in narrow passageways.

Not really, when it's easy to fly over it or around it.

If I was a Horror or a Beast and some human wasted their magic casting that, I would laugh and laugh, and later, put their head on a pike to decorate my kitchen.

I agree it would be of limited use in conquering hades, however, have your read the first land of the damned book? it stats out a few dozen of the old ones minion races who fought during the the war, and most of the shock troopers could neither fly nor use magic.

Little Snuzzles wrote:

Goliath Strongarm wrote:First, when you're talking hundreds, or thousands, of people making the saves, how many natural 1's do you think would be made? And then the mass panic on top of it? Plus teh confusion caused in that panic?

I mean no disrespect when I say honestly that I could not understand the point you were trying to make with the above quoted comment. Could you please clarify the point for me? Thank you.

This was in response to the comment about people getting lost in the wall, and the sarcastic response about it possibly raining beer...

The spell seems like its not that useful when you're talking about the save... but then, take into account the NUMBER of people rolling saves... unless your GM does a cheesy "roll once for the entire freaking army" (I could understand by groupings of like 10 or 100 or whatever, depending on how large an army, based on the quantity of rolls. Who wants to sit there while the GM rolls 5000 times? Hrmm.. was that roll 4323, or 4324? Let me count...), you are going to have a LOT of people failing their saves, based upon the law of averages. Roughly 5% are going to get a natural 1. Others are still going to fail. Because when you're talking about a 15th level wiz, you're now talking about a save of 21. The more these people fail, the more they will be running around, screaming, and/or getting lost in the wall and becoming souls IN the wall. Which is going to freak out their buddies. Which is going to cause them to just RUN AWAY, not focusing on any direction except AWAY. Possibly further into the wall. It's called PANIC. Ever seen a battlefield when things go horribly, horribly wrong? Even the best disciplined armies are going to have problems when 5% of their troops get sucked into a wall of death... Even demonic or deevilish armies

Second, when you're talking mass armies, you often don't have every troop with access to flight... in fact, most of your army won't.

I was under the understanding that the question was: "How could a single mage with 6000 PPE more effectively attack a large army than by casting CWoL?"

So with that in mind, it would only take one or two flying mages to (using the premise that Sanctuary is a constant radius) to completely immobilize a huge army in no time at all. [/quote]

I was referencing the "easily gone around or flown over" comment.

For your "one or two" (we'll assume 15th level, so sanctuary is 750 foot radius), it doesn't take a genius to see people being immobilized when they attack, so decide to NOT attack. "I think I'll hunker down and hide until those mages are NOT flying around". Or hey, how about we get OUR mages out there... "negate magic" isn't exactly an attack (at least, IMO). Or have our mages summon and control storms, or summon and control a bunch of birds to mess with their flight... not attack, just mess with...

Or my personal favorite- throw up antimagic clouds <lots and lots, so they have to keep saving> (which, with a similar caster level, will be twice as large of a radius as the sanctuary), and let them go "oh crud" and suddenly NOT be flying.. Unless they are Wile E. Coyote, they won't be climbing out of their impact crater. If they are flying with wings, and not by magic, they still lost their sanctuary. And all those troops that were immobilized? They're now free to move. And doubly pissed off.

**SNIP LICTALON PROPAGANDA LEAFLET**

Since this thread has nothing whatsoever to do with Lictalon himself, I'm puzzled as to why you have chosen to give this elaborate endorsement of him.

The thread is about normal spell casters and asks if this spell has any real practical value. Whatever actions Lictalon took in some bygone age is completely irrelevent to the question itself.[/quote]

My reasons for posting that:

Lictalon, whoever they were, may have been a real bad-ass, but this spell sucks and is the ultimate dud in the Megaverse.

I suspect the 6000 ppe Lictalon would have used to cast this would have come from the battlefield losses as NPCs are notorious for being able to bend/break rules such as that. At 6k PPE I don't see anyone wasting 120 fully charged talisman on it for any reason. (Assuming the GM let them make/use that many)...

Well there are ways of reducing PPE costs, including a few rare rings that halve the costs for any spell cast and if he was using it at a battlefield he was likely drawing PPE in from the deaths and/or just having some mage allies around to supply extra PPE. That doesn't count for of course NPC specials like experiencing some ancient ritual that doubled (or more) his base PPE.

If I was a Horror or a Beast and some human wasted their magic casting that, I would laugh and laugh, and later, put their head on a pike to decorate my kitchen

So, I was addressing who Lictalon was, what kind of bad*** he was, and just why he might have invented and been using a spell like this... And just why, maybe, we don't have to consider that the rules were being "bent" for him to have access to that kind of PPE... This was also during the time when the PF world was rich in magic, possibly higher than RIFTs earth, after all...

Just for the record, folks, and as an interesting sidebar, Lictalon is still alive (Elf though he is) and running around today.........

(No, really!)

cornholioprime wrote:Just for the record, folks, and as an interesting sidebar, Lictalon is still alive (Elf though he is) and running around today.........

I thought it was a "we don't know where he went, when he went, or what he decided to go do... and we're kind of scared to find out" situation...

He just went "poof" when nothing as interesting as the OO war was going on anymore...

Goliath Strongarm wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:Just for the record, folks, and as an interesting sidebar, Lictalon is still alive (Elf though he is) and running around today.........

I thought it was a "we don't know where he went, when he went, or what he decided to go do... and we're kind of scared to find out" situation...

He just went "poof" when nothing as interesting as the OO war was going on anymore...

It was heavily implied in the Hades dimension book that Modeus (current ruler of hades) took lictalon prisoner and is keeping his in anti-magic sackles and occasionally trots him out to pubically torment and humiliate. it dosn't come out and say it's him, but it's an absurdly old elf who matches discriptions and spends a lot of time muttering about the war with the old ones in between dropping bits of magic lore or secrets to spells that is far beyond what most know.

I always took this as a plot hook to go rescue him, myself.

Hotrod wrote:Library of Bletherad, p87. Dimensional Barrier. No dimensional travel allowed. No saving throw. Local teleporting could still work, though. Anti-Magic Cloud is more comprehensive, but does allow a saving throw (un-modified 18-20).

Awesome thanks, had LoB but I guess that seemed forgettable at the time, pretty useful though.

Ectoplasmic Bidet wrote:level 10 Seal Against Teleportation & Mystic Portal spell found in the Fleets of the Three Galaxies book

Well that get's my SATAMP of approval.

Ectoplasmic Bidet wrote:and the level 9 Dimensional Anchor spell from Rifter #15.

Sounds like Space Magic, surprised Palladium hasn't incorporated that into canon like a lot of other Rifter magics. You'd think Blood Magic would'a made it.

Chronicle wrote:Use CWoL in conjunction with a few castings of CoA and you have a really insane group of people, the terror would be much worse if they can't get out.

Considering the tendency of CWoL to permanently absorb people into it after a while...

Ectoplasmic Bidet wrote:This isn't the kind of spell anyone short of an ancient dragon or deity would spontaneously cast in the heat of battle.

We should keep in mind that having ruled over parts of Hades, Lictalon himself could've on par with Demon Lords in terms of PPE. Probably puts Inglix and Dunscon to shame at least.

Little Snuzzles wrote:I doubt very seriously that anybody, particularly a army of soliders, would try to enter such a wall for any reason. It would simply be too scary.

Some armies, maybe not. Armies have different compositions and different leaders though. Some are more reckless with their lives, some more inconsiderate of their troops' wellbeing.

What'samatter apes? You wanna live forever?

Little Snuzzles wrote:if everyone was using some sort of drug that caused irrational courage

We should keep in mind a lot of warrior OCCs get bonuses to save vs horror factor, as do some races. Not to mention that even if you fail a HF roll and run away from an enemy, if the commander pushing you forward in battle ALSO has a HF, and you fail against him, you might be sent running right back.

We really should have some kinda "between a rock and a hardplace" HF contest rules for when you have 2 choices before you in contrasting scary things and must face the wrath of one terror or the other.

Ie Styphon tellins his followers "go attack Klynncryth for me or I'll eat you".

Little Snuzzles wrote:Regular soliders in an army are usually 2-4th level and have no experience with magic. A spell like this would be pretty terrifying and I can't imagine any sane person even considering entering it.

Regular soldiers aren't exactly the kind of threats you'd want to waste a huge amount of PPE on anyway. It helps in dealing with more serious threats, as well as weak threats driven forward by more serious generals.

Little Snuzzles wrote:I wonder if it would be possible to cast a spell inside another spell in the manner that you are describing.

I don't see why not. There's still a ground people walk on inside the wall, which the carpet is being cast on. Can I not hit someone I cast Sleep on with a Fireball?

Little Snuzzles wrote:maybe it will rain beer someday, too.

Er... not sure why the mockery, you've never heard of tunnel vision under stress?

Little Snuzzles wrote:1. Cast Sanctuary on yourself.
2. Run or fly through the middle of the army, making threatening gestures.
3. As soon as army is incapacitated (for 1D6 hours!), cast Steel Rain.
4. Everybody dies.
Total PPE cost: 1860.

You don't think after the first soldier or two that attacks you becomes paralyzed that the commander might catch on that magic is afoot and order a cessation of hostilities, regrouping, etc?

Also good luck with this if there's a Nega or Nulli among them Crimson Wall can be set up as a passive defense and can't be stopped by those psychics unless they happen to be right there when you cast it ahead of time.

Little Snuzzles wrote:

Spells like this are of valuable tactical usages when holding off an army of hundreds in narrow passageways.

Not really, when it's easy to fly over it or around it.

Even if you have fliers in your army, it probably won't compose the full army, so you will divide the forces, so it's still useful.

Little Snuzzles wrote:If I was a Horror or a Beast and some human wasted their magic casting that, I would laugh

Beasts can fly, Horrors can't. Although I suppose they could use Mystic Portal to skip past the wall But then, these are Greaters, we're talking about stopping Subs or Lessers most likely, if not mortal slaves.

eliakon wrote:Santuary doenst target you, it targets an area though you could cast it while in the middle of an army.

True. It's also worth noting that the radius of affect of steel rain is half that of sanctuary. Still useful combo though, providing there aren't any counters for it.

eliakon wrote:I dont think that the incapacitation lasts 1d6 hours/level just the spell itself.

How long should it last? The version in HU2 doesn't mention any shorter separate durations so it's implied the paralysis is for the full duration. Maybe some other printings add a clarification?

Goliath Strongarm wrote:when you're talking hundreds, or thousands, of people making the saves, how many natural 1's do you think would be made? And then the mass panic on top of it? Plus teh confusion caused in that panic?

Has Palladium actually supporting the 'natural 1' thing? Thought was house rule.

Also considering that failing HF saves keeps you away from the damaging wall, people rolling nat 20s for HF are actually in more danger, since they might wander into it

Goliath Strongarm wrote:his name became a power word. How many beings can say that? Some OOs, an angel (who hung out with Lictalon)... again, what does that say?

I could go on, and on, and on.. but Lictalon was a HERO OF LIGHT... not just some lowly mortal. Remember that when you want to talk so down about him...

Forgive my skepticism that Lictalon and Lo-kum were utterly good guys. Wanting to put away the GOOs doesn't mean you're not evil too. I think it was mentioned that lowly AIs like the Splugorth and Vampires would also be interested in keeping the big guys asleep and not support attempts to awaken'm.

Do you know if it ever clarifies which of the 4 angel types Lo-Kum was?

Nekira Sudacne wrote:have your read the first land of the damned book? it stats out a few dozen of the old ones minion races

I gotta stop ignoring the PF world books... why do I keep thinking they're just a bunch of boring medieval source materials in spite of hearing about all the cool OCCs and beasties and stuff in'm...

Little Snuzzles wrote:specialized several spells for Shifters that allow one to prevent teleport that were mentioned in The Rifter. Also, the United Worlds of Warlock also have Space Magic spells that prevent teleporting and mystic portal as well

We should probably make a collective list of canon and non-canon spells that do this.

Little Snuzzles wrote:spell prevents all acts of aggression or hostility

Any creature that attempts to attack or harm

all forms of war machinery, Iron Juggernauts and Automatons, as well as robots, cyborgs, battle vehicles, animated dead and Golems

missiles or bombs fired or dropped into the sanctuary zone will be instantly deactivated

These additional notes about missles/robots appear to expand and 'power up' the spell somewhat, since they wouldn't fall under the original 'creatures' text.

This makes me wonder what would happen if I was using biological warfare and sending fumes of toxic gas into an area protected by Sanctuary. Would the toxic fumes and particles, like missiles, fall to the ground?

Little Snuzzles wrote:

Use your noggin...

Ad Hominem.

That was rude and an erroneous form of argument but I think it'd fit some other definition, not ad hominem.... it's close but I think to qualify it has to be phrased like "you don't use your noggin so your argument is flawed" which bypasses actually addressing an argument via implying its incorrectness based on a presumed quality of the presenter.

Little Snuzzles wrote:it would only take one or two flying mages to (using the premise that Sanctuary is a constant radius) to completely immobilize a huge army in no time at all.

That only applies if every member of the army attempted to attack the flying mage. It's doubtful every single member would target you immediately. That would normally be a waste of ammunition. A small amount would, under orders of their superior, fire at you, and become immobilized. A smart superior would figure out something is amiss and order a halt until figuring out what's happening. "Flee, regroup", etc.

Assuming less than half of the army was paralyzed, as soon as their buddies petrified and you cast your Steel Rain, they would quickly drag their buddies outside the radius of effect, saving both of themselves. They could do this rather quickly if they loaded their buddies onto transport vehicles, which would still be mobile so long as they hadn't fired at you.

I'm actually a bit confused how that would work: if a turret on a vehicle fired at you, would it be the whole vehicle that's paralyzed, or just the turret? What if an operator detached the offending turret? The rest of the vehicle didn't do the attack so it should be unaffected at that point.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:I always took this as a plot hook to go rescue him, myself.

If you don't somehow involve Tolmet in the endeavour, it will suck.

The original "use your noggin" comment was directed as part of a statement, added as a "you seem starter than that, so think it through". It has since been snipped, so it stands on its own and looks like it was directed as an insult...

Toxic gas... Interesting idea. Will have to think on that
For the vehicle, I would say that the weapon system and the gunner are affected...

It's funny it lists missiles and bombs, but doesn't mention spells, lasers, psionics, energy weapons, etc etc.

just a question here too, while the sanctuary spell says that it 'temproaraly' paralyzis someone....I dont think that it should be allowed to be an instant death no save spell, and if your unconcuse for 60+hours...thats days with out food or water, your going to have deaths....this to me suggests that while the SANCTUARY (which I would argue is NOT mobile since it is not explicitly mobile,) lasts for hours, the 'being struck down' only lasts for a short period, again opinions will vary, but since the spell doesnt explicitly say either way *shrugs*

Little Snuzzles wrote:

eliakon wrote:just a question here too, while the sanctuary spell says that it 'temproaraly' paralyzis someone....I dont think that it should be allowed to be an instant death no save spell, and if your unconcuse for 60+hours...thats days with out food or water, your going to have deaths.

You're implying that if this is the case, it it somehow 'unfair'.

I think that's a double-standard that is all too common in the RPG world: it's ok for technological weapons to do ungodly amounts of damage, but if someone figures out a way to kill lots of people using magic, somehow that is "unfair". It's absurd.

No I am saying a spell that has no save, and can instantly kill everyone around the mage might be a bit overpowered

Little Snuzzles wrote:

eliakon wrote:(which I would argue is NOT mobile since it is not explicitly mobile,)

It says a "radius around the mage" instead of designating a area-effect like Screaming Wall of Flame (eg. "Covers a 10 foot area per level of the Warlock and can be cast up to 90 feet away."). Thus, I interpret this to mean that it moves with the mage.

thats fine, but the way I see it is that its not mobile and has to be centered on the mage when cast. It doesnt say that it moves with them, and I cant find any other examples of area effect spells that move with the mage

eliakon wrote:

Little Snuzzles wrote:

eliakon wrote:just a question here too, while the sanctuary spell says that it 'temproaraly' paralyzis someone....I dont think that it should be allowed to be an instant death no save spell, and if your unconcuse for 60+hours...thats days with out food or water, your going to have deaths.

You're implying that if this is the case, it it somehow 'unfair'.

I think that's a double-standard that is all too common in the RPG world: it's ok for technological weapons to do ungodly amounts of damage, but if someone figures out a way to kill lots of people using magic, somehow that is "unfair". It's absurd.

No I am saying a spell that has no save, and can instantly kill everyone around the mage might be a bit overpowered

and his question is "Why is it an overpowered spell, when technology can make nukes that instantly kill everyone around the bomb with no save"

While not specified in the spell, as a GM, I'd have to rule with Sanctuary being stationary, for the following reasons:

1) The name, SANCTUARY, implies a stationary location
2) It's a beefed up version of Sanctum, which is a stationary spell
3) Reading through it (and this from a guy who normally plays a mage of one variety or another!), it is intended as a stationary, IMO.

eliakon wrote:

Little Snuzzles wrote:

eliakon wrote:just a question here too, while the sanctuary spell says that it 'temproaraly' paralyzis someone....I dont think that it should be allowed to be an instant death no save spell, and if your unconcuse for 60+hours...thats days with out food or water, your going to have deaths.

You're implying that if this is the case, it it somehow 'unfair'.

I think that's a double-standard that is all too common in the RPG world: it's ok for technological weapons to do ungodly amounts of damage, but if someone figures out a way to kill lots of people using magic, somehow that is "unfair". It's absurd.

No I am saying a spell that has no save, and can instantly kill everyone around the mage might be a bit overpowered

It's a Spell of Legend costing 1500 PPE. Overpowered is exactly what it should be.

Why would the party mage bother spending 6000 ppe to cast it, All he has to do is find that most powerful of creature, a level 6 priest of Od as they can prayer of intervention a scroll of CWoL into existence once per day, or sanctuary, or whatever spell you like %54. We sneak into the city and cast it on the enemy barracks (Imagine waking up in a CWoL). Unless we had a few days to prepare we probably have 3 scrolls, 2 of CWoL and 1 of sanctuary. The wizard casts fly and invis and goes inside the castle, casts sanctuary then the outside army attacks and he casts CWoL on the armoury and barracks, or just cast it on the gates area or area leading to the gates and the enemy is dHoomed . . with a capital H.