Ajax 180 turn in helicopter mode...

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

From Yui Yuasa on Facebook:

1984 new-anime program start announce leaflet.

Translation: Auroran "cross-wing fighter" co-axial-rotors/tip-jet or hot-cycles rotor helicopter-mode can accurately horizontal turn at 180 degree easily (differ from "conventional GERWALK configuration" choice)．

Interesting in that it appears to state that in Helicopter configuration the Ajax can do a 180 degree rotation using the verniers mounted in the tips. It would also seems to connote that the blades do rotate contrariwise. Can anyone who is good at translation check? (That means you, SetoKaiba).

[taalismn]

From Yui Yuasa on Facebook:

1984 new-anime program start announce leaflet.

Translation: Auroran "cross-wing fighter" co-axial-rotors/tip-jet or hot-cycles rotor helicopter-mode can accurately horizontal turn at 180 degree easily (differ from "conventional GERWALK configuration" choice)．

Interesting in that it appears to state that in Helicopter configuration the Ajax can do a 180 degree rotation using the verniers mounted in the tips. It would also seems to connote that the blades do rotate contrariwise. Can anyone who is good at translation check? (That means you, SetoKaiba).

Ah, the Babylon 5 Starfury turn-on-a-dime, Robotech-style.

[Seto Kaiba]

From Yui Yuasa on Facebook: [...]

If it wasn't for the accompanying scan, I'd be inclined to say it was BS solely on the basis of who posted it. Yui's... quite a character.

Can anyone who is good at translation check? (That means you, SetoKaiba).

Sure thing.

Translation: Auroran "cross-wing fighter" co-axial-rotors/tip-jet or hot-cycles rotor helicopter-mode can accurately horizontal turn at 180 degree easily (differ from "conventional GERWALK configuration" choice)

Hm... the accuracy of her translation leaves a little to be desired. Not for want of trying, clearly, if she did that then she's made great strides with her English since I last saw her on MacrossWorld. What it actually says is: (From left to right, and top to bottom)


Original: ファイター形態のクル・セイダー. 高速移動や, ドッグファイトに 有利.
Translation: "Fighter form is [called] Crusader. It is advantageous for high-speed movement and dogfighting."

Original: クロス・ファイター形態は180度転回可能なヘリモード.
Translation: "Cross Fighter form is a helicopter mode that can turn 180 degrees."

Original: オーロラン
宇宙機甲隊専用可動メカ. ゾルの機動カに対抗するためローガンに代わって配備された.
Translation: "Auroran
Space Armored Corps exclusive mobile mecha. In order to oppose the advance of the Zor, it was deployed in place of the Logan."

Note: That last sentence there had kind of an awkward wording, so my translation is not the 100% precise literal translation I would have liked. It captures the meaning of it though.

I got no idea where the bit about verniers and such came from, but the essential bit about the Auroran's "Cross Fighter" (Helicopter) mode being able to make 180 degree turns is true.


EDIT: Ah, I see where that came from. What she said is not, in fact, from that promotional leaflet. She's quoting material off the Japanese Wikipedia article for Southern Cross. Where it gets unpleasant is that she's the one who added that material to the Wiki page, and the source she cited is fan-made material from the uRRG. The bulk of her comment that you quoted there is not Southern Cross OSM information. AFAIK, the Auroran just uses a NOTAR configuration, while all of its blades rotate in the same direction. It's modeled on the Sikorsky X-Wing concept craft.

[Alpha 11]

From Yui Yuasa on Facebook: [...]

If it wasn't for the accompanying scan, I'd be inclined to say it was BS solely on the basis of who posted it. Yui's... quite a character.

Can anyone who is good at translation check? (That means you, SetoKaiba).

Sure thing.

Translation: Auroran "cross-wing fighter" co-axial-rotors/tip-jet or hot-cycles rotor helicopter-mode can accurately horizontal turn at 180 degree easily (differ from "conventional GERWALK configuration" choice)

Hm... the accuracy of her translation leaves a little to be desired. Not for want of trying, clearly, if she did that then she's made great strides with her English since I last saw her on MacrossWorld. What it actually says is: (From left to right, and top to bottom)


Original: ファイター形態のクル・セイダー. 高速移動や, ドッグファイトに 有利.
Translation: "Fighter form is [called] Crusader. It is advantageous for high-speed movement and dogfighting."

Original: クロス・ファイター形態は180度転回可能なヘリモード.
Translation: "Cross Fighter form is a helicopter mode that can turn 180 degrees."

Original: オーロラン
宇宙機甲隊専用可動メカ. ゾルの機動カに対抗するためローガンに代わって配備された.
Translation: "Auroran
Space Armored Corps exclusive mobile mecha. In order to oppose the advance of the Zor, it was deployed in place of the Logan."

Note: That last sentence there had kind of an awkward wording, so my translation is not the 100% precise literal translation I would have liked. It captures the meaning of it though.

I got no idea where the bit about verniers and such came from, but the essential bit about the Auroran's "Cross Fighter" (Helicopter) mode being able to make 180 degree turns is true.


EDIT: Ah, I see where that came from. What she said is not, in fact, from that promotional leaflet. She's quoting material off the Japanese Wikipedia article for Southern Cross. Where it gets unpleasant is that she's the one who added that material to the Wiki page, and the source she cited is fan-made material from the uRRG. The bulk of her comment that you quoted there is not Southern Cross OSM information. AFAIK, the Auroran just uses a NOTAR configuration, while all of its blades rotate in the same direction. It's modeled on the Sikorsky X-Wing concept craft.

Wow, nicely done!

[tobefrnk]

In my games, I've used the thrusters in the blades to give the AJAX a more apreacited maneuverability and allowed for an auto-dodge in battloid. (I also have my Bioroids sporting auto-dodge too).

[Seto Kaiba]

Aren't there scenes of the mecha in Battloid mode in space, using maneuvering verniers on the tips of these helicopter blades?

Yes, but that's entirely beside the point...

What Yui is asserting (by proxy) is that the Auroran from the original Southern Cross used coaxial, hot-cycle rotors to enable it to make the aforementioned swift 180 degree horizontal turns. The materials presented do not support this claim, and the available information paints a somewhat different picture of the Auroran's capabilities. The Auroran's design was a sci-fi riff on the Sikorsky X-Wing, and very evidently does not possess the described coaxial rotors. It's possible that they could use hot-cycle drive to turn the main rotor, but the way the rotor's vernier nozzles are shown, it seems unlikely, since the nozzles on two blades are pointing the wrong way for this approach to work in the available line art of that mode. There are vents near the tail that might be NOTAR vents... a distant cousin of hot cycle design that is actually practicable with modern technology.

[ShadowLogan]

What Yui is asserting (by proxy) is that the Auroran from the original Southern Cross used coaxial, hot-cycle rotors to enable it to make the aforementioned swift 180 degree horizontal turns.

RT.com's infopedia does have it as a coaxial design in the AGAC file "To avoid having to built in a tail rotor, the designers gave the Helicopter mode contra-rotating rotors; and to resist enemy fire from the ground, the underside of the wing box was reinforced." Likely uRRG influence in this case (uRRG states that "This is Animation #10" confirms it in the additional notes section on the AGAC, but don't go into any real detail).

Though I have begun to wonder if the AGAC's 3rd mode really should be considered a type of autogyro (aka gyro-copter) or gyrodyne instead of a helicopter. It isn't to hard to see why someone would mistake an autogyro/gyrodyne mode for a helicopter mode. They wouldn't have a need for a tail rotor (and NOTAR or fan-in-tail) either, though here thrusters replace prop pushers in the rear for gyro-chopper mode.

It's possible that they could use hot-cycle drive to turn the main rotor, but the way the rotor's vernier nozzles are shown, it seems unlikely, since the nozzles on two blades are pointing the wrong way for this approach to work in the available line art of that mode.

This assumes the blades can't rotate on the mounting to position themselves properly or are intended to work in when the blades are rotating. The blades already have to reposition themselves for fighter mode to stack on top of each other, so we know they already have this capacity on some level.

[Sgt Anjay]

When in battloid mode the rotor thrusters are shown capable of pushing the Ajax on multiple vectors, so clearly they're not locked in place

[rtsurfer]

I don't think they are actually spinning rotors. More like advanced versions of the structures on Cyclops Recon & the unused Hovertank backpack. They can probably sweep an arc of about 270 degree, with each able to spin/tilt 360 degrees, and each may be on something like a 145 degree hinge. The ailerons/tips are clearly thrusters in the animation, I wonder if the wing flap structures are actually lift thrusters in guardian mode and/or forward thrusters in battloid.

[glitterboy2098]

When in battloid mode the rotor thrusters are shown capable of pushing the Ajax on multiple vectors, so clearly they're not locked in place

it makes sense to add manuevering thrusters on long lever-arm structures like that. you can get more orientation change for your effort, which is one of the reasons the Babylon5 Starfury is so popular with Verisimilitude conscious scifi fans.
it also is probably why NASA was interested in the design for awhile.

[Seto Kaiba]

[...] Likely uRRG influence in this case (uRRG states that "This is Animation #10" confirms it in the additional notes section on the AGAC, but don't go into any real detail).

Oh, it's definitely a result of the uRRG's habitually inept authors contributing obviously incorrect information. Just for yuks, it's probably worth noting that This is Animation 10 says nothing of the sort. That book's coverage of the Auroran's design consists of just four sentences... four sentences crammed into a single half-page spread... as the second entry for the unflatteringly named "The Others" section of the mechanical design gallery. It takes a backseat to the GMP robot.

As is typical for their work, the uRRG is counting on the Robotech fandom's collective ignorance to conceal that their material is not nearly as well researched or accurate as most fans believe. Most of it is simply made up by them, with the occasional bit of aviation terminology added (whether it's applicable or not) to make it look credible.

Though I have begun to wonder if the AGAC's 3rd mode really should be considered a type of autogyro (aka gyro-copter) or gyrodyne instead of a helicopter. It isn't to hard to see why someone would mistake an autogyro/gyrodyne mode for a helicopter mode. [...]

While the specific term used for the mode in the OSM is "Cross Fighter", the specific word used to describe it in Japanese was the loanword "Heli", which is "Helicopter". The creator's intent was for it to be a helicopter/fighter hybrid, just as its real-world inspiration was conceived. In practice, I'd say that it probably does operate like a compound helicopter, using those Crusader-mode engines to provide forward thrust. It's a shame we never got to see it operate much.

This assumes the blades can't rotate on the mounting to position themselves properly or are intended to work in when the blades are rotating. The blades already have to reposition themselves for fighter mode to stack on top of each other, so we know they already have this capacity on some level.

True, but what we're shown for the default configuration in Cross Fighter mode has the blade-tip vernier nozzles pointing in opposing directions. If this had been a design consideration when the Auroran was drafted, we would expect the art to be showing the nozzles to be oriented on the same edge of each blade. The line art for the Auroran on pg47 of the This is Animation 10 book does seem to indicate that the blades possess limited rotation capability, but it's unclear if it can do that during Cross Fighter mode as well as in Cosmo Sniper... or how far it can rotate.

When in battloid mode the rotor thrusters are shown capable of pushing the Ajax on multiple vectors, so clearly they're not locked in place

In Cosmo Sniper mode, certainly... but we can't say if that's true for the other two forms. I really do wish there was some more coverage of this unit in official material. It's the only design of the series I'm actually interested in, but it gets short sold somethin' fierce... it gets half the space as the GMP robot, sharing a page with the Zor transport.

[ShadowLogan]

True, but what we're shown for the default configuration in Cross Fighter mode has the blade-tip vernier nozzles pointing in opposing directions. If this had been a design consideration when the Auroran was drafted, we would expect the art to be showing the nozzles to be oriented on the same edge of each blade. The line art for the Auroran on pg47 of the This is Animation 10 book does seem to indicate that the blades possess limited rotation capability, but it's unclear if it can do that during Cross Fighter mode as well as in Cosmo Sniper... or how far it can rotate.

I'm aware of the configuration, that would really suggest those thrusters aren't intended for use if that is the intended flight mode (or they only use 1/2 of them).

The engines (or at least the use of 1/2 of them given position, the other half could be used to quickly break the rotation for a quick Fighter/Battloid re-config) could also allow for rotation of the blades that would not require anti-torque (NOTAR, Co-axial, Tail Rotor, etc). The Sud-Ouest S.0.1221 Djinn is a french helicopter that uses this approach, others have to, but not made into production. Really there is no reason to make the blades co-axial, as options do exist to explain the lack of tail rotor, and the 4 blades do look to be on the same plane (no co-axial design I'm familiar with operates like that).

While the specific term used for the mode in the OSM is "Cross Fighter", the specific word used to describe it in Japanese was the loanword "Heli", which is "Helicopter". The creator's intent was for it to be a helicopter/fighter hybrid, just as its real-world inspiration was conceived. In practice, I'd say that it probably does operate like a compound helicopter, using those Crusader-mode engines to provide forward thrust. It's a shame we never got to see it operate much.

I'm not going to get into an argument over what the OSM wanted it to be, that isn't the conceptualization version I am looking at.

In the case of Robotech it does look like their intent (when the show was written) was to make it over as a Gyro-chopper ("Armored Gyro Assault Chopper", AGAC) as opposed to a helicopter, which would be a different type of vehicle, though one that might be mistaken for a helicopter.

It's interesting that secondary material from that time period (novels, 1E RPG, probably others) changed AGAC into AJAC (phonetically indistinguishable IINM), which was short for Armored Jet Attack Copter (novels, 1E RPG did not do a name break down w/the mecha entry). If HG had kept that, we could always say Leonard misspoke (Marie is treated the same way calling the Logan's alt mode "Guardian" in dialogue, but is considered a Battloid by them giving precedent), but they have chosen to go back to the Gyro name as opposed to Jet, which IMHO opens the door for the mecha to be reclassified as having a Gyro-Chopper mode instead of a helicopter mode.

[Seto Kaiba]

I'm not going to get into an argument over what the OSM wanted it to be, that isn't the conceptualization version I am looking at

Yes, but the specific point of inquiry in the original post was with respect to the OSM's statements of the craft's capability and characteristics. That's why it bears mentioning, because the RT stats were pulled from some fanboy's arse, and have essentially zero connection to the animation or anything else.

In the case of Robotech it does look like their intent (when the show was written) [...]

I would hesitate to ascribe anything like the word "intent" to the scripts of post-Dana's Story Masters Saga, since that's where several VAs allege things really went to hell with the writing and production schedules. The writers working on RT had rather a noticeable bad habit of using words they didn't understand simply because they sounded cool. HG's staff is sticking with it, however, I think it doesn't accurately match what the design intent clearly demonstrates, which is to be something like the Sikorsky X-Wing that inspired it... a working helicopter that can switch, mid-flight, to a fighter. Their official name for it retains the "Gyro", but they consistently refer to it as a helicopter in the entire body of the article.

[Rabid Southern Cross Fan]

Their official name for it retains the "Gyro", but they consistently refer to it as a helicopter in the entire body of the article.

It was called a Hovercopter by Dennis Brown at one point. If the rotors are incapable of use in the 'Helicopter' configuration, a hover system would certainly make sense.

:shrugs:

[drewkitty ~..~]

(Warning Science Content)
The way to rotate a object in space with out the use of reaction mass is to rotate a large mass at the center of mass the opposite direction as you want to rotate the ship. Then when the ship is pointed the way you want it to be, you stop the spinning mass.This uses Newton's equal and opposite reaction Law of motion.

The technical term for such a spinning mass is Gimbals....which is basically a large Gyroscope.

So RSCF's idea about counter rotating the "blades" is based in basic physics and workable if the 'chopper' just wants to spin about to shoot at whatever is behind it. This is sort of what happens with a regular helicopter when the pilot cuts the power to the tail-rotor.

[Seto Kaiba]

It was called a Hovercopter by Dennis Brown at one point. If the rotors are incapable of use in the 'Helicopter' configuration, a hover system would certainly make sense.

True, but since the bulk of its operations shown are in space, we never really get to see it operate as a helicopter or any variant thereof. 'bout the only one who knows how this is supposed to work is the original mechanical designer, and it's a tall order to pursue that one since Studio Ammonite doesn't exist anymore and its designers seem to have all but dropped out of the industry entirely except for Hiroshi Ogawa. I'm not sure who designed what though, since the art book doesn't specify.

The way to rotate a object in space with out the use of reaction mass is to rotate a large mass at the center of mass the opposite direction as you want to rotate the ship. Then when the ship is pointed the way you want it to be, you stop the spinning mass.This uses Newton's equal and opposite reaction Law of motion. [...]

It's a principle that mecha anime has been leveraging for as long as there's been "real robot" anime. The show that defined the "real robot" subgenre, Mobile Suit Gundam, had a special term for the system that leveraged Newton's third law of motion for propellent-less maneuvering in space. It was called AMBAC (Active Mass Balance Auto Control), and was a main component of a mobile suit's control system on the ground and in space. Macross inherited both the practice and the term, demonstrating AMBAC-style propellant-less maneuvering on a few occasions and even used the term "AMBAC" in their initial description of it. It's now covered under the umbrella of the VF integrated airframe management AI "ANGIRAS" (on all 1st-3rd Gen VFs, supplanted by the next-gen ARIEL system on 4th Gen, and ARIEL II on 5th Gen).

The Auroran, however, seems to rely principally on the vernier array in its rotor-tips for maneuvering in space when it's in Cosmo Sniper mode, kind of like the XM-X series Crossbone Gundams from the manga Mobile Suit Crossbone Gundam.

So RSCF's idea about counter rotating the "blades" is based in basic physics and workable if the 'chopper' just wants to spin about to shoot at whatever is behind it. This is sort of what happens with a regular helicopter when the pilot cuts the power to the tail-rotor.

That assumes that the helicopter mode would be used in space... what little information is available to us suggests that it was only intended for atmospheric use, and "Crusader" mode was meant for space operations and long-distance flight. In space operations, the only thing we see the rotor blades used for is the verniers on the tips.

[drewkitty ~..~]

The way to rotate a object in space with out the use of reaction mass is to rotate a large mass at the center of mass the opposite direction as you want to rotate the ship. Then when the ship is pointed the way you want it to be, you stop the spinning mass.This uses Newton's equal and opposite reaction Law of motion. [...]

It's a principle that mecha anime has been leveraging for as long as there's been "real robot" anime. The show that defined the "real robot" sub-genre, Mobile Suit Gundam, had a special term for the system that leveraged Newton's third law of motion for propellent-less maneuvering in space. It was called AMBAC (Active Mass Balance Auto Control), and was a main component of a mobile suit's control system on the ground and in space. Macross inherited both the practice and the term, demonstrating AMBAC-style propellant-less maneuvering on a few occasions and even used the term "AMBAC" in their initial description of it. It's now covered under the umbrella of the VF integrated airframe management AI "ANGIRAS" (on all 1st-3rd Gen. VFs, supplanted by the next-gen. ARIEL system on 4th Gen., and ARIEL II on 5th Gen.).

The Auroran, however, seems to rely principally on the vernier array in its rotor-tips for maneuvering in space when it's in Cosmo Sniper mode, kind of like the XM-X series Crossbone Gundams from the manga Mobile Suit Crossbone Gundam.

Did you not understand what I was saying? It was like you were thinking I was making a point with my text here. When it was only supporting data for my point.

So RSCF's idea about counter rotating the "blades" is based in basic physics and workable if the 'chopper' just wants to spin about to shoot at whatever is behind it. This is sort of what happens with a regular helicopter when the pilot cuts the power to the tail-rotor.

That assumes that the helicopter mode would be used in space... what little information is available to us suggests that it was only intended for atmospheric use, and "Crusader" mode was meant for space operations and long-distance flight. In space operations, the only thing we see the rotor blades used for is the verniers on the tips.

Oh no you didn't cause you quoted here what I was leading up to in this quote.
Notice I did not say this was how the AJAX worked, only that "If done like this it could work.".
Come oooooon it is like you were only paying half attention to what was written when you read my post, or reading sub-text that was not there.
---
Since they were only shown to be used in space and your translation only the Space Corps fly them...it is safe to presume "they were only used in space".

[Seto Kaiba]

Did you not understand what I was saying? It was like you were thinking I was making a point with my text here. When it was only supporting data for my point.

No, I understood just fine... though I think it's possible you misunderstood where I was going with my reply. I was making the point that, while AMBAC-style space mobility was taken into account in previous mecha anime from that period, that's something that apparently did not come under consideration by the creators of Southern Cross... which is one of the bigger problems with your theory/proposal. The biggest issue with it is that helicopter mode appears to be the only one in which the blades can rotate freely, and that's the only mode that's not usable/designed for space service.

Since they were only shown to be used in space and your translation only the Space Corps fly them...it is safe to presume "they were only used in space".

Well, for starters, the Tactics Armored Space Corps from Southern Cross are shown to engage in surface-side combat fairly heavily... so that the unit is exclusive to the Space Corps does not preclude the Auroran's use in surface combat. I'd say it's a reasonably safe bet that Cross Fighter mode is not usable in space, as the Tactics Armored Space Corps used the Auroran exclusively in Crusader and Cosmo Sniper modes. Had the series not been truncated, we would probably have seen the Aurorans used in surface-side combat the way we saw the Logan being used.

On the other hand, the Robotech equivalent's official stats do assert that the Helicopter mode was for atmospheric service... suggesting that the fighter configuration was used principally in space, and helicopter mode was principally for ground operations.

[drewkitty ~..~]

*yawns*

You could of stated all of that w/o it being a adversarial response to what I posted.

[Seto Kaiba]

*yawns*

You could of stated all of that w/o it being a adversarial response to what I posted.

My original reply was not intended as such, so my apologies if it came across that way.

[ShadowLogan]

On the other hand, the Robotech equivalent's official stats do assert that the Helicopter mode was for atmospheric service... suggesting that the fighter configuration was used principally in space, and helicopter mode was principally for ground operations.

I don't think they would have passed on the fighter mode for atmospheric operations given that it has several advantages over the Logan.

Yes, but the specific point of inquiry in the original post was with respect to the OSM's statements of the craft's capability and characteristics. That's why it bears mentioning, because the RT stats were pulled from some fanboy's arse, and have essentially zero connection to the animation or anything else.

And I called the mecha the AGAC, not the Auran (sp) indicating that it was directed at the RT version of the craft not the OSM. I know some people use the two interchangeably, but I do not.

HG's staff is sticking with it, however, I think it doesn't accurately match what the design intent clearly demonstrates, which is to be something like the Sikorsky X-Wing that inspired it... a working helicopter that can switch, mid-flight, to a fighter. Their official name for it retains the "Gyro", but they consistently refer to it as a helicopter in the entire body of the article.

I agree the design appears to be modeled after the Sikorsky X-Wing, but the naming convention chosen really suggests it is not in fact a helicopter but a relative of the helicopter in the rotorcraft family. Why else leave "gyro" in the name and not change it? And we both know that HG has done such a thing with this arc before (Logan's alt mode), setting precedence for going against the dialogue.

That they refer to it as a type of helicopter that doesn't work with the design really shows how much effort they put into the writeup. One can always treat the "helicopter" reference as a loose association, like people might call self-propelled artillery (and/or other armored vehicles) tanks, or fail to differentiate the types of gas they need for their vehicle.

[Seto Kaiba]

I don't think they would have passed on the fighter mode for atmospheric operations given that it has several advantages over the Logan.

I don't make the news, I just report it. I'm not sure the Auroran's Crusader mode would be all that viable in atmosphere... it's pretty shoddy in terms of aerodynamics.

I agree the design appears to be modeled after the Sikorsky X-Wing, but the naming convention chosen really suggests it is not in fact a helicopter but a relative of the helicopter in the rotorcraft family. Why else leave "gyro" in the name and not change it?

Robotech's approach to it is fairly inconsistent, and the stats very clearly never received a sanity check before they were posted... otherwise they would've caught the many, MANY errors in the uRRG's "research". They use "Gyro" only for the craft's name, and otherwise refer to it as a helicopter. We could let them off on a technicality, since the design does appear to be a gyrodyne (often called a "compound helicopter").

And we both know that HG has done such a thing with this arc before (Logan's alt mode), setting precedence for going against the dialogue.

Yes, but only where the previous designation goes against their established conventions (or otherwise falls afoul of Tommy Yune).

That they refer to it as a type of helicopter that doesn't work with the design really shows how much effort they put into the writeup.

Who are you accusing of laziness? The original creators, who referred to it as a helicopter in their (very brief) descriptions of it, or the uRRG who repeatedly identify it as a helicopter and included a bunch of other obviously-inaccurate stuff with it?

[ShadowLogan]

Who are you accusing of laziness? The original creators, who referred to it as a helicopter in their (very brief) descriptions of it, or the uRRG who repeatedly identify it as a helicopter and included a bunch of other obviously-inaccurate stuff with it?

HG.

I've said I don't want to discuss the OSM aspect. I am not even considering the OSM aspect in regard to this line (IIRC SDC:SC it isn't even an issue based on the name in dialogue/sub-titles).

I'm not sure the Auroran's Crusader mode would be all that viable in atmosphere... it's pretty shoddy in terms of aerodynamics.

F-4 Phantom II. Had terrible aerodynamics (liked to those of a brick), but was a viable atmospheric fighter due to it's thrust.

They use "Gyro" only for the craft's name, and otherwise refer to it as a helicopter. We could let them off on a technicality, since the design does appear to be a gyrodyne (often called a "compound helicopter").

I agree this is more of a technicality disagreement with them playing loose with terms HG should have researched better (and the uRRG really doesn't count as research). Still the naming convention can put it as an auto-gryo (aka gyro-copter), the design itself can go either auto-gyro or gyrodyne. Helicopter references can be seen as playing lose with words (which we know people do), aside from the physical design chosen (co-axial) as that is just bad research.

[Seto Kaiba]

HG.

'k then. I would've backed either.

F-4 Phantom II. Had terrible aerodynamics (liked to those of a brick), but was a viable atmospheric fighter due to it's thrust.

But the long-established and eminently consistent trend in Robotech is for each successive generation of fighters to have more weight and less engine power than the previous generation. The "AGACs" is no exception to this trend, so the officially-stated (but never demonstrated) tendency of the UEDF to use its helicopter mode for atmospheric service while fighter mode is more or less reserved for space may be thoroughly justified from a practicality standpoint. As the Beta is something that wasn't available until sometime around the 2nd ERF, the AGACs would've been the heaviest (mass) fighter serving in the United Earth Forces, though it's edged out by the Logan for being the slowest. It's possible that the lower engine power of the AGACs was insufficient to render its poor aerodynamics combat-viable in atmospheric flight, while its helicopter mode possessed no such limitation and was more appropriate to the type of operations occurring anyway.

I agree this is more of a technicality disagreement with them playing loose with terms HG should have researched better (and the uRRG really doesn't count as research).

I'd go one step further and justifiably say that the uRRG's "research" doesn't count as research either... either because the writers threw in whatever terminology they thought sounded cool without rhyme or reason, or because what little info that site offers that's allegedly from OSM sources seems to be mainly from "blind idiot" translations.

[ShadowLogan]

But the long-established and eminently consistent trend in Robotech is for each successive generation of fighters to have more weight and less engine power than the previous generation.

I see no reason that they must and have to do this. That doesn't mean it can't be justified, just that they do not have to do it. The weight issue really isn't out of place.

The Infopedia does state that VF-X-4 was passed over for more maneuverable fighters. So the AGAC/Logan/Alpha/Beta are going to be better than the VF-X-4 in this regard, which TY may or may not have at being above the VF-1. The AGAC is a later development, than the other 3 (the Beta was updated, no indication to what actually changed between the -7 and -9 versions), but given Ep37's recycled footage it may be old enough to fall under the VF-X-4 maneuverability short coming comparison.

Since maneuverability is a factor of aerodynamics and available thrust, it stands to reason the later mecha have balanced the two to still be better than the VF-X-4.

[Seto Kaiba]

I see no reason that they must and have to do this. That doesn't mean it can't be justified, just that they do not have to do it. The weight issue really isn't out of place.

Well, nobody's forcing them to stick to that trend... but they did it anyway.

The Infopedia does state that VF-X-4 was passed over for more maneuverable fighters. [...]

An easy excuse to get away with, since the VF-X-4 isn't (and never will be) actually in Robotech's animation. It must have been a real wallowing pig of a plane, if the Alpha was seen as a step up when it demonstrably isn't as agile in flight or on the ground as the VF-1 is. The AGACs may be getting a pass on this only by dint of its fighter mode being reserved for space and relying on its helicopter mode (which would naturally have a tighter turning circle than a fighter).

Since maneuverability is a factor of aerodynamics and available thrust, it stands to reason the later mecha have balanced the two to still be better than the VF-X-4.

Or that the VF-X-4 really was rubbish in the RT-verse.

[Seto Kaiba]

When was it established that an AGACs has environmentally restricted mode usage issues? [...]

Well, it's implied in the Infopedia's coverage of the AGACs design... the Space Forces understandably have no use for that helicopter mode when actually operating in space, and the surface-side forces have little use for fighter mode because its design is not that of a high-performance fighter and thus is better suited for use in helicopter mode as a close air support craft. Basically, that the Armored Space Corps have no use for helicopter mode is common sense, and that the air forces wouldn't use fighter mode is also fairly self-explanatory as the article tells us at least twice that the AGACs was not even designed to be a high-performance fighter and as such is kind of indifferent in that regard outside of space flight.

Essentially, it's not that the AGACs itself has environmental restrictions on its mode usage... it's that each of UEDF branch ends up stuck with a mode that's more or less useless to them, so they just don't use it.

[Sgt Anjay]

Well...fixed-wing flight is inherently faster and more efficient, hence real-life vehicles like the Osprey, so for long-distance travel the ability to change to fighter-mode is actually a really useful thing.

[ShadowLogan]

Or that the VF-X-4 really was rubbish in the RT-verse.

They should never have used it in the first place knowing they couldn't use the design to the full potential that fans would expect and want to see it in if it was treated as a Veritech.

Essentially, it's not that the AGACs itself has environmental restrictions on its mode usage... it's that each of UEDF branch ends up stuck with a mode that's more or less useless to them, so they just don't use it.

Which really begs the question why the two branches requirements where joined together into a single program. It likely would have been more cost effective to keep the two programs separate or produce two models optimized for their respective missions w/o adding in the extras.

The Air Force can grow the AGAC into roles to utilize the fixed wing mode (or adapt doctrine to utilize it) in addition to rotor. Unfortunately the Invid cut short the service life of the AGAC unless the UEEF was also using the design.

[Seto Kaiba]

Well...fixed-wing flight is inherently faster and more efficient, hence real-life vehicles like the Osprey, so for long-distance travel the ability to change to fighter-mode is actually a really useful thing.

With the ground forces apparently principally located within or in close proximity to the few cities remaining on Earth, that may not have been a capability they actually needed. The AGACs certainly isn't fast in that respect either, being at least marginally slower than the Alpha at altitude. From the description, the AGACs units possessed by the ground forces (few though they are said to be) were apparently confined to close air support duties.

Or that the VF-X-4 really was rubbish in the RT-verse.

They should never have used it in the first place knowing they couldn't use the design to the full potential that fans would expect and want to see it in if it was treated as a Veritech.

Quite.

Which really begs the question why the two branches requirements where joined together into a single program.

Well, if we take 2E's Masters Saga sourcebook at face value, it may have been a case of Leonard dictating policy with his terminal case of the crazies. It definitely doesn't make sense.

See, I don't buy that approach at all. The AGACs in jet mode, in atmosphere, would function fairly well in the same roles as say, an A-10.

'cept for, y'know, the lack of high-powered weaponry and its extremely limited ordinance capacity... it would have little to offer as an attack plane, and nothing that it couldn't do equally well as a helicopter. We're told flat out that its indifferent performance as a fighter kept it from being used that way by the ground forces...

Basically, in helicopter mode in space, all the same thrust that is available in jet is still available, and now you get to have four off center maneuvering vernier clusters at the ends of the blades for greater, not lesser, agility. [...]

To what useful end, though? We don't know how those verniers are powered, so they may be dragging power away from the engines to operate. Their orientation is hardly ideal for space maneuvering in helicopter mode. Battloid mode puts all four in more reasonable locations for stable control.

[Seto Kaiba]

Well, just going by Robotech.com, they give it a dozen cluster missiles, and these seem to be sufficient to serve in various roles. [...]

Dunno 'bout that. Having only a dozen micro-missiles isn't what I'd call well-armed. By the standards of its contemporaries that's enough ordinance for roughly three kills before running out, assuming the enemy doesn't intercept any.

More than that, we also have single shots from the gunpod, which is apparently still available in jet or helicopter, taking out targets like Bioroids.

Gunpod? Eh? I don't have my copy of the Masters Saga sourcebook in front of me, but I don't recall the AGACs having a gunpod in the official spec. Just the fixed beam guns on the arms, and the one in the nose. Neither of which is powerful enough to be a credible heavy gun for an attack craft.

More than that, a helicopter isn't really as advantageous against a mecha when compared to its superior agility versus a tank. A jet, while possible less agile, is fast enough to be in and out quickly, limiting its time of exposure. [...]

Fast enough, yes... but an attack plane also needs a flight profile that's also stable in a dive or attack run, agile enough to avoid incoming anti-aircraft fire, stealthy enough to remain undetected for as long as possible, and with enough armaments to be a credible threat to significant numbers of enemy ground forces. The AGACs fails several of these basic criteria as a whole, having a very top-heavy and un-aerodynamic design that would doubtless cause some stability issues, that it lacks in agility in fighter mode is clear from what we're told about it being unsuitable as a high-performance fighter, the design is not passively stealthy and entered service long before a credible active stealth system was introduced in the UEEF, and it lacks the ordinance capacity for a sustained engagement.

Helicopter mode addresses most of these issues, making it extremely stable in NOE flight, extremely agile (though slow), and it allows the AGACs to operate more stealthily by NOE flight and judicious use of terrain. The only thing it can't fix is that it isn't armed for a sustained engagement.

And if the AGACs is used as its supposed to be, I conjunction with other forces, the intent appears to be to keep an enemy off their game a bit so that these strikes can work to the UEDFs best advantage. [...]

Going from the official material, if the AGACs is used the way it's supposed to be by ground forces (as in, "as a helicopter gunship for close air support"), the intent behind it is exactly what one would expect from such a craft... operation as an ambush predator and light air cover for ground forces.

Also, I note that the RPG seems to have taken the AGACs its own way once again. For whatever reason, they say it has four hardpoints, and that each has a rather anemic 1,000 pound limit, which is a bit low for an attack craft, but I guess somewhat closer for an attack helicopter.

Because that's what it is... an attack helicopter. The fighter mode is decorative, except in space where it can leverage its vernier array. Even then, it's not really anything more than a light fighter.

Lets assume that the maneuvering verniers on the blade tips do in fact leech power away form the main engines for a moment. So what?

So, they're positioned in helicopter mode in such a way as to be perfectly useless for maneuvering unless the pilot is a big fan of the centrifuge? Might have something to do with why they never use helicopter mode in space...