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Missing the both/Legios option.

Alpha, though its close. I'll just say this, those that can't be hit, can't be beat.

Super Alpha.

I just love the power. Now if only the Beta looked more like the Alpha

If I had to pick between the two, I'd take the Alpha/Legios over the Beta/TLEAD any day... it's the less ugly of the two, and even though it's an undercapable metal coffin intended to dispose of anyone who might become a more capable leader than Rick (meaning EVERYONE) at least I wouldn't feel like an unnecessary addition to the upholstery the way Beta pilots must feel, since their craft go unmanned most of the time.

As much as I like agile dogfighters, the speed and weapons load of the Beta just put it out of reach of lesser fighters. Even against the vaunted Super Valkyrie, the Beta decides when the fight starts and how long it lasts. The beta comes in, launches missiles and flies by you. You don't get to dogfight it, instead you get to watch as it outruns your missiles, takes a big turn and does another run on you. You cna try head on with it, but its able to carry more of the big long and medium ranged missiles than other veritechs, so it can just fire from outside your reach, pull away, circle around and line up another shot.

If you try to run, it catches you. If you try to fight, it steps outside of your ability to fight back and blows you out of the sky. There is no escape there is no victory.

Jefffar wrote:As much as I like agile dogfighters, the speed and weapons load of the Beta just put it out of reach of lesser fighters. Even against the vaunted Super Valkyrie, the Beta decides when the fight starts and how long it lasts. The beta comes in, launches missiles and flies by you. You don't get to dogfight it, instead you get to watch as it outruns your missiles, takes a big turn and does another run on you. You cna try head on with it, but its able to carry more of the big long and medium ranged missiles than other veritechs, so it can just fire from outside your reach, pull away, circle around and line up another shot.

If you try to run, it catches you. If you try to fight, it steps outside of your ability to fight back and blows you out of the sky. There is no escape there is no victory.

If the guy is smart, he can launch missles to intersept the Beta's missles, and once the Beta runs out, he will have to close to close range, were it will come down to Alpha's agility vs. Beta's armor.

Shadow Alpha. All black.

I'm taking the Beta, while I agree with many of the points made about it already I'm really taking it because of the crap use given to it in both the original and RT versions. Not used properly it's a huge waste of resources, so give it a pilot and get to using it right.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:Missing the both/Legios option.

indeed

Shadow Beta. All black.

Neither. I'll pick up a gen. 1 VF. Nothing says "I'm gonna kill you!" (to me) than a good old fahioned VF from the days of Rick, Roy & Adm. Gloval.

I would have to go with the Beta. Really the Beta is more capable than the Alpha. It's one and only real short coming is with regard to game mechanic bonuses (which I'd attribute to it's larger size, not it's agility).

It has only 4 fewer SRMs internally (no mini's), but it makes up for it with wing hard-points, a bomb-bay (should be reconfigurable for other missions), and five sets of medium caliber guns vs the Alpha's 1 (with light lasers). The Beta is transatmospheric and capable of flying to the Moon with an Alpha Fighter.

The Alpha may be quick and nimble, but the Beta has the armor to protect the pilot and such.

Beta preferably one with a second seat for WSO/RIO....

All black. Blacker than the blackest black. So black the light doesn't just fall in, it nose-dives in, as if committing glorious suicide for the honor of making it THAT level of black. So black Hotblack Desiato himself returns from the afterlife and gives it his Official Stamp of Approval. So black, deep shadows are jealous. So black, interstellar space is BLUE in comparison. So black, black-holes shed a proud tear when the ship goes by.

Sorry, got on a bit of a rant.

When I was growing up both of my brothers watched TV show ,

And all I ever heard about was how cool the alpha veritech was

Seriously they're cool but if you consider that the beta allows for interplanetary travel, as well as has far greater armaments, as well as physical protection, I think it's obvious that the beta is the star of the two Mecha

Also in battaloid mode it looks ridiculously imposing,

Imagine facing a beta with a fully stocked payload of missiles.

Beta all the way

Gryphon wrote:The one thing I just thought of though, was that in the original show, the Only place Beta's were guaranteed to come from were the Horizons, right? Garfish and Ikazuchi carriers all carried Alphas alone. To the ratio was weighed really, really heavily in the Alpha's favor. Now? Not so much, since Ikazuchi carriers appear to only use Legios launch bays instead. Where before one in twenty mecha might be a Beta, now its closer to two out of five or so.

I've always used common sense and to me it dictates that every Alpha should have a Beta and vice versa. Sure we have footage of this or that, but who gives a rip when your running a game and want stuff to make sense?

Shorts answer: Yes.
Long answer: Why only have one?

Gryphon wrote:[...] Now? Not so much, since Ikazuchi carriers appear to only use Legios launch bays instead. Where before one in twenty mecha might be a Beta, now its closer to two out of five or so.

They're not combiner launch bays, they're Battlestar Galactica-style incredibly narrow catapult decks... there are still VERY few Betas in evidence among the rank and file. Squadron size is supposedly 24, and only a squadron leader gets the Beta... except in Skull squad, where everyone had one for no clearly explained reason.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Gryphon wrote:[...] Now? Not so much, since Ikazuchi carriers appear to only use Legios launch bays instead. Where before one in twenty mecha might be a Beta, now its closer to two out of five or so.

They're not combiner launch bays, they're Battlestar Galactica-style incredibly narrow catapult decks... there are still VERY few Betas in evidence among the rank and file. Squadron size is supposedly 24, and only a squadron leader gets the Beta... except in Skull squad, where everyone had one for no clearly explained reason.

The fast launch fighter bays (the three on each side of the ship) are only for Bataloid Alphas (see the artwork).

As for launching Legios launch bays....there are none Specific for Legios texted out or depicted for the ship in the 2nd ed. However, the large budging sections amidships are texted to be hanger bay doors for mecha and horizon-t hangers.(both 1st and 2nd ed.)
The 1st ed Sentinels book has deck plans for the Ikazuchi carrier and the SDF-3 (as built).

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:The fast launch fighter bays (the three on each side of the ship) are only for Bataloid Alphas (see the artwork).

I'm sorry, it's my fault for not being precise about this. Gryphon was talking about the version of the Ikazuchi carriers seen only in the Robotech: the Shadow Chronicles "movie". That version of the ship has the bays that were originally rapid-response launch bays holding 24 craft each in battloid/armo-soldier configuration replaced by arrays of ten Battlestar Galactica-style catapult tunnels large enough for one plane at a time. He referred to them as being quick launch bays for the combiner (which he calls a Legios, out of habit), which they're not.

The "bulging sections amidships" are not actually shown as hangars, however... if you look at the art and animation, they're solid hull.

I would not mind having what computer #D art they have,,,,but blown up to so we can see stuff like, the point defence lasers on the capital ships.

Or even an interactive 3D model online. that can be rotated and zoomed.

Gryphon wrote:We really, really need better freaking line art for all the new changes they have made, this is sort of ridiculous really, way back in the 80s such a lack was normal, but not since the mid 90s in the US, and not even that late in freaking Japan!

Back in the 80's there was no reason to have line art for any "changes" being made, because there was nothing resembling any kind of official attempt to organize Robotech with an official continuity. The show was a rush job, a cheap effort to get in on the massive profits Transformers was racking in at the time. Palladium was off in left field, making up the stats as they went using the OSM and freeze-framing the animation. Where we started running into problems was after a bunch of fans started coming up with their own tech specs, more often than not failing to account for spatial reasoning or basic math while trying to rationalize every damn frame of animation... completely ignoring the idea that animation made in the early 1980s might have a few errors in it.

The reason we have such egregious errors is that Harmony Gold lazily rubber-stamped the (sarcastic quotes) "research" done by those fans without making sure it made sense. Then Harmony Gold started trying to change that information to expand things after they established the first official canon.

Skipping to the moral of that particular story, the reason we don't have art for the "changes" is that most of the changes are, in fact, errors. Screwball failures of measurement and failure to acknowledge animation inconsistencies for what they were. The new stuff made for RTSC, we don't have art for because Harmony Gold made the feature so cheaply that there don't appear to have been more than a handful of rough sketches done before they went right to CG modeling.

Gryphon wrote:Harmony Gold needs to hire a freaking artists that has some talent at this and churn out real, official artwork scaled properly to what they expect us to accept as canon...is that to freaking much to ask for jammit!!!

Yeah, it probably is... Harmony Gold's talent pool doesn't really include anyone with that skillset, and with the franchise at death's door since 1986, they really can't afford to hire someone with mechanical design chops to come in and fix things.

I prefer the Alpha. No other reason than I used to have all three of the original transformable Alpha toys from back in the day.

My honest answer would be neither.......

Beta...... If only because I can't have a VF-1 Super.

The Alpha fighter is at best a short range defensive fighter that better not stray far from the heavier guns of the capital ship it is defending. The top speed is poor, the armament of SRMs in a fighter operating is space is a questionable decision, the sensor package is only a tenth as capable. It is more like a Third Reich 1945 last ditch effort than a real attempt at fielding the best fighter than can be.

The Beta has its own shortcomings. The weapons loadout also skews toward close range marking this as another defensive unit. The sensor package is also poor and in space the craft would either have to be vectored onto target be combat controllers aboard capital ships or AWACS / Elint dedicated craft. The top speed is a plus, atleast the Beta can disengage if a fight is going poorly.

In a space superiority battle, the Alpha isn't even second best, squadron vs squadron gnerls should inflict enough damage to remove the Alphas from operation.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Gryphon wrote:We really, really need better freaking line art for all the new changes they have made, this is sort of ridiculous really, way back in the 80s such a lack was normal, but not since the mid 90s in the US, and not even that late in freaking Japan!

Back in the 80's there was no reason to have line art for any "changes" being made, because there was nothing resembling any kind of official attempt to organize Robotech with an official continuity. The show was a rush job, a cheap effort to get in on the massive profits Transformers was racking in at the time. Palladium was off in left field, making up the stats as they went using the OSM and freeze-framing the animation. Where we started running into problems was after a bunch of fans started coming up with their own tech specs, more often than not failing to account for spatial reasoning or basic math while trying to rationalize every damn frame of animation... completely ignoring the idea that animation made in the early 1980s might have a few errors in it.

The reason we have such egregious errors is that Harmony Gold lazily rubber-stamped the (sarcastic quotes) "research" done by those fans without making sure it made sense. Then Harmony Gold started trying to change that information to expand things after they established the first official canon.

Skipping to the moral of that particular story, the reason we don't have art for the "changes" is that most of the changes are, in fact, errors. Screwball failures of measurement and failure to acknowledge animation inconsistencies for what they were. The new stuff made for RTSC, we don't have art for because Harmony Gold made the feature so cheaply that there don't appear to have been more than a handful of rough sketches done before they went right to CG modeling.

Gryphon wrote:Harmony Gold needs to hire a freaking artists that has some talent at this and churn out real, official artwork scaled properly to what they expect us to accept as canon...is that to freaking much to ask for jammit!!!

Yeah, it probably is... Harmony Gold's talent pool doesn't really include anyone with that skillset, and with the franchise at death's door since 1986, they really can't afford to hire someone with mechanical design chops to come in and fix things.

Sad.

I picked the Beta but the Alpha-Beta combo choice would've been nice.

in my current game I have picked the Beta for the following reasons:

1. the beta can carry cargo. basically my character can carry his tools, his spare parts, his supplies such as extra protoculture.... and he is beholden to no one. he does not have to ask some one to borrow space in their truck to carry his stuff. Not to mention that the beta can carry extra people. I can carry up to 6 people in the cargo / bomb bay in an emergency and I have done so once in game all ready....

2. the beta has an extreme speed advantage. them tread boosters are always in his back pocket for escape.

3. the beta has more missles then the alpha when you include the hard points. I currently have my beta configured to be carring the max load of 36 mini missles in addition to the 56 short range missles. that's 24 more missles then the alpha has to fight with. I also have the option of carrying long range and medium range missles instead....whereas the alpha does not have the option as written in the book.

4. The beta has the Arm Shields.... with them in total the beta can take about 3 times as much damage that the alpha can because the alpha cant parry.

5. ALL of the beta's guns are tied into the power systems....they have unlimited ammo. after the missles run out I can still deal out three times the damage that the alpha can... ALL DAY LONG where as the alpha gets 20 of the 5 round bursts and then it be out of ammo until the pc clip gets a recharge.

6. the beta can use it's guns while flying in fusion generator mode which means no protoculture sensing bonuses on the part of the Invid.... where as when the Aplha uses it's EU-13, the PC sensors are giving the invid a nice +2 to +4 to shoot it....which negates the alpha's slightly better dodge bonuses then the beta - kiss that survivability goodbye.

7. the beta has a PS of 50 as opposed to a PS of 40.... so it does 50% more damage in hand to hand if it ever comes to that (which it should not)