Defeating Impervious to Energy and Invulnerability spells

[Hannibal]

Been thinking a bit recently on the difficulties that non-power armor/robots face in defeating mages capable of casting these two energy-weapon defeating spells. Again, not considering PA/Robots being able to carry and utilize a significant amount of kinetic ammo, ie rail guns and missiles, this is geared more toward your regular tech warrior/assassin/special forces, etc.

For all the books published, there really isn't any good kinetic ammunition anywhere close to on-par damage as higher-end laser/plasma rifles. Ramjets and explosive ammo are pretty low damage and wouldn't be effective. That leaves characters dependent on grenades/grenade launchers... there are literally a couple exceptions have a very small payload and still not much bang for the buck. Aside from the 10-round capacity grenade launcher capable of firing 1d6X10MD plasma grenades (found in Merc Ops), what else could work?

I dunno, just soliciting ideas, or thoughts on previous gaming experiences, on how tech characters could best tackle this sort of problem against mages.

[flatline]

Naruni Plasma Weapons

Umm...plasma is energy.

--flatline

[Nekira Sudacne]

A good idea when fighting mages is to start off with a flash-bang. they might like gas masks but those don't protect your eyes, and virtually every spell has a "line of sight" restriction. blind a mage, you take away 90% of their arsenal including the most powerful ones.

and there's no save. so either they have some kind of polarization protection or they're automatically blind.

[flatline]

A good idea when fighting mages is to start off with a flash-bang. they might like gas masks but those don't protect your eyes, and virtually every spell has a "line of sight" restriction. blind a mage, you take away 90% of their arsenal including the most powerful ones.

and there's no save. so either they have some kind of polarization protection or they're automatically blind.

What does polarized sunglasses (or whatever) have to do with it? I fail to see how the polarization of the light emitted by the flash-bang makes any difference at all.

--flatline

[Shark_Force]

big bore weapons. no, the damage isn't great. but if you repeatedly knock your target down, and cost them their actions, well... if you're the only one who gets to act, you're going to win, eventually.

and, of course, you can have allies that are better suited to deal with the problem. psychics, people that have kinetic attacks, other mages, a melee combat specialist, etc.

[Killer Cyborg]

Been thinking a bit recently on the difficulties that non-power armor/robots face in defeating mages capable of casting these two energy-weapon defeating spells. Again, not considering PA/Robots being able to carry and utilize a significant amount of kinetic ammo, ie rail guns and missiles, this is geared more toward your regular tech warrior/assassin/special forces, etc.

For all the books published, there really isn't any good kinetic ammunition anywhere close to on-par damage as higher-end laser/plasma rifles. Ramjets and explosive ammo are pretty low damage and wouldn't be effective. That leaves characters dependent on grenades/grenade launchers... there are literally a couple exceptions have a very small payload and still not much bang for the buck. Aside from the 10-round capacity grenade launcher capable of firing 1d6X10MD plasma grenades (found in Merc Ops), what else could work?

I dunno, just soliciting ideas, or thoughts on previous gaming experiences, on how tech characters could best tackle this sort of problem against mages.

1. Plasma is energy. Plasma grenades will not overcome Impervious to Energy.
2. If you use the original burst/spray rules, there are quite a few grenade launchers that can volley for significant damage. The C-14 Firebreather, for example, could originally fire a volley of 4 grenades, each inflicting 2d6 MD to a 12' area, for a total of 8d6 MD. 8d6 MD is less than 1d6x10, of course, but it's pretty close: average damage of 28, instead of average damage of 35, but it's does damage to an area.
Combined with the CS Micro-Fusion Grenades, though, this would inflict 6d6 per grenade, for a total of 24d6 MD per volley of 4 grenades, with an average damage of 84.
Which may be why they nerfed the ability to fire volleys in later reprints of weapons like the C-14.
3. Exotic weapons.
If you can capture an Arkhon FR-5 Flechette Rifle, it inflicts 6d6 per shot, which isn't bad.
Australian EIPP weapons use plasma to propel a solid slug with tremendous force. The ATA Super 10 Shotgun inflicts 5d6 MD. The ATA Mega-20 Shotgun can inflict 1d4x10 MD per shot (although the Mega-20 can only fire 2 shtos per round, for some reason)
There are rocket weapons in Colombia, and some of them do close to the damage you're looking for. A RR-C40 Rocket Rifle inflicts 1d4x10 MD with a burst of 10 rounds.
In Japan, there is the H-15 Shotgun, which fires rounds that are listed in the RGMG as doing 4d6 MD. There is a double-barreled version as well, which means that you could probably fire both rounds at once for 8d6 MD.
The Megaversal Legion has Inertia weapons that work similarly to rail guns, only more powerfully. The JAR-20 can inflict 1d4x10 MD on a burst of 15 rounds, and the weapon only weighs 6 lbs.
The Naruni has the NE-28R Micro-Missile Wrist Launcher, which can inflict 6d6 MD per micro-missile, and can fire volleys of 2 missiles (12d6 MD total). The NE-800R Missile Assault System is shotgun-sized, but can fire 6d6 MD micro missiles in volleys of up to 4! That's 24d6 MD in one attack. Of course, when these weapons are reprinted, they might get nerfed in the same way the C-14 and other systems have.
A Russian Servo-Harness Rig will let a normal soldier carry a variety of railguns and other heavy weapons.
The Achilles Republic has the Equalizer Combat Shotgun, which can fire armor-piercing explosive rounds that inflict 5d6 MD each. No burst fire for that weapon, but presumably a double-barrel version could be made, or these rounds could be used with another mega-damage double-barreled weapon (like Quebec's Drummer, or the NG-11S), or in a burst-capable shotgun, and inflict 1d6x10 MD per dual blast or short burst.
4. The BigBore weapons in the New West book don't inflict much actual damage, but the automatic knockdown makes them extremely effective, especially in combination with the Horror Factor.
(Personally, I think these weapons are cheesy garbage... but if you don't share this opinion, I'd recommend you use them; they're very effective when used properly).
5. Particle Beams.
Nobody I know plays this way, BUT there is a case that particle beam weapons can damage characters who are Impervious to Energy.
This stems from Heroes Unlimited, where particle beams have been ruled to be partially effective (1/2 damage? 1/3? I forget) to character who have the Invulnerability super power, even though that power makes the Invulnerable character impervious to energy weapons.
While there is no rule or reference to particle beams bypassing magical imperviousness to energy in this same way, the precedent is such that if a GM ruled this way, could not say that they were incorrect in their ruling. It's a vague can of worms and implications that has been opened up by the HU ruling.

[The Beast]

Been thinking a bit recently on the difficulties that non-power armor/robots face in defeating mages capable of casting these two energy-weapon defeating spells. Again, not considering PA/Robots being able to carry and utilize a significant amount of kinetic ammo, ie rail guns and missiles, this is geared more toward your regular tech warrior/assassin/special forces, etc.

For all the books published, there really isn't any good kinetic ammunition anywhere close to on-par damage as higher-end laser/plasma rifles. Ramjets and explosive ammo are pretty low damage and wouldn't be effective. That leaves characters dependent on grenades/grenade launchers... there are literally a couple exceptions have a very small payload and still not much bang for the buck. Aside from the 10-round capacity grenade launcher capable of firing 1d6X10MD plasma grenades (found in Merc Ops), what else could work?

I dunno, just soliciting ideas, or thoughts on previous gaming experiences, on how tech characters could best tackle this sort of problem against mages.

If you're in a mecha unit, stand on them. ItE doesn't do squat against that, and Invulnerability would only protect against the crush damage. It wouldn't help at all with the weight preventing breathing.

[flatline]

Nobody I know plays this way, BUT there is a case that particle beam weapons can damage characters who are Impervious to Energy.
This stems from Heroes Unlimited, where particle beams have been ruled to be partially effective (1/2 damage? 1/3? I forget) to character who have the Invulnerability super power, even though that power makes the Invulnerable character impervious to energy weapons.
While there is no rule or reference to particle beams bypassing magical imperviousness to energy in this same way, the precedent is such that if a GM ruled this way, could not say that they were incorrect in their ruling. It's a vague can of worms and implications that has been opened up by the HU ruling.

I've always thought that particle beams and ion beams should do kinetic damage, so if I ever get around to making comprehensive house rules for weapon types, particle beams will be able to inflict damage against energy impervious targets.

Ion beams, which are a subset of particle beams, will also be able to inflict damage against energy impervious targets, but I haven't decided if I'm going to treat all ion weapons as charged particle beams and all particle beam weapons as neutral particle beams or if "ion" and "particle" will simply indicate the relative power of the particle beam ("ion" weapons being the poor man's particle beam where "particle beam" weapons are the military grade particle beam weapons).

I'll probably do away with plasma beam weapons entirely so that the only plasma weapons in the game will be either explosives or melee weapons. All explosions (at least in an atmosphere) will damage energy impervious targets but fragmentation weapons will do full damage while non-frag explosives will probably do 1/2 or 1/3..

Lasers will come in multiple varieties, depending on the characteristics of the weapon. Some will be simple "heat ray" type weapons which will actually behave more like grenade launchers than beam weapons (transfer a bunch of energy into the target and watch it blow itself and the surrounding area apart). Others will be "blasters" which fire rapid pulses to increase penetration into the target while using less energy. Some will ramp up the beam energy in order to create a tunnel of vacuum through the air (making the beam mostly silent and increasing the range dramatically), others will simply turn on and off, resulting in a loud "crack" and suffering reduced range. Heck, on nicer weapons, these characteristics might be user selectable.

But when you really want something dead, you will always reach for your kinetic weapons (particle beams, projectile weapons, explosives) because that's how you really destroy hardened targets.

Clearly I have lots more thinking to do on all of this before I'm ready to replace all the canon material with my own (and until I start actively playing again, it's unlikely that I'll bother to seriously start working through all this).

Sorry for the long post. It's at least partially on topic.

--flatline

[Killer Cyborg]

About point #2) I presume you are referencing the fusion grenade only as a reason that rapid fire grenade launchers lost that ability, right? Cause fusion is an energy attack…aren’t they?

Honestly, I don't know. I'm pretty sure that fusion can cause explosions, but it can also create energy.
I don't know which is the case in Rifts.

About point #3) Several points here…
- Archon weapons are bad, bad news, regardless of who you are facing. And your chances of getting hold of one are much better than the Megaversal Legion option to boot.

My primary Rifts character, Killer Cyborg, has paired TB-9s.
And loves them.

- Take a look at the ATA 003 “Boom-Boom” Hard Ammo Sidearm…can anyone explain to me why a weapon with a five shot capacity is also being treated as a break action singe shot weapon?

Yeah... that's a weird one!

- The H-15 Shotgun is another strange one. It is clearly intended to be based on a super posed double barrel shotgun model, but is rate of fire standard…what does that even mean?! Is it single shot only? Can you fire both barrels or not?!

ROF Standard varies with weapon type, but is never clarified or defined.
For shotguns with two barrels, I'd say that Standard would be "one shot for x1 damage, 2 shots for x2 damage).

- Naruni tech…so long as you can get ammo, and avoid the C.S., this is another one of those “good answer to almost any question approaches.” Just don’t default on any loans anytime soon!
One question though, are micro missiles, HE, Frag, AP/HEAT, or Plasma? (My wave 2 book is buried at the moment.)

Armor Piercing Only.
Which, I suppose, means that it benefits from the RUE rules for crits with armor piercing missiles.

- While you are on the subject of Russian gear, the first four pages or so of their stuff is ALL ballistic weapons, railguns, razor disk launchers, grapeshot cannons, and mini missile launchers. This stuff if all golden for countering anti-energy magic. Some (O.K., most) of it is obviously a bit too heavy for unaugmented humans, but they have a 38 pound light railgun that deals 3D6 per 10 rounds out to a range of 3,000’! That’s pretty nasty, and all you have to do is slap on a bipod and an aim point sight and you are good to go!

Yeah... I skimmed the section, and said, "screw it! I'll just refer him to the gear that'll let normal soldiers lift and use all these guns, instead of sorting through them or listing them all!"

Lastly, I didn’t see it mentioned, though I might have missed it. Tech Arrow Heads. HE Heavy, Gas, Smoke, Flare, and if it exists in your game, Vibro heads. These would all work, are regularly available, and used in a cross bow instead of a bow, require very little real skill to use at shorter ranges.

I was mostly sticking to straight damage stuff. The Naut-Yll also have a vibro-mini-harpoon gun that'll let you poison the target if they're an MDC creature (though it doesn't work on most supernatural creatures).

Lastly, SDC rocket launchers. Seriously, keep dumping an RPG into the sucker every time he gets back to his feet, and you will frustrate the crap out of him! And it’sa cheap by comparison too!

Definitely!
But he was asking for stuff more in the range of the high-end laser rifle damage, and that kind of thing can't really compete.

[dragonfett]

- Any type of explosive ordinace is good: mini-missiles, grenades, etc.

- Poison is rarely used anymore, but it works great. A arrow, bolt, or even a throwing knife coating with neurotoxic poison is going to hurt a mage, maybe even kill them.

- They may be impervious to energy, but their environment is not. Shoot in front of them or under the feet to knock them down and/or stun them. Also, if they are in a structure, blow it to bits and colapse it on their head. If they're on a cliff, blast the dirt at their feet and make them fall over the side. Etc.

- Play a Yoko Ono song.

- Close with them and beat them unconscious.

- Throw something heavy at them like a concrete block, wagon wheel, piano, another player, etc.

- Burst-fire with a machine gun/rail gun.

- Use gas, smoke, or dust to blind & choke them.

- Got a giant robot? Stomp on them and pin them down.

You, good sir, are downright DIABOLICAL, and I LIKE it!

As to the op, get a big pistol or rifle (like a Desert Eagle .50 cal), get some Ramjet rounds, and take pot shots at him. Better yet, outfit a ragtag group of 20 or so with the same, and have all of them aim for the mage. That will average out to 12d4 MD (or roughly 30 MD) per action. Wellington's Ramjet rounds are great for when you have a large force armed with conventional (i.e. not MD) weapon.

[Alrik Vas]

Headlock takes care of most mages. Noogies are optional.

Really there's more to add, but the other guys already gave great suggestions.

[Eashamahel]

Triax Pump weapons

Surprised no one came back to this. Triax pump weapons are great, and they are available fairly readily in North America, not unreasonable for anyone to start with one or acquire one, and do solid damage. The rifle and pistol do the same damage, and a 4D6 MD pistol is a pretty darned reasonable weapon, with an 800ft range it's solid overall with 5 shots and a speed loaded full capacity for 1 attack. It's price comes down significantly by the time CS War Campaign occurs as well, something like 3000cr cheaper.

[Eashamahel]

Triax Pump weapons

Surprised no one came back to this. Triax pump weapons are great, and they are available fairly readily in North America, not unreasonable for anyone to start with one or acquire one, and do solid damage. The rifle and pistol do the same damage, and a 4D6 MD pistol is a pretty darned reasonable weapon, with an 800ft range it's solid overall with 5 shots and a speed loaded full capacity for 1 attack. It's price comes down significantly by the time CS War Campaign occurs as well, something like 3000cr cheaper.

I've actually always wanted to try and get an automatic version converted/made for me in a game, like an automatic combat shotgun.

[Killer Cyborg]

The specific round isn't in the RUE, but it is listed in the Bionics book still at 300-500 credits a round. Expensive, yes, but that is largely economies of scale really, these are specialists rounds for this one system. If their were general manufactured rounds from .22 on up, the overall cost would likely drop quite a bit really. Cheap automatic .22 caliber sub-machine guns firing MDC rounds would fairly rapidly end up being standard issue as a reserve weapon. Folding SMGs, compact SMGs, sud-machine pistols, that sort of thing. It wouldn't be a lot of damage for each user.

For all we know, the rounds for the Bionic finger-gun is a standard .22 round, capable of being used in any weapon.
I'd say that the reason why we can't get them much cheaper is because we don't have the technology, not because there's not enough demand to mass-produce them.
1d4 MD from a mass that small.

But let's take a look:
An explosive .22 round that does 1d4 MD is listed as costing CR 500 in the RMB, dropped down to CR 300-500 in the Bionics Sourcebook. CR 300 could already BE the price for mass-produced, cheaper rounds.
An explosive shotgun slug (presumably 12 gauge) inflicts 2d6 MD (frag), though, and costs CR 130 (RGMG 112).
An explosive plasma shotgun shell inflicts 3d6 MD, and costs CR 170. (RGMG 112).
A rifle grenade inflicts 2d6 MD, and costs CR 550 each. (RGMG 112).

Okay, at this point, things are starting to look a bit silly.
Comparing the .22 round to the shotgun frag round, I can wrap my mind around the price difference by assuming that the explosives required to pack 1/3 of the shotgun shell's power into 1/20th of its mass.*.
So it makes sense, until we get to the rifle grenade compared to the shotgun shell.
Yes, the grenade affects a 20' diameter area, and the shotgun shell only affects a 10' radius area... but their damage is exactly the same. Unless you're fighting swarming masses of enemies, you'd be better off having a shotgun mounted under your rifle instead of a grenade launcher, saving you CR 420 per shot!

The Wellington explosive rounds do a lot less damage than any of the above, but they're also a LOT cheaper. They do x3 damage, which is rarely MD, but they only cost CR 2-4 for a pistol bullet, CR 4-7 for a rifle cartridge, or CR 6-10 for a heavy machine gun cartridge.
The low cost makes these make more sense.
A .22 round that does 6d6 SDC (1d4 MD on a burst) would only cost CR 3 (CR 9 per burst) on average.
A 7.56mm round that does 12d6 MD (1d6 MD on a burst) would only cost CR 5 per shot (CR 15 per burst) on average.
A .50 BMG round that does 21d6 SDC (2d6 MD on a burst of 20) would only cost CR 8 per shot (CR 160 per burst) on average.

Looking at the NG explosives (RGMG 158-159), the cost of those 1d4 MD .22 rounds still makes sense, I think.
The most powerful explosive that they sell is the NG 6 Plastique, which inflicts 1d6 MD per ounce, and costs CR 60 per ounce. A 30 grain bullet would be .6x ounces, just over half an ounce... but it does 2/3 of the damage. So the explosives in the .22 round are more powerful than the best explosive that Northern Gun has for sale.

*A .22 round is about 30 grains, a shotgun slug is around 383 grains.

A short burst would deal...hmm...umm...is the burst damage for weapons always listed with the weapon now? Because I can't seem to find the multiplier for bursts any longer.

There are no official standard burst damages or multipliers as of RUE: it's all done by weapon type.
But the general rule seems to be that a short burst is 3 rounds, and inflicts x2 damage.
A long burst does x3 damage, but takes up 2 attacks, so really isn't worth it.
So if you're firing the .22 rounds, that would inflict 2d4 MD, and cost CR 600+
If you're firing a short burst of frag rounds from a 12 gauge, that would inflict 3d6 MD to a 20' area (assuming that a short burst would count the same as a dual blast, in the case of shotguns), and that would cost you CR 390.

[Shark_Force]

the bionic finger round may simply be packed with a lot more propellant than usual. after all, it's presumably being used by someone bionic, which means they'll have more mass to absorb the recoil with...

[Killer Cyborg]

I read it again, because I wanted to check it twice to be sure. Interestingly enough, it infers that it uses a .22 shell for SDC purposes, but a .22 "pellet" (Huh?) for that 1D4 MDC attack. I don't get that one at all really.

My point about it though it that it does appear to be a specialists weapon ammunition type, but if you make a .22 caliber automatic "pellet" launcher (whatever that ends up meaning), then ammo requirements would go up beyond a single Black Market cyber weapon requirement, and so production would also go up, everyone with a stake in producing solid slug MDC weapons would get in on the show for various reasons. Once NG, GAW, Wellington, the Black Market, and maybe even Triax of the C.S. were producing the stuff, the cost would plummet, since its "only" a shortish ranged 1D4 MDC round.

If it uses a normal .22 round for SDC damage, then whatever it uses for MD would be compatible.
I kind of assume that they use the word "pellet" just to indicate that it's not exactly a bullet, but rather just a tiny ball of explosives.

Either way, I wouldn't charge nearly as much as a somewhat longer ranged APRJ round doing several times the damage to somewhat longer ranges here.

Ramjet rounds just seem to be the superior technology when compared to explosives: more damage for less money.

[kaid]

big bore weapons. no, the damage isn't great. but if you repeatedly knock your target down, and cost them their actions, well... if you're the only one who gets to act, you're going to win, eventually.

and, of course, you can have allies that are better suited to deal with the problem. psychics, people that have kinetic attacks, other mages, a melee combat specialist, etc.

Hehe yup there are reasons it is good to have at least one kinetic weapon like a big bore. The big bores have the advantage of the knock down as well. If you can keep knocking somebody down it is a lot easier for somebody to jump on them and introduce them to mr vibro blade.

All my characters always pick at least one kinetic weapon. There are a lot of things immune to fire so plasma has some issues there is fair amount of things immune/resistant to lasers but very few things are hardened to kinetic energy weapons.

Now these are not likely to be your bread and butter weapon just due to ammo limitations but it is nice to have at least a bit of variety of damage types. Some projectile weapons can also use specialty loads like silver or wood flechette rounds which are good against various supernatural critters.

[kaid]

We had a GM (same one that felt ALL lasers were all capable of full bursts using the machine gun rates of fire...I once had two crew an four passengers on a Spider Skill walker hose me down for 2D4x20 damage...each...) that treated standard as single shot, short burst, long burst, full burst, regardless of the sense of it.

Tied to the magazine percentages equal damage system, that meant that a full burst form a TX-16 used all 16 rounds and dealt 3D6x10 damage...with a pump action weapon...yes. You will not NO ONE on the players side of the screen ever bought into this malarkey, not even the munchkin in the group.

The flip side of this is that the TX-5 ALSO dealt 4D6x10 damage with its five round (still pump action) magazine.

For a long time I had a lot of trouble treating this perfectly fine weapon concept seriously. (Actually, I still think these things need to knock people the hit off their feet like a Big Bore round, and that they have way, way, too much range...but that's me I guess.)

Stuff like this why I am glad things went the RUE way. The old rules for full bursts made the game work very oddly. Basically any hand gun likely did way more damage than any power armor/robot could do. The game is deadly enough as is without getting into silly land.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

The TX-17 assault rifle seems to fit the bill here; fires bursts for rail-gun like damage.

[Chronicle]

Choke em
Drown em
Shoot them out the airlock

Impervious or invulnerable can still be choked out

[Shark_Force]

Choke em
Drown em
Shoot them out the airlock

Impervious or invulnerable can still be choked out

there's a spell to deal with that, too

[MurderCityDisciple]

Choke em
Drown em
Shoot them out the airlock

Impervious or invulnerable can still be choked out

If you can't move your arms or breathe then you can't cast spells.

Bum rushing is a good tactic vs. impervy or invulney enchanted antagonists.
Let the brawny types do the tanking.

The way I run Rifts combat it's not static 'I hit you...you hit me'.

Nope there's jumping, leaping, ducking, dodging, running up and laying fist to flesh.

Mages can dish it out, but often they can't take it.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Mages can dish it out, but often they can't take it.

You're not looking at the same spell list i am, then.

[Galroth]

Mages can dish it out, but often they can't take it.

You're not looking at the same spell list i am, then.

Yep, it just depends on what spells the mage has and whether or not they can pick the field of battle or not. Ley Line Phantom in combination with Carpet of Adhesion or Magic Net are pretty much a death knell for an entirely tech based character (in a one on one situation at least). Also magic users and psychics definitely get more out of leveling than tech characters get. A 5th level Ley Line Walker can pull medium MDC armor out of thin air for a measly 10 ppe and one attack.

[MurderCityDisciple]

Mages can dish it out, but often they can't take it.

You're not looking at the same spell list i am, then.

Yep, it just depends on what spells the mage has and whether or not they can pick the field of battle or not. Ley Line Phantom in combination with Carpet of Adhesion or Magic Net are pretty much a death knell for an entirely tech based character (in a one on one situation at least). Also magic users and psychics definitely get more out of leveling than tech characters get. A 5th level Ley Line Walker can pull medium MDC armor out of thin air for a measly 10 ppe and one attack.

The trick from my view is to let the mage use up his attacks using two spells max per combat round, close with him/her and harry them with blows and grappling. I'd love to see a mage cast a spell while getting spine-stretched in a camel clutch or getting choked to death by a combat cyborg.

[Galroth]

Mages can dish it out, but often they can't take it.

You're not looking at the same spell list i am, then.

Yep, it just depends on what spells the mage has and whether or not they can pick the field of battle or not. Ley Line Phantom in combination with Carpet of Adhesion or Magic Net are pretty much a death knell for an entirely tech based character (in a one on one situation at least). Also magic users and psychics definitely get more out of leveling than tech characters get. A 5th level Ley Line Walker can pull medium MDC armor out of thin air for a measly 10 ppe and one attack.

The trick from my view is to let the mage use up his attacks using two spells max per combat round, close with him/her and harry them with blows and grappling. I'd love to see a mage cast a spell while getting spine-stretched in a camel clutch or getting choked to death by a combat cyborg.

Mages can cast more than two spells a round now. And if the first spell prevents the borg from closing, well there will be no camel clutching.

[Looonatic]

He might be impervious to energy weapons for a while, but the landscape around him probably isn't. Drop a building or the side of a cliff on him and then wait for the spell to end.

[MurderCityDisciple]

Mages can cast more than two spells a round now. And if the first spell prevents the borg from closing, well there will be no camel clutching.

So true....but...but..if the WWE Killborg gets his metal mitts on the pencil neck Gandalf, it's gonna be a savage flurry of choke slams and piledrivers finished with a camel clutch or maybe it's Mr. Socko time. As per the magic combat rules, a mage can't fire off spells when under physical duress.

For the theoretical WWE Killborg....it's kill or sizzle...fo' schizzel.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

Mages can dish it out, but often they can't take it.

You're not looking at the same spell list i am, then.

Yep, it just depends on what spells the mage has and whether or not they can pick the field of battle or not. Ley Line Phantom in combination with Carpet of Adhesion or Magic Net are pretty much a death knell for an entirely tech based character (in a one on one situation at least). Also magic users and psychics definitely get more out of leveling than tech characters get. A 5th level Ley Line Walker can pull medium MDC armor out of thin air for a measly 10 ppe and one attack.

The trick from my view is to let the mage use up his attacks using two spells max per combat round, close with him/her and harry them with blows and grappling. I'd love to see a mage cast a spell while getting spine-stretched in a camel clutch or getting choked to death by a combat cyborg.

I think it's a flawed assumption that the mage starts the fight with no armor or protective spells active. And, quite honestly, closing on a mage to go hand-to-hand may be one of the best ways to get murdered there is.

Say we're talking about a modest 5th level spellcaster; before heading into the thick of combat, he probably preps himself with his defensive spells. A fairly "simple" defensive suite is:

Armor of Ithan (50 MDC)
Breathe Without Air
Armor Bizarre (75 MDC)
Impervious To Energy
Invulnerability (50 MDC)
Invincible Armor (125 MDC) - also offers complete environmental protection
+ Energy Field if immobile/holding a defensive position (60 MDC)

A mage of even middling level can enter combat ~300 MDC, invulnerability to everything except physical attacks and some forms of impairment, and can pack a bad-ass melee weapon that almost no melee tech character can cope or compete with - and a shield, too, if needed (60 MDC).

Yeah, he burns a lot of PPE (around 90) to put all that up - but its not like he's going to be using his PPE to blast you, if he's got a brain - hell use a gun and shoot the snot out of you while you try to close on the "weak" mage. And then...

If you close the distance and get into melee - well, a Lightblade will ruin your day.

Mages aren't weak, aren't fragile if played correctly, and can seriously ruin your day. And we're not even getting into effects like Carpet of Adhesion and the like.

I think the thing that most people forget or ignore is that mages get all the benefits of technology.... AND have magic.

[flatline]

Out of curiosity, what are the mage's friends doing while you're trying to close with him and tie him in a knot?

Or do you routinely run into lone hostile mages?

--flatline

[Alrik Vas]

Having fought a lot of mages, i can say that 6-8 spells already prepped before a fight is about as common as being struck by lightning twice in the same spot while being attacked by a shark in the middle of the desert. Or to simplify, winning Power Ball.

In rifts, it can happen, but it generally doesn't.

[kaid]

Actually no. I am pretty sure there was a rules update that says the shielding type spells don't stack. So you can have armor of ithan OR armor bizarre OR invulnerability. Impervious to energy does not count against that because it is not a shielding spell.

One thing to note about impervious to energy most versions of it or things that grant it do not last very long. That is why things like the big bore is pretty handy if you can keep them staggered there is a good chance it will wear off pretty quickly and impervious to energy or other things that grant it are high enough level they take 2 actions to recast


Edit

Yup I double checked I was pretty sure I had seen this in the FAQ.

174. Can magic armor be doubled up? (ie. a mage casts Armour of Ithan on himself. Then Armor Bizarre, and then Invincible Armor) Would this work? If so, from which armor would damage be deducted first? Also, can a single type of armor be doubled? (a mage casts Armor of Ithan on himself twice).

Answer: You cannot double up on these magic's.

[Alrik Vas]

Even if there isn't an update that specifically states that (though i think you are right), it's still highly unlikely that a mage is going to walk around with these spells on him. Now if he takes time to prepare, or absolutely knows he's about to get into the fight of his life, then sure. Without a doubt. Though if you get ambushed with a called shot to the squishy parts...well, everyone's about equal there.

Also: Ah, the FAQ. /applause

[flatline]

Having fought a lot of mages, i can say that 6-8 spells already prepped before a fight is about as common as being struck by lightning twice in the same spot while being attacked by a shark in the middle of the desert. Or to simplify, winning Power Ball.

In rifts, it can happen, but it generally doesn't.

If you get the jump on the mage, then your statement is probably going to be true most of the time. Not always, though. My mages almost always have Armor of Ithan up when out and about just for good measure.

If the mage gets the jump on you, then you'd better believe that he'll have cast all the spells he wants to before attacking you.

However, someday you're going to run into a mage who, even when surprised, can still get his defences up. Taking one of my Temporal Wizards as an example, his first action would be to activate a Time Slip Talisman which gives him 2 maybe 3 free actions to cast spells (or whatever) before he re-enters normal time. If you kill him before he gets his first action, then good for you. If he gets any action at all, then you could be in for some trouble.

Usually, however, you'd simply never see my Temporal Wizard once he gets his action unless you can detect and enter Dimensional Envelopes. I'm usually quite content to hide until the bad people give up and leave. I have been known to use Dimensional Portal to leave a Dimensional Envelope when the bad people hung around too long and I had places to go.

And when I say "Bad People", it must be true since they are trying to hurt me even though it's extremely unlikely that I provoked them. They're just lucky I didn't drop a fusion block at their feet when I activated Time Slip.

--flatline

[flatline]

Actually no. I am pretty sure there was a rules update that says the shielding type spells don't stack. So you can have armor of ithan OR armor bizarre OR invulnerability. Impervious to energy does not count against that because it is not a shielding spell.

One thing to note about impervious to energy most versions of it or things that grant it do not last very long. That is why things like the big bore is pretty handy if you can keep them staggered there is a good chance it will wear off pretty quickly and impervious to energy or other things that grant it are high enough level they take 2 actions to recast


Edit

Yup I double checked I was pretty sure I had seen this in the FAQ.

174. Can magic armor be doubled up? (ie. a mage casts Armour of Ithan on himself. Then Armor Bizarre, and then Invincible Armor) Would this work? If so, from which armor would damage be deducted first? Also, can a single type of armor be doubled? (a mage casts Armor of Ithan on himself twice).

Answer: You cannot double up on these magic's.

You might find it interesting to find some of the old threads about the FAQ. It's my understanding that it was never official and some of the answers are clearly wrong. As such, referencing the FAQ does not usually help you in a discussion.

--flatline

[Alrik Vas]

Having fought a lot of mages, i can say that 6-8 spells already prepped before a fight is about as common as being struck by lightning twice in the same spot while being attacked by a shark in the middle of the desert. Or to simplify, winning Power Ball.

In rifts, it can happen, but it generally doesn't.

If you get the jump on the mage, then your statement is probably going to be true most of the time. Not always, though. My mages almost always have Armor of Ithan up when out and about just for good measure.

If the mage gets the jump on you, then you'd better believe that he'll have cast all the spells he wants to before attacking you.

However, someday you're going to run into a mage who, even when surprised, can still get his defences up. Taking one of my Temporal Wizards as an example, his first action would be to activate a Time Slip Talisman which gives him 2 maybe 3 free actions to cast spells (or whatever) before he re-enters normal time. If you kill him before he gets his first action, then good for you. If he gets any action at all, then you could be in for some trouble.

Usually, however, you'd simply never see my Temporal Wizard once he gets his action unless you can detect and enter Dimensional Envelopes. I'm usually quite content to hide until the bad people give up and leave. I have been known to use Dimensional Portal to leave a Dimensional Envelope when the bad people hung around too long and I had places to go.

And when I say "Bad People", it must be true since they are trying to hurt me even though it's extremely unlikely that I provoked them. They're just lucky I didn't drop a fusion block at their feet when I activated Time Slip.

--flatline

For sure. Everyone comes across their "One of these days"...uh...one of these days. Yeah. You just keep doing the best you can, and make sure your best keeps getting better as you go.

[kaid]

Actually no. I am pretty sure there was a rules update that says the shielding type spells don't stack. So you can have armor of ithan OR armor bizarre OR invulnerability. Impervious to energy does not count against that because it is not a shielding spell.

One thing to note about impervious to energy most versions of it or things that grant it do not last very long. That is why things like the big bore is pretty handy if you can keep them staggered there is a good chance it will wear off pretty quickly and impervious to energy or other things that grant it are high enough level they take 2 actions to recast


Edit

Yup I double checked I was pretty sure I had seen this in the FAQ.

174. Can magic armor be doubled up? (ie. a mage casts Armour of Ithan on himself. Then Armor Bizarre, and then Invincible Armor) Would this work? If so, from which armor would damage be deducted first? Also, can a single type of armor be doubled? (a mage casts Armor of Ithan on himself twice).

Answer: You cannot double up on these magic's.

You might find it interesting to find some of the old threads about the FAQ. It's my understanding that it was never official and some of the answers are clearly wrong. As such, referencing the FAQ does not usually help you in a discussion.

--flatline

I am pretty sure that FAQ statement was also echoed in the book of magic. Still a GM call but it seems like the intent is that they not stack.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Having fought a lot of mages, i can say that 6-8 spells already prepped before a fight is about as common as being struck by lightning twice in the same spot while being attacked by a shark in the middle of the desert. Or to simplify, winning Power Ball.

In rifts, it can happen, but it generally doesn't.

If you get the jump on the mage, then your statement is probably going to be true most of the time. Not always, though. My mages almost always have Armor of Ithan up when out and about just for good measure.

If the mage gets the jump on you, then you'd better believe that he'll have cast all the spells he wants to before attacking you.

However, someday you're going to run into a mage who, even when surprised, can still get his defences up. Taking one of my Temporal Wizards as an example, his first action would be to activate a Time Slip Talisman which gives him 2 maybe 3 free actions to cast spells (or whatever) before he re-enters normal time. If you kill him before he gets his first action, then good for you. If he gets any action at all, then you could be in for some trouble.

Usually, however, you'd simply never see my Temporal Wizard once he gets his action unless you can detect and enter Dimensional Envelopes. I'm usually quite content to hide until the bad people give up and leave. I have been known to use Dimensional Portal to leave a Dimensional Envelope when the bad people hung around too long and I had places to go.

And when I say "Bad People", it must be true since they are trying to hurt me even though it's extremely unlikely that I provoked them. They're just lucky I didn't drop a fusion block at their feet when I activated Time Slip.

--flatline

How exactly can they keep armor of ithan up while just "out and about". it has a duration of one minute per level at 10 PPE. lets keep with a mid level level 6 mage, that'll be 100 PPE per HOUR of being out and about. at high levels it's only about twice as efficent at 50 or 60 PPE per hour. unless they spend most of the day indoors they'll run dry long before the day is done.

[kaid]

One of the reasons for the other spell shields is many have better mana efficiency/duration than armor of ithan but take more actions to cast. Some of those are much better walking around in hostile territory spells. That said unless a mage is on or very close to a leyline I don't see them having their shielding spells up constantly but only when they think there is actual danger. That is also why they have basic body armor. Something good enough to take a few shots to buy time to power up their defenses if caught by surprise.

[flatline]

How exactly can they keep armor of ithan up while just "out and about". it has a duration of one minute per level at 10 PPE. lets keep with a mid level level 6 mage, that'll be 100 PPE per HOUR of being out and about. at high levels it's only about twice as efficent at 50 or 60 PPE per hour. unless they spend most of the day indoors they'll run dry long before the day is done.

"out and about" doesn't mean every waking minute. It means whenever there is reasonable risk of being exposed. If you're careful, it might not happen all that often. There's no need to have Armor of Ithan (or whatever your choice is) when you're protected by something else (say, riding in a vehicle). But there's no reason NOT to have some protection when you step outside your vehicle to investigate something.

I have been known to produce enough Talisman PPE batteries that I can fuel magical protection 24/7 as long I can spend some time on a ley line once or twice a week to recharge. Fortunately, few campaigns have ever required that sort of investment.

Once I have obtained a e-clip fed force field, I often do have a force field on every waking minute unless I decide to turn it off. Depending on the force field selected, the PPE cost of using Sub-particle Acceleration can be quite affordable even without lots of PPE batteries and ley line access. I have found being exceedingly cautious pays dividends in life expectancy even if the logistics require some careful planning to pull off.

--flatline

[Shark_Force]

also, quick note: the "mages cannot cast spells while under pressure" thing is referring to spells that take more than 1 action to cast. there are plenty of very effective and useful spells below level 5, as any starting ley line walker can tell you. sure, you won't be throwing around the crimson wall of lictalon or anything like that, but if someone is closing with you for melee, that just means it's time for a carpet of adhesion. the worst place to be when you're fighting a mage is close to them. i would never want to get closer than 200 feet to a mage if i could help it, and being at least 600-700 feet sounds way better. there are far far too many really good spells that have very short range for me to want to ever get close to them.

that's why i suggested big bore weapons (preferably en masse) as my first option rather than, say, the vibro-halberd from phase world.

[wyrmraker]

Impervious to Energy and Invulnerability are easy to get around. One of my favorite custom weapons is a rotary shotgun wielded by a juicer or borg. It's chambered for 12 gauge APRJ round. Since both spells grant Impervious to Energy, and Invulnerability grants 50 MDC, a long burst from that weapon means that the mage in questions is a smear.

And before anyone accuses me of using something strictly not in existence, let me remind you that the rotary guns have been around for a long time, and are the basis for most rail gun systems. And if a weapons engineer can work on a rotary rail gun, then after about a month in a regular machine shop they can create a conventional firearm design that came about originally in 1861, and has seen nothing but improvements ever since.

[flatline]

Impervious to Energy and Invulnerability are easy to get around. One of my favorite custom weapons is a rotary shotgun wielded by a juicer or borg. It's chambered for 12 gauge APRJ round. Since both spells grant Impervious to Energy, and Invulnerability grants 50 MDC, a long burst from that weapon means that the mage in questions is a smear.

What stats do you use for this rotary shotgun?

--flatline

[wyrmraker]

12 Gauge Rotary Shotgun
Weight: 67 pounds
Mega-Damage: 2d6 MD per Round
10 Rnd Burst: 2d6x5
30 Rnd Burst: 2d6x10
Magazine: 300 Round Belt
Range: 500 Feet

That is a rough version based in memory. The actual version is written down in one of my notebooks.

[Alrik Vas]

12 Gauge Rotary Shotgun
Weight: 67 pounds
Mega-Damage: 2d6 MD per Round
10 Rnd Burst: 2d6x5
30 Rnd Burst: 2d6x10
Magazine: 300 Round Belt
Range: 500 Feet

That is a rough version based in memory. The actual version is written down in one of my notebooks.

Seems kinda buff. Wouldn't mind one of those when called for.

Back to range and mages though, i wouldn't want to be more than closing distance with one UNLESS it was an open field. Giving a spell casting opponent places to hide and get ready for you seems bad.

[wyrmraker]

Getting surprise and range is always a good idea when dealing with any mage, especially the Battle Magus (that class gets Sharpshooting). Allowing them access to cover and time to prep is never a good idea.

But if you want overpowering force, that rotary shotgun is awesome. It'll beat down just about anything, in the right hands. And just to note, the 2d6 md per round for APRJ is from GMG. Juicer Uprising has it doing 3d6

[flatline]

Getting surprise and range is always a good idea when dealing with any mage, especially the Battle Magus (that class gets Sharpshooting). Allowing them access to cover and time to prep is never a good idea.

But if you want overpowering force, that rotary shotgun is awesome. It'll beat down just about anything, in the right hands. And just to note, the 2d6 md per round for APRJ is from GMG. Juicer Uprising has it doing 3d6

$20 for 2d6MD is pretty decent if you're stuck paying book prices for e-clip charging.

How long does it take for someone to create a belt of 300 rounds from a box of ammo? Is there a machine that does it for you or do you do it by hand?

--flatline

[wyrmraker]

Getting surprise and range is always a good idea when dealing with any mage, especially the Battle Magus (that class gets Sharpshooting). Allowing them access to cover and time to prep is never a good idea.

But if you want overpowering force, that rotary shotgun is awesome. It'll beat down just about anything, in the right hands. And just to note, the 2d6 md per round for APRJ is from GMG. Juicer Uprising has it doing 3d6

$20 for 2d6MD is pretty decent if you're stuck paying book prices for e-clip charging.

How long does it take for someone to create a belt of 300 rounds from a box of ammo? Is there a machine that does it for you or do you do it by hand?

--flatline

There are belt loading devices out there commercially. But to do it by hand, using a cloth belt would take about an hour, while a disintegrating link belt would take about twice that. Cloth belt takes less time, but is less reliable in the field and more prone to jamming. Disintegrating link belt is far more reliable, but takes forever to load.

[flatline]

Getting surprise and range is always a good idea when dealing with any mage, especially the Battle Magus (that class gets Sharpshooting). Allowing them access to cover and time to prep is never a good idea.

But if you want overpowering force, that rotary shotgun is awesome. It'll beat down just about anything, in the right hands. And just to note, the 2d6 md per round for APRJ is from GMG. Juicer Uprising has it doing 3d6

$20 for 2d6MD is pretty decent if you're stuck paying book prices for e-clip charging.

How long does it take for someone to create a belt of 300 rounds from a box of ammo? Is there a machine that does it for you or do you do it by hand?

--flatline

There are belt loading devices out there commercially. But to do it by hand, using a cloth belt would take about an hour, while a disintegrating link belt would take about twice that. Cloth belt takes less time, but is less reliable in the field and more prone to jamming. Disintegrating link belt is far more reliable, but takes forever to load.

I certainly hope to never be down-range of one of these weapons.

Of course, I try to never be down-range of anyone who is interested in shooting at me no matter what weapon they're using.

--flatline

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

I dont recall trying to intimate that said mage would always be walking around with all sorts of buffs active, but the discussion wasn't about "what happens when you catch a mage flat footed" - it was about how to deal with a mage who had combat buffs active in a fight. In this scenario, both sides have probably had time to prepare ahead of time because they knew combat was coming.

I cant find any reference in the BoM to armor type spells not stacking, either.

Re: the automatic shotgun - something like an AA-12, for instance - it would use the "old" burst rules for automatic SDC weapons.

Honestly, the TX-17 Assault Rifle gets you the same damage for less rounds spent with FAR better range.