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Posted: **Sat May 11, 2013 4:20 pm**

Summoning creatures of light as a good person, if they are sentient is evil. If you make them "bound" or contracted to you.
You have to plea with them and convience them to work WITH you. Not for you.
In dragons and gods their are all the angels and such. You could summon elementals, as well

Posted: **Sat May 11, 2013 4:55 pm**

The first Rifts Conversion Book (the older one, not the "revised" one) had the Rifts stats for the Creatures of Light.

Posted: **Sat May 11, 2013 7:52 pm**

Zamion138 wrote:Summoning creatures of light as a good person, if they are sentient is evil. If you make them "bound" or contracted to you.
You have to plea with them and convince them to work WITH you. Not for you.
In dragons and gods their are all the angels and such. You could summon elementals, as well

Um, why is being contracted Evil? "You do this task for me, and I agree to pay you for it in the specified fashion."

Also, why is having an EMPLOYEE an EVIL act? Wanting a hireling to do the cooking while you go adventuring, is only something that an evil-aligned person would consider. Hiring a bunch of sailors to man your cutter and help you sail in search of pirates to bring to justice is evil? Hiring a butler to take care of the house you were just given by your Baron for services rendered to his Barony, so you can go out and adventure, is evil?

If these things aren't evil, then simply having employees isn't evil, and all a contract is, is a written form of the agreement that two parties agree to. By itself, there is nothing evil here, except slavery. Now, there are some circles that a summoner/shifter can't use due to alignment, but you'd have to read the individual circles and find which ones require the sacrifice of a sentient being.

Posted: **Sat May 11, 2013 9:07 pm**

Summoning is just a tool. It can be used for both good and evil, depending on how you approach it.

Most of my experience with summoning is with the Temporal Magic spell Id Self where you summon a version of yourself from a parallel dimension. Before summoning, I always lay out a spread of cookies, candy, and a variety of beverages to choose from. Then I summon a parallel version of myself. I first ask if they were in the middle of something that requires them to go back immediately and if they say they are, I send them back and try again to get different Id Self. When I summon a double that is willing to hang around, we eat my snacks and get to know each other.

My goal when using Id Self is to find a version of myself that is interested in helping me achieve my goals or has goals that I'm willing to help him achieve. I'm not looking for a slave or minion, but rather an ally.

The GMs in games where I've done this have usually found this to be an excellent way to provide us with story hooks and I, as a player, have found this to be an excellent way to gain access to new dimensions, knowledge, and allies that can be summoned on demand.

Now I don't feel that any of this is evil and I don't see why any other type of summoning must be inherently evil even if the creatures you're summoning are evil creatures. You just have to be careful.

--flatline

Posted: **Sat May 11, 2013 10:31 pm**

Abaddon wrote:If a shifter wanted to play the "white mage" version of the O.C.C., which book would have a good selection of lesser and greater creatures of light (good guy types)? Also, to get said book in PDF, is drivethrurpg.com the correct one or am I off on the name of the site? Thank you for your time.

Creatures of light are in the Dragons and Gods book.

Posted: **Sun May 12, 2013 2:56 am**

What i meant by summoning a light/good creature and then going into a battle of wills with it.
If you pull them into your diminsion and ask them for help, thats not evil but if you pull them in and then take command over them or do one of the pacts as expressed in the rue book then i do see that as evil no matter the cuase. Its less evil to go into the battle of wills with an evil creature and force them to aid you on a good/nobel task. Its just your servent is going to try to pervert your commands all the time and hate their job.

Posted: **Sun May 12, 2013 3:29 am**

Zamion138 wrote:What i meant by summoning a light/good creature and then going into a battle of wills with it.
If you pull them into your diminsion and ask them for help, thats not evil but if you pull them in and then take command over them or do one of the pacts as expressed in the rue book then i do see that as evil no matter the cuase. Its less evil to go into the battle of wills with an evil creature and force them to aid you on a good/nobel task. Its just your servent is going to try to pervert your commands all the time and hate their job.

Sorry, but I still have to disagree. The simple pact, described in RUE is Universal Justice at its finest. You have tried to kill me, and in exchange for Mercy, you will offer a term of Service to me. We here on this Earth call that Prison. (with a work release option) Abusing the servant, or tricking a creature into attacking by feigning weakness, that may well be considered evil.

Posted: **Sun May 12, 2013 6:03 pm**

Abaddon wrote:@Flatline: Agreed, as I mentioned earlier, it is the Shifter's intentions that determine whether it is good or evil. With the "white mage" concept, it is more about allies than slaves/servants or whatnot. As far as summoning evil creatures goes, I have seen plot hooks in novels that required a good cleric/priest to summon a powerful and evil outsider in order to glean information for a good cause; as you stated earlier, just be careful....with your intentions. I just wish the class ability in the RUE didn't emphasize the evil aspects of summoning so much, it can be misleading.

I remember that kind of thing being almost common for the cleric Cadderly in the Forgotten Realms. A completely good cleric he would summon up evil creatures to garner information while being VERY careful about it and remembering all the tricks that they can pull to ensure he got reliable information. It really is about intent, with the main worry just being how they can tempt one, which is why it warns about how one could start good and end up evil due to the temptations of the evil creatures that they summon if they give in. But it's not impossible to start good and remain good with diligence.

Posted: **Mon May 13, 2013 3:52 pm**

Abaddon wrote:@Nightmask: Lol, you sir have read my mind. Some of the best books I have had the fortune of reading. He was in fact who I was thinking about when I mentioned that in my post. Too bad he passed away, he was a great character.

Again, diplomacy and negotiations, favors traded between player and summoned npc's and you now have a solid foundation of friendship. I never liked the idea of a one-sided summoning, where only the PC takes and takes and the npc is treated as a favor/service vending machine.

Where was Cadderly definitely killed off? He was alive and offering up help to Drizzt's group well after Cleric Quintette ended. Then again the author got horribly angsty and abusive of his characters in the later books after his issues with WotC (such as crippling the one dwarf by shearing off his entire arm at the shoulder) and I go with the 'nope sorry none of that ever happened' mantra.

Posted: **Mon May 13, 2013 4:30 pm**

Abaddon wrote:The book is called The Ghost King and that is the one where Cadderly loses his life, and Cattie-brie and Regis the Halfling if I remember right.

Makes me glad I haven't read anything from WotC for the Forgotten Realms since the Orc Invasion quintette (and wish I hadn't wasted money on it given the range of downer endings) in hearing that. Sad to see a writer turn on his creations like that.

Posted: **Mon May 13, 2013 6:04 pm**

Abaddon wrote:
Nightmask wrote:
Abaddon wrote:The book is called The Ghost King and that is the one where Cadderly loses his life, and Cattie-brie and Regis the Halfling if I remember right.

Makes me glad I haven't read anything from WotC for the Forgotten Realms since the Orc Invasion quintette (and wish I hadn't wasted money on it given the range of downer endings) in hearing that. Sad to see a writer turn on his creations like that.

Yea, on the plus side, I can always go back to the books from the good old days and ignore the disheartening ones.

Always a good thing to keep in mind, too bad they don't include downer ending warnings on literature, I'd favor that way more than some warning because things got racy or violent.

Posted: **Mon May 13, 2013 6:46 pm**

Abaddon wrote:Again, diplomacy and negotiations, favors traded between player and summoned npc's and you now have a solid foundation of friendship. I never liked the idea of a one-sided summoning, where only the PC takes and takes and the npc is treated as a favor/service vending machine.

That's the GM's fault for not making the player fulfill their obligations to the creature they summoned and then bargained with. If the player on the other hand fails to fulfill their obligations, well, that's not good for them. While the books do not indicate any kind of punishment from "Magic" for doing so, there are already examples of beings being forced into doing things because of their actions. Plenty of opportunity for a creative GM to punish a PC for breaking their word, I would think...

Posted: **Mon May 13, 2013 6:55 pm**

Abaddon wrote:Yea, lol, a downer ending warning is about as close to giving away the ending as you can get without ruining the book though. To be fair, if a writer wants to kill off a hero, then not only make the death due to heroics, but don't have the death lead to something even more sad like with Cadderly. lol, I don't want to say what his death included at the end, but just not cool.

It's been an unfortunate and disappointing trend since the early 90s to have more and more downers like that, with the heroes not just failing to save the day but having their deaths make things even worse. It's just about destroyed the comic book industry where there are no heroes anymore and science fiction and fantasy novels have ended up the same way.

Posted: **Mon May 13, 2013 7:04 pm**

Search on-line for a list of the Hugo Award winners since the award was established. Lots of good reading if you can find them.

--flatline

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2013 10:31 am**

The evils of summoning. I think this boils down to summoning something and the battle of wills forcing them to do your bidding would be considered slavery. Hence an evil act. However if you are performing the summoning then negotiating and trading obligations so that both are willing to help out with a task then it wouldn't be considered evil (depending upon the intent).

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2013 12:06 pm**

42dragon wrote:The evils of summoning. I think this boils down to summoning something and the battle of wills forcing them to do your bidding would be considered slavery. Hence an evil act. However if you are performing the summoning then negotiating and trading obligations so that both are willing to help out with a task then it wouldn't be considered evil (depending upon the intent).

Now see that's a very grey area, since people often end up forced into doing things without it having to be an evil act (GM, especially the railroading sort, often force PC into certain actions with various threats from lawful authorities or good-aligned deities). Summoning up some evil demon to force it to give up information or some other aid you need in order to perform a good act isn't evil, certainly not something that would make someone's alignment slip from good towards evil.

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2013 12:45 pm**

42dragon wrote:The evils of summoning. I think this boils down to summoning something and the battle of wills forcing them to do your bidding would be considered slavery. Hence an evil act. However if you are performing the summoning then negotiating and trading obligations so that both are willing to help out with a task then it wouldn't be considered evil (depending upon the intent).

You're forgetting that Palladium has gone with the leaning that, societally speaking, slavery is not necessarily "evil", and that it's circumstantial. That's why even good aligned characters can own slaves in Palladium games.

Posted: **Tue May 14, 2013 1:02 pm**

Fair points.

I think I am taking my point of view from dealing with spirits of light or other non-evil supernatural beings. If you are trying to enslave an evil creature to accomplish something good, I can see that not affecting your alignment however that could be a slippery slope. But forcing the battle of wills on a non-evil creature could be considered an evil act.

Posted: **Thu May 16, 2013 10:09 pm**

Lets not forget that summoners and shifters don't HAVE to do a battle of wills. they can choose to negotiate a fair price for services, and if the summoned being agrees, they're bound without any rolls.

Posted: **Tue May 21, 2013 1:57 pm**

I did one of these once - Elementals were the heavy hitters, but even Summon Animals can work in RIFTS - bring out the Dinosaurs and T-Rex! If your GM is willing to work with you, you can summon Guardians from the Nightbane universe (used a modified Summon Vampires spell). The Spirits of Light also work, but they are often very hefty in their saves. The important thing is to not keep them around longer than they care to be here, and not letting them die in your service (if it can be helped).

Posted: **Fri Aug 02, 2013 4:47 am**

torjones wrote:The simple pact, described in RUE is Universal Justice at its finest. You have tried to kill me, and in exchange for Mercy, you will offer a term of Service to me. We here on this Earth call that Prison. (with a work release option)

By summoning a creature, you have kidnapped it from its home and brought it to your dimension/lair. Isn't that kidnapping? Don't victims of kidnapping have a right to defend themselves?

torjones wrote:tricking a creature into attacking by feigning weakness, that may well be considered evil.

I'm not clear on why feigning weakness is evil. No amount of weakness FORCES a creature to attack. If I fake a limp walking down the street and a guy chooses to mug me because of it, it doesn't make an act of self defense any less legitimate.

Goliath Strongarm wrote:Palladium has gone with the leaning that, societally speaking, slavery is not necessarily "evil", and that it's circumstantial. That's why even good aligned characters can own slaves in Palladium games.

Interested in stuff related to this, any example of good chars owning slaves? I don't recall it being mentioned in the alignment system. Oddly enough alignments depend on what is 'legal', which is subjective and out of odds with the real world implication of alignments.

I think of the Seanchan in WoT in regard to slavery. I don't really consider THEM all evil for what they do, since they view it as good for society and don't view channelers as people, but as dangerous animals. I imagine the CS takes a similar stance on mages, cept they lack the tools to control their casting, and are more brutal with them.

Posted: **Fri Aug 02, 2013 7:40 am**

Tor, a better CS example is what they do with Psi-Stalkers, who are treated essentially like slaves with no ability to live outside their rigidly controled utility roles in CS soceity.

Posted: **Sat Aug 24, 2013 2:49 pm**

Interesting, should we consider CS style Psi-Stalkers slaves? Are they given the option of leaving the States to go live with wild tribes? Slaves are usually hunted down if they ever try to leave. I think an AWOL Stalker would get that, but what if their term of service ended without renewal or they didn't sign on in the first place? I know mutant animals get the slave treatment but for some reason I figured the CS would give them some kind of "if you don't want to live by our rules, go live elsewhere and feed on as many mages as possible along the way" type thing.

Posted: **Fri Nov 08, 2013 7:12 am**

If you cast a summoning spell, it's possible that some of them are just polite requests for aide, sent to a very large group of people who are inclined by their natures to respond. That it's not technically guaranteed to work, but it just very very likely to succeed for a variety of reasons may not be known to most summoners.

Posted: **Sun Nov 10, 2013 8:31 pm**

Tor wrote:Interesting, should we consider CS style Psi-Stalkers slaves? Are they given the option of leaving the States to go live with wild tribes? Slaves are usually hunted down if they ever try to leave. I think an AWOL Stalker would get that, but what if their term of service ended without renewal or they didn't sign on in the first place? I know mutant animals get the slave treatment but for some reason I figured the CS would give them some kind of "if you don't want to live by our rules, go live elsewhere and feed on as many mages as possible along the way" type thing.

Would likely be a case by case basis..some would know things the CS would rather not have shared with others. so few will get 'a trip to cornfield' mob style depending on what they know. Some might be encouraged to run free to serve as eyes and ears for the CS.

If you cast a summoning spell, it's possible that some of them are just polite requests for aide, sent to a very large group of people who are inclined by their natures to respond. That it's not technically guaranteed to work, but it just very very likely to succeed for a variety of reasons may not be known to most summoners.

Agreed, its like Necromancers..if they take the time request the said undead help and offer to aid them return..necromancers are not evil. Its all in how you do it, not what.

Posted: **Mon Dec 30, 2013 9:23 pm**

Zamion138 wrote:Summoning creatures of light as a good person, if they are sentient is evil. If you make them "bound" or contracted to you.
You have to plea with them and convience them to work WITH you. Not for you.
In dragons and gods their are all the angels and such. You could summon elementals, as well

I disagree. You can contract creatures of light without turning evil... you simply form an agreement with them whereby they aid you in exchange for something from you. Like creatures of darkness, the creatures of light have their conditions for breaking the agreement; conditions which meet their own ethics.

Binding them, as in involuntary servitude? That's more problematic.

Posted: **Fri Jan 10, 2014 2:14 am**

Dimension Book 7 has a summoning table which is an excellent resource to determine what it is you are summoning. I recommend it for all Shifters.

Posted: **Fri Jan 10, 2014 11:31 pm**

Dimension book 7 clearly talks about the summoning process. Step one is opening a communications rift, and then talking. So you don't HAVE to summon those unwilling to come, you could open the rift and ask nicely first. It will cost more PPE since you will probably get a lot of no's but you will also have the advantage of all the summoned being willing.

Posted: **Sat Jan 11, 2014 12:54 am**

eliakon wrote:Dimension book 7 clearly talks about the summoning process. Step one is opening a communications rift, and then talking. So you don't HAVE to summon those unwilling to come, you could open the rift and ask nicely first. It will cost more PPE since you will probably get a lot of no's but you will also have the advantage of all the summoned being willing.

No need for the rift. I would rule the spell would send a call and a willing being would come. So no more PPE than normal. That would require a spell for calling good and evil...now that imply one for selfish alignments..and ya you'd really want to be careful on that third spell.

the other (and easier option) is to have the standard spell require the caster to select an alignment range prior to casting.

Posted: **Sat Jan 11, 2014 9:34 pm**

Rimmerdal wrote:
eliakon wrote:Dimension book 7 clearly talks about the summoning process. Step one is opening a communications rift, and then talking. So you don't HAVE to summon those unwilling to come, you could open the rift and ask nicely first. It will cost more PPE since you will probably get a lot of no's but you will also have the advantage of all the summoned being willing.

No need for the rift. I would rule the spell would send a call and a willing being would come. So no more PPE than normal. That would require a spell for calling good and evil...now that imply one for selfish alignments..and ya you'd really want to be careful on that third spell.

the other (and easier option) is to have the standard spell require the caster to select an alignment range prior to casting.

I was talking about the basic 'shifter summons minions' class ability. Spells, Circles, and what not are totally different. (though for a really GOOD spell to take, try Ritual: Call Creature of Light from Nightbane.) Its explicitly explained to use their communications rift power.

Posted: **Sun Jan 12, 2014 8:24 pm**

Mark Hall wrote:You can contract creatures of light without turning evil. Binding them, as in involuntary servitude? That's more problematic.

Why are we only considering angels here? Is it somehow less immoral to enslave evil beings than it is to enslave good ones?

To get overly technical, there is not any explicit alignment restriction against slavery. That can only be included indirectly by alignment considerations to 'obey the law' and there are places where slavery is not against the law, so it depends on which society your character believes in and ascribes to follow the laws of.

Posted: **Mon Jan 13, 2014 12:47 am**

Tor wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:You can contract creatures of light without turning evil. Binding them, as in involuntary servitude? That's more problematic.

Why are we only considering angels here? Is it somehow less immoral to enslave evil beings than it is to enslave good ones?

To get overly technical, there is not any explicit alignment restriction against slavery. That can only be included indirectly by alignment considerations to 'obey the law' and there are places where slavery is not against the law, so it depends on which society your character believes in and ascribes to follow the laws of.

And kidnapping, you would technically need a place where kidnapping from other jurisdictions is legal. Oh yah, and the summoned creature must not be able to be classed as an innocent (good cant harm innocents). That last is pretty grey but I would venture that unless the being is already guilty of a crime then its innocent. (and maybe even then, but again that's a morality issue)

But yeah there is technically nothing wrong with kidnaping and slaving the non-innocent

Posted: **Mon Jan 13, 2014 8:06 pm**

Tor wrote:
Mark Hall wrote:You can contract creatures of light without turning evil. Binding them, as in involuntary servitude? That's more problematic.

Why are we only considering angels here? Is it somehow less immoral to enslave evil beings than it is to enslave good ones?

To get overly technical, there is not any explicit alignment restriction against slavery. That can only be included indirectly by alignment considerations to 'obey the law' and there are places where slavery is not against the law, so it depends on which society your character believes in and ascribes to follow the laws of.

I'd say that yes, it is more immoral to enslave good beings than evil beings, if you consider Good and Evil to be real and objective things (which Palladium is inconsistent about).

If you enslave a good being, even for good purposes, you are potentially disrupting any of their plans and schemes, reducing the amount of good in the world. You may not actually disrupt anything... but you choose to take an action that can have that effect, which is an evil on top of the slavery you have inflicted.

Posted: **Fri Jan 31, 2014 2:59 pm**

eliakon wrote:And kidnapping, you would technically need a place where kidnapping from other jurisdictions is legal.

I imagine it'd be perfectly find within places like the Federation of Magic.

eliakon wrote:Oh yah, and the summoned creature must not be able to be classed as an innocent (good cant harm innocents).

Summoning someone doesn't do them harm though. That would determine how you treat your summons, not if you can bring them in. Of course causality questions come into play, like is A harming B if A compels B to fight enemy C (enemy of A) even though it's C doing harm?

eliakon wrote:I would venture that unless the being is already guilty of a crime then its innocent.

Vanguard: "the crime of not being human"

Mark Hall wrote:I'd say that yes, it is more immoral to enslave good beings than evil beings, if you consider Good and Evil to be real and objective things (which Palladium is inconsistent about).

Basically I'm going by the definitions of the alignment, which themselves don't discuss the morality of slavery on the basis of others' alignments, only the morality of harming others on the basis of their alignments. Though I suppose some forms of slavery could be harmful (ie work yourself to death building my pyramid, dwarf)

Mark Hall wrote:If you enslave a good being, even for good purposes, you are potentially disrupting any of their plans and schemes, reducing the amount of good in the world. You may not actually disrupt anything... but you choose to take an action that can have that effect, which is an evil on top of the slavery you have inflicted.

As you say, not all good beings may actually be doing good acts. Similarly, evil beings may also be doing good acts. Enslaving an evil person may stop them from building a hospital, whereas enslaving a Scrupulous Astral Junkie may not disrupt anything.

Posted: **Fri Jan 31, 2014 6:23 pm**

Tor[quote="eliakon wrote:Oh yah, and the summoned creature must not be able to be classed as an innocent (good cant harm innocents).

Summoning someone doesn't do them harm though. That would determine how you treat your summons, not if you can bring them in. Of course causality questions come into play, like is A harming B if A compels B to fight enemy C (enemy of A) even though it's C doing harm? [/quote]

I don't know about you, but I would class "Being forced to come to another dimension against my will in order to serve another person" as harm. Asking them nicely? that's a WHOLE different ball game. But just plucking them from their life and bringing them to you as a servent? Yah I would say that is "harm"

Posted: **Fri Jan 31, 2014 6:27 pm**

eliakon wrote:
Tor wrote:
eliakon wrote:Oh yah, and the summoned creature must not be able to be classed as an innocent (good cant harm innocents).
Summoning someone doesn't do them harm though. That would determine how you treat your summons, not if you can bring them in. Of course causality questions come into play, like is A harming B if A compels B to fight enemy C (enemy of A) even though it's C doing harm?

I don't know about you, but I would class "Being forced to come to another dimension against my will in order to serve another person" as harm. Asking them nicely? that's a WHOLE different ball game. But just plucking them from their life and bringing them to you as a servent? Yah I would say that is "harm"

Offer them milk and cookies while you discuss the situation and then send them home if they don't want to stay.

That's exactly what my temporal wizards used to do when summoning a parallel dimension version of themselves (can't remember the name of the temporal spell).

--flatline

Posted: **Fri Jan 31, 2014 6:36 pm**

flatline wrote:
eliakon wrote:
Tor wrote:
eliakon wrote:Oh yah, and the summoned creature must not be able to be classed as an innocent (good cant harm innocents).
Summoning someone doesn't do them harm though. That would determine how you treat your summons, not if you can bring them in. Of course causality questions come into play, like is A harming B if A compels B to fight enemy C (enemy of A) even though it's C doing harm?

I don't know about you, but I would class "Being forced to come to another dimension against my will in order to serve another person" as harm. Asking them nicely? that's a WHOLE different ball game. But just plucking them from their life and bringing them to you as a servent? Yah I would say that is "harm"

Offer them milk and cookies while you discuss the situation and then send them home if they don't want to stay.

That's exactly what my temporal wizards used to do when summoning a parallel dimension version of themselves (can't remember the name of the temporal spell).

--flatline

That might work, though I would say you would still be treading on thin ice. Asking through the communications rift first would be better (if your talking about the summon power, not spells). But yes, if the entity freely consents to assist you of their own will, that is by definition not harmful.

Posted: **Sat Feb 01, 2014 9:28 pm**

Rappanui wrote:One of my bad Gms thought shifters could summon creatures without using expensive spells... and he was dead wrong... but the main book is very vague on this subject. Anyone else Care to opine on this?

RUE pg 123 bullet point 9. It took until RUE to make it clear, but they DID finely make it quite clear. Yes you can summon with out spells. You have to open communications rifts, and then use your class 'summon power' but you can do it.

Posted: **Sun Feb 02, 2014 5:05 pm**

Rappanui wrote:Ok. so it says Any Lesser supernatural creature (with greaters being attemptable later on.. but things that are not supernatural are not valid targets. not without the right magic ..so summoning a Greater Cyclops.. Possible or not possible?

its a (greater) Supernatural Creature, so yah its possible....there are also very few of them and they have the protection of the Greek Gods.....

Posted: **Sun Feb 16, 2014 6:57 pm**

I would love it were there a list of everything that Summon Lesser Being could summon and also a list of what it could not summon. Same with the new power.

In RMB all I figured is it could just summon whatever random stuff you rolled up at the back, which led to some variety, but confusion with subsequent books and beings.

Posted: **Tue Feb 18, 2014 2:46 am**

Tor wrote:I would love it were there a list of everything that Summon Lesser Being could summon and also a list of what it could not summon. Same with the new power.

In RMB all I figured is it could just summon whatever random stuff you rolled up at the back, which led to some variety, but confusion with subsequent books and beings.

You can also summon any form of lesser demons as well as lesser elementals

Posted: **Sat Feb 22, 2014 5:12 pm**

Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Tor wrote:I would love it were there a list of everything that Summon Lesser Being could summon and also a list of what it could not summon. Same with the new power.

In RMB all I figured is it could just summon whatever random stuff you rolled up at the back, which led to some variety, but confusion with subsequent books and beings.

You can also summon any form of lesser demons as well as lesser elementals

Or if your total Jack A** summon a horde fey. Now that I say that would fey even respond to a summons?

Posted: **Sat Feb 22, 2014 5:40 pm**

Rimmerdal wrote:
Nekira Sudacne wrote:
Tor wrote:I would love it were there a list of everything that Summon Lesser Being could summon and also a list of what it could not summon. Same with the new power.

In RMB all I figured is it could just summon whatever random stuff you rolled up at the back, which led to some variety, but confusion with subsequent books and beings.

You can also summon any form of lesser demons as well as lesser elementals

Or if your total Jack A** summon a horde fey. Now that I say that would fey even respond to a summons?

Depends on the GM. Fairies are creatures of magic to start with, which makes summoning them a GMs choice. My personal call is 'no' but that's just me.

Posted: **Sun Feb 23, 2014 1:50 pm**

eliakon wrote:I would class "Being forced to come to another dimension against my will in order to serve another person" as harm.

It's rude and intrusive, but one could interpret it quite literally as causing them physical damage, which it doesn't. Also barring some vulnerable mortals, I don't see any monster being scarred by the experience, assuming insanity would qualify.

flatline wrote:my temporal wizards used to do when summoning a parallel dimension version of themselves (can't remember the name of the temporal spell).

I want to say Summon ID but could be getting it confused by Id Alter Ego in FoM...pg77 "Id Self" there we go. The 'id' duo.

Rappanui wrote:thought shifters could summon creatures without using expensive spells... main book is very vague on this subject. Care to opine on this?

All shifters started with 'Summon Lesser Being' but it was kind of expensive. Though not impossible, considering you could supplement your PPE with a familiar, a supernatural pact, and possibly other pets.

Posted: **Sun Feb 23, 2014 2:22 pm**

Tor wrote:
flatline wrote:my temporal wizards used to do when summoning a parallel dimension version of themselves (can't remember the name of the temporal spell).
I want to say Summon ID but could be getting it confused by Id Alter Ego in FoM...pg77 "Id Self" there we go. The 'id' duo.

Yes, "Id Self" was it. That spell is useless until you're 5th level, but it's the best thing about getting to 5th level for a vanilla Temporal Wizard.

--flatline

Posted: **Sun Feb 23, 2014 8:53 pm**

Rappanui wrote:fey do respond to summons, infact there is a Summon Fairie ritual, just for them. But you can't use any simple spell to summon them unless you knew their true name. .. of Course there's also the Link to Fairie Lord as a shifter option .. ( but that's a big break on Palladium's fairie cosmology as there are no Fairie kings)

Well there is a Summon Fairie circle, but the circles allow you to summon all sorts of wacky stuff. Thus we still don't know if fairies can be summoned with anything else.

Posted: **Mon Feb 24, 2014 2:49 am**

Rappanui wrote:anything with a true name can be summoned. ... As explained. Fairies do not have some immunity to magic or spells in palladium, like they do in AD&D. Fairies are only immune to Fairie food!.

Really? What spell are you going to use to summon them? Or any number of OTHER things that have true names, and are not supernatural beings.

Posted: **Tue Feb 25, 2014 4:40 pm**

Rappanui wrote:page: 145: Palladium Fantasy :
Snip: the only beings that can not be summoned are beings such as greater dragons, gods, demigods, Demon lords, (and similar beings).
Summon Fairie folk: drawn in a circle composed fof flower petals or honey and the sacrifice of a lamb...
Summon Pawn : needs true name or drop of blood of the victim, is used on all mortal folk, Rangoe the summoning is 1000 miles per level, or or dimensional portal

They gave the Shifter as a bonus power the equivalent of Summon Greater familliar in Megaverse builder.

Uhhh, yah, that's Circle magic again. Its a rare form of magic, that has its OWN rules that do not apply to any other mage, from one dimension. So yes, a Summoner, with the right circle, can try to summon most anything.

The REST of the magical community has to use spells. And THOSE have some limits....one of which is that, as far as I know, there is not a spell to summon Creature of Magic, just Supernatural Beings.

Posted: **Tue Feb 25, 2014 5:59 pm**

Rappanui wrote:... your playing Semantics.

Not really. I don't see how the abilities of one OCC (Summoner) using its exclusive OCC power (circle magic) to perform tasks has any sort of generalizing effect.
A Summoner can summon a Fairies, great. Now how does a Shifter do it? A spell that summons Supernatural creatures does not summon mortals, nor does it summon Creatures of Magic, or robots, or apples, or anything except....Supernatural Creatures.
So the point still stands. OTHER than a Summoner, using a Circle, is anyone able to summon Creatures of Magic, non-friendly Mortals (besides animals), Dragons etc?

Posted: **Tue Feb 25, 2014 7:04 pm**

Rappanui wrote:Shifters can use summoning circles, and can use them at regular cost. Further more, It says Shifters can learn All summoning Circles.

Sure, they only have to find a guy to teach them how to do the circles, and they learn only one circle at a time especially since they don't understand the symbols used...

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