Updated First RW Mecha in the Sentinels campaign.....

[ArmySGT.]

Ok, so has anyone updated the First Robotech war (Macross) era mecha with Sentinels campaign systems?

Example the Gladiator...... Replacing the TZ IV gun cluster with a short range particle beam and autocannon, then replacing the short range missile 12 packs with 40 shot Mini missile systems?

Great way to play the classics and they don't get shredded by the Invid.

Next thought the Tomahawk update.

[taalismn]

Ok, so has anyone updated the First Robotech war (Macross) era mecha with Sentinels campaign systems?

Example the Gladiator...... Replacing the TZ IV gun cluster with a short range particle beam and autocannon, then replacing the short range missile 12 packs with 40 shot Mini missile systems?

Great way to play the classics and they don't get shredded by the Invid.

Next thought the Tomahawk update.

Sounds like low-level IMU'ing...Though if they're organizational-mandated and -resourced upgrades/refits, I imagine they don't fall under the definition of Improvised Mecha Unit.

[ArmySGT.]

My thoughts are there is plenty of 1st RW veterans in the Expeditionary force that though they can be retrained on 2nd gen mecha have a preference for the older style. Another advantage is the older mecha use fusion reactors and not protoculture; a definitive plus in combating for the Regent's forces.

Add in meet ups with Zentraedi still loyal to the Masters infrequently and the larger mecha make sense. That updates like mini missiles keeps them in the fight for longer duration, ups the kill ratio, and swapping slug throwers for energy weapons resolves some supply issues......

I want to see a Gladiator refit against Invid Troopers...... if the mecha pilot can get terrain such as urban or forest that negates the Invids advantage in movement (flying), then the Invid is at a loss without a protocultured powered target to lock in on.

[Jefffar]

I'd actually expect that, since they didn't seem to know about the Invid until they found out the hard way, that any refit 1st generation mecha would be protoculture powered in UEEF service (which could be used to explain the passage indicating fist generation destroids could be detected and targeted by Invid protocultre sensors).

[jedi078]

I disagree with the whole 'IMUing' idea in regards to upgrading the gun clusters.

The older Destiods would have realistically had their gun clusters, and shoulder mounted missile launchers upgraded sometime in the mid to late 20 teens.

Because of the 'no conversion rule' I can't exactly say what my -A1 and -A2 models have but I can tell you this: All of the 1st gen Destriods (save the MAC II) should have the RDS-2 70mm mini-missile launchers on them. The Defender and Phalanx both have the same lower torso as the Tomahawk so for those two Destriods to NOT have the 70mm mini-missile launchers is absurd. The outer legs of the Spartan defiantly have room to house the mini-missile launchers as well.

...and one last thing to note about the 70mm mini-missile launchers is that they appear to be based on the RL 70mm Hydra missile.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydra_70

[Seto Kaiba]

Ok, so has anyone updated the First Robotech war (Macross) era mecha with Sentinels campaign systems? [...]

Well, yes and no. Yes, I've tinkered with updates/upgrades for the 04 Series Destroid designs for my own games. The "No" comes in with the caveat that, apart from my first-ever session, I run my games in the original Macross setting rather than Robotech. Most of my games run in the Macross II alterniverse, where the original line of destroids were in common fleet use well into the 2030s, so we came up with some upgrades for 'em when we statted 'em, to go with various technological improvements that'd been made in the canon upgrades to the VF-1 and VF-4 series from that period.

My most recent project is a Macross Frontier-era game, and The Powers That Be at Studio Nue cheerfully dropped a 100% canon extensively-modernized original series destroid (a Defender series unit) in our laps back in 2011, so we had a nice blueprint for feasible modernizations of the other 04 Series Destroid units (the Tomahawk and Phalanx) right there.

Obviously I cannot offer any samplings of the game stats, due to forum rules.

Example the Gladiator...... Replacing the TZ IV gun cluster with a short range particle beam and autocannon, then replacing the short range missile 12 packs with 40 shot Mini missile systems?

Personally, I'd say the best approach to retrofitting the original Destroids to fight an enemy like the Invid that relies mainly upon swarming tactics would be to thin the herd from afar using area-of-effect weapons. Keep the gun cluster as-is, but opt for a longer-ranged, possibly self-propelled load with a shaped frag charge.

On a Tomahawk, I'd also swap out the beam guns mounted on the arms for something that either boasts a faster fire rate (e.g. Macross's Mk.IVc Tomahawk, which paired 55mm rotary cannons instead) or something like a scattering beam cannon that could be used against enemy formations and not just single targets. The last thing one would want to do when dealing with Invid would be to engage them up close where there superior numbers can be used to best advantage, which would make the Spartan a suicidal choice at best.

My thoughts are there is plenty of 1st RW veterans in the Expeditionary force that though they can be retrained on 2nd gen mecha have a preference for the older style. Another advantage is the older mecha use fusion reactors and not protoculture; a definitive plus in combating for the Regent's forces.

From a continuity standpoint, I'm not sure that second part would be justifiable, since the UEEF wasn't aware the Invid had the ability to track their protoculture power systems until like 2043, when they were studying the fragmented remains of the research conducted by Edwards.

I disagree with the whole 'IMUing' idea in regards to upgrading the gun clusters.

The older Destiods would have realistically had their gun clusters, and shoulder mounted missile launchers upgraded sometime in the mid to late 20 teens.

If they were still in service, mind. The Earth Forces in RT tend to go for low-impact upgrades or no upgrades at all on units that are destined to be replaced in the near future (e.g. the VF-1R).

[Jefffar]

70mm rockets have been in use for decades. The ones in Robotech are interesting as they are generally far shorter in length and in effective range. A move perhaps made to allow for the carriage of more of them in ground platforms where the added range was really a waste.

There are currently some experiments being made with guided 70mm rockets being launched from some surprisingly small ground vehicles.

[jedi078]

I disagree with the whole 'IMUing' idea in regards to upgrading the gun clusters.
The older Destiods would have realistically had their gun clusters, and shoulder mounted missile launchers upgraded sometime in the mid to late 20 teens.

If they were still in service, mind. The Earth Forces in RT tend to go for low-impact upgrades or no upgrades at all on units that are destined to be replaced in the near future (e.g. the VF-1R).

The Veritech hover tank had it's main armament upgraded. You call that a 'low impact upgrade'? I don't. So there is a precedent for the UEDF/UEEF to upgrade the gun clusters on the 1st Gen Destriods.

70mm rockets have been in use for decades. The ones in Robotech are interesting as they are generally far shorter in length and in effective range. A move perhaps made to allow for the carriage of more of them in ground platforms where the added range was really a waste.

There are currently some experiments being made with guided 70mm rockets being launched from some surprisingly small ground vehicles.

I prefer to go with the RL 70mm Hydra rocket over what we have in the book, because it has been in use for decades, has a better range, and stocks of the missile would be plentiful. Furthermore all we have the book in terms of stats is the diameter 70mm, and the weight, a length isn't noted.

[Seto Kaiba]

If they were still in service, mind. The Earth Forces in RT tend to go for low-impact upgrades or no upgrades at all on units that are destined to be replaced in the near future (e.g. the VF-1R).

The Veritech hover tank had it's main armament upgraded. You call that a 'low impact upgrade'? I don't. So there is a precedent for the UEDF/UEEF to upgrade the gun clusters on the 1st Gen Destriods.

Let's be frank, the Spartas never had a solid-ammo weapon and there was no upgrade... that much is obvious just from an eyes-on examination of the design. There's nowhere for that bloody tank to keep 60 105mm shells, and the barrel alone is enough to take up the entire arm mount. So, really, I call it a "nonexistent upgrade". That said, changing an external gun pod isn't all that major as upgrades go... which is exactly what the supposed Spartas upgrade is. There's a fair bit more work involved in re-engineering internal weapons systems, because you're under more constraints.

[jedi078]

If they were still in service, mind. The Earth Forces in RT tend to go for low-impact upgrades or no upgrades at all on units that are destined to be replaced in the near future (e.g. the VF-1R).

The Veritech hover tank had it's main armament upgraded. You call that a 'low impact upgrade'? I don't. So there is a precedent for the UEDF/UEEF to upgrade the gun clusters on the 1st Gen Destriods.

Let's be frank, the Spartas never had a solid-ammo weapon and there was no upgrade... that much is obvious just from an eyes-on examination of the design. There's nowhere for that bloody tank to keep 60 105mm shells, and the barrel alone is enough to take up the entire arm mount. So, really, I call it a "nonexistent upgrade". That said, changing an external gun pod isn't all that major as upgrades go... which is exactly what the supposed Spartas upgrade is. There's a fair bit more work involved in re-engineering internal weapons systems, because you're under more constraints.

Considering the fact that the gun cluster can be easily removed for maintenance there would not be a lot of work involved to create a different type of cluster and install it. Furthermore the nomenclature used 'TZ-IV' indicates there were types of gun clusters designed. So other then your opinion against it I don't see why a TZ-V, -VI, or -VII could be designed and installed.

[ArmySGT.]

Excellent, Thank you for the replies........

I didn't think about all the canon departures from one universe and one timeline............

As an aside............

Has anyone considered a detachment of the EBSIS to the REF? Frequently allied forces (happily or forced by circumstance) cross attach units to gain operational experience and inter Service cooperation........

Same thing with the Armies of the Southern Cross...

Seems like the REF could detail one converted Zentraedi scout ship to either for the initial mission to Tyrol.... That way each would have their own independent observers and can make their own assessments of enemy capabilities.....

So how do you refit and upgrade Cosmic Unit troopers to operate with REF supply chains? Same thing for the Soviets. How do the Soviets handle supply? Does the REF provide a scaled robotech factory aboard that make 23mm ammunition and other soviet munitions, or do they replace with REF equipment as Soviet equipment is destroyed or worn out? Also how do the Soviets handle REF colonization and the need to replace their own forces? Is there a soviet colonization effort aboard?

[Seto Kaiba]

Considering the fact that the gun cluster can be easily removed for maintenance [...]

Not sure where that's established... certainly not in any official material for either universe.

[...] there would not be a lot of work involved to create a different type of cluster and install it. [...]

Rather a lot more work than you think, but I may have a different perspective on it from my day job. It'd probably be light work if it was one gun instead of a cluster of four different kinds of weaponry, each with its own respective ammo supplies, feed systems, cooling systems, power requirements, etc. There's little common ground between a flamethrower, a grenade launcher, a heavy machinegun, and a megawatt laser. Designing a different gun cluster to go in that same volume means a fairly heavy set of constraints in the design process. This ain't exactly plug-and-play.

[...] Furthermore the nomenclature used 'TZ-IV' indicates there were types of gun clusters designed. So other then your opinion against it I don't see why a TZ-V, -VI, or -VII could be designed and installed.

Well, you really don't need to rely on nomenclature to know that there's more than one type of gun cluster out there. The Tomahawk's is a TZ-III, the Spartan's is a TZ-IV. There's nothing saying that you couldn't design a new gun cluster that'd fit in either unit's mount, but it'd a lot more work involved than changing up externally carried weaponry. (Besides, there's not actually precedent for upgrading of gun clusters... if there were, you'd expect the Tomahawks to be equipped with the same one as the Spartas.)

[jedi078]

Considering the fact that the gun cluster can be easily removed for maintenance [...]

Not sure where that's established... certainly not in any official material for either universe.

[...] there would not be a lot of work involved to create a different type of cluster and install it. [...]

Rather a lot more work than you think, but I may have a different perspective on it from my day job. It'd probably be light work if it was one gun instead of a cluster of four different kinds of weaponry, each with its own respective ammo supplies, feed systems, cooling systems, power requirements, etc. There's little common ground between a flamethrower, a grenade launcher, a heavy machinegun, and a megawatt laser. Designing a different gun cluster to go in that same volume means a fairly heavy set of constraints in the design process. This ain't exactly plug-and-play.

[...] Furthermore the nomenclature used 'TZ-IV' indicates there were types of gun clusters designed. So other then your opinion against it I don't see why a TZ-V, -VI, or -VII could be designed and installed.

Well, you really don't need to rely on nomenclature to know that there's more than one type of gun cluster out there. The Tomahawk's is a TZ-III, the Spartan's is a TZ-IV. There's nothing saying that you couldn't design a new gun cluster that'd fit in either unit's mount, but it'd a lot more work involved than changing up externally carried weaponry. (Besides, there's not actually precedent for upgrading of gun clusters... if there were, you'd expect the Tomahawks to be equipped with the same one as the Spartas.)

Before you make further comments, I highly suggest that you re-read the Tomahawk and Spartan entries in the Macross Saga Source book.

[ArmySGT.]

Ok, so has anyone updated the First Robotech war (Macross) era mecha with Sentinels campaign systems? [...]

Well, yes and no. Yes, I've tinkered with updates/upgrades for the 04 Series Destroid designs for my own games. The "No" comes in with the caveat that, apart from my first-ever session, I run my games in the original Macross setting rather than Robotech. Most of my games run in the Macross II alterniverse, where the original line of destroids were in common fleet use well into the 2030s, so we came up with some upgrades for 'em when we statted 'em, to go with various technological improvements that'd been made in the canon upgrades to the VF-1 and VF-4 series from that period.

I didn't consider the alternate timelines in my thinking or original question.... An assumption on my part that the core of players went Robotech, Southern Cross, Invid Invasion, Sentinels like myself. The other being options....

I always though that the Destroids would have been upgraded and that would have been reflected in later canon game books. Technology progresses fast in war as each side constantly adapts, trying to gain an advantage.

My most recent project is a Macross Frontier-era game, and The Powers That Be at Studio Nue cheerfully dropped a 100% canon extensively-modernized original series destroid (a Defender series unit) in our laps back in 2011, so we had a nice blueprint for feasible modernizations of the other 04 Series Destroid units (the Tomahawk and Phalanx) right there.

Obviously I cannot offer any samplings of the game stats, due to forum rules.

If it is ok, if you can link that here or send a PM, I would like to see it.

Example the Gladiator...... Replacing the TZ IV gun cluster with a short range particle beam and autocannon, then replacing the short range missile 12 packs with 40 shot Mini missile systems?

Personally, I'd say the best approach to retrofitting the original Destroids to fight an enemy like the Invid that relies mainly upon swarming tactics would be to thin the herd from afar using area-of-effect weapons. Keep the gun cluster as-is, but opt for a longer-ranged, possibly self-propelled load with a shaped frag charge.

I differ here. I see the Destroids as having a shorter ranged but, higher damaging weapons load out because other systems are dealing damage with large area effect weapons. I, however, believe there would be greater numbers of more conventional weapons in use. Something like mobile tracked Triple A would be cheaper, and less resource intensive to produce than the Raidar X. So I envision a Gepard or Tunguska with an MDC hull and MDC weapons systems produced for local defense. Something like a Paladin M109A6 or the Panzer Haubitze 2000 with MDC armor, MDC shells, and automation that reduces the crews to do the traditional artillery work of saturation (bombardment) of targets. I think that the Raidar X would become the number one mass produced mecha since the Invid generally fly with the Tomahawk being number two..... The TZ IVs replaced with rapid fire plasma weapons, as the fragmentation weapons seldom do enough damage to incapacitate an opposing mecha.

On a Tomahawk, I'd also swap out the beam guns mounted on the arms for something that either boasts a faster fire rate (e.g. Macross's Mk.IVc Tomahawk, which paired 55mm rotary cannons instead) or something like a scattering beam cannon that could be used against enemy formations and not just single targets. The last thing one would want to do when dealing with Invid would be to engage them up close where there superior numbers can be used to best advantage, which would make the Spartan a suicidal choice at best.

I wouldn't swap energy weapons for slug throwers for the reason that ammunition is not an issue for the energy weapons. I would change the nature of the energy weapons instead. Opting for a smaller diameter, lower yield, high rate of fire and mount them in twos or threes...

Something else like a tracked, wheeled, or hover mounted Multiple Missile system with a large load out of medium ranged missiles could engage invid swarms, after large long range energy system like sychro cannon had made themselves felt. The veritechs would swoop in and engage, then disengage. Finally the Destroids would engage those surviving and significantly reduced numbers of Invid that made it through to engage ground based key facilities or unit formations.

My thoughts are there is plenty of 1st RW veterans in the Expeditionary force that though they can be retrained on 2nd gen mecha have a preference for the older style. Another advantage is the older mecha use fusion reactors and not protoculture; a definitive plus in combating for the Regent's forces.

From a continuity standpoint, I'm not sure that second part would be justifiable, since the UEEF wasn't aware the Invid had the ability to track their protoculture power systems until like 2043, when they were studying the fragmented remains of the research conducted by Edwards.

I think they would have the fusion furnaces as that lessens the supply chain and the REF doesn't know initially where they are getting any more. However, I can see protoculture cells being integrated because of the piloting bonuses the protoculture effect causes, and as a backup power source to keep some systems alive if the plant is damaged and scrams.

I disagree with the whole 'IMUing' idea in regards to upgrading the gun clusters.

The older Destiods would have realistically had their gun clusters, and shoulder mounted missile launchers upgraded sometime in the mid to late 20 teens.

If they were still in service, mind. The Earth Forces in RT tend to go for low-impact upgrades or no upgrades at all on units that are destined to be replaced in the near future (e.g. the VF-1R).

Without statting them out...... What do you think would have replaced the Gun clusters?

[Seto Kaiba]

I didn't think about all the canon departures from one universe and one timeline............[...]

Oh, it can be a grand old mess sometimes... factor in old Robotech vs. rebooted Robotech, the various disowned variations thereof (comics, novels, etc.), the two official Macross universes and their various non-canon alterniverses and such, and you've got quite a smorgasbord to choose from.

Macross's two timelines really delve hard into the later service lives of the units from the first space war, since those universes aren't constrained by having combined three separate shows and has an almost obsessively detail-oriented staff that includes a guy who is literally there to come up with and ensure the consistency of all the nitty-gritty details of their technical continuity.

(The level of detail they get into is straightjacket-wearing insane sometimes, especially with the later service lives of the original series mecha. I could tell you exactly what changed between each of the VF-1's 17 production blocks.)

Same thing with the Armies of the Southern Cross...

In 2E, the Defense Forces (ASC) supposedly have a great big grudge against the Expeditionary Forces, so I can't see much in the way of cooperation happening. That grudge was supposedly a contributing factor in how the Defense Forces ended up equipped.

So how do you refit and upgrade Cosmic Unit troopers to operate with REF supply chains? Same thing for the Soviets.

The UEEF's preferred approach in the current Robotech continuity seems to be to adapt whatever isn't already using their standardized hardware to use their standardized hardware... e.g. the UEEF's Bioroid from Prelude. Once things blow up on Earth with the Masters or Invid invading, I imagine any reservations about simply replacing any EBSIS gear with UEEF standard hardware would disappear, since EBSIS itself would likely cease to exist fairly swiftly. (The enemy of my enemy is my friend, and all that.)

It's hard to say on the colony front, since EBSIS and similar factions don't actually exist in RT, outside the RPG. Even the UEEF doesn't seem to have actually gotten around to colonizing other worlds as of 2044, and likely never will now that their first class of unused colony ships have been made into WMDs and their second was obliterated except for one ship, which they've repurposed as a battleship.

[jedi078]

Without statting them out...... What do you think would have replaced the Gun clusters?

For a UEEF upgrade around the same time the Silverback was first fielded any of the modular rear equipment options could be used. Although by that time we'd have the Sentinel era Destriods in use.

For a mid 20 teens upgrade, you can also come up with all sorts of different combinations of weapons for alternate gun clusters. Replace the 25mm cannon with a 30mm, or even a 22.3mm so Zent ammo can be used. The 180mm mortar could be replaced by a Mk.19, or Mk.47 (both of which are 40mm automatic grenade launchers that are really heavy machine guns) which have a better range then the mortar. I'm not a fan of the flame thrower so use it as extra space for ammo. I don't see a need for a mini-missile launcher because we already have the RDS-2 box launchers on the legs.

[Seto Kaiba]

Before you make further comments, I highly suggest that you re-read the Tomahawk and Spartan entries in the Macross Saga Source book.

Sorry, perhaps I wasn't clear on the definition of "official source". The RPG ain't.

I didn't consider the alternate timelines in my thinking or original question.... An assumption on my part that the core of players went Robotech, Southern Cross, Invid Invasion, Sentinels like myself. The other being options....

There's a fair few blokes on here who use Palladium's 1e or 1e RT RPG as a starting point for the forbidden C-word WRT the original Macross. I'm one.

I always though that the Destroids would have been upgraded and that would have been reflected in later canon game books. Technology progresses fast in war as each side constantly adapts, trying to gain an advantage. [...]

Perhaps less so in RT, since the current position seems to be that there was bugger all in terms of technological advances implemented between 2022 and 2043. Humanity's in this weird pseudo-40K style situation where they don't really seem to have a complete understanding of their own technology, and a few techno-savants like Doctors Lang and Zand have their virtual monopoly on robotechnology know-how. The United Earth Forces in RT seem to favor wholesale replacement of an older unit once its replacement enters mass production, rather than keeping older units in service with upgrades along the way.

If it is ok, if you can link that here or send a PM, I would like to see it.

The destroid, or the crunchy bits?

I differ here. I see the Destroids as having a shorter ranged but, higher damaging weapons load out because other systems are dealing damage with large area effect weapons. I, however, believe there would be greater numbers of more conventional weapons in use.

Personally, I'd imagine that lower-tech self-propelled gun and missile platforms would be at a distinct disadvantage against high-mobility enemies like the Invid.

I wouldn't swap energy weapons for slug throwers for the reason that ammunition is not an issue for the energy weapons. I would change the nature of the energy weapons instead. Opting for a smaller diameter, lower yield, high rate of fire and mount them in twos or threes...

Energy weapons seem to be a big draw for the Invid though, since they require a large influx of power to operate and that's what the Invid home in on. Slugthrowers have their downsides, but they don't give away your position as readily as a beam cannon when active.

I think they would have the fusion furnaces as that lessens the supply chain and the REF doesn't know initially where they are getting any more. However, I can see protoculture cells being integrated because of the piloting bonuses the protoculture effect causes, and as a backup power source to keep some systems alive if the plant is damaged and scrams.

*shrug* As far as 2e and the official universe go, the "protoculture effect" isn't a thing anymore. You'd think that a fleet going into deep space would rely on fusion, since you can get hydrogen pretty much anywhere, but they went with using protoculture instead for some reason, while the defense forces used fusion and other lower-tech solutions. A lot of those destroids already have backup power systems, since the 2e spec is copied fairly comprehensively from the Macross OSM. IIRC, the Spartan's the only one that doesn't.

Without statting them out...... What do you think would have replaced the Gun clusters?

Hm... for RT? I would say probably some kind of pulsed laser or beam weapon similar to the actually-30mm rotary beam gun carried by the Alpha and Beta, possibly alone, or with a grenade launcher sub-weapon just for close-in defense and suppression of ground troops. (If this sounds familiar, you might be remembering the Tomahawk II from Macross II.)

[Alpha 11]

Ok, so has anyone updated the First Robotech war (Macross) era mecha with Sentinels campaign systems? [...]

Well, yes and no. Yes, I've tinkered with updates/upgrades for the 04 Series Destroid designs for my own games. The "No" comes in with the caveat that, apart from my first-ever session, I run my games in the original Macross setting rather than Robotech. Most of my games run in the Macross II alterniverse, where the original line of destroids were in common fleet use well into the 2030s, so we came up with some upgrades for 'em when we statted 'em, to go with various technological improvements that'd been made in the canon upgrades to the VF-1 and VF-4 series from that period.

My most recent project is a Macross Frontier-era game, and The Powers That Be at Studio Nue cheerfully dropped a 100% canon extensively-modernized original series destroid (a Defender series unit) in our laps back in 2011, so we had a nice blueprint for feasible modernizations of the other 04 Series Destroid units (the Tomahawk and Phalanx) right there.

Obviously I cannot offer any samplings of the game stats, due to forum rules.

Example the Gladiator...... Replacing the TZ IV gun cluster with a short range particle beam and autocannon, then replacing the short range missile 12 packs with 40 shot Mini missile systems?

Personally, I'd say the best approach to retrofitting the original Destroids to fight an enemy like the Invid that relies mainly upon swarming tactics would be to thin the herd from afar using area-of-effect weapons. Keep the gun cluster as-is, but opt for a longer-ranged, possibly self-propelled load with a shaped frag charge.

On a Tomahawk, I'd also swap out the beam guns mounted on the arms for something that either boasts a faster fire rate (e.g. Macross's Mk.IVc Tomahawk, which paired 55mm rotary cannons instead) or something like a scattering beam cannon that could be used against enemy formations and not just single targets. The last thing one would want to do when dealing with Invid would be to engage them up close where there superior numbers can be used to best advantage, which would make the Spartan a suicidal choice at best.

My thoughts are there is plenty of 1st RW veterans in the Expeditionary force that though they can be retrained on 2nd gen mecha have a preference for the older style. Another advantage is the older mecha use fusion reactors and not protoculture; a definitive plus in combating for the Regent's forces.

From a continuity standpoint, I'm not sure that second part would be justifiable, since the UEEF wasn't aware the Invid had the ability to track their protoculture power systems until like 2043, when they were studying the fragmented remains of the research conducted by Edwards.

I disagree with the whole 'IMUing' idea in regards to upgrading the gun clusters.

The older Destiods would have realistically had their gun clusters, and shoulder mounted missile launchers upgraded sometime in the mid to late 20 teens.

If they were still in service, mind. The Earth Forces in RT tend to go for low-impact upgrades or no upgrades at all on units that are destined to be replaced in the near future (e.g. the VF-1R).

Since we can't see them here, can you PM me them, I would LOVE to see them!

[Jefffar]

I prefer to go with the RL 70mm Hydra rocket over what we have in the book, because it has been in use for decades, has a better range, and stocks of the missile would be plentiful. Furthermore all we have the book in terms of stats is the diameter 70mm, and the weight, a length isn't noted.

The diameter in the book is speculative, but I will still say they aren't the same rocket because the real 70mm Rocket looks very little like the missiles we see being fired from robotech box launchers.

[jedi078]

I prefer to go with the RL 70mm Hydra rocket over what we have in the book, because it has been in use for decades, has a better range, and stocks of the missile would be plentiful. Furthermore all we have the book in terms of stats is the diameter 70mm, and the weight, a length isn't noted.

The diameter in the book is speculative, but I will still say they aren't the same rocket because the real 70mm Rocket looks very little like the missiles we see being fired from robotech box launchers.

Do we even see the box launchers being used on screen?

Regardless if we do (or don't), each box can easily house 70mm Hydra's.

[Seto Kaiba]

Do we even see the box launchers being used on screen?

Yes, a few times during the Daedalus Attack. Other than that, not s'much.

Regardless if we do (or don't), each box can easily house 70mm Hydra's.

I'd have to pull the measurements of the actual missiles in question (will do that tomorrow), but I doubt it, honestly.

[ArmySGT.]

along the lines of a refit........ so the armor composites obviously become better as Alphas and Cyclones have MDC comparable to 1e mecha........

and not stats rule applies......

So by % how much would you raise the MDC of 1st RW mecha for a refit that operates in the Sentinels or Shadow Chronicles game?

[jedi078]

Regardless if we do (or don't), each box can easily house 70mm Hydra's.

I'd have to pull the measurements of the actual missiles in question (will do that tomorrow), but I doubt it, honestly.

If the boxes on the side of the Tomahawk's legs are longer than 42 inches, then each 'box' can easily house a M260 70mm rocket pod.

So by % how much would you raise the MDC of 1st RW mecha for a refit that operates in the Sentinels or Shadow Chronicles game?

It wouldn't be a refit, but a completely different model. Not sure if the UEEF would do that.

[ArmySGT.]

So by % how much would you raise the MDC of 1st RW mecha for a refit that operates in the Sentinels or Shadow Chronicles game?

It wouldn't be a refit, but a completely different model. Not sure if the UEEF would do that.

No, that would be a refit, the A1, A2, A3 model......

Like an M1A2 has more Chobham armor, a larger main gun, and a more powerful but, more fuel efficient turbine... then the original M1 Abrams. if a 8 gallons per mile turbine could be called efficient at all.

[ShadowLogan]

I disagree with the whole 'IMUing' idea in regards to upgrading the gun clusters.
The older Destiods would have realistically had their gun clusters, and shoulder mounted missile launchers upgraded sometime in the mid to late 20 teens.

If they were still in service, mind. The Earth Forces in RT tend to go for low-impact upgrades or no upgrades at all on units that are destined to be replaced in the near future (e.g. the VF-1R).

The Veritech hover tank had it's main armament upgraded. You call that a 'low impact upgrade'? I don't. So there is a precedent for the UEDF/UEEF to upgrade the gun clusters on the 1st Gen Destriods.

I don't want to get dragged into this, but will point out that Seto said the low-impact upgrades are for units that are going to be replaced shortly, in the case of the Spartas there is nothing to indicate it was on the way out. I don't recall anything about a VHT-3 program in the first 4 volumes of the 2E RPG, and the VHT-2 is as old as the VHT-1 (by the 2E RPG specific canon).

In that light you are comparing a project that was a SLEP (VF-1R) intended for a short duration to an upgrade of indeterminate length (VHT-1). The examples also occurred in different time periods (201x's vs 2029-30), which could have different priorities and political support for what gets done in the way of official updates.

Ok, so has anyone updated the First Robotech war (Macross) era mecha with Sentinels campaign systems?

Within the 1E RPG canon, No we never upgraded the mecha. We really didn't use Destroids much.

Within the 2E RPG canon and the show, it really does look like the Destroid concept was abandoned in favor of Veritechs (VHTs, Silverbacks releatives), nt-battloids, and conventional vehicles IMHO.

[Seto Kaiba]

along the lines of a refit........ so the armor composites obviously become better as Alphas and Cyclones have MDC comparable to 1e mecha........

Welcome to the wonderful world of power creep. Both in terms of their correct/actual spec and their demonstrated combat performance, Palladium's stats for both are more than slightly exaggerated. (If one were to go about correcting it all, like I have, one would find that there are no MDC personal weapons and no MDC body armor, not even on the Cyclone.)

So by % how much would you raise the MDC of 1st RW mecha for a refit that operates in the Sentinels or Shadow Chronicles game?

1st RW-era in 2E? Probably about 40-50%. (And if you think that sounds excessive, you should see the change that gets made if you scale the RT versions against the OSM versions. There's a lot of zeroes there.)

If the boxes on the side of the Tomahawk's legs are longer than 42 inches, then each 'box' can easily house a M260 70mm rocket pod.

Then, on that basis, we can safely state that the boxes on the Tomahawk's legs are too small to accept a M260 pod. The boxes, whose purpose is never stated, measure approximately 36 inches in length by 19 1/2 inches high at maximum cross-section, based on the multiview orthographic drawings of the Tomahawk Mk.VI in the Kazutaka Miyatake design works book for Macross and Orguss... which can be found on page 8 of said book.

(Incidentally, I see what you meant about the gun clusters. The 2E RPG has an error in it, listing the Tomahawk as having the same gun cluster as the Spartan, and using incorrectly/inaccurately traced line art of the Spartan's gun cluster, which appears to be missing the laser barrel. The Spartan's TZ-IV gun cluster actually contains 1 laser, 1 32mm machine gun, 1 180mm grenade launcher, 1 12.7mm machine gun, and 1 flamethrower. The Tomahawk's TZ-III gun cluster only contains 4 weapons: the laser, a 25mm machine gun, the 180mm grenade launcher, and flamethrower.)

Within the 2E RPG canon and the show, it really does look like the Destroid concept was abandoned in favor of Veritechs (VHTs, Silverbacks releatives), nt-battloids, and conventional vehicles IMHO.

's one thing I've found interesting while running a Macross Frontier game... the destroids, which were all but forgotten after Macross II, are suddenly making a comeback in recent years. The VB-6 König Monster, the Cheyenne II, and the ADR-04-Mk.XV S-Defender are just the tip of the iceberg.

[jedi078]

If the boxes on the side of the Tomahawk's legs are longer than 42 inches, then each 'box' can easily house a M260 70mm rocket pod.

Then, on that basis, we can safely state that the boxes on the Tomahawk's legs are too small to accept a M260 pod. The boxes, whose purpose is never stated, measure approximately 36 inches in length by 19 1/2 inches high at maximum cross-section, based on the multiview orthographic drawings of the Tomahawk Mk.VI in the Kazutaka Miyatake design works book for Macross and Orguss... which can be found on page 8 of said book.

You going to post and back up these findings with something other than words?

Regardless, I don't think it wouldn't be an issue to replace those boxes with armored carriers for M260 pods. Besides what would you rather have? 8 crappy missiles with a range of about a mile (which I doubt most players don't even use), or 28 with a range of 8000 meters which can be used for all sorts of applications? Launch a whole pod's worth of missiles to saturate and area, carry a few smoke missile to mark targets for close air support, etc etc etc.

(Incidentally, I see what you meant about the gun clusters. The 2E RPG has an error in it, listing the Tomahawk as having the same gun cluster as the Spartan, and using incorrectly/inaccurately traced line art of the Spartan's gun cluster, which appears to be missing the laser barrel. The Spartan's TZ-IV gun cluster actually contains 1 laser, 1 32mm machine gun, 1 180mm grenade launcher, 1 12.7mm machine gun, and 1 flamethrower. The Tomahawk's TZ-III gun cluster only contains 4 weapons: the laser, a 25mm machine gun, the 180mm grenade launcher, and flamethrower.)

I was referring to the fact that they can be easily moved for maintenance, and as such installing a different type of gun cluster wouldn't be too hard. As for the two mecha having the same gun cluster that's just laziness on the part of the writer. The range on the 25mm cannon is too short for such a weapon system, because today's M242 Bushmaster has a max effective range of 3000 meters.

[Seto Kaiba]

[...] based on the multiview orthographic drawings of the Tomahawk Mk.VI in the Kazutaka Miyatake design works book for Macross and Orguss... which can be found on page 8 of said book.

You going to post and back up these findings with something other than words?

Eh? I've already told you what source, precisely, I referred to when estimating the dimensions of the "boxes" in question... what more do you want? You know exactly where to look. If it helps, the way I measured from the art was to use a scan of the page with the multiview orthographic drawings, and used Photoshop's measuring tools to compute the scale in terms of centimeters per pixel (3.557cm/px), the box's measurements were 14px tall (19.69" in scale) and 26px long (36.4") when measured from the art.

Regardless, I don't think it wouldn't be an issue to replace those boxes with armored carriers for M260 pods. Besides what would you rather have? [...]

I'd rather have those boxes fitted with mini-missiles with Macross-original stats instead of Palladium's watered-down, NERF-level mini-missile stats. 'course, since I run mostly Macross games with accurate stats rather than RT games with RAW, I can have my cake and eat it too. The M260 is pretty much a glorified sparkler by comparison.

[jedi078]

[...] based on the multiview orthographic drawings of the Tomahawk Mk.VI in the Kazutaka Miyatake design works book for Macross and Orguss... which can be found on page 8 of said book.

You going to post and back up these findings with something other than words?

Eh? I've already told you what source, precisely, I referred to when estimating the dimensions of the "boxes" in question... what more do you want? You know exactly where to look. If it helps, the way I measured from the art was to use a scan of the page with the multiview orthographic drawings, and used Photoshop's measuring tools to compute the scale in terms of centimeters per pixel (3.557cm/px), the box's measurements were 14px tall (19.69" in scale) and 26px long (36.4") when measured from the art.

You've told me but haven't shown me....nor anyone else on the forum..

[Seto Kaiba]

You've told me but haven't shown me....nor anyone else on the forum..

You have all the information you need if you want to go double-check my work. If you want pretty info-graphics to go with your facts, please consult your local FedEx Office or similar venue. It's not my policy, nor my habit, to publicly post full page art book scans.

[jaymz]

I HAVE done upgrades of said 1st gen destroids.

They DID go with the REF/UEEF.

Basically it was just upgrades to armour plating, updated weapons/ammo/electronics.

[Jefffar]

The big question for me is, how many UEDF mecha really did go with the UEEF forces? As a general rule the UEDF mecha are less space efficient than their UEEF counterparts, a major consideration for a force that must bring all their equipment and spare parts with them out into deep space. The artillery destroids in particular strike me as unnecessary as their jobs could be performed by a mixture of the supporting starships and much smaller and cheaper conventional vehicles.

[jaymz]

The big question for me is, how many UEDF mecha really did go with the UEEF forces? As a general rule the UEDF mecha are less space efficient than their UEEF counterparts, a major consideration for a force that must bring all their equipment and spare parts with them out into deep space. The artillery destroids in particular strike me as unnecessary as their jobs could be performed by a mixture of the supporting starships and much smaller and cheaper conventional vehicles.

Depends on just how "isolated" one thinks the UEEF forces really were when they left.

[Seto Kaiba]

The big question for me is, how many UEDF mecha really did go with the UEEF forces?

Varies by adaptation. From the available official information on the aborted Sentinels series, it seems that they didn't bother bringing along any 1st Generation UEDF hardware. They had Alphas and purpose-built successor land units. In the comic continuation/adaptation thereof, from start to finish, the UEEF is shown as having large numbers of things like VF-1s and Hovertanks. The scenes from those comics that were reused for Prelude replaced those VF-1s and Hovertanks with Alphas and Cyclones, so presumably we're back to "None at all", probably for copyright reasons as much as narrative ones.

As a general rule the UEDF mecha are less space efficient than their UEEF counterparts, a major consideration for a force that must bring all their equipment and spare parts with them out into deep space. [...]

An acknowledged fault with the UEEF's more space-efficient designs is that they sacrifice a good deal of their operational versatility. Hence the UEEF's need to carry, in addition to their Alphas, a separate non-variable fighter for heavy missiles and other large ordinance (the Conbat), which was later replaced by a glorified FAST pack to make the Alpha less anemic when operating as a space fighter.

The artillery destroids in particular strike me as unnecessary as their jobs could be performed by a mixture of the supporting starships and much smaller and cheaper conventional vehicles.

's probably on the mark. Orbital artillery to soften the target (shown, at various points, and hinted at in the RPG with the SDF-4), then leave the roles that used to belong to Destroids to things like the Silverback.

[jedi078]

You've told me but haven't shown me....nor anyone else on the forum..

You have all the information you need if you want to go double-check my work. If you want pretty info-graphics to go with your facts, please consult your local FedEx Office or similar venue. It's not my policy, nor my habit, to publicly post full page art book scans.

Well since your findings cannot be validated they really can’t be proved and thus mean nothing. What’s funny is that this is not the first time I’ve called you out to prove something and you’ve failed to do so.

The big question for me is, how many UEDF mecha really did go with the UEEF forces? As a general rule the UEDF mecha are less space efficient than their UEEF counterparts, a major consideration for a force that must bring all their equipment and spare parts with them out into deep space. The artillery destroids in particular strike me as unnecessary as their jobs could be performed by a mixture of the supporting starships and much smaller and cheaper conventional vehicles.

Depends on just how "isolated" one thinks the UEEF forces really were when they left.

Personally I think the UEEF took the Factory Satellite captured in 2013 with them as well as a number of Zentraedi warships that served in myriad of roles (Carriers, Troop Ships, Logistics etc, etc etc). Also 'Space Station Liberty' as seen in Shadow Chronicles was probably a factory captured at a later date (it looks nothing like the one captured in 2013) and sent back to Earth. IIRC Art of Shadow Chronicles mentions that the UEEF captured five Robotech Factories.

Furthermore the UEEF did send a fleet out as early as 2014/2015, as apparent by Major Carpenters return to Earth in 2029/2030 during the second Robotech war. Thus those early UEEF fleets probably had 1st gen Destroids with them.

[Seto Kaiba]

Well since your findings cannot be validated they really can’t be proved and thus mean nothing. What’s funny is that this is not the first time I’ve called you out to prove something and you’ve failed to do so.

I'll confess I find this remark of yours vaguely comical at best, verging on the realm of a personal attack that should be reported to the moderators. My findings can be easily substantiated by anyone with five minutes and a copy of MS Paint. Laziness on your part does not constitute an error or disingenuity on mine. I gave you the specifics of where my information came from AND the method my findings were reached by. If the publication title and page number are insufficient for you, I can give you the book's ISBN number too.

[Jefffar]

I think that perhaps folks should take a moment to chill out on this one before I have to get too moderator.

[Seto Kaiba]

[...] Anyway, your two best sources for upgraded Destroid designs are the old Sentinels book and Macross II. But if you want some form of current system uprated designs, the IMU design rules are your best bet. [...]

I think the latter is more what the OP's looking for... updates, upgrades, and other modifications that could be used to keep the original Tomahawk, Defender, Phalanx, Spartan, and Monster in service after the 1st RW. The destroid designs from the aborted Sentinels project and the unrelated Macross II: Lovers Again OVA are entirely new mecha, not upgrades to the existing platforms.

(As a side note, I think the Macross II ones would provide some fairly significant continuity problems. As of RTSC, it wasn't until 2043-2044 that humanity started incorporating railguns into its mecha. Using the Macross II destroids in the period following the 1st RW would be throwing much more powerful railguns into the mix twenty or more years early... 'bout the only one that doesn't have some form of railgun is the Phalanx Custom.

Now wasn't that an easy fix without all of this constant mucking about which canon is better then whose?

Surprisingly enough, nobody was doing that. A few people have noted that you get a different answer depending on what continuity you're looking at, but that's all. There are some folks who still use 1e, some who prefer 2e, some who come up with their own home rules and such, y'know.

[jedi078]

(As a side note, I think the Macross II ones would provide some fairly significant continuity problems. As of RTSC, it wasn't until 2043-2044 that humanity started incorporating railguns into its mecha. Using the Macross II destroids in the period following the 1st RW would be throwing much more powerful railguns into the mix twenty or more years early... 'bout the only one that doesn't have some form of railgun is the Phalanx Custom.

Except that we now have the Zent Officer's pod equipped with 44mm rail cannon's as the lower forearm weapons. Not only does this mean the UEDF can reverse engineer the 44mm rail gun for their own purposes (i.e. an upgraded Destriod gun cluster can feature a 44mm rail gun), but they can design and incorporate other smaller rail guns (i.e. the 20mm rail guns) much earlier then 2043-2044.

[Seto Kaiba]

Except that we now have the Zent Officer's pod equipped with 44mm rail cannon's as the lower forearm weapons.

Hm... you have a point there. I'd forgotten that the RPG misidentified the impact cannons on the arms as railguns there. I think it might be a bit OP letting the UEEF have a destroid the size of an Alpha that has four anti-capital ship railguns. Now that I think on it, would they be able to power it? RT protoculture power systems seem to be lower output than the OSM's thermonuclear reaction power systems (which get pretty obscene in their stated outputs). Maybe that's why they UEEF is using mostly rapid-fire low-output railguns?

EDIT: Meh, that's kind of a silly question. Protoculture does whatever the plot demands, after all.

[jedi078]

Except that we now have the Zent Officer's pod equipped with 44mm rail cannon's as the lower forearm weapons.

Hm... you have a point there. I'd forgotten that the RPG misidentified the impact cannons on the arms as railguns there.

I don't think it was misidentified, but a way to work railguns into Robotech. Besides rail gun tech goes back as far as WWII and the only issues has been power. Toss in protoculture an yeah power is no longer a concern.

[RiverJack]

Except that we now have the Zent Officer's pod equipped with 44mm rail cannon's as the lower forearm weapons.

Hm... you have a point there. I'd forgotten that the RPG misidentified the impact cannons on the arms as railguns there.

I don't think it was misidentified, but a way to work railguns into Robotech. Besides rail gun tech goes back as far as WWII and the only issues has been power. Toss in protoculture an yeah power is no longer a concern.

If the Rail-guns in Robotech really require googoobs of energy to power them they are better off using Laser weaponry. However much energy you put into the lasing process is how powerful the Laser will be except free electron lasers which I feel are a waste of time producing.

[Seto Kaiba]

I don't think it was misidentified, but a way to work railguns into Robotech. [...]

I dunno, a lot of the Zentradi weaponry was identified incorrectly... sometimes in really head-scratching ways.

Besides rail gun tech goes back as far as WWII and the only issues has been power. Toss in protoculture an yeah power is no longer a concern.

On the scale that RT seems to do mecha in the post-1st RW eras, they seem to be going more for long term field endurance than raw output. Really massive artillery railguns are more of a power-intensive thing, opposed to their usual strategy which prizes high rate-of-fire and compactness over brute stopping power (e.g. the railguns on the Super Cyclone and Silverback, or the Alpha's beam rifle).

EDIT: On an unrelated note, since my staff artist was looking for something to do, I asked him to crop and clean the piece I used for estimating the Tomahawk's leg pack dimensions. You can view it here. The source is Kazutaka Mitayake Design Works: Macross & Orguss, page 8, right column, bottom half.

[Pouncer]

Well, then let's look at what we can do with IMUs.

Tomahawk-The primary issue the Tomahawk has is its limited rate of fire on the main particle cannon, and a lack of ammunition for all of the guns. The autocannons, mortars, head mounted machine guns, the mini missiles and SRM modules will run out after killing potentially 5 to 10 Invid.

IMU Solution-Remove the SRM mounts on the chest, plus the six rack on the shoulder. Replace with 2 Alpha SRM packs + an SRM pod from the Silverback. For the gun clusters, remove the flame throwers and the lasers, and mount 2 EP-60 beam rifles connected to the main reactor. Keep the autocannon and the mortar for rapid fire shots and short range AOE capacity. Swap out the PBCs for the ones mounted on the Glaug's arms, and you get a lot more firepower at the cost of range. I'm not as big of a fan of the last swap, but rapid fire appears to be to the design focus. Use the MDC increases from my last post.

Spartan-No guns to shoot people with, just lots of LRMs.
IMU Solution-Add two of the EU-13 gunpods/fixed cannons from the Alpha or the Beta, one to each shoulder. Set them to always fire bursts. Use the MDC increase from my last post.

Gladiator-Lack of long range firepower, same issues as the Tomahawk with the gun cluster.
Solution-Swap out the SRMs for Alpha SRM mounts, let it carry the particle beam from the Condor, and perform the same swap out as the Tomahawk on the the laser and the flamethrower for the gun cluster. Remove the head turret and replace it with the dual railgun mount on the Silverback. Use the MDC increase from my last post.

Defender-Runs of out of ammo killing Invid, but it will take a lot with them. No secondary weapons.
IMU Solution-Keep cannon and radar dish. Mount 1 Alpha SRM Cluster on the main torso, and mount one EU-13 gunpod (or two in one mount) on the shoulder, below the radome. Use the MDC increase from my last post.

MAC II-No secondary weapons, ammunition gets used up fast.
IMU solution-Replace the missile launchers with 3 PBCs from the Tomahawk, the shoulder cannon on the Zentraedi power armor, or the Glaug's main gun. Or mount 1 Glaug railgun and 2 PBCs from the Regult or the Glaug. Add nuclear/reflex/reaction shells to the list (use long range missile stats with medium or heavy reflex warheads equipped as smart rounds). Increase MDC by 15%.

I did some similar things when I updated the sentinals versions of the Destroids.

Big similarities with the Gladiator - made the shoulder cannons similar to the Bioroid Interceptor and made it the original design to the carry the Condor's beam cannon (though most pilots prefered the EU - 13 due to it's better range).

For the little monster rail guns in place of the cannons.

[ShadowLogan]

(As a side note, I think the Macross II ones would provide some fairly significant continuity problems. As of RTSC, it wasn't until 2043-2044 that humanity started incorporating railguns into its mecha. Using the Macross II destroids in the period following the 1st RW would be throwing much more powerful railguns into the mix twenty or more years early... 'bout the only one that doesn't have some form of railgun is the Phalanx Custom.

PER 2E RPG canon, humans do have rail guns prior to this. The Tri-star ship has railguns (TRM), NG SB has a hand=held Railgun (so a Cyclone, Infantry, or ASC PA could use it prior to 2043-4, no dates are given but since it is supposed to be connected to Nader it could be pretty old), and the SDF-1 has railguns. Then you have any recovered railguns from Zentreadi mecha that might be retro-fitted. So mounting and or miniaturizing the technology is clearly within reach prior to 2043.

The Silverback's railgun is basically a double barrel version of the Super Cyclone's, and both mecha are fairly small compared to other available mecha (w/the exception of the ASC PA suits). That would allow the larger mecha to have larger caliber railguns prior to the Silverback/Super Cyclone effort from a technology development standpoint.

Railgun tech would help make the Spartas Main Cannon as a projectile weapon more believable, since a good portion of the size of the 105mm shell in real-life would not be needed (propellant case) allowing one to reduce the length of the overall round and make it easier to fit rounds. More advanced materials being involved could also do the same (or compound with it).

I think it might be a bit OP letting the UEEF have a destroid the size of an Alpha that has four anti-capital ship railguns.

Monster Destroid (dwarfs a Beta in size): replace the 40cm conventional cannons with rail cannons (as it had in the novels), probably replace the missile tubes in the arms also (something less energy intensive for rapid fire and probably side ejecting light missiles).

The smaller Destroids might not have the power to spare for a railgun of that size and quantity and have railguns sized for less energy intensive missions dictated by their available energy generation capacity.

I don't think it was misidentified, but a way to work railguns into Robotech.

Well Railguns had already been worked into the current RT as weapon systems on the Tri-star and SDF-1. It would probably be a way to make the technology more pronounced in the current continuity.

[Seto Kaiba]

PER 2E RPG canon, humans do have rail guns prior to this. The Tri-star ship has railguns (TRM), NG SB has a hand=held Railgun (so a Cyclone, Infantry, or ASC PA could use it prior to 2043-4, no dates are given but since it is supposed to be connected to Nader it could be pretty old), and the SDF-1 has railguns. [...]

Two significant issues with this. First, the starship-scale railguns are rather a different animal since they can rely upon the massive output of a ship's reflex furnaces to supply power to them. Second, the compact railguns seen on the Silverback's main model and the Super Cyclone are almost certainly very recent developments. The Super Cyclone unit we see Vince in was a test unit in 2044, and the Silverback was a new introduction with the very latest weaponry when it was rolled out in 2044 for the raid on Edwards' base of operations on Optera. If anything, using those as examples suggests the opposite of what you're saying... that railguns are a very recent addition to mechanized infantry-scale operations in the UEEF in 2044's operating conditions. Giving the UEDF/UEEF a destroid equipped with four, much more powerful railguns would probably land firmly in the realm of OP-as-all-get-out, and a continuity-breaker.

Then you have any recovered railguns from Zentreadi mecha that might be retro-fitted. So mounting and or miniaturizing the technology is clearly within reach prior to 2043.

That raises another interesting question... we only ever see railguns attached to protoculture-powered mecha. Does that mean that the fusion plants and other alternative engines are insufficient to power them?

Railgun tech would help make the Spartas Main Cannon as a projectile weapon more believable, [...]

While I don't disagree that it would help the plausibility of the impossible solid ammo gun on the Spartas, railgun tech does not appear to have been part of humanity's repertoire that early.

Monster Destroid (dwarfs a Beta in size): replace the 40cm conventional cannons with rail cannons (as it had in the novels), probably replace the missile tubes in the arms also (something less energy intensive for rapid fire and probably side ejecting light missiles).

Well, yeah... that's the novels, which are an entity unto themselves. The RT2 destroids aren't a thing anymore, and that leaves the Monster in conventional cannon territory. At least, until Macross's games rolled in with the VB-6, which mounted four smaller bore railguns.

The smaller Destroids might not have the power to spare for a railgun of that size and quantity and have railguns sized for less energy intensive missions dictated by their available energy generation capacity.

If that fit with the prevailing UEDF/UEEF tactical doctrine... between 2015 and 2043 they seemed to be generally moving away from solid ammo weapons entirely. Infantry weapons are all energy-based, fighters rely on energy weapons for the gun pods and built-in weapons, etc.

[ShadowLogan]

If anything, using those as examples suggests the opposite of what you're saying... that railguns are a very recent addition to mechanized infantry-scale operations in the UEEF in 2044's operating conditions. Giving the UEDF/UEEF a destroid equipped with four, much more powerful railguns would probably land firmly in the realm of OP-as-all-get-out, and a continuity-breaker.

I agree near human-scale infantry operations are a recent receiver of Rail Gun tech, but the intermediate scale between starships (SDF-1/Tri-star) and human-scale (Cyc/SB-PAs) has not been touched (in human inventory) formally allowing for them to exist at this scale.

It's like the UED/EF went from '1940s era room-filling Vacuum-Tube computers to 2010s era pocket transistor computers in smart phones without any intermediate products in ~40years. Given that Railgun tech likely was in development before the Vistor crashed in '99, the tech itself should be more mature. It only needs a compact man-portable power source for infantry use (larger mecha should be easier to do, though not as easy as starships).

That raises another interesting question... we only ever see railguns attached to protoculture-powered mecha. Does that mean that the fusion plants and other alternative engines are insufficient to power them?

This still comes back to the surplus energy the mecha is capable of generating. That would allow any source to be used to power the rail gun technically, where it would differ is in rates of fire. Even then the power needed would vary for the intended role (and desired performance of) the railgun.

While I don't disagree that it would help the plausibility of the impossible solid ammo gun on the Spartas, railgun tech does not appear to have been part of humanity's repertoire that early.

Have HG clarify what the infopedia means by a "105mm high velocity cannon" (even PB could clarify what the evolution aspect is in their writeup) for the VHT-1 and how they can hold 60rnds. Railgun aspect seems the most plausible in this role.

And said technology is part of humanity's repertoire as we know the Tri-star and SDF-1 used the tech (VHT was developed in between them). What we really lack is confirmed examples of the tech in use at other scales until some 15years after the VHT-1 is last seen in action, about all we can do is list possible candidates that could be examples of such.

[RiverJack]

This still comes back to the surplus energy the mecha is capable of generating. That would allow any source to be used to power the rail gun technically, where it would differ is in rates of fire. Even then the power needed would vary for the intended role (and desired performance of) the railgun.

Whats interesting is that the Gladius and the prototype for the Alpha had a Railgun pod, it was considered a failure because of energy surges. They may have gotten better results if they mounted the Railguns on a MAC or Tiger but as it is it appears that making generators for Railguns at the time was tricky and had a long ways to go until they could make them reliable.

[Seto Kaiba]

I agree near human-scale infantry operations are a recent receiver of Rail Gun tech, but the intermediate scale between starships (SDF-1/Tri-star) and human-scale (Cyc/SB-PAs) has not been touched (in human inventory) formally allowing for them to exist at this scale.

Apart from their demonstrable absence, you mean? I'd class the Silverback much closer to the Alpha and its kin than to a Cyclone. Development of a viable, mecha-scale railgun didn't get anywhere until the mid-2040s, according to what RTSC material shows us. Prelude's Vince Grant makes something of a meal of humanity's technological know-how lagging behind the other races of the galaxy, so it wouldn't be surprising if humanity were unable to duplicate alien railgun tech in the years following the 1st and 2nd RWs.

Given that Railgun tech likely was in development before the Vistor crashed in '99, the tech itself should be more mature.

We really can't/shouldn't make that assumption, since all available evidence points to Robotech's universe being much different from our own in terms of history and technical progression.

It only needs a compact man-portable power source for infantry use (larger mecha should be easier to do, though not as easy as starships).

That's assuming that mecha made by humans generate enough power to make railguns a viable alternative to conventional guns and/or the low-output beam weaponry that's common in RT. If the OSM is any indicator (and it ALWAYS is, based on SOP for RT material), the mecha of Robotech operate on a much lower power output than their counterparts from the Macross universe. We're talking something on a similar scale to Gundam, with megawatt-scale output instead of Macross's multi-gigawatt outputs. (The Alpha's generator output would be, based on available data, roughly 3.05MW peak output, vs. the Macross VF-1's stated 1,300MW, or the VF-2SS's 3,900MW.)

With the mecha of preceding sagas using conventional nuclear fusion, and the Alpha's protoculture power plant generating only about 3 megawatts, it's entirely likely that the massive amount of energy needed to make anti-mecha railguns a thing simply wasn't available until the widespread application of protoculture power systems on infantry mecha (late 2030s).

In any event, it's not just a continuity issue introducing something like a Defender EX or Giant Monster to a Sentinels era Robotech setting... it's a question of performance. The state-of-the-art railgun available in 2044 is not really an overwhelmingly powerful weapon. It's basically got the performance of an anti-materiel rifle, but the rate of fire of a light machine gun. The railguns used on the Macross II destroids are in a whole other league... lobbing much larger shells out at 7 times the speed. We're talking a difference in power requirements and destructive potential that's off by orders of magnitude.

I actually don't use any railguns on anything smaller than the SDF-1 and the Tristar. All other references to such weapons are changed to being energy weapons instead.

Except for the Silverback and Super Cyclone, the weapons identified as mecha-scale railguns are all actually energy weapons anyway... the Glaug's, for instance, are just smaller-bore versions of the impact cannons situated directly above what the RPG asserts are railguns.

I don't buy that the weapon Lunk used was a railgun, anymore than I can accept the sudden appearance of a Rifts like burst fire railgun on the Super Cyclone and Silverback.

In context, the Silverback and Super Cyclone railguns aren't all that impressive... they're only about twice the power of a Cold War-era Russian 14.5mm machine gun. Not surprising they'd need to be carried by a powered exoskeleton (the guns were made into an AA platform because they were too heavy for regular infantry), but not that intimidating nonetheless.


Thus far, what I've done for upgrades to the destroids from the first space war in my Macross Frontier game is: (apart from the blanket modernization of onboard power plants, armor materials, etc.)

Directly implemented the ADR-04-Mk.XV S-Defender from Macross the Ride, which replaces the old 78mm twin-linked anti-aircraft guns with a pair of modern 35mm rotary cannons using the latest HEACA ammunition, and builds in the latest actuator technologies and fire control AI. It also gains about 60 micro-missiles in four launchers added to the gun mounts.

Replaced the HWR-00 line with the VB-6 König Monster (EX-Gear upgrade specification).

Upgraded the Tomahawk's main armament into two configurations... one sporting a pair of high-output beam machine guns, the other supporting a pair of modified 58mm rotary cannons ala the old Mk.IVc. The gun clusters, we left as-is, but fitted with the latest ammunition and a higher-powered pulse laser. The searchlight got axed in favor of a second missile mount.

We tossed the Phalanx entirely, since its role is more or less dominated by the Mk.XV S-Defender, though we included some converted Cheyenne II's with long-range missile packs in place of their gun arms as a long-range offensive option.


All in all, we made them faster on their feet, more accurate in shooting, and a lot more heavily armed.

[ShadowLogan]

I normally have the 1st Edition RPG GU-12 gunpod retained, but I treat is as a caseless 105mm weapon with somewhat limited ammunition instead, comparable to the main weapon of the earlier VHTs.

Have you considered simply using the Zentreadi Flechette Shotgun in 2E TMS SB (pg192), it fires 105mm ammo. It's already semi-auto, all it really needs is an extended magazine (or reloads) and you are good to go (especially if you allow custom 105mm ammo types like the VHT)

Apart from their demonstrable absence, you mean?

It hasn't been touched formally, but they do have room to insert it to a degree (more with "fresh" designs, instead of existing ones for any given period). The HRG-70 writeup in the 2E RPG does give the impression Railguns are rare among the UEEF, and given the lack of projectile-type weapons in the UEDF/ASC they likely don't use them much either (some of the beam weapons do display trajectories one might expect from a projectile).

I'd class the Silverback much closer to the Alpha and its kin than to a Cyclone.

While the typical man-size is probably thought of close to ~6ft, we know that humans have grown larger than that (gigantism gets into the 7-9ft range, and if wikipedia can be believed here unconfirmed reports in the 11ft range). That really puts the Silverback as man-size in the gigantism area for humans (still a bit more, but certainly close in size to what some rare humans have grown to).

Silverback itself is closer in height to the ASC PA (~10ft) and Cyclone (~7ft) in Battloid mode when you ignore the modular weapon's mount at 13ft than the Alpha's 28ft, it's only the addition of the weapon's mount extra that it comes closer to the Alpha's height at 20ft. The Silverback is also listed being closer to the Cyclone/ASC PA in mass at 1,300kg than the Alpha 16,000+kg.

The Railgun in question though is basically a double barrel version of the Cyclone's (2E RPG id's it as HRG-140, a twin mount of HRG-70s. PttSC has it as "HRG-70s"), making the weapon in question still a infantry scale weapon and not limited to use by a full-sized mecha. I know it is possible to mount infantry-portable weapons on vehicles/mecha, but said platforms do have weapons that infantry can not use in reverse (in the same way).

That's assuming that mecha made by humans generate enough power to make railguns a viable alternative to conventional guns and/or the low-output beam weaponry that's common in RT

I think they can fire railguns, the real issue is having a viable rate of fire, since the mecha (or at a facility) could charge capacitors (or flywheels or other methods) for energy storage. We already know the ASC mecha charge their beam weapons to deliver a certain number of shots (2E RPG canon), so such a setup isn't completely out there.

A dedicated power system is also viable. A single PC canister (per RAW 2E RPG Lunk's Railgun) can fire a single round 240 times, with nearly x7 (6-2/3) the power of a single HRG-70/140 round. The HGR-70 by comparison appears to share the power from the mecha canister(s) as it is not noted if it has an independent power supply. More viable for NG era, but the use of Eclips (from beam weapons) should also allow for similar dedicated use (SAL-9 does use PC-EClips and regular Eclips at 20:1, not sure how a PC-Clip compares to a PC-cell, but...)

it's a question of performance. The state-of-the-art railgun available in 2044 is not really an overwhelmingly powerful weapon. It's basically got the performance of an anti-materiel rifle, but the rate of fire of a light machine gun. The railguns used on the Macross II destroids are in a whole other league... lobbing much larger shells out at 7 times the speed. We're talking a difference in power requirements and destructive potential that's off by orders of magnitude.

The RT SotA RG though is man-portable, the M2 Destroids most certainly aren't. It's like comparing the main gun (105/120mm on M1A1) of a tank to its secondary gun(s) located elsewhere (M1A1 has x2 7.62mm machineguns and a 3rd 12.7mm with option for a 4th) that can also be used by infantry (or variants of the 2ndary guns).

We should be seeing intermediate sized railguns between the capital ship and man-sized infantry, just like we have examples of beam weapons and other assorted ordnance.