The Mage Armor Rule

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The Mage Armor Rule

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

I've gone over it before at length, but figured I'd bring it up again, and break it down for people who missed me talking about it the last time.
In shore, you can ignore this rule safely.
I don't mean, "you can play the game without it," although you can, and many people do.
I mean, "If you're a mage, and your GM enforces the rules about casting in heavy armor, as described by the book, wear heavy armor anyway."
Because the rules as written don't really do anything other than annoy the GM who has to roll all the dice.

Pasted from a previous most of mine discussing this rule:

...any TW device ignores the penalties for armor, so it's only proper spellcasting that's an issue.
More importantly, the penalties doen't really matter.

+20% cost on PPE means that a spell that costs 10 PPE now costs 12 PPE.
Big whoop.
A Ley Line Walker in RUE starts off with 3d6x10+20+PE PPE, so an average first level LLW has 135 PPE.
Wearing the proper armor, he can cast Fire Bolt (for example) 19 times.
Wearing the wrong armor, he can only cast Fire Bolt 16 times.
Believe it or not, that extra three castings isn't going to matter 99.99% of the time.
Most mages don't actually deplete their PPE reserves on anything resembling a regular basis.

What's more, on low level spells, the penalties literally do not matter at all.
Globe of Daylight has a PPE cost of 2.
120% of 2 is 2.4, which rounds right back down to 2 again.
Which means that there is ZERO difference cost-wise between casting that spell wearing LLW armor and wearing Heavy Deadboy.

Now you're thinking that high level spells are probably where it makes a difference.
Say you're spending 600 PPE on Teleport: Superior, wearing the wrong armor would bump that up to 720, a full 120 PPE!
Big whoop.
In order to cast that kind of spell, a mage has to have extra PPE coming from somewhere anyway: ley line nexus, blood sacrifice, borrowing from other people, or a crapload of talismans, etc.
And I can't think of ANY of these methods where getting an extra 120 PPE would be significantly harder than getting the initial 600 to begin with.

As for the other penalties, take a look at that table again and do the math.
There's a 20% chance that no penalties kick in.
There's a 20% chance each that damage/effects OR duration OR range OR range + duration are affected.

So you cast Fire Bolt, and what's the potential problem?
Well, range could be affected... but I've rarely seen anybody cast spells at maximum range, so that's not going to be a problem except in very rare cases.
Damage could be affected, and that'd possibly suck... but there's only a 20% chance of that happening.
And in those 20% of case where you cast Fire Bolt and your damage IS reduced, it's reduced by 1d4x10%.
If you roll average damage for your Fire Bolt, that's normally 14 MD.
IF the damage ends up being reduced, that means there's a
25% chance that you instead inflict 13 MD (big whoop)
25% chance that you instead inflict 11 MD
25% chance that you instead inflict 10 MD
25% chance that you instead inflict 8 MD

Which means that the 20% of the time that damage being nerfed matters, it's not going to make a heck of a lot of difference about 75% of the time, IF that: remember, the GI-Joe rule means that small damage differences like this probably don't matter anyway.

Or let's say that you cast Magic Net instead.

The range is normally 60', the damage is zero, and the duration is 30 seconds per level of the caster.
Right off, there's a 40% chance that the spell isn't affected at all, because you either roll the that no problems occur or that a problem with damage occurs.

20% of the time, range will be decreased. With a range of 60', this means that there's a 25% chance each time range IS affected of the new range being:
54'
48'
42'
36'
Most likely the first 6-12' isn't going to determine whether or not the spell hits the target, so there's only about a 50% chance that the range difference is going to matter, less if you take possible range issues into account when casting spells in the first place.

20% of the time, the duration is going to be reduced by 1d4x10%.
So instead of 30 seconds per caster level, the spell will instead last:
27 seconds
24 seconds
21 seconds
18 seconds
Per level.
At first level, that might make a difference, but probably not much of one since the people are still going to be immobilized for over a full melee round minimum.

And there's a 20% chance that both range and duration are reduced by 20%, so the spell will have a range of 48' and a duration of 24 seconds per level.
Which, again, isn't really going to matter the vast majority of the time.

Or say you cast a spell on yourself, something like Fly As The Eagle.
Damage isn't an issue, and range isn't an issue. The only element that could be affected that matters is duration.
So if you roll that duration alone is affected, that means that instead of 20 minutes per level, you get:
18 minutes per level
16 minutes per level
14 minutes per level
12 minutes per level

None of which is really likely to matter. If you cast the spell in combat, even at 12 minutes you're not going to have to worry about the duration running out on you before combat is long over.
For non-combat usage, like long-range travel, you're going to have to cast the spell multiple times anyway, at low level at least.
So I'd say there's something like a 10% chance of it mattering, in the 20% of the time that duration happens to be affected anway.

None of the above is really an incentive to not wear normal body armor.

What IS an incentive for mages to not wear body armor is that now everything you do takes longer.
You can't just cast Fire Ball, then roll for damage.
You have to cast Fire Ball, then roll to see what (if anything) aspect of the spell is reduced, then you have to roll again to see by how much, and if those results might matter, you have to do the math to find out exactly what's going on.
And you have to discuss from time to time with the GM whether PPE cost is rounded up or down, and whether Mega-Damage should be rounded up or down, and other piddly little disagreements might arise because Palladium was (according to you) so offended at people ignoring the original rules that they came up with a bunch of useless and more complicated rules for those same people to ignore (not to mention a large number of other people who followed the original rules, but avoid the new mess that was created).


Now, different people have different styles, and different luck, so some people's experiences may differ from what I'm projecting there.
If so, feel free to explain how the mage armor rule itself significantly impacted your gaming experience.
Not just fear of the rule- not just avoiding casting spells, or avoiding heavy armor, because you were afraid of what might happen, but actually rolling on the charts and having a spell go wrong as described by the rules when casting in heavy armor.
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Re: The Mage Armor Rule

Unread post by Talavar »

My group has always just ignored it - Rifts isn't D&D, and as your math has shown, it's a pretty meaningless penalty most of the time anyway.
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Re: The Mage Armor Rule

Unread post by Riftmaker »

my biggest issue with this rule is that it came out of nowhere in federation of magic seemingly just so you could have the mystic knights be immune to it.
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Re: The Mage Armor Rule

Unread post by flatline »

We never used it. Most spell casting during combat was done through technowizardry or talismans anyways (this was before RUE made low level spells a single action to cast) and most of us used force fields anyways.

The rule that always bothered me was that bionics interfere with magic, yet they never detail how one gets biological replacement appendages (cloned arms, for example). It's implied that they exist, but never explained in any book that I've read.

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Re: The Mage Armor Rule

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

flatline wrote:We never used it. Most spell casting during combat was done through technowizardry or talismans anyways (this was before RUE made low level spells a single action to cast) and most of us used force fields anyways.

The rule that always bothered me was that bionics interfere with magic, yet they never detail how one gets biological replacement appendages (cloned arms, for example). It's implied that they exist, but never explained in any book that I've read.

--flatline


The closest thing they have are bio-systems.
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Re: The Mage Armor Rule

Unread post by Riftmaker »

are their even rules for bio systems?
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Re: The Mage Armor Rule

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Riftmaker wrote:are their even rules for bio systems?


Rifts, 232-233
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Re: The Mage Armor Rule

Unread post by Riftmaker »

never noticed those. Anything beyond the original rifts book?
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Re: The Mage Armor Rule

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

the bionics sourcebook...
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Re: The Mage Armor Rule

Unread post by Nekira Sudacne »

flatline wrote:We never used it. Most spell casting during combat was done through technowizardry or talismans anyways (this was before RUE made low level spells a single action to cast) and most of us used force fields anyways.

The rule that always bothered me was that bionics interfere with magic, yet they never detail how one gets biological replacement appendages (cloned arms, for example). It's implied that they exist, but never explained in any book that I've read.

--flatline


the Kittani in rifts atlantis are stated to provide cloned replacements, IIRC. Rifts japan also has this technology.
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Re: The Mage Armor Rule

Unread post by kaid »

The armor rules are a bit funny especially now that lemuria is out. Basically it is not so much an issue between light and heavy armor but natural versus synthetic/inorganic armor. Given you now potentially have casters being able to cast out of what is basically organic power armor I really don't see any point to the armor penalties any more. As one person said they pretty much popped out in federation of magic just to allow mystic knights to be immune to it.

That said most of my casters really never bothered with the heavier armor anyway. With TW armor and protection spells like armor of ithan most of the time my actual "armor" never got damaged at all only my magic fields so even light armor was sufficient protection to stop bleed through that rarely occurred.
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Re: The Mage Armor Rule

Unread post by flatline »

Force fields (tecnological, magical, or otherwise) offer a significant tactical advantage in that the wearer of said force field is effectively "immune" to called shots. The fact that mages, unlike most other classes, have such easy access to force fields (e.g. Armor of Ithan), it's no wonder that mages don't feel the need to wear heavy armor (or any armor at all!).

--flatline
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Re: The Mage Armor Rule

Unread post by Cybermancer »

Very nicely deconstructed.

I just hope I never have a player read this. It'll be anarchy if mages suddenly lose their irrational fear of heavy armor. Anarchy!

It's amazing how many players are scared off by the fact that penalties exist without analyzing what those penalties actually entail.
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Re: The Mage Armor Rule

Unread post by Xanador »

But why should anyone even need to begin explaining their dislike of the armor rule? One of the things I liked about Rifts when it came out was the lack of concern about armor for spell casters. The armor rules for D&D were done to balance the MU with other classes, balance in Rifts obviously follows a different philosophy and I'm fine with that. The sudden inclusion of the armor rule was a step backward and I'll continue to ignore it completely.
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Re: The Mage Armor Rule

Unread post by dragonfett »

What about a positive encouragement to not wear armor, like all armor spells provide twice the protection when cast while not b wearing armor or something along those lines.
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Re: The Mage Armor Rule

Unread post by kaid »

flatline wrote:Force fields (tecnological, magical, or otherwise) offer a significant tactical advantage in that the wearer of said force field is effectively "immune" to called shots. The fact that mages, unlike most other classes, have such easy access to force fields (e.g. Armor of Ithan), it's no wonder that mages don't feel the need to wear heavy armor (or any armor at all!).

--flatline



Well you always want some armor to deal with the rare bleed through but yes once a mage gets a couple levels armor of ithan is doing 30 MDC protection for 10 ppe and is a one melee attack to bring it back up. Even at that low level breaking their shielding to actually hit the armor underneath baring the use of heavy weaponry is unlikely to happen so fast that they cannot recast it. If they are on a leyline they have effective unlimited MDC capability as long as they can keep slapping it up faster than it can get torn down.

So while having big burly armor is nifty most mages don't really need it so even if there are no hinderances casting wise why bother with encumbering armor when you don't need it.
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Re: The Mage Armor Rule

Unread post by DhAkael »

dragonfett wrote:What about a positive encouragement to not wear armor, like all armor spells provide twice the protection when cast while not b wearing armor or something along those lines.

Sadly, that would put-to-shame all of Kevin Siembiada's hard work to make his fave Neo-Facist toy soldiers be the be-all end all power in North-Am.

So I just ignore the anti-armour ruling completely as the idiotic nerfing it is. :D
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Re: The Mage Armor Rule

Unread post by kaid »

Honestly there are so many ways around the ruling with things like iron wood armor/hand made stuff from MDC critters/steel tree armor, techno wizard armors/fetishes and what not that I never really had any major need to wear heavy EBA armor.

I find the rule kinda goofy so I have no problem if people just ignore it all together but it is not like it is challanging even to work with it. It is pretty easy and not very expensive to find 70ish MDC organic types of armors just from the hand made stuff not even getting into any of the more fancy stuff. Pretty much should be available anywhere MDC critters roam that locals have to kill. Grab a gas mask and you are ready to roll. Also if you find some nicer fancier armor like TW stuff pretty much any caster but warlocks wind up using their armor up at a MUCH slower rate. So they can afford to buy better armor when they can find it and once they get it the armor lasts much much longer without constant repairs.

Not having to replace/repair their armor constantly is one of the biggest benefits of playing a mage. They wind up over time saving an immense amount of cash not having to deal with combat attrition that any tech class has to deal with.
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Re: The Mage Armor Rule

Unread post by The Beast »

Xanador wrote:But why should anyone even need to begin explaining their dislike of the armor rule? One of the things I liked about Rifts when it came out was the lack of concern about armor for spell casters. The armor rules for D&D were done to balance the MU with other classes, balance in Rifts obviously follows a different philosophy and I'm fine with that. The sudden inclusion of the armor rule was a step backward and I'll continue to ignore it completely.


:ok:
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Re: The Mage Armor Rule

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Cybermancer wrote:Very nicely deconstructed.

I just hope I never have a player read this. It'll be anarchy if mages suddenly lose their irrational fear of heavy armor. Anarchy!

It's amazing how many players are scared off by the fact that penalties exist without analyzing what those penalties actually entail.


:ok:
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Re: The Mage Armor Rule

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Xanador wrote:One of the things I liked about Rifts when it came out was the lack of concern about armor for spell casters.


Agreed!
And they could use guns, instead of being stuck with daggers and darts.
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Re: The Mage Armor Rule

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

I just go with the "mages can wear metal armors cause the metal absorbs the magic" rule that had some reasons behind it, not the "Mages can't where fully enclosed armor cause we said so" rule.
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Re: The Mage Armor Rule

Unread post by kaid »

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:I just go with the "mages can wear metal armors cause the metal absorbs the magic" rule that had some reasons behind it, not the "Mages can't where fully enclosed armor cause we said so" rule.



This is the varient I have seen used the most which I believe is more in line with the RUE rulings on it. It is not the heavyness of the armor that is the issue it is the metal/inorganic content. There are quite a few options for light to heavy armor that does not impact casters at all even if you want to keep the penalties.
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Re: The Mage Armor Rule

Unread post by drewkitty ~..~ »

kaid wrote:
drewkitty ~..~ wrote:I just go with the "mages can wear metal armors cause the metal absorbs the magic" rule that had some reasons behind it, not the "Mages can't where fully enclosed armor cause we said so" rule.



This is the variant I have seen used the most which I believe is more in line with the RUE rulings on it. It is not the heaviness of the armor that is the issue it is the metal/inorganic content. There are quite a few options for light to heavy armor that does not impact casters at all even if you want to keep the penalties.

Actually it is the Old rift rule and is PF rule about mages and armor.
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Re: The Mage Armor Rule

Unread post by SittingBull »

Cybermancer wrote:Very nicely deconstructed.

I just hope I never have a player read this. It'll be anarchy if mages suddenly lose their irrational fear of heavy armor. Anarchy!

It's amazing how many players are scared off by the fact that penalties exist without analyzing what those penalties actually entail.


Note that, taking this knowledge into a game for a character, would be using out of character knowledge technically.
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Re: The Mage Armor Rule

Unread post by SittingBull »

dragonfett wrote:What about a positive encouragement to not wear armor, like all armor spells provide twice the protection when cast while not b wearing armor or something along those lines.


Interesting. Sadly, the only way I can see this working is if your character only had all natural material on them; but then they could wear MD hide armor and have an advantage.
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Re: The Mage Armor Rule

Unread post by Shark_Force »

SittingBull wrote:
Cybermancer wrote:Very nicely deconstructed.

I just hope I never have a player read this. It'll be anarchy if mages suddenly lose their irrational fear of heavy armor. Anarchy!

It's amazing how many players are scared off by the fact that penalties exist without analyzing what those penalties actually entail.


Note that, taking this knowledge into a game for a character, would be using out of character knowledge technically.


not really. it's all quite quantifiable. i mean, it's probably *somewhat* simplified so that you don't spend more time than you already would on it, but really... ultimately, mages are eventually going to notice that heavy armour doesn't interfere in a significant way every time, and that when it does interfere it isn't necessarily going to actually make a difference.

they may not be sitting there looking at a table and saying "oh, so i have a 20% chance of losing 1d4x10% range", but they would certainly have reason to know that one of the ways armour can interfere with magic is by reducing the range of their spells.

that said, i still think it's best to just ignore the whole thing. wasn't in RMB, didn't exist for years, didn't cause any problems, and adding it in hasn't solved any problems. yes, mages can use mostly the same armour as a man-at-arms OCC. the problem is not that mages can wear the better armour, the problem is that too many supposedly combat-oriented OCCs have little to nothing in the way of making them actually superior in combat.

if you could expect the typical man-at-arms OCC to grant +1 attack, +2 to strike/dodge/parry/initiative, +4 to save vs HF, and, say, called shots as a single action instead of taking two attacks... well, i imagine there'd be a lot fewer people who would pick rogue scholar over merc soldier if they wanted to make a combat character.

as it stands, i think men-at-arms get sharpshooter, and the ability to buy WP paired weapons. note that purchased WP paired only works with a single specific combination: eg if you buy WP paired (2 katana + wakizashi), you couldn't use 2 wakizashi (wakizashis?) instead.

the "problem" of mages being superior in combat because there's no difference in skills, ability, and equipment between a mage and a soldier should have been fixed by giving the soldier more skills and abilities, rather than trying to make mages have less equipment (equipment which can trivially be replaced by simply using defensive spells, no less... meaning that mages will still have better defenses anyways).

RUE did a pretty good job with that overall... could have gone a bit farther, imo, but at least it's better... and then unfortunately it brought the silly armour rule in for no reason.
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Re: The Mage Armor Rule

Unread post by SittingBull »

Shark_Force wrote:
SittingBull wrote:
Cybermancer wrote:Very nicely deconstructed.

I just hope I never have a player read this. It'll be anarchy if mages suddenly lose their irrational fear of heavy armor. Anarchy!

It's amazing how many players are scared off by the fact that penalties exist without analyzing what those penalties actually entail.


Note that, taking this knowledge into a game for a character, would be using out of character knowledge technically.


not really. it's all quite quantifiable. i mean, it's probably *somewhat* simplified so that you don't spend more time than you already would on it, but really... ultimately, mages are eventually going to notice that heavy armour doesn't interfere in a significant way every time, and that when it does interfere it isn't necessarily going to actually make a difference.

they may not be sitting there looking at a table and saying "oh, so i have a 20% chance of losing 1d4x10% range", but they would certainly have reason to know that one of the ways armour can interfere with magic is by reducing the range of their spells.

that said, i still think it's best to just ignore the whole thing. wasn't in RMB, didn't exist for years, didn't cause any problems, and adding it in hasn't solved any problems. yes, mages can use mostly the same armour as a man-at-arms OCC. the problem is not that mages can wear the better armour, the problem is that too many supposedly combat-oriented OCCs have little to nothing in the way of making them actually superior in combat.

if you could expect the typical man-at-arms OCC to grant +1 attack, +2 to strike/dodge/parry/initiative, +4 to save vs HF, and, say, called shots as a single action instead of taking two attacks... well, i imagine there'd be a lot fewer people who would pick rogue scholar over merc soldier if they wanted to make a combat character.

as it stands, i think men-at-arms get sharpshooter, and the ability to buy WP paired weapons. note that purchased WP paired only works with a single specific combination: eg if you buy WP paired (2 katana + wakizashi), you couldn't use 2 wakizashi (wakizashis?) instead.

the "problem" of mages being superior in combat because there's no difference in skills, ability, and equipment between a mage and a soldier should have been fixed by giving the soldier more skills and abilities, rather than trying to make mages have less equipment (equipment which can trivially be replaced by simply using defensive spells, no less... meaning that mages will still have better defenses anyways).

RUE did a pretty good job with that overall... could have gone a bit farther, imo, but at least it's better... and then unfortunately it brought the silly armour rule in for no reason.



Well if your world is where mages act different than the books, then yes a mage would hear about it. If, however, its an "official" game then there wouldn't be anyone to hear this from.

Just when I see GMs allow mages to wear heavy armor then they also use the weapons. They stop being mages and become mercs, at least the times I have seen it.
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Re: The Mage Armor Rule

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

SittingBull wrote:Just when I see GMs allow mages to wear heavy armor then they also use the weapons. They stop being mages and become mercs, at least the times I have seen it.


When Gandalf used a sword, did he stop being a mage?
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Re: The Mage Armor Rule

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

SittingBull wrote:
Cybermancer wrote:Very nicely deconstructed.

I just hope I never have a player read this. It'll be anarchy if mages suddenly lose their irrational fear of heavy armor. Anarchy!

It's amazing how many players are scared off by the fact that penalties exist without analyzing what those penalties actually entail.


Note that, taking this knowledge into a game for a character, would be using out of character knowledge technically.


Not really.
Most mages in Rifts start off with armor that would technically interfere with their spellcasting.
So it's not like they wouldn't ever notice, "hey... this ain't so bad!"
It would be kind of hard NOT to notice, if you were actually IN the world, instead of just reading a rule book, and getting scared off by penalties.
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Re: The Mage Armor Rule

Unread post by Shark_Force »

SittingBull wrote:Well if your world is where mages act different than the books, then yes a mage would hear about it. If, however, its an "official" game then there wouldn't be anyone to hear this from.


don't be silly. if there's nobody to hear this from, then how would mages know that wearing heavy armour penalizes spellcasting in the first place? either they know because someone tried it out, or they don't know because nobody has tried it out and they have no particular reason to not try it out for themselves...

either way leads to someone at some point saying "hey, this really isn't that bad".

and after a couple of levels, most mages will probably be at a point where their spells really are legitimately enough protection that they can just use light armour instead, and will decide that any penalty is not worth the lack of benefit. heavy armour is nice when your armour of ithan spell is only good for 10 MDC. when you're throwing around 45 MDC armour of neptune at level 3, or you can cast invulnerability, etc... it loses a lot of it's appeal.
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Re: The Mage Armor Rule

Unread post by Cybermancer »

SittingBull wrote:
Cybermancer wrote:Very nicely deconstructed.

I just hope I never have a player read this. It'll be anarchy if mages suddenly lose their irrational fear of heavy armor. Anarchy!

It's amazing how many players are scared off by the fact that penalties exist without analyzing what those penalties actually entail.


Note that, taking this knowledge into a game for a character, would be using out of character knowledge technically.


No, it wouldn't. It would technically be what the mage would know from practice of their own abilities. Plus, mages talk to each other. Starting with the mage that taught the PC mage. Magic has co-existed beside adavanced technology in Rifts Earth for nearly 300 years. People will have experimented with how they interact and to what degree. These are quantifieable and knowable limitations.

What would be out of character would be assuming that the mage doesn't know how their powers work or how they interact with technology and to what extent. I see this sort of reverse meta-gaming all the time and it bothers me because it's a failure to really put yourself in the character's shoes and think about their environment and how they would react to it.

It's the same line of thought that GM's use to say things like, "Your mage doesn't know how much PPE they have left, it's a meta-construct."

Well, actually they would know. First of all, Potential Psychic Energy is an in-game concept pioneered by Victor Lazlo. Secondly, it is their spell casting stamina and like atheletes, they're going to know how much they can cast before they can't cast anymore. But it goes even farther than that. They can actually determine how much casting power they have in game.

It starts with a question. "Which spell do I cast that drains me the least?" Followed by "How often can I cast that spell before I am out of power?" If they happen to know Lantern Light, then it's a prime candidate but others can work as well.

So they just determined how often they can cast their shortest power spell. Next day they cast a different spell with a different cost and then cast their lowest level until they are drained. Simple addition and subtraction will tell them how much of their power reserve that spell cost them. Rinse and repeat for all your spells. Then do the same for different conditions such as being on a ley line or a nexus.

If I can reason out how to do this, someone who actually practices magic can too. They're going to record this information and they're going to compare it with others. Why? Because experimenting is what people do. If it can be quantified, it will be. It is not out of character knowledge to think that people would do this. It is very much in character for them to do so.

And they've been doing it for nearly 300 years on Rifts Earth alone. Longer in other places.

This applies to figuring out the exact limitiations for casting in armor are. Mages are going to practice it and notice (and record the results). Averages will be determined and they will eventually work out how often they are impaired and by how much. Killer Cyborg has the numbers in front of him in the form of tables but those numbers would eventually be determined in game through trial and error.

All of this is very comparable to professional athletes who have every part of what they do studied and quantified. It is possible to know how far you can run, how fast you can run, how much you can lift, how much you can carry and for how long. All knowable and all studied in real life. It wouldn't be any different for mages.
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Re: The Mage Armor Rule

Unread post by SittingBull »

Hmmm, is that right.
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Re: The Mage Armor Rule

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Good post, Cybermancer.
:ok:
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Re: The Mage Armor Rule

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So noone believes in playing a mage the way the game wants you to play it?
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Re: The Mage Armor Rule

Unread post by SittingBull »

Killer Cyborg wrote:
SittingBull wrote:Just when I see GMs allow mages to wear heavy armor then they also use the weapons. They stop being mages and become mercs, at least the times I have seen it.


When Gandalf used a sword, did he stop being a mage?


Note, in that fight where he was using sword, he would have been killed if not for the hobbit.
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Re: The Mage Armor Rule

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

SittingBull wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
SittingBull wrote:Just when I see GMs allow mages to wear heavy armor then they also use the weapons. They stop being mages and become mercs, at least the times I have seen it.


When Gandalf used a sword, did he stop being a mage?


Note, in that fight where he was using sword, he would have been killed if not for the hobbit.


"The" fight?
Have you read the books?
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Re: The Mage Armor Rule

Unread post by SittingBull »

No, I haven't had the chance to read the books.
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Re: The Mage Armor Rule

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Johnnycat93 wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
SittingBull wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
SittingBull wrote:Just when I see GMs allow mages to wear heavy armor then they also use the weapons. They stop being mages and become mercs, at least the times I have seen it.


When Gandalf used a sword, did he stop being a mage?


Note, in that fight where he was using sword, he would have been killed if not for the hobbit.


"The" fight?
Have you read the books?

Doesn't he waste a bunch of dudes with his sword when he finally shows up at Helms Deep?


I think so, even in the movies.
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Re: The Mage Armor Rule

Unread post by Shark_Force »

Johnnycat93 wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
SittingBull wrote:
Killer Cyborg wrote:
SittingBull wrote:Just when I see GMs allow mages to wear heavy armor then they also use the weapons. They stop being mages and become mercs, at least the times I have seen it.


When Gandalf used a sword, did he stop being a mage?


Note, in that fight where he was using sword, he would have been killed if not for the hobbit.


"The" fight?
Have you read the books?

Doesn't he waste a bunch of dudes with his sword when he finally shows up at Helms Deep?


it's not explicit iirc, but he does draw his sword before charging in. unlike gimli and legolas, however, he doesn't count how many people he killed, so it's not like we have a specific body count.

odds are good that he did, in fact, kill lots of uruk-hai with the sword in that fight. but we don't really know for sure, it's just quite likely.

as to the question of mages, i've never really considered "unable to wear armour" to be a defining characteristic of whether someone is a mage or not. it's a fairly likely characteristic, in that i consider it unlikely for a mage to prefer a 50 pound suit of plate mail, but i wouldn't look at someone who wears armour and say "nope, not a mage". or, to put it another way: the ring-wraiths are all sorcerer-kings, iirc (certainly, the leader is). sauron practically looks like he's *made* of armour in the movies. in the silmarillion, many of the noldor craftsmen who made powerful magical items used weapons and armour that were the equivalent in design to what a warrior would use.

not to mention, in rifts armour is in general a lot lighter and comfortable than in those settings... the heaviest armour in RUE is 24 pounds, and that's an environmental suit. most of them are under 20 pounds, and many of them include padding and climate control which greatly reduces the amount of discomfort caused by armour, not to mention it's much more common to travel by vehicles, and as such having to carry around that weight is much less of a concern.
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Re: The Mage Armor Rule

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"the ring-wraiths are all sorcerer-kings, iirc (certainly, the leader is). sauron practically looks like he's *made* of armour in the movies. in the silmarillion, many of the noldor craftsmen who made powerful magical items used weapons and armour that were the equivalent in design to what a warrior would use."

Those are examples of NPCs though, not PCs. /shrug
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Re: The Mage Armor Rule

Unread post by Killer Cyborg »

Again, the question was, "When Gandalf used his sword, did that make him 'not a wizard?'"
Or when he clobbered people with his staff?
Or, for that matter, when he used a pipe to smoke from, instead of conjuring some kind of energy-pipe to smoke with?

I ask, because some people seem to think that a mage is "somebody who is capable of using magic," and some people seem to think that a mage is "somebody who is incapable of using non-magic."
And I have to say, I think that the latter part is WAY off base.
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Re: The Mage Armor Rule

Unread post by flatline »

SittingBull wrote:"the ring-wraiths are all sorcerer-kings, iirc (certainly, the leader is). sauron practically looks like he's *made* of armour in the movies. in the silmarillion, many of the noldor craftsmen who made powerful magical items used weapons and armour that were the equivalent in design to what a warrior would use."

Those are examples of NPCs though, not PCs. /shrug


I may be alone in this, but unless I'm playing a videogame, I generally expect to use the same rules for PCs and NPCs.

If NPCs don't follow the same rules as the PCs, then I consider that a strike against the system. This is one of the reasons I prefer point based systems over level based systems.

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Re: The Mage Armor Rule

Unread post by Nightmask »

flatline wrote:
SittingBull wrote:"the ring-wraiths are all sorcerer-kings, iirc (certainly, the leader is). sauron practically looks like he's *made* of armour in the movies. in the silmarillion, many of the noldor craftsmen who made powerful magical items used weapons and armour that were the equivalent in design to what a warrior would use."

Those are examples of NPCs though, not PCs. /shrug


I may be alone in this, but unless I'm playing a videogame, I generally expect to use the same rules for PCs and NPCs.

If NPCs don't follow the same rules as the PCs, then I consider that a strike against the system. This is one of the reasons I prefer point based systems over level based systems.

--flatline


Point Buy is just as vulnerable to that as Level-based. In either case the GM can execute his prerogative to add or modify things and make it only available to the NPC and not the PC. If you were using the random tables for the Marvel Super-hero RPG and got Cosmic Awareness you can easily hear 'oh that's banned to PC', or any one of dozens of other powers so that only the GM's toys get to use them.
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Re: The Mage Armor Rule

Unread post by flatline »

Nightmask wrote:
flatline wrote:
SittingBull wrote:"the ring-wraiths are all sorcerer-kings, iirc (certainly, the leader is). sauron practically looks like he's *made* of armour in the movies. in the silmarillion, many of the noldor craftsmen who made powerful magical items used weapons and armour that were the equivalent in design to what a warrior would use."

Those are examples of NPCs though, not PCs. /shrug


I may be alone in this, but unless I'm playing a videogame, I generally expect to use the same rules for PCs and NPCs.

If NPCs don't follow the same rules as the PCs, then I consider that a strike against the system. This is one of the reasons I prefer point based systems over level based systems.

--flatline


Point Buy is just as vulnerable to that as Level-based. In either case the GM can execute his prerogative to add or modify things and make it only available to the NPC and not the PC. If you were using the random tables for the Marvel Super-hero RPG and got Cosmic Awareness you can easily hear 'oh that's banned to PC', or any one of dozens of other powers so that only the GM's toys get to use them.


True, but even if those powers are banned for PCs, at least the rules are clear on how to build the NPCs rather than just having the GM or author "wing it".

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Re: The Mage Armor Rule

Unread post by Shark_Force »

SittingBull wrote:"the ring-wraiths are all sorcerer-kings, iirc (certainly, the leader is). sauron practically looks like he's *made* of armour in the movies. in the silmarillion, many of the noldor craftsmen who made powerful magical items used weapons and armour that were the equivalent in design to what a warrior would use."

Those are examples of NPCs though, not PCs. /shrug


the discussion is not "are they PCs or NPCs", the question is "are they mages or non-mages". what difference does it make if they're PCs or not? and in any case, that's certainly a completely ridiculous point, because ALL the characters in a book that isn't a choose-your-own-adventure or similar are NPCs.

if you look at sauron, do you think "no, he can't be a mage, because he's wearing tons of armour", or do you look at sauron and think "yeah, he's definitely a mage, because he uses magic"? that is the question at hand.

personally, i look at sauron and think to myself "well, he uses magic to control his armies, to create minions by twisting living things into his servants, and to create powerful magic items, and for communication, and for scrying, and for manipulating his enemies... yep, he's a mage, for sure".

certainly, you are entitled to your opinion as to whether or not he is a mage, but for me at least, it's pretty clear that sauron is, in fact, a mage.
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Re: The Mage Armor Rule

Unread post by Cybermancer »

SittingBull wrote:So noone believes in playing a mage the way the game wants you to play it?


The game has no wants. It is not a living being nor even an object. It is a collection of rules and descriptions collected in books.

The game designers may want something but beyond money for product, they're not entitled to anything.

What matters is how players want to play their characters.
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Re: The Mage Armor Rule

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I see I wont be running any games in the chat rooms. So sad...
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Re: The Mage Armor Rule

Unread post by flatline »

SittingBull wrote:I see I wont be running any games in the chat rooms. So sad...


For what it's worth, my mages almost never wear armor. I much prefer to use a light or medium force field that I leave on almost all the the time and can recharge via sub-particle acceleration. Then I summon magical protection when the situation demands it.

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Re: The Mage Armor Rule

Unread post by SittingBull »

flatline wrote:
SittingBull wrote:I see I wont be running any games in the chat rooms. So sad...


For what it's worth, my mages almost never wear armor. I much prefer to use a light or medium force field that I leave on almost all the the time and can recharge via sub-particle acceleration. Then I summon magical protection when the situation demands it.

--flatline


:ok:
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