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When I speak with people and they ask me what is my favorite pastime , I respond emphatically and passionately that it is the Role Playing game Rifts.

I know I'm super passionate about it but my love alone cannot sustain a campaign or continue the Rifts franchise, what we need is other gamers.

how do we as role players and palladium gamers attract new players to play the game we love, Rifts

I recently joined a new role playing group and they collectively lamented about their difficulties finding new players

It got me to thinking about how we can help other people share in our favorite past time and get them excited about rifts as we are

Should we target younger players, should we go after people who play RPG video games, should we start courting more women to play?

In your opinion how do we keep the game of rifts growing and build life long fans?

SmilingJack wrote:When I speak with people and they ask me what is my favorite pastime , I respond emphatically and passionately that it is the Role Playing game Rifts.

I know I'm super passionate about it but my love alone cannot sustain a campaign or continue the Rifts franchise, what we need is other gamers.

how do we as role players and palladium gamers attract new players to play the game we love, Rifts

I recently joined a new role playing group and they collectively lamented about their difficulties finding new players

It got me to thinking about how we can help other people share in our favorite past time and get them excited about rifts as we are

Should we target younger players, should we go after people who play RPG video games, should we start courting more women to play?

In your opinion how do we keep the game of rifts growing and build life long fans?

Yes.

First off, I would say a larger official presence on Google+, especially in the communities. The one Rifts community that I could find on Google+ doesn't seem to be run by anyone from PB (although I could be wrong). Perhaps holding weekly (or hell I'd settle for monthly) On Air (live and recorded strait to YouTube) Hangouts talking about different things about the settings and/or rules.

I was at a gaming store recently where they had a large Rifts selection. A guy strolled in and inquired about Rifts. The staff guy turned to him, scrunched up his face and said: "I heard the system's wonky." He then proceeded to steer the guy towards some other game titles.

I kid thee naught.

I approached the potential customer later and told him how great the game was.

With ease of introduction in mind, make a boardgame version (or a boardgame like introductory version) of Rifts.

I think they were going to make a Rifts lite at some point, but that seems to have gone quiet.

I guess this wont make sense for those who think it's eminently easy to just buy the book and get into it.

Noon wrote:With ease of introduction in mind, make a boardgame version (or a boardgame like introductory version) of Rifts.

A Facebook game, or free Tower Defense game, or other such attention-getter would also work.

Offical quick start rules in a free pdf.
A game that doesnt suck on a major platform. Or two.
Palladium goes and does some cons, the big ones not just near the home office.
A character generator, making a char takes forever on palladium.
Roll20 tile set.
Ads on rpg sites.
Ads in comic books again.
Ads......anywhere

Zamion138 wrote:Offical quick start rules in a free pdf.
A game that doesnt suck on a major platform. Or two. (re; NOT an N-gage)
Palladium goes and does some cons, the big ones not just near the home office.
A character generator, making a char takes forever on palladium.
Roll20 tile set.
Ads on rpg sites.
Ads in comic books again.
Ads......anywhere

THIS!
-tap tap- you listening Kevin?

GM it.

DhAkael wrote:

Zamion138 wrote:Offical quick start rules in a free pdf.
A game that doesnt suck on a major platform. Or two. (re; NOT an N-gage)
Palladium goes and does some cons, the big ones not just near the home office.
A character generator, making a char takes forever on palladium.
Roll20 tile set.
Ads on rpg sites.
Ads in comic books again.
Ads......anywhere

THIS!
-tap tap- you listening Kevin?

Serriusly i can make a dnd char in like 10 minutes. Same with pathfinder vampire, pretty much everything else but shadowrun.....but shadowrun has some crazy sweet char generation programs.

I wish Hero Lab had a contract with Palladium.

GM it and invite new people to play.

Provide some pre-generated characters so that new players aren't scared away by the character generation process.

I knew a GM that made a character sheet per OCC with all possible skill selections already listed with the base skill percentage already calculated. To choose a skill, you simply highlighted the skill and added your IQ bonus. He had them listed in sections like "OCC Related (highlight X skills)" and "Secondary (highlight Y skills)". Made character generation WAY faster. He also listed all bonuses for each skill right there on the sheet and when you were done highlighting, you'd give him your sheet, he'd calculate your bonuses, and hand your sheet back, ready to go.

He also had standard gear packages already defined for each OCC based on location and any affiliation. You simply picked the package that you liked best or best fit your back story. If you wanted to adjust the gear package, you'd propose a change (say, swapping one E-rifle for another) and he'd rule on the spot.

As long as you weren't indecisive about picking spells or psionics, you could whip up a PC in 10 minutes or so.

Palladium should totally publish a book or rifter with "fast start" character sheets like this.

--flatline

Little Snuzzles wrote:

Subjugator wrote:GM it.

+1

Everyone wants to play Rifts, noone wants to GM Rifts... I think that might be indicative of something

flatline wrote:GM it and invite new people to play.

Provide some pre-generated characters so that new players aren't scared away by the character generation process.

I knew a GM that made a character sheet per OCC with all possible skill selections already listed with the base skill percentage already calculated. To choose a skill, you simply highlighted the skill and added your IQ bonus. He had them listed in sections like "OCC Related (highlight X skills)" and "Secondary (highlight Y skills)". Made character generation WAY faster. He also listed all bonuses for each skill right there on the sheet and when you were done highlighting, you'd give him your sheet, he'd calculate your bonuses, and hand your sheet back, ready to go.

He also had standard gear packages already defined for each OCC based on location and any affiliation. You simply picked the package that you liked best or best fit your back story. If you wanted to adjust the gear package, you'd propose a change (say, swapping one E-rifle for another) and he'd rule on the spot.

As long as you weren't indecisive about picking spells or psionics, you could whip up a PC in 10 minutes or so.

Palladium should totally publish a book or rifter with "fast start" character sheets like this.

--flatline

Do you realize just how massive of a book that would be? Just think of all the different OCC's and RCC's. Even if you did one class per page, that would still be a massive book. It's not so much choosing the skills that take me the most amount of time but rather looking up the skills.

I find the best way to get new players is to target people who have never played an RPG but have always wanted to try it.

This way you skip any preconceived notions or biases they may have towards PB/Rifts (either real grievances or imagined ones). Also they have nothing else to compare it to and will either love the game, or hate it, based on the ACTUAL game and not just on what they've heard from other people.

I find it hard to get people to switch from one system to another if they are a long time player because obviously they love the system they are playing and think it's the best and they feel more comfortable playing a system they are familiar with versus unfamiliar territory.

dragonfett wrote:

flatline wrote:GM it and invite new people to play.

Provide some pre-generated characters so that new players aren't scared away by the character generation process.

I knew a GM that made a character sheet per OCC with all possible skill selections already listed with the base skill percentage already calculated. To choose a skill, you simply highlighted the skill and added your IQ bonus. He had them listed in sections like "OCC Related (highlight X skills)" and "Secondary (highlight Y skills)". Made character generation WAY faster. He also listed all bonuses for each skill right there on the sheet and when you were done highlighting, you'd give him your sheet, he'd calculate your bonuses, and hand your sheet back, ready to go.

He also had standard gear packages already defined for each OCC based on location and any affiliation. You simply picked the package that you liked best or best fit your back story. If you wanted to adjust the gear package, you'd propose a change (say, swapping one E-rifle for another) and he'd rule on the spot.

As long as you weren't indecisive about picking spells or psionics, you could whip up a PC in 10 minutes or so.

Palladium should totally publish a book or rifter with "fast start" character sheets like this.

--flatline

Do you realize just how massive of a book that would be? Just think of all the different OCC's and RCC's. Even if you did one class per page, that would still be a massive book. It's not so much choosing the skills that take me the most amount of time but rather looking up the skills.

Make them available on-line. No need for dead tree publishing.

--flatline

I think step one is to stop complaining about the system.

glitterboy2098 wrote:I think step one is to stop complaining about the system.

I will continue to praise the setting. That's that keeps me buying books.

However, I will also continue to criticize the weaknesses of the system. Agreeing to ignore sub-optimal ideas does not constitute nor promote progress.

If a new or potential player asks me what I think about the system, I'll be perfectly honest with them.

--flatline

I got my group hooked by introducing them to Dead Reign, this friday will be the second game session of Rifts. They seem to enjoy it though

Snake Eyes wrote:I got my group hooked by introducing them to Dead Reign, this friday will be the second game session of Rifts. They seem to enjoy it though

Dead Reign, with some small modifications, is an excellent introduction to Palladium games.

--flatline

I'm not going to BS people about the system being great. The rules have distinct organizational flaws and significant omissions. Its fluidity and diversity save it though. I don't sugar-coat anything when I demo the game and I point out both its strengths and weaknesses. I've still managed to sell some books.

I do what I can in my area but really I am only one person and word of mouth has more sway than what any one person can do sadly......

I have a group of about 10 people i can pool for RPGs, i'm pretty fortunate that way. We can all agree on DnD, L5R, 40k etc. However, only the ones who played Palladium in their teen or younger years will play it now. I've tried to get the other guys on board but all they have is complaints about the system and book layout. I've literally had people tell me "Wow that's stupid" when they look at RUE, and that's the most recent organization of the rules that I have.

I love Rifts, but i can't get more than two people to really want to play, and they have completely different schedules.

flatline wrote:

Snake Eyes wrote:I got my group hooked by introducing them to Dead Reign, this friday will be the second game session of Rifts. They seem to enjoy it though

Dead Reign, with some small modifications, is an excellent introduction to Palladium games.

--flatline

Yup

I enjoy Rifts and I run a campaign that is over a year old now. My girlfriend is die-hard gamer but she doesn't care for the Palladium system too much. She is younger than me (she's 27) and started gaming a few years ago, starting with D&D 4e. She has since run away screaming from 4e and has moved on to Pathfinder. She's also played many other games at one point or another.

Her opinion is that Palladium needs to target a younger audience, and I tend to agree. Yes, the system is different (I won't call it "wonky" or "broken", as it's as flexible as you want it to be). When someone is promoting Rifts, they should be selling the Rifts universe, which is undeniably rich and extensive, rather than focusing on a system they may or may not like.

I took my girlfriend to the 2012 Palladium Open House and she had a great time... but I believe she was one of the youngest attendees there- and she's in her late 20s. I suppose there are practical reasons why a teen/college student couldn't make the open house, but I don't think there were ANY there.

Anyways, just my two cents.

dpenwood wrote:I enjoy Rifts and I run a campaign that is over a year old now. My girlfriend is die-hard gamer but she doesn't care for the Palladium system too much. She is younger than me (she's 27) and started gaming a few years ago, starting with D&D 4e. She has since run away screaming from 4e and has moved on to Pathfinder. She's also played many other games at one point or another.

Her opinion is that Palladium needs to target a younger audience, and I tend to agree. Yes, the system is different (I won't call it "wonky" or "broken", as it's as flexible as you want it to be). When someone is promoting Rifts, they should be selling the Rifts universe, which is undeniably rich and extensive, rather than focusing on a system they may or may not like.

I took my girlfriend to the 2012 Palladium Open House and she had a great time... but I believe she was one of the youngest attendees there- and she's in her late 20s. I suppose there are practical reasons why a teen/college student couldn't make the open house, but I don't think there were ANY there.

Anyways, just my two cents.

Very good point. Young folks get the word out.

flatline wrote:
I will continue to praise the setting. That's that keeps me buying books.

However, I will also continue to criticize the weaknesses of the system. Agreeing to ignore sub-optimal ideas does not constitute nor promote progress.

If a new or potential player asks me what I think about the system, I'll be perfectly honest with them.

--flatline

+1

My group used to like Rifts, but since i made a game of my own we moved over to that game instead. However, I usually have a few stand alone scenarios that I use on various conventions and one of the two local game stores in town, but it is hard to find players here as the game has a bad reputation, but i usually get a small scenario going once per month in the store. This despite my rather negative posts at times here on the forum.


Regarding SmilingJack's questions:

Should we target younger players, should we go after people who play RPG video games, should we start courting more women to play?

I think it does not matter, to be honest, but I think it is hard to get players that play a lot of video RPGs and MMOs to care for Rifts.
I am a girl and the only reason that I started to play Rifts was that I found a group that played it, but their munchkinism and power gaming scared me away from the game for two years or so. It took me that long to return and actually want to see if I could GM it differently.

But most groups here that know of Rifts are hard to get to play it.

In your opinion how do we keep the game of rifts growing and build life long fans?

The system needs fixed and advertised. The system has a negative reputation and to some extent has earned it. Until basic issues are resolved, it will not be taken seriously. Also, people are lazy as heck, so a character creation program would help. GURPS has a kick butt one and this game should too.

MaxxSterling wrote:The system needs fixed and advertised. ...snip

I agree with Maxx's statement, in that not ONLY Rifts be promoted.

Little Snuzzles wrote:

Athos wrote:Everyone wants to play Rifts, noone wants to GM Rifts... I think that might be indicative of something

It's easier than running Rolemaster, I can tell you that.

Rolemaster does take a long time to generate characters. but at least if you ask, how do I.... there is a canon answer.

Little Snuzzles wrote:

Athos wrote:Everyone wants to play Rifts, noone wants to GM Rifts... I think that might be indicative of something

It's easier than running Rolemaster, I can tell you that.

It is. Rolemaster was one of the first games I ever played. I have no intention of ever trying it again (I think I shipped my Rolemaster books to my sister...I think she and her husband play it occasionally with one of their groups).

--flatline

Greyaxe wrote:

Little Snuzzles wrote:

Athos wrote:Everyone wants to play Rifts, noone wants to GM Rifts... I think that might be indicative of something

It's easier than running Rolemaster, I can tell you that.

Rolemaster does take a long time to generate characters. but at least if you ask, how do I.... there is a canon answer.

but you will need a good grasp of advanced mathematics and a graphing calculator to arrive at the answer at times... (bonus to damage is determined based upon your mass through a formula that requires you know the density of 1 cubic foot of flesh for your race.)

Damian Magecraft wrote:

Greyaxe wrote:

Little Snuzzles wrote:

Athos wrote:Everyone wants to play Rifts, noone wants to GM Rifts... I think that might be indicative of something

It's easier than running Rolemaster, I can tell you that.

Rolemaster does take a long time to generate characters. but at least if you ask, how do I.... there is a canon answer.

but you will need a good grasp of advanced mathematics and a graphing calculator to arrive at the answer at times... (bonus to damage is determined based upon your mass through a formula that requires you know the density of 1 cubic foot of flesh for your race.)

hmm...I don't even remember that. I just remember how I hated the fact that you couldn't play the game without all those charts from Arms and Claw Law (or whatever it was called). Looking stuff up in a book shouldn't be an indispensable part of the game.

--flatline

flatline wrote:hmm...I don't even remember that. I just remember how I hated the fact that you couldn't play the game without all those charts from Arms and Claw Law (or whatever it was called). Looking stuff up in a book shouldn't be an indispensable part of the game.

--flatline

This is why I absolutely LOVE the Savage Worlds/Deadlands game system. It covers everything *AND* doesn't require constant lookups...and it's fast as hell.

/Sub

notafraid2die wrote:You get to improvise a lot more with Palladium than you do other systems.

I don't see what you mean here. I have played in a couple of other systems that have had MORE improvisation and original content than most if not ALL of the Palladium worlds I've played in.

Ex. Pathfinder. We used pretty much all the rules but the GM had built up his own world populated with his own NPCs and ultimate powerful beings. Also it seems to have MORE customization of characters than I have seen in Rifts, although I'm certain it just looks this way due to how it's written. (Templates, Power choices, Class options, etc. etc.)

Ex.2 Mekton Zeta. The book is written with a setting, however it is written in such a way that it gives a GM all of the tools needed to both create and explain the system within their own world. I've seen this work in both a Virtual Reality setting, as well as a Post Apocalyptic setting.

The ability to Improv. doesn't come in a book. It comes with a willingness to augment a system or create your own world. This is possible with a lot of systems. Having a set of broken rules that I have to homebrew to fix repeatedly isn't "better" for improv. That's like buying a 500 piece jig-saw puzzle that says on the box "some pieces missing, just throw in whatever...it's awesome."

notafraid2die wrote:A streamlining of the system would be great. But let's be real; isn't that half the reason why we love Palladium? If a rule doesn't work: fix it. Or come up with your own. You get to improvise a lot more with Palladium than you do other systems. Well, that's one of the reasons I like it.

Kevin has a gift for creating settings that I want to play in. The fact that the system requires significant house-rules does not contribute to my enjoyment of the game.

Rules are like Operating Systems. They should give me the framework I need to do what I want and should otherwise stay out of my way as much as possible.

--flatline

notafraid2die wrote:A streamlining of the system would be great. But let's be real; isn't that half the reason why we love Palladium? If a rule doesn't work: fix it. Or come up with your own. You get to improvise a lot more with Palladium than you do other systems. Well, that's one of the reasons I like it.

Yeah but you can bend the rules on any system thats not unique

jaymz wrote:I do what I can in my area but really I am only one person and word of mouth has more sway than what any one person can do sadly......

what you just wrote is BRilliant

its just like viral videos,it starts from people sharing, and you are right word of mouth is the best Way For something to spread

Keep sharing your love of Rifts, anyone who ends up playing with you will be lucky to have such a intelligent and passionate gamer in their group

notafraid2die wrote:Well, there are those that live by the rules and those that live to bend the rules.

In play that's mostly correct. Some are Rules Lawyers, and others will combine the rules and a cool idea that might go against them.
Basically you end up with : If its not explicitly stated in the rules then it doesn't work. Vs. although the rules say X, and you want Y, I can compromise and say X + Y = Z.

Then there is "forum etiquette by the rules". This is the fact that everyone has their own opinions and personal rules they like. For example Nat. 1 and something terrible happens to you isn't a canon rule (to my knowledge) however a lot of people that I have played with use this. Now, on the boards you aren't supposed to use those in a rules based argument, because they aren't everyone's rules. However, canon is supposed to be universal to everyone, so on a forum such as this canon should be the name of the game when in a debate. In Palladium that just doesn't work because certain rules are written poorly or just simply don't exist, "covered" by GM Discretion. So in some cases, us board posters and players, are trying to discuss, debate, or simply play a scenario that just isn't supported within the rules and that's bad. Don't get me wrong the system IS playable, but it could EASILY be improved upon and made to work a lot easier.

notafraid2die wrote:Palladium is built for those that love to bend the rules.

I can honestly see where you are coming from, but I don't think that statement is very accurate. I can bend the rules within any system. Pretty much all RPGs I've played in I could easily augment, ignore, re-imagine, re-interpret, "bend" the rules.

So the question becomes "What makes Palladium 'better' for bending rules?"

The only answer I could come up with is that it doesn't. What it does instead is hand you a set of workable rules, some of them that doesn't make sense or are just a hindrance with no purpose, with about 10+% missing and require an "on the fly" or homebrewed rule in order to fix and make the situation playable for a character.

In my opinion...this doesn't make a system "better" or "pro-" rule bending. It's a workable system with flaws that for whatever reason (despite multiple reprints, new worldbooks, sourcebooks, and R:UE) has yet to be fixed in order to alleviate some of the more glaring flaws, and instead promotes "GM Discretion" as almost a selling point. This isn't any better than any competing system, it's an annoying band-aid that Palladium has refused to remove.

Now, don't get me wrong. I don't hate Rifts, in fact I love it and play it constantly. I love the world, and I can tell the amount of effort that is worked into the setting, the OCCs, the RCCs, all of it. I just don't enjoy the system as much as the rest of the book. It's not like it's broken and unplayable; it's just a tough, rough, clunky system with parts missing or cloudy. It get's you from point A to point B good enough. You'll have fun if you get used to it and give it a chance, but that's not something you should have to ask when trying to get new players.

So how do we get people to play Rifts?
Beyond the obvious (such as ads on sites and media OTHER than Palladium's own things, attending cons, etc.) is definitely improve upon the system. It's just not conducive to new players.


I mean, just thinking back when I was a new player.
1. Character Creation. I mean, a GOOD character took me somewhere between 2-3 hours to complete. I admit, most of that was reading skills, and now that I know what I skills do what the time has cut drastically, but it's still pretty intensive to make a single character.

2.Combat. it took forever, and it took me about a session and a half before I finally got the hang of it. It just felt weird. I love the active defense sort of thing, but having so many actions and such was just odd for me. Plus things like Power Punches that give you obvious bonuses (more damage) or aimed shots (bonuses to hit) could easily be interrupted, which just frustrated the hell out of me at first. Now I just forgo them entirely until my Gm says "and it's out of attacks".

3. Flow of time. I loved the role playing, and the setting, those are well done. But as noted in 2. I don't want 4 hours of combat...I like combat...but not enough for it to go on for 4 hours at a time...I want to accomplish more, and thinking of the flow of time, it took me 4 hours real world to accomplish 1 minute within the system if I was lucky...that's pretty annoying.

4. Magic. Thinking in DnD/Pathfinder terms, the utility magic of mages in Palladium is done. it's fantastic, I love all of it. Defensive capabilities...eeehhh...armor of ithan about the top, with a few others, it's workable and not that bad. Offensive capabilities...they are ok. Some of the good spells actually FOR combat in Rifts take 2 actions which kinda sucks, but generally they are good. I wish there were a few mroe that were Invoccation and not specialty magic. Healing? Next to none. Rifts is much deadlier than the healing spells I have at my disposal. My first mage I made I wanted to have a nice balance of Defense and Healing to support my party...yeah it was bad. So I would like to see some better healing, and honestly more workable offense. I want to play a mage who isn't a "gunman with magic" at some point. I'd rather see a mage with a gun.

5. Psionics. I love Psionics, I wish there were more of them. Healing is done so much better with Regeneration than magic. If I want to play a mage, even when I was just starting I would think "Why don't I just do better with Psionics?" The only problem is they don't seem to have as much utility, however what they have is different than mages, like Machine Ghost and such. So I guess it balances out in a way.

6. Rules. This is my most annoying one...mostly because I always think "Man wouldn't it be cool if I could do X" and then I look and there are no rules or guidelines or anything for it. For Example, Paired Weapons. I always thought you could use it as Two Ancient, OR One Ancient and One One Handed Modern. yeah...no...that would take Paired X and Y, where you specifically define what X and Y are...or "how long to fix a car?" "Well...uhhh...a few...uhhh...days?" I understand that there doesn't need to be rules for EVERYTHING, like "how long would it take me to eat my meal bar?" or "Exactly how big is a single step?" but some things are common occurrences given the current setting, equipment, etc. and should include common occurring rules WITHOUT says "Just let your GM handle it..."

Games can still be hard, difficult, and fun, even with an easier more streamlined and intuitive rule system, where I don't need 3-5 books just to run a single fight, and I'm not even thinking about what if the monster is out of Hades or something, I mean simply just all the rules strewn around and buried withing mountains of material.

Get them while their young and hook them early. Talk to young people when they ask what is that when they see your books and dice. Offer to run a game for them to let them see what it is like.

notafraid2die wrote:

Little Snuzzles wrote:In other words, the rules are not uber-strict and don't have a contingency table for everything. Look at Rolemaster or Hero System, for instance: they have tables coming out their ass. If you want to throw a water balloon at a pregnant nun, there is a table for it.

PB doesn't do it that way: they focus on content over mechanics. This leaves interpretatation of game mechanics up to the GM, and, because every GM is different, that means that two PC's can do the same action in two different games and get different results.

Personally, I'd much rather have that than some factory-produced adventure where all physics and mechanics are accounted for.

Bingo!

For good or ill...
The industry standard has changed.
Some of that standard does need to be adopted.
I am not saying that palladium needs to change its rules.
Nor am I saying they need a rule for every situation.
The RAW is difficult to follow for newcomers to the hobby. It does not match the RAI. Clean the system.
Re-organize and clarify what already exists. If after that there are holes or breaks (that do not exist industry wide) not only will they be easier to spot but faster to fix.

I will say its insain to directly port rifts to anouther system though, try making a rifts char in tristat or one of the other unversial systems and it ends up being crazy. I made a temporal raider in tristat for a friend that" loved the setting hated the rules", my char with out spells was like an 800 point build one of the other players was a cyber ninja guy and he was 250 280ish. The disparagy in power doesnt work nearly as well as it does in palladium.
In rifts its totaly doable and playble with a raider and a combat cyborg or a rouge scholar. In most other systems it doesnt work so well.
Probaly becuase most supernatrual and mystic classes are so front loaded in palladium.
So i dont think the overhual should be massive just mostly clairification. As others have perposed. One megaversal rule book with no fluff and nothing but rules would be a wise and huge boon to the system.

Zamion138 wrote:I will say its insain to directly port rifts to anouther system though, try making a rifts char in tristat or one of the other unversial systems and it ends up being crazy. I made a temporal raider in tristat for a friend that" loved the setting hated the rules", my char with out spells was like an 800 point build one of the other players was a cyber ninja guy and he was 250 280ish. The disparagy in power doesnt work nearly as well as it does in palladium.
In rifts its totaly doable and playble with a raider and a combat cyborg or a rouge scholar. In most other systems it doesnt work so well.
Probaly becuase most supernatrual and mystic classes are so front loaded in palladium.
So i dont think the overhual should be massive just mostly clairification. As others have perposed. One megaversal rule book with no fluff and nothing but rules would be a wise and huge boon to the system.

Yes, using a points system makes it glaringly obvious that balance isn't present in Rifts character classes.

But we already knew that.

I went through this exact exercise using Champions. The points difference between a rogue scholar and an RMB cyberknight wasn't too bad, but the points difference between the cyberknight and a dragon hatchling was pretty significant.

--flatline

cyberdon wrote:I was at a gaming store recently where they had a large Rifts selection. A guy strolled in and inquired about Rifts. The staff guy turned to him, scrunched up his face and said: "I heard the system's wonky." He then proceeded to steer the guy towards some other game titles.

I kid thee naught.

I approached the potential customer later and told him how great the game was.

The guys who run that store are morons, they made an investment in Palladium product and then try not to sell it and get more customers. Complete and utter idiots. I've run into the same thing at my local game store, so I'm not too surprised.

MaxxSterling wrote:The system needs fixed and advertised. The system has a negative reputation and to some extent has earned it. Until basic issues are resolved, it will not be taken seriously. Also, people are lazy as heck, so a character creation program would help. GURPS has a kick butt one and this game should too.

I have too agree with this point. Just look though the posts on the forum. How many threads are here on how to deal with basic game mechanics like Trust/Intimidate and Charm/Impress. For decades fans have been scratching their heads on how too deal with these, and KS has done NOTHING to answer the problem. I understand that a new Rifter has rules in it, but really, a Rifter. It should be in the main book. These are things that people complain about. If you want new customers, you must fix problems that customers keep complaining about.

I've been at this game for 20 years and I'll be at it another 20. Lets get more people into this game. Fix the issues that people have so they are happy to play the game, and so they don't have to defend it so much.

The Palladium system is a little complex,but I like it. I worry more about my Rifts character than a D&D character because the system is such bother,but I make better characters also.

How do we get more people to play, invite more people to play Rifts. Ask people you know who don't play Rifts to join your game. Put a flyer at your local game store, look for people in your area on-line. Sell, sell,sell, sell. Lets get out there and get people playing.

flatline wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:I think step one is to stop complaining about the system.

I will continue to praise the setting. That's that keeps me buying books.

However, I will also continue to criticize the weaknesses of the system. Agreeing to ignore sub-optimal ideas does not constitute nor promote progress.

If a new or potential player asks me what I think about the system, I'll be perfectly honest with them.

--flatline

my point is that the first thing prospective players see is the complaints. complaints abut the rules. complaints about the setting. complaints about the system. complaints about how often the books come out. complaints about which books get put out. complaints that certain books have never been put out. complaints that the company says too much about what it is doing. complaints that it says too little about what it is doing. complaints about the format of the books. complaints complaints complaints...

it really puts people off. because they don't have the experience to determine if those complaints are the result of internet trolls and grognards grumbling over trivialities, or actual legitimate grievances. they can't tell if the complaints are coming from actual fans or proponents of other systems working towards their own biases.

i play battletech. it's rules are a mess in many places. no one complains. i play 40K. the bulk of the fandom actively hates games workshop. no one really complains.

i play palladium. i hear little but complaints.

so we need to stop complaining so much. it is keeping people from playing.

So what you're saying is we should lie to prospective players about the litany of faults Palladium has ?

Sorry, that's not my bag.

1. Relaunch the game with an advanced time line (100 years in the future) and a streamlined rules system.

2. Advertise the hell out of it.

3. Release books when you say you are going to release them.

This is an old topic that comes up every two months or so...

Unfortunately Palladium doesn't have the resources to compete with the bigger game companies that are currently producing role-playing games. The perception of Palladium is a negative one, not just by gamers, but the ENTIRE industry. Until they address this issue Rifts will remain right where it is; a great setting with 30 year old game mechanics, and a company that can't release a book on time if their life depended on it.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:So what you're saying is we should lie to prospective players about the litany of faults Palladium has ?

Sorry, that's not my bag.

at what point did i say lie?

i'm just saying complain less. you can do that without lying.

glitterboy2098 wrote:

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:So what you're saying is we should lie to prospective players about the litany of faults Palladium has ?

Sorry, that's not my bag.

at what point did i say lie?

i'm just saying complain less. you can do that without lying.

for some complaining is like breathing...
its automatic.

Little Snuzzles wrote:

Damian Magecraft wrote:For good or ill...
The industry standard has changed.
Some of that standard does need to be adopted.

Why? Every game is different and RPGs are not a legal/political system. If all game systems were 'standardized' every game would look the same and play the same way.

Also, the 'standardization' argument assumes that all players want such a system, when nothing could be farther from the truth. Everyone is different and each person chooses (or modifies) a system that works for them. Tons of people love PB and have no problem with the system. Or, if they do have a problem, they simply modify the rules to suit their game.

I absolutely cannot stand Shadowrun's mechanics; I hate their system. But so what? Catalyst games has no obligation to me, nor I to them. I simply choose not to play Shadowrun. But I don't put out a call that Shadowrun needs to update their rule because why should they? Those who like it use it; those who don't don't.

I think there's a unfortunate egocentric trend in RPG players to conclude that everyone but them is wrong.

The RAW is difficult to follow for newcomers to the hobby. It does not match the RAI. Clean the system.
Re-organize and clarify what already exists. If after that there are holes or breaks (that do not exist industry wide) not only will they be easier to spot but faster to fix.

It's impossible to please everybody. I think PB is smart for not trying to.

But catalyst listened and now they are reworking the system (again) . They are making decking streamlined and they are droping some of the wireless components, they are making magic quicker. Combat is getting streamlined and the setting is staying the same.
They are supposivly making a conversion rules for old books to be used so people like me do not have to buy our 5th arsenal book if we dont want to.
Im not saying palladium should be catalyst games but they do have two video games in the works a board game a new rules set and source books comming out.

Damian Magecraft wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:So what you're saying is we should lie to prospective players about the litany of faults Palladium has ?

Sorry, that's not my bag.

at what point did i say lie?

i'm just saying complain less. you can do that without lying.

for some complaining is like breathing...
its automatic.

if you have to lie to avoid complaining.. the problem you have isn't in the system or the company, but yourself.

personally i've played and written for rifts for awhile. i don't have house rules. never had a complaint. i find the occasional lack of info on stuff i want to know about annoying from a writer's perspective, but that isn't a complaint. i see that as an opportunity to fill in some blanks.


when people ask me "what do you think about the system", i can tell them the truth. "the system has been in use and evolving for over 20 years. it has a few flaws and a number of places where old rules and new rules interact oddly, but few can agree as to how to fix them. this had caused a lot of division in the fan-base."