Free Magic Movement

[Killer Cyborg]

The guilds and other established magical groups would kill people who threatened their profit margin.

[Killer Cyborg]

I know that's where it starts to make for fun adventure ideas.

If you haven't done so, you should probably read up on the Guild for the Gifted, in VKr.
165 members, 11th level on average, plus another 200 associates, plus corrupt city officials and cops on the payroll.
That kind of organization isn't an adventure for most low-level characters, it's a death sentence.

[Eashamahel]

South America has magical universities where all spells level 1-6 are available to be learned.

A couple, or even a few dozen young mages getting together and trading spells around is hardly a threat to anyone. It wouldn't take too many Ley Line Walkers for everyone in the group to know every 1-4th level spell. The problem is, once you get past 6th level, there is really no way that a guild of 'free' spell exchange would come to be. No one who knows those spells is going to share them. Shifters with a link to a Supernatural Being and high level mages already have loyalties elsewhere, and those loyalties most likely preclude them from freely sharing their spells.

I get everyone wants to share spells back and forth, but this hardly even works with PC's, who are compelled by forces outside of the natural world of causation (ie, players decisions) to do so. Have you ever tried it? It works fine with a couple of Ley Line Walkers, all trading level 1-4 spells back and forth, but falls apart after that. Mystics and co. can't trade/learn. Shifters basic spells could be traded if the Ley Line Walkers had something of interest that the Shifters wanted spell-wise, but that's rarely the case, so instead the LLW's have to trade something else to the Shifter, like help, money, support, re-occurring source of PPE/help with summonings... And you have a guild. Shifters spells gained from supernatural link? That is a whole other world of difficulty, you gave up part of your humanity/freedom to link to an extra-dimensional being and offer it assistance, you're probably not super happy to just give what you gained from that away for free, if you were that much of a humanitarian you wouldn't have linked to a powerful supernatural intelligence and given it a potential link to our world in the first place.

Other mages become even more unlikely. Trained as part of a fighting force/national group? Most likley not allowed to give those away to other people not part of your nation. Shamans, Witch Doctors and other ethnic/tribal casters have their own taboos, most likely not giving up their cultural heritage to outsiders who could potentially use such knowledge against their tribe, and that mentality can also apply to non-traditional tribal groups, like simple magic communities, as opposed to Inuit shamans and peoples.

It really just gets more and more difficult and unlikely from there. Your game sounds like it's going to be fun for you and your group, and that's good. But as mentioned above, if it was ever going to be a real issue for established guilds, it wouldn't be. And if it isn't, it's just the above trading of 4th level spells among young LLW's, and no one really cares. Besides, someone has a 6th level spell you want, maybe you can trade him for a couple 4th level spells...oh, nope, wait, you already taught everyone all the spells you know, looks like you have nothing to offer him in the way of spells for trade, so you are stuck again, unless you can offer some trade of goods or services...and now you are in a guild again.

[Eashamahel]

I think you may have misunderstood my post, but regardless, just so I am clear.

You have made an oganization. Of mages. Who want to share their spells with each other. Anyone can join, and learn any spell anyone else has, provided they are willing to teach their own spells back to everyone else.

How is this not just a very benevolent Guild?

[Glistam]

This sounds pretty fun. In a socitey with young, rebellious mages, and with technology at your fingertips, I can totally see this as plausable. I also agree that established guilds would try hard to prevent it. But that doesn't mean ths spread of knowledge would be stopped, only slowed.

Fight fire with fire: Some guild mages could use magic and/or disguise to impersonate some of the more popular "instructors" in these videos. Then with some TV/Video skills and the magic of special effects, release videos that seem to teach spells, but do not work. Flood the area with these fake (but real-looking) videos to discredit the program. If evil, release spell videos which have dangerously incomplete spell formulae - those who try to use it end up only hurt if they're lucky, and dead if they're not. Make sure word gets out that these videos are not as helpful/benign as they appear. Then make sure people know your local guild is still, and is always, the safest and best resource for your spell tutelage.

[glitterboy2098]

for those trying to see how this is different from being 'just another guild'... think about it as a version of ThePirateBay, only in analog form and focused on magic. it's members freely share what they have with each other.. even the spells that other guilds protect rigorously as private intellectual property.
higher level spells would be in circulation because there would be no way for a Guild to prevent their members from joining this 'peer to peer' sharing network, and once a member of a guild shares the info on the spell with the network, there is no way to prevent it from being spread.
a guild can only punish a member which violates guild regs and shares the spells out.. but by then the damage is done. and if the member sharing the info is careful, no one should be able to tell who did it.

[flatline]

I get everyone wants to share spells back and forth, but this hardly even works with PC's, who are compelled by forces outside of the natural world of causation (ie, players decisions) to do so. Have you ever tried it?

If both characters agreed to a trade, spell swapping was allowed just like trading weapons or other bits of equipment was allowed. We did a fair amount of this over the course of a campaign and it was never a problem, not even with higher level spells.

We did have some rules about it to reduce the meta-gaming potential.
1. no comparing spell lists during character generation to maximize the number of swappable spells
2. if character A was retired, then any spell that character B learned from A was lost unless the GM ruled enough time had passed to prove that A wasn't brought into the game just to bring spell knowledge into the party.
3. some sort of trade (money, equipment, services, etc) was expected.

It was not uncommon for the mages to pool their funds so that one of them could purchase a high level spell from a teacher. Then, once he had mastered the spell, he was expected to teach it to the others. Heck, sometimes even the non-mages pooled their funds to help the mage learn a spell (we did this to purchase Resurrection, for instance, since everyone saw value in being able to be brought back).

It was also not uncommon for the PCs to teach spells to NPCs as payment or to help build trust or to increase the power of our allies. My Temporal Wizard, for example, taught Cleanse to anyone who was willing to learn it for free just because he thought having less stinky people made the world a better place.

If you have a mature group that isn't going to abuse it, trading spells is a great way for the party to build relationships between the characters, NPCs, and to help maximize party resources.

--flatline

[taalismn]

Great idea and adventure hook.
It also has many historical precedents. Such apparently mundane things as glass-making, for example, were closely guarded guild monopolies(French glassmakers even leveled death sentences against those who sought to make off with their secrets), if there was a profit angle involved.
There's also the legal question; if you're a mage who's spent years perfecting a particular spell that gives you an edge, then some punk steals your grimoire, or reverse-engineers your spell, or takes your expensive tutelage, then blabs your spell to everybody else, what recourse to you have to what feels like a copyright violation? Magic be free, but when you've literally spent blood in perfecting your golemancy ritual, you might want heads to roll...

[Alrik Vas]

A group of hippy mages sharing their information via the interwebs turns out to be a secret black op by the CS, tracking file shares to hunt down and apprehend or kill the mages. Deadboys killing the mages only increases the interest in the Free Magic Movement, leading to more deaths.

Will the PC's figure out the truth in time to save the countless number of mages who don't have divination spells!?!?!?

It was almost a good idea. :/

[Zamion138]

I think its a good idea for a plot, but magic guilds tend to take things like sharing spells to their logical conclusion, " oh your teach anyone and everyone how to make skeltons and ghouls? You must like them alot so we sent 40 of them to your door."

Other things to arise, little timmy likes a girl but that jock billy "stole her" from him. Go and learns call lightning or fireball and use" md weponary basicly on an sdc child.
Lester had always liked raping people...now he knows agony and domination, let the crime spree commence!

The lazlo ayso soccer team had a crushing defeat, all the little girls lead by rachel the team captain got to geather on a full moon around the spring sulstice to summon a monster to kill the other team, sadly they lost the battle of wills with the demon and now they are all dead and an alu demons on the loose.

Kyle just learned how to resurect his recently dead father but couldnt hope to get enough ppe to. Cast the ritual, he figured it would be for the best to kill a school bus full of his class mates to get their ppe.

And so on.

The thing with magic is you might teach a child globe of day light, shadow meld and some other utility spells to get them to want to be your aprentice, but then your damn sure going to make sure they are mature enough before you go teaching them how to blow up a house.

[nilgravity]

I think the Free Magic movement is a brilliant idea that resonates with the Openware movement we have today.

[Zamion138]

Or some evil god or demon lord posts a spell that uses the caster true name and they give themselves or at at the least share their ppe to bring him on to the plane.
Or like a virus a spell is uploaded that cuases the caster to be able to be invisable to all. But the spell writer....pretty good system for detection of possible magic foes.

[Alrik Vas]

"Everyone who watches this video dies three days later..."

[Tor]

It isn't just profit margin that worries me here. There are a lot of spells out there which can be pretty dangerous, I wouldn't want just anyone knowing them. Do we really want every spellsplinger out there knowing Energy Sphere / Annihilate / Dimensional Portal / Return from Grave ?

[say652]

i support the free magic idea, but nothing is ever free.

[Zamion138]

It isn't just profit margin that worries me here. There are a lot of spells out there which can be pretty dangerous, I wouldn't want just anyone knowing them. Do we really want every spellsplinger out there knowing Energy Sphere / Annihilate / Dimensional Portal / Return from Grave ?

Not even thoose grave ones think about firebolt, or call lightning, yeah no problem for adventurers but not to good for the school counciler to have to deal with.

[Zamion138]

The higher level spells are limited due to one very simple fact. Most ley line walkers, shifters, or even High Mages won't have enough PPE to cast more then one, until a much higher level. Learning Annihilate doesn't do anything if you can't generate enough PPE for it. Ley lines and nexus points are still limited in the amount of PPE a mage can channel due to their experience level. An exchange group like this makes as much sense as the pay for spells or apprentice/master or Harry Potter college style of learning. You can use magic pigeon, distance voice, teleport object for video/scroll drops, etc to expand your circle. I highly doubt Lazlo or New Lazlo is going to attempt to off you, as much as evil guilds might. In fact, I would run the entire city of New Lazlo as one great big experiment in creating and exchange spells like this.

Once you start passing around the talisman spell and energy sphere as well as create scroll there are some very clever ways to get more ppe than you normally can so there is some danger there still but yes a kid that stumbles on a dimensional portal spell is unlikely to be able to cast it.

They cant cast it alone.
But if say the boy scout troop 448 decides their camping trip sucks and end up in center..........well now we have a campaign.

[nilgravity]

doublepost some how...

[cornholioprime]

i support the free magic idea, but nothing is ever free.

It's not only a matter of There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch, it's also the fact that you can't learn Palladium Spell Magic just by someone else giving you words and incantations and gestures on a DVD they mailed you.

The Learning Process for Magic Spells has been consistently and repeatedly stated to be something that you don't just arrive at by traditional study or rote memorization of words or linear/logical progression (i.e., just because the words "Orbus Infernus" might produce a Fireball, that doesn't at all guarantee that the words "Orbus Infernus Superia" will generate a more powerful fireball).


There's a reason why even the greatest grandmasters of magic in the Megaverse seldom get past 20th level in any one magical discipline, even if they've been alive for millions of years. Any and all would-be mages who get their hands on these hypothetical free materials would still have to be formally trained by other mages unless they are skilled enough to reverse-engineer the spell themselves (and that would very likely take even more time).


I would recommend that anyone who can afford it, go out and buy the "Mysteries Of Magic" book for both PFRPG and Rifts, a very informative book (it's also cheaper than the average Palladium Publication).

[Glistam]

i support the free magic idea, but nothing is ever free.

It's not only a matter of There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch, it's also the fact that you can't learn Palladium Spell Magic just by someone else giving you words and incantations and gestures on a DVD they mailed you.

The Learning Process for Magic Spells has been consistently and repeatedly stated to be something that you don't just arrive at by traditional study or rote memorization of words or linear/logical progression (i.e., just because the words "Orbus Infernus" might produce a Fireball, that doesn't at all guarantee that the words "Orbus Infernus Superia" will generate a more powerful fireball).


There's a reason why even the greatest grandmasters of magic in the Megaverse seldom get past 20th level in any one magical discipline, even if they've been alive for millions of years. Any and all would-be mages who get their hands on these hypothetical free materials would still have to be formally trained by other mages unless they are skilled enough to reverse-engineer the spell themselves (and that would very likely take even more time).


I would recommend that anyone who can afford it, go out and buy the "Mysteries Of Magic" book for both PFRPG and Rifts, a very informative book (it's also cheaper than the average Palladium Publication).

In the Nightbane setting, Mages are said to be able to learn spells off the internet, especially via the Shadowboard.

[flatline]

We have canon a example (at least in Fantasy) where you can learn Fly Like An Eagle just by glimpsing an open spell book before it suddenly turns to dust.

I recall this being mentioned before, but don't know the source. Perhaps someone can provide the citation?

--flatline

[torjones]

I think its a good idea for a plot, but magic guilds tend to take things like sharing spells to their logical conclusion, " oh your teach anyone and everyone how to make skeltons and ghouls? You must like them alot so we sent 40 of them to your door."

Other things to arise, little timmy likes a girl but that jock billy "stole her" from him. Go and learns call lightning or fireball and use" md weponary basicly on an sdc child.
Lester had always liked raping people...now he knows agony and domination, let the crime spree commence!

The lazlo ayso soccer team had a crushing defeat, all the little girls lead by rachel the team captain got to geather on a full moon around the spring sulstice to summon a monster to kill the other team, sadly they lost the battle of wills with the demon and now they are all dead and an alu demons on the loose.

Kyle just learned how to resurect his recently dead father but couldnt hope to get enough ppe to. Cast the ritual, he figured it would be for the best to kill a school bus full of his class mates to get their ppe.

And so on.

The thing with magic is you might teach a child globe of day light, shadow meld and some other utility spells to get them to want to be your aprentice, but then your damn sure going to make sure they are mature enough before you go teaching them how to blow up a house.

I think you're missing that if the crime was going to happen, it was going to happen with or without magic involved. Magic is just yet another tool to be used, whether that tool be used for good or bad be up to the user, not the tool. The magic may make it easier to commit the individual crime, but then, so do computers, so lets get rid of computers because people use them to commit fraud and digital-tresspass.

You don't blame the burger for making you fat. You don't blame the match for burning down the building. Yet you're going to blame the magic for anti-social and criminal behavior.

Oh, and bad choices aren't the domain of the very young or immature. Jeffery Dohmer and Ted Bundy were neither. True, I would hate to see those kinds of people with magic at their disposal. Then again, that's when the adventurers get involved, and it's typically referred to as a Quest To Kill The Evil Sorcerer or The Quest to Kill The Local Necromancer.

So, yeah, those bad things happen, and people die. And the criminals get caught and punished by society. If they aren't then they either give up their evil ways, regretting their actions and try to make amends, or they like the power and go on to be a big enough problem that a party of adventurers gets set upon them.

Plans for the Nuclear Bomb are available on the Internet. Radioactive material is widely available. That more people in first world countries haven't been busted for building one amazes me.

Food for thought.

[torjones]

Or some evil god or demon lord posts a spell that uses the caster true name and they give themselves or at at the least share their ppe to bring him on to the plane.
Or like a virus a spell is uploaded that cuases the caster to be able to be invisable to all. But the spell writer....pretty good system for detection of possible magic foes.

That actually sounds like a really good idea for an adventure!

[torjones]

It isn't just profit margin that worries me here. There are a lot of spells out there which can be pretty dangerous, I wouldn't want just anyone knowing them. Do we really want every spellslinger out there knowing Energy Sphere / Annihilate / Dimensional Portal / Return from Grave ?

I don't see why not.
Energy Sphere: very useful for rituals, not so much otherwise. The only time you can really make use of one in combat is if you know a couple days in advance that you're going to be going into combat and it's going to be a long combat. That way, you have time to regain your spent PPE. Of course, it also requires you to have enough PPE in order to make the thing worth while, so I'd say you would need a base of about 300+ PPE to really make the spell worth learning. That would mean that you can store about 180 PPE in the Energy Sphere for use later, but you'd be tapped out until your own PPE regenerates. That's going to take a while. Cool, now I've got 180 extra PPE that I have to use sometime in the next two-ish weeks or it goes poof. (or bang if you're a sadistic little so and so) What does that mean? I can last two thirds longer in combat than I could otherwise. Sory, but I don't see the huge usefulness in the spell, or how dangerous it would be to society.
Annihilate: How many low level characters who aren't even really casters are going to have the PPE available to them to even CAST the spell without killing something with a lot of PPE already, and if they can already do that, then why are you worried about this spell again? The problem I have with the spell is that every Technowizard I've ever had in my games has wanted to make an Annihilate Pistol. No. Just, NO. I made that mistake once, years ago. Will NEVER happen again. I don't care if the cannon you want to put it in is the size of Missouri, not gonna happen.
Dimension Portal: Um, again, 1000 PPE. you're worried about this spell WHY? How many 12th level LLW can cast this spell under their own power without resorting to things like Energy Sphere or sacrifices?
I couldn't find Return from Grave. It's not in RUE or Book of Magic that I could find. Palladium did a good job in balancing a spells power against how much that spell costs to cast in terms of PPE, so in general, no I'm not particularly concerned with any individual spell. I have more problems with Carpet of Adhesion being really damned annoying from a GMs perspective.

Now the real question is, just because the spell is known by SOMEONE on rifts Earth, or even in North America, doesn't mean that they are going to share the spell with the Free Magic Movement. If you're going to introduce the Free Magic movement to your game, realize that it's going to start small. There's going to be a lot of utility spells being shared. Things that mages would use in every day life. Spells that all ley line walkers start with. Spells that all shifters start with. Things like that. Ok, so now you've got a few LLWs running around with a few extra spells. Is he likely to want to learn Dimensional Portal, even though it's available? Not really. How many years is it going to take him to acquire enough PPE to be able to cast it? "Bah, too much trouble. If I ever get close to having the PPE for it, I'll learn it then." They are going to be more interested in Cleanse and "Mend" and things of that nature (which Palladium has never been all that great about. Lots of combat potential spells, not so much with the mundane spells). How many people know what aquaponics is, let lone use it in their yards/patios even though the information is available free on the internet, and training videos are available on youtube? $100 at home depot will get you all the bits and pieces you need for nearly every aquaponics system out there, so it's cheap. Well, cheaper than buying yet another gamestation360 anyway... more useful too.

Then there's Johny Mage, who is all excited about learning Barrage from his latest adventure, so he wants to share it with the rest of the Free Magic community. He puts together his little tutorial on the spell, and shares it. Now, two problems with this situation. Johny has a low MA, so can't really relate the information effectively. Most people who watch his tutorial, really don't understand what he's getting at, so never learn the spell. Second problem is, THERES NO INDEX for this kind of thing. How do you go about looking for something you don't know exists? Or, how about you think a certain spell should be called bubbles, but the person who shared the spell called it balloons instead. You might eventually find the spell, or you might not. A few years back I was looking for the name of a movie. I couldn't remember it. I couldn't remember any of the actor's names, so I described a couple of the scenes from the movie to people that I met. Turns out that it took me two years to learn the name of the movie. Now, consider, it's still the early days of the Free Magic movement, and most spells that DO exist haven't been shared yet. you want a new spell that does X. How do you find it? It may well be called by thirty different names in North America. It may not be open-sourced yet. Hell, it may not even exist. Go ahead, try to find it. Can't find it? Are you using the right search terms? Has it been shared yet? Does it even exist yet? Very frustrating. If Archie isn't just a cartoon character to you, then you may well be familiar with what I'm getting at.

It is of course possible to create an index, but those who do are going to be targeted by those who oppose the Free Magic movement. Pirate Bay and Demonoid come to mind.

If you're going to compare it to todays Free Software movement, then what you're going to wind up with is a few gems, and a lot of solutions in search of problems. A coder wrote this program to solve a problem he was having, and it worked great for that specific problem. Down side is that unless you're having the same problem, it's a less than optimal solution to your own problem, and it was poorly documented and likely has little to no relevant information in the help file. It's great for the DIYers out there, but not for the average Joe on the street. They just aren't trained enough to take advantage of it.

Personally, I never understood why it was put into the setting that "Mages guard their knowledge zelously." I understand why someone who paid a very heavy price for a spell would not want to give up that knowledge, except to an apprentice or something of the like. To me, the only spells worth the kind of price being discussed, like signing blood pacts with greater super natural entities, would be spells of legend, and they aren't all that great for the most part. Very single purpose spells. Then again, there are people out there who dedicated a substantial portion of their lives to developing an operating system only to release it, free to the world, so it does happen, just not often.

[Blue_Lion]

I think you may have misunderstood my post, but regardless, just so I am clear.

You have made an oganization. Of mages. Who want to share their spells with each other. Anyone can join, and learn any spell anyone else has, provided they are willing to teach their own spells back to everyone else.

How is this not just a very benevolent Guild?

The only guilds or mages that are often protayed as that sharing are TWs. With TW device plans, at low level there may not be much that care. The problem is when you start sharing high level spellls. Even most benvelent groups whould be a little slow to give these out, to just any one. what I see happening most of the time is low level mages join learn a bunch of low level spells then leave. With the kind of power that high level spells can give a mage they are a little less likely to want to give it to every one. Not that they will not allow worthy people to earn/learn them but do you want to teach anilate to a crazy eviel mage, or a race X hating super biget? How about teaching a nice big AOE MD spell to a good mage that has voices that tell him to do bad things like burn down a playground full of kids?

Any mage guild has some kind of spell sharing system in place where members can earn/learn spells just they are carfull about who they let in and or who gets the realy good stuff. For example kingsdale teaches all mages that serve in the defence force set key spells such as armor of ithan, long term loayal mages might earn realy good spells from uper levels.

Look at it this way if it is a spell that may resonably be for sale then it might be shared but if it is some uper level spell you going to have to work for it no way around it.

[Blue_Lion]

I think its a good idea for a plot, but magic guilds tend to take things like sharing spells to their logical conclusion, " oh your teach anyone and everyone how to make skeltons and ghouls? You must like them alot so we sent 40 of them to your door."

Other things to arise, little timmy likes a girl but that jock billy "stole her" from him. Go and learns call lightning or fireball and use" md weponary basicly on an sdc child.
Lester had always liked raping people...now he knows agony and domination, let the crime spree commence!

The lazlo ayso soccer team had a crushing defeat, all the little girls lead by rachel the team captain got to geather on a full moon around the spring sulstice to summon a monster to kill the other team, sadly they lost the battle of wills with the demon and now they are all dead and an alu demons on the loose.

Kyle just learned how to resurect his recently dead father but couldnt hope to get enough ppe to. Cast the ritual, he figured it would be for the best to kill a school bus full of his class mates to get their ppe.

And so on.

The thing with magic is you might teach a child globe of day light, shadow meld and some other utility spells to get them to want to be your aprentice, but then your damn sure going to make sure they are mature enough before you go teaching them how to blow up a house.

I think you're missing that if the crime was going to happen, it was going to happen with or without magic involved. Magic is just yet another tool to be used, whether that tool be used for good or bad be up to the user, not the tool. The magic may make it easier to commit the individual crime, but then, so do computers, so lets get rid of computers because people use them to commit fraud and digital-tresspass.

You don't blame the burger for making you fat. You don't blame the match for burning down the building. Yet you're going to blame the magic for anti-social and criminal behavior.

Oh, and bad choices aren't the domain of the very young or immature. Jeffery Dohmer and Ted Bundy were neither. True, I would hate to see those kinds of people with magic at their disposal. Then again, that's when the adventurers get involved, and it's typically referred to as a Quest To Kill The Evil Sorcerer or The Quest to Kill The Local Necromancer.

So, yeah, those bad things happen, and people die. And the criminals get caught and punished by society. If they aren't then they either give up their evil ways, regretting their actions and try to make amends, or they like the power and go on to be a big enough problem that a party of adventurers gets set upon them.

Plans for the Nuclear Bomb are available on the Internet. Radioactive material is widely available. That more people in first world countries haven't been busted for building one amazes me.

Food for thought.

Wait weapons grade radioactive materal is widely avaible? I think your logic/point of view is off. Tell you what I will give you a week to come up with radioactive materal for a bomb, let us know how that goes for you. Realy make in intresing goodle how to make a nucler bomb right befor you go looking for it. Even thou there is no realist chance of you getting the materal to make a bomb, I am betting some one shows up and questions you if you google that then try to locate materal for it. Your logic is way off the mark.

Tell you what lets down the scale, go trade a flash light for a gun. That is the same as trading globe of daylight for a damaging spell. Bet you have a realy hard time doing it, why because they have precived value by those that use them. Now when you are tring to trade a hand gun for a nuke it gets harder.

That said any magic socity has some sort of magic trading/earning sysem in place that is half the reason people join them to begin with. But to teach any spell to any one who wants to know it no question asked, with some of the uper level spells is not going to happen. Best case seenario is mages join learn basic low leve spells from the group at the groups expence (time is valuble.) then leaves. No one with any real power to share whould stay long, just imagine beeing in a guild and having people constantly come up and ask for you to teach them spell X it gets anoing fast. I feel that magic is to suble and complex to be taght over the internet (accept for maybe TWs) I can teach you to shoot a gun in 5 seconds but mages have to spend years to learn to cast spells and then it takes more time to learn a new spell from a mentor.

[Blue_Lion]

I think its a good idea for a plot, but magic guilds tend to take things like sharing spells to their logical conclusion, " oh your teach anyone and everyone how to make skeltons and ghouls? You must like them alot so we sent 40 of them to your door."

Other things to arise, little timmy likes a girl but that jock billy "stole her" from him. Go and learns call lightning or fireball and use" md weponary basicly on an sdc child.
Lester had always liked raping people...now he knows agony and domination, let the crime spree commence!

The lazlo ayso soccer team had a crushing defeat, all the little girls lead by rachel the team captain got to geather on a full moon around the spring sulstice to summon a monster to kill the other team, sadly they lost the battle of wills with the demon and now they are all dead and an alu demons on the loose.

Kyle just learned how to resurect his recently dead father but couldnt hope to get enough ppe to. Cast the ritual, he figured it would be for the best to kill a school bus full of his class mates to get their ppe.

And so on.

The thing with magic is you might teach a child globe of day light, shadow meld and some other utility spells to get them to want to be your aprentice, but then your damn sure going to make sure they are mature enough before you go teaching them how to blow up a house.

I think you're missing that if the crime was going to happen, it was going to happen with or without magic involved. Magic is just yet another tool to be used, whether that tool be used for good or bad be up to the user, not the tool. The magic may make it easier to commit the individual crime, but then, so do computers, so lets get rid of computers because people use them to commit fraud and digital-tresspass.

You don't blame the burger for making you fat. You don't blame the match for burning down the building. Yet you're going to blame the magic for anti-social and criminal behavior.

Oh, and bad choices aren't the domain of the very young or immature. Jeffery Dohmer and Ted Bundy were neither. True, I would hate to see those kinds of people with magic at their disposal. Then again, that's when the adventurers get involved, and it's typically referred to as a Quest To Kill The Evil Sorcerer or The Quest to Kill The Local Necromancer.

So, yeah, those bad things happen, and people die. And the criminals get caught and punished by society. If they aren't then they either give up their evil ways, regretting their actions and try to make amends, or they like the power and go on to be a big enough problem that a party of adventurers gets set upon them.

Plans for the Nuclear Bomb are available on the Internet. Radioactive material is widely available. That more people in first world countries haven't been busted for building one amazes me.

Food for thought.

Wait weapons grade radioactive materal is widely avaible? I think your logic/point of view is off. Tell you what I will give you a week to come up with radioactive materal for a bomb, let us know how that goes for you. Realy make in intresing goodle how to make a nucler bomb right befor you go looking for it. Even thou there is no realist chance of you getting the materal to make a bomb, I am betting some one shows up and questions you if you google that then try to locate materal for it. Your logic is way off the mark.

Tell you what lets down the scale, go trade a flash light for a gun. That is the same as trading globe of daylight for a damaging spell. Bet you have a realy hard time doing it, why because they have precived value by those that use them. Now when you are tring to trade a hand gun for a nuke it gets harder.

That said any magic socity has some sort of magic trading/earning sysem in place that is half the reason people join them to begin with. But to teach any spell to any one who wants to know it no question asked, with some of the uper level spells is not going to happen. Best case seenario is mages join learn basic low leve spells from the group at the groups expence (time is valuble.) then leaves. No one with any real power to share whould stay long, just imagine beeing in a guild and having people constantly come up and ask for you to teach them spell X it gets anoing fast. I feel that magic is to suble and complex to be taght over the internet (accept for maybe TWs) I can teach you to shoot a gun in 5 seconds but mages have to spend years to learn to cast spells and then it takes more time to learn a new spell from a mentor.

The difference between trading spells and trading flashlight for a gun is that you loose the flashlight and they loose the gun , if you trade globe of daylight for firebolt you are both now better equipped to go about our business. The scarcity of spell knowledge is artificial based on the fear of sharing information.

There is also a bit psychology going on with the spread of this kind of idea, if you ask to trade a spell with somebody they are going to want an equal spell in return however if your approach is "Hey man I just learned this really cool spell look I'll teach you" and they have a spell a little cooler (maybe a level or two higher) in the spirit of either competition, comradery or both they may teach you that spell. This won't always be the case but it would work often enough to steadily increase the circulation of spells.

Obviously more powerful spells will take longer to become commonly available and there would be organization that grow out of the movement. They would be particularly important in curating spell knowledge to make it more accessible. As time went on you would get groups of people that focused on creating new spell or even making current spells more efficient.

As every movement needs a figure head to rally behind who would be the Linus Torval of the Free Magic Movement.

You over looked that if you where not both using your squirl hand shake that they could have charged you for their time. I already stated what the most likely out come whould be just a colection of low level mages swapin low level spells then leaving when they get to the good stuff is the best case scenrio.

You do not want to see why it whould not logicaly work that is on you. It is a grand idea but the inhernt flaw in whould be its undoing. As well as if some how it does start to work then more powerfull mages groups whould work to undermine and crush it. It could also get rep for training terrorist and trouble makers causing the goverments to step in agaist it. (probaly with influnece from another mage guild to help.)

It whould be like a Newbe helping guild in a MMO that had you required to help every one in the guild. The high levels whould get boged down by low levels needing stuff and whould be driven away, Or whould leave for a raiding guild.

Also you think people whould not feal the need to prevent the misuse of their knowledge. The mage worked verry hard for that knowledge and knows what it can do, Why give any one who asks for one a nucler bomb? Its not that the pasing of magical knowledge is not done by mage groups just most groups set standards for how it is shared. All magic groups do work together to verring levels to increase the groups magical power. So the problem is not the fact that any group whold do it, the problem is their is no comon filter in place for it to not only protect the group but prevent knowlede from falling into the presived wrong hands.

I should probaly point out that in a magical city like New Lazlo finding some one to teach you low level spells whould be fairly easy. There may be seveal mage school, socities, and other establimsents that do that as a main source of income. Just in fact Pb stand point is only high level spells are hard to find teachers for. You seam to have the view that even low level spells are hard to come by in magical places witch I do not belive is true. (witch may mean that most the people in your group whould likely be resoure leaches or deliquents.)

[taalismn]

I can just see the Movement getting monkeywrenched by nasty pranksters distributing 'tainted' spell info(the spell up and obliterates the caster and an area of effect or summons a Shadowbeast to devour them), thus 'poisoning' the ideals of the Movement.

[Galroth]

I can just see the Movement getting monkeywrenched by nasty pranksters distributing 'tainted' spell info(the spell up and obliterates the caster and an area of effect or summons a Shadowbeast to devour them), thus 'poisoning' the ideals of the Movement.

On the flip side I can envision the founder of the movement being a powerful Shifter bonded to Prometheus. Spreading magical knowledge to mortals would definitely fit his mythology nicely. Maybe have cultists of Hecate and priests of Zeus opposing them as well as the Coalition and various magic guilds. Sounds like a fun adventure from either side.

[Blue_Lion]

I can just see the Movement getting monkeywrenched by nasty pranksters distributing 'tainted' spell info(the spell up and obliterates the caster and an area of effect or summons a Shadowbeast to devour them), thus 'poisoning' the ideals of the Movement.

I do see getting far enofe for that for that to happen.

I played in many MMOs where I whould help guild members but when I asked the people I helped for help they where almost always "busy". Even in guilds that prided themselfs on beeing helpfull. You get lots of peole that join the cause untell you finsish outfiting them then leave. The group also develops clicks where the ones in the click gets the good help to get the good stuff while others not in the in group get left out. The guilds that get the realy good stuff are the ones that have focused and dedecated requirments. IE a noob helpfull guild gets rotating new people with high turn over and poor to medium gear. Guilds with a DKP system of some kind get people that invest into the group (raid) to improve themselfs and the guild. It is the guilds that have a requirment to get the power that so that its members are invested and focused on the guilds goals that improve not the free hand out guilds.

As to improving magical understanding all magic groups do that in their own way.

Simply put I see it as a high Idea that has no relistic way of working.

[taalismn]

I can just see the Movement getting monkeywrenched by nasty pranksters distributing 'tainted' spell info(the spell up and obliterates the caster and an area of effect or summons a Shadowbeast to devour them), thus 'poisoning' the ideals of the Movement.

Except this hadn't kept computers out of your home or you off the internet, an internet that exists largely in the way that it does because of open source software. People are constantly trying to steal personal information so they can empty your bank account yet you take reasonable precautions and go about your business.

Also the pranksters as they grow out of their prankster stage become the security experts. The other thing is the ground work has to be laid before it is an efficient way to pull a prank. Otherwise you get one person to cast the spell if that person dies then it's unlikely to get passed on if it's just a funny prank well they may or may not send it on based on the mages temperament.

Bad things should happen, you wouldn't make a fun game otherwise and it may not work but there are some very successful real world examples of it working and the fact we're having this discussion over the internet is evidence of that.

Except that bad software doesn't try to eat your brain and steal your soul. Nor does it follow you off the computer and start killing everybody in the house. We're talking MAGIC here.
True, as a way of permanently putting the kibosh on the Movement, distributing bad magic is a short-term, far-fetched idea...witnesses will survive, word will be passed, and mages(who, it is to be hoped, are brighter than the average cellphone ap-user) will take precautions when performing a spell for the first time.
But there will always be the occasional few who will fall for the temptation of quick(and FREE) power and fall victim to the scam(and, coldly, in the long term it actually weeds out a lot of people who SHOULDN'T be mages).

[Killer Cyborg]

One issue you'd have is dissemination of the information; a lot of mages a) aren't literate, b) aren't big on computers (and tech in general).
So if you're thinking of doing it via computers, that's one thing you'd have to deal with.
Also, there isn't a World Wide Web or anything. It'd have to be city-wide at best, and that'd make it easier to track down (and/or shut down) the people spreading the information.

I agree with the idea that there would be sabotage as well, in the form of booby-trapped spells and such. Not just from passive anarchists/jerks, but deliberately from Guild members. Not all of the corrupted spells' effects might be as obvious as "you die." There could be curses, delayed effects, or other stuff woven in as well.
Even with the immediately lethal stuff, I agree that it wouldn't be passed on... but it wouldn't need to be passed on in order to have an effect on people's behavior. After a few people drop dead from spells that they picked up this way, a lot of people would be very wary of trying to obtain spells the same way, kind of like people are wary of e-mail offers today, to the point of just dismissing most of them out of hand as either spam or cons.

Also, I think the CS would take action against this, as soon as they found out about it. So there'd be that to contend with as well as the Guilds.

I think that the Pirate Bay analogy is a good one... it's just that Pirate Bay's enemies have to obey both laws and physics, and the enemies of this movement wouldn't be under the same constraints.
It'd get real bloody, real fast.
And stay that way.

[Blue_Lion]

I can just see the Movement getting monkeywrenched by nasty pranksters distributing 'tainted' spell info(the spell up and obliterates the caster and an area of effect or summons a Shadowbeast to devour them), thus 'poisoning' the ideals of the Movement.

I do see getting far enofe for that for that to happen.

I played in many MMOs where I whould help guild members but when I asked the people I helped for help they where almost always "busy". Even in guilds that prided themselfs on beeing helpfull. You get lots of peole that join the cause untell you finsish outfiting them then leave. The group also develops clicks where the ones in the click gets the good help to get the good stuff while others not in the in group get left out. The guilds that get the realy good stuff are the ones that have focused and dedecated requirments. IE a noob helpfull guild gets rotating new people with high turn over and poor to medium gear. Guilds with a DKP system of some kind get people that invest into the group (raid) to improve themselfs and the guild. It is the guilds that have a requirment to get the power that so that its members are invested and focused on the guilds goals that improve not the free hand out guilds.

As to improving magical understanding all magic groups do that in their own way.

Simply put I see it as a high Idea that has no relistic way of working.

The MMO guild analogy I don't think holds because instead of taking time out to personally help the character level they are pointing them to an instructions on how to do what you want to do.

Again with the open source software analogy if you ask on a linux forum how to do something your not very likely to get a step by step freshly typed out how to unless it's really simple what you will usually get are links to information posted by someone who has already worked out the issue your are working on. Do this long enough and you eventually find a problem other people haven't solved the you work on a solution. Once you found the solution most people in this possition don't go "now I'm better than everyone else because I know something they don't" and keep the information to themselves. Having been helped by this information a 100 other times ( I'm being really generous here it's probably 1000's) then spread the information oh how they solved problem X. Then starts the long discussion of how solution X could be done better. Which continues until problem X has satisfactorily easy solution.

Actualy that is fundamantly flawed way of thinking. Pointing them at instructions is the same as learning from scrolls low success rate. Learning spells requires tutalage in other words a teacher spending time. To get high success rate you want they whould need to spend time teaching. Other wise there whould be no magic mentors/schools just ley line walking for dummies. Passing allong magic knowledge is only realy effective with direct interaction. Taking knowledge from print only allows for misunderstandings that a teacher can fix. Like if I told you the rock says there is only one kind of pie. If you do not get the refence you will misunderstand it. The more abstact a concept the easer the misunderstanding whould be, a teacher can test and correct misunderstandings that the text can not.

Another way to explain it whould be if -I have two people of equal potental that want to learn kung-fu and I give one a book and personaly teach one. Witch one whould be more likely to pick up the skill? Witch one whould have a better practicle understanding of the skill? (for this example I is a kung-fu master)

Also just telling them how to something every 5 min or where to find it is still anoying and a time waster. And belive me that is still part of the MMO analogy. Because people will ask how to do things when the quest tells them what to do, so basicaly you whould still have to tell them the directions even if you gave them directions in writing. You get what is basicaly a parasite that drains away good intent as they try to get some one else to do every thing for them so they do not have to do any work.

So athou a good idea at its heart it is not relisticly feesable as you think. At best it is just making what should already be readly avaible in a magic city avaible in a magic city. I do not see high power spells making into the systems as mages with them whould either leave (for a group witch can offer them more) or be driving away by the constant stream of new level 1 mages wanting them to teach them something every thing they know.

Cyborg are not most mages that can learn spells by instruction literate unlike the rest of rifts?

[Ravenwing]

I love this idea!

[Killer Cyborg]

Cyborg are not most mages that can learn spells by instruction literate unlike the rest of rifts?

They're potentially literate, at least, so yeah, the numbers would be higher than for most occupations/people.

[Killer Cyborg]

I can also imagine the biggest interest in this would be from young techno wizards as they have the literacy both with computers and magic and already kind of a hacker mentality I think they may be a driving force and drive creations that help with the dissemination issue.

Makes sense.

As for the danger issue it will be dangerous but some places more than others. There are many places where the rule of law is strong such as Lazlo and New Lazlo. Others the mage guilds will have the power to hold sway and if not stomp out the movement drive it deep underground in these places.

Is Lazlo or New Lazlo described anywhere?

I don't really she the Coalitions reach going outside it's Borders for this but would be a major concern in the burbs. It is however already very dangerous to be a magic user in the burbs so for that being part of this movement would likely be seen as an acceptable riisk for the potential reward. Especially when you consider the burbs are full of youth with the live fast die young mentality anyway.

I would say that it is quite likely that the CS has operatives in most magical communities that aren't outright hidden (like Dweomer or the City of Brass). They probably wouldn't want to blow their cover for this kind of thing, but anything that they could do to disrupt it without compromising themselves would be done.

If it takes hold however many guilds will change from the inside as these groups develop new spells or types of magic, or simply need to recruit for a generation of mages that learned magic this way many guilds will adapt. Even the federation of magic may come around and may even be convinced to support the idea if it becomes enough of a thorn in the side of the coalition. Hey it happens with the most Apple the most stringently proprietary software company around and they built OSX on FreeBSD and Microsoft hires plenty of software developers from opensource backgrounds.

It will be bloody and stay that way for quite some time but if it's around long enough it would become the new normal and the magic infrastructure and culture of North America could become dependent on it.

Over the next 100 years, quite possibly.
Over the next decade... probably not.
Still potentially interesting campaign, though.

[flatline]

Wait, when did everyone become able to learn spells?

I thought you had to also have an understanding of the principles of magic before you could make sense of a spell.

--flatline

[Nightmask]

Wait, when did everyone become able to learn spells?

I thought you had to also have an understanding of the principles of magic before you could make sense of a spell.

--flatline

Well to learn magic spells you'd have to meet the minimum requirements for a spell-casting class that learns spells via education instead of spontaneously like mystics or warlocks, not everyone could meet those kinds of requirements. That and they have to have an unshakeable belief in magic (which isn't so hard to develop when you see it around you all the time, you'll have as much faith in it as you do in a sword or laser rifle).

[Alrik Vas]

It isn't "so hard" to develop, but i think it'll take more than the equivalent of a youtube video to get people doing it.

[Alrik Vas]

My point is that anyone can be taught to fire a gun, but they won't necessarily be good at it. Then there are all the safety issues that people screw up with enough to cause far more accidental gun deaths than there are murders involving firearms; and that's a tool that doesn't really require belief to use. Magic is in some ways trickier when you think about it from the standpoint of someone in the game world, but to the player it's just a set of rules.

I know the comparison isn't perfect, but they're both potentially lethal tools. Guns much easier to use but taking training courses doesn't make you a competition shooter. however with magic in Rifts, if you know a spell you know a spell. You can't exactly miscast it, which i think something like the Free Magic Movement would create a chance for when dealing with non-trained magic users.

[Killer Cyborg]

It isn't "so hard" to develop, but i think it'll take more than the equivalent of a youtube video to get people doing it.

No but something the equivalent of and online class may work like the programming coarses may work.

Agreed.... but I don't think it'd help massively.
If you don't have 100% conviction that you can wield these powers, then you'll never be able to learn how.
And even with classes, most people never achieve 100% conviction of anything.

[Nightmask]

My point is that anyone can be taught to fire a gun, but they won't necessarily be good at it. Then there are all the safety issues that people screw up with enough to cause far more accidental gun deaths than there are murders involving firearms; and that's a tool that doesn't really require belief to use. Magic is in some ways trickier when you think about it from the standpoint of someone in the game world, but to the player it's just a set of rules.

I know the comparison isn't perfect, but they're both potentially lethal tools. Guns much easier to use but taking training courses doesn't make you a competition shooter. however with magic in Rifts, if you know a spell you know a spell. You can't exactly miscast it, which i think something like the Free Magic Movement would create a chance for when dealing with non-trained magic users.

Yes it would be more dangerous but the entire setting is far more dangerous than the real world and many may look at knowing magic as the way to make them safe. It may end up that it's more dangerous for them personally to than not but getting them to admit that would be very difficult much like convincing a gun owner that they are more likely to be killed by a gun they own then the gun is likely to save their life. It really may be a good analogy since we will soon be able to print guns out at home and the complexity and quality of those guns will only increase as 3D printers get better.

People have always had the ability to make their own guns, the equipment is generally available they just don't because it's easier to just buy one or steal it. Not a good analogy in general in any case since even if you had knowledge of every spell none of those spells are going to end up being more likely to kill you because no one's going to be able to take them from you in a fight and use them to kill you. Really you just can't draw valid comparisons with gun ownership.

You'd expect some people to try and spread magic even powerful magical spells around, especially in places where magic is either common or the only way to really deal with certain kinds of threats. Certainly it was in Tolkeen's best interest for its mages to have as many powerful spells as possible in preparation for the war and would have been stupid to keep restricting them or charge ruinous amounts for them.

[Alrik Vas]

Rifts doesn't work like real life, we all know this. However we apply a little bit of real life thinking when we roleplay characters or as a GM, control NPCs. Taking that into account, think of gun accidents with MD rifles. Most accidents are from people who aren't practicing good discipline, or they are just learning and make a stupid and tragic mistake.

The same would apply to magic, only you could possibly turn someone green...or a green person pink, or whatever. Or you could, i don't know, make them vanish into a pocket dimension that closes a second later, or accidentally wipe their memory, or blow up your mom...magic, when practiced by the uninitiated, could be just as (if not more) dangerous than amateurs playing laser tag on a range with Wilk's 457's.

That said, the rules don't cover any of that. So by the book, if you took the class, you cast the spell, everything is cool and nothing bad happens. Just like you shoot your NG-45LP, and assuming you get a 5 or higher, totally hit your target. So what i'm saying is, my argument only covers what a person in the game world might consider or worry about, and the bits of flavor a GM could throw around concerning this phenomenon.

I said the comparison wasn't perfect, but hopefully my point (which is more important) is now more understood.

[Zamion138]

Part of the comparisons to gun ownership vs md dealing magic spells, is it is more like spreading laws rocket luanchers and recoiless rifles not rifles and handguns.
Firebolt and call lightning can literly rip a wall apart and atomize an sdc person.
3rd printed guns are not any scarrier than what some on with basic knowledge of fire arms and a tool shop. You can make a fully automatic grease gun with a high school shop level of knowldge and skill. 3d guns are no less scary they are just one or two steps easier and todays generation are better with computers than mechanical things.

[Killer Cyborg]

It isn't "so hard" to develop, but i think it'll take more than the equivalent of a youtube video to get people doing it.

No but something the equivalent of and online class may work like the programming coarses may work.

Agreed.... but I don't think it'd help massively.
If you don't have 100% conviction that you can wield these powers, then you'll never be able to learn how.
And even with classes, most people never achieve 100% conviction of anything.

I would argue that nobody ever achieves 100% conviction in anything without a good degree of insanity maybe not even then but that is only my personal opinion.

Well, start rolling insanity for mages, because the books clearly state that 100% conviction is needed.

However in a world so permeated by magic the conviction in it it's effect should be clearly obvious. It should be as easy to be convinced of the existence of magic in Rifts as the existence of water on earth. The necessity of conviction may also be a defense against hidden effects in magic as it would be very difficult to have conviction in an effect if you don't know what the effect will be.

RUE 285
Belief is not enough. Everyone on Rifts Earth knows magic is real. Even Emperor Prosek believes that, but he can't cast magic spells.
The next step is belief in yourself. Belief that hyou are mentally strong enough to be able to focus your will to grab the elusive energy by the tail and force it (no, massage and shape it like a sculptor working clay) to do what you want it to do. This must be 100% conviction. Any nuance of doubt will destroy any chance of learning magic.
Theoretically, anybody can learn magic; however, it is an extremely difficult process that proves to be impossible for most people.

[cornholioprime]

***snip***
Theoretically, anybody can learn magic; however, it is an extremely difficult process that proves to be impossible for most people.

I think that it's the non-linear, non-logical nature of (Palladium) Magic that throws off so many people.

Many people truly do think that if you just show somebody the 'proper' words and the 'proper' way to move, that potentially any one could make use of the free magic.
When of course it's an entirely different matter altogether and even experienced mages have to actually, physically spend significant amounts of time with other mages to learn new magic, or even longer periods of time to develop their own. (The Mysteries of Magic sourcebook, for example, points out that it isn't all that uncommon for a Mage to develop only one or two original spells of his own in his entire lifetime, if any at all.)



There aren't all that many mages in the world for a reason -not even on the Palladium homeworld where Magic is king in availability and variety if not raw power level -and the reason for the rarity of said magic can't be explained away by the unwillingness of 'greedy' mages to share what they know.
Every single besieged village out in the middle of nowhere that has only the one resident Wizard to protect them and desperately wishes that they had more of them is one proof of this.

[Killer Cyborg]

My statement on belief was an unnecessary and about the real world not the fictional setting of Rifts

Sure... I just tend to think that the second should resemble the first in general workings, fantasy elements aside.

Yes I agree that most people won't become magic users but that they will become more common and access to a wider range of spells. It would also seem to be reasonable that many more people could learn for focus their PPE enough to use TW items. Most people don't learn to code but that doesn't mean enough people haven't learned that it hasn't had a pretty large effect on culture. It also may be an interesting though experiment if started early enough can that level of belief in yourself be taught outside of teaching a child how to use magic, so that they would have a better chance at being able to learn magic.

Eh.
Good enough.
We're in the same chapter, if not on the same page.

Learning to use TW items is something that can be accomplished rather often, if you start as a child, with up to 50% (iirc) of the mundane population of Arzno being able to use them. It would make sense that the populations would be the same in areas like Lazlo and such.
I'm not sure how much that could be bumped up, but it might be able to be.

If you really wanted to change the world, though, you might try getting some Techno-Wizards together with a Palladium Summoner (who are supposed to be pretty darned rare on Rifts Earth) who knows how to make a Power Circle of Knowledge. That can temporarily impart spell-casting knowledge to a person, and with Techno-Wizardry, it might make it either permanent or at least last longer (GM's discretion, of course), as well as maybe make the cost simpler than burning a wizard's tongue each time.
(Even making a regenerating tongue would be a good start)

[Blue_Lion]

It isn't "so hard" to develop, but i think it'll take more than the equivalent of a youtube video to get people doing it.

No but something the equivalent of and online class may work like the programming coarses may work.

First off the words on a scroll do not disapear when read, they disapear when read aload. It whould be easy mater for any literate mage to read the scroll then write down what he just read. That whould not cause the words on the scroll to disapear. So that totaly undermines your belife that the dificulty in learning from a spell is because the words disapear.

Reguardless of how what format you use to pass on magic it still requires a dedicated time for a teacher to have a good chance of success.. And my statement on the low success on learing is magic from a writen spell form is supported in several PB publications.

The east example for me to find is a mage that does not learn spells when they level. All spells must be found in written form. This mage that specializes in learning from writen form has a low succuss rate in doing so. The WU Shih are that mage, listed on page 68 mystic china, there chance to be able to learn magic from a writen form is 25+3% per level. And that is the expert at learning that way.

[Blue_Lion]

[quote="Killer Cyborg]

No but something the equivalent of and online class may work like the programming coarses may work.[/quote]

Agreed.... but I don't think it'd help massively.
If you don't have 100% conviction that you can wield these powers, then you'll never be able to learn how.
And even with classes, most people never achieve 100% conviction of anything.[/quote]

I would argue that nobody ever achieves 100% conviction in anything without a good degree of insanity maybe not even then but that is only my personal opinion.[/quote]

Well, start rolling insanity for mages, because the books clearly state that 100% conviction is needed.

[quote] However in a world so permeated by magic the conviction in it it's effect should be clearly obvious. It should be as easy to be convinced of the existence of magic in Rifts as the existence of water on earth. The necessity of conviction may also be a defense against hidden effects in magic as it would be very difficult to have conviction in an effect if you don't know what the effect will be.[/quote]

RUE 285
Belief is not enough. Everyone on Rifts Earth knows magic is real. Even Emperor Prosek believes that, but he can't cast magic spells.
The next step is belief in yourself. Belief that hyou are mentally strong enough to be able to focus your will to grab the elusive energy by the tail and force it (no, massage and shape it like a sculptor working clay) to do what you want it to do. This must be 100% conviction. Any nuance of doubt will destroy any chance of learning magic.
Theoretically, anybody can learn magic; however, it is an extremely difficult process that proves to be impossible for most people.[/quote]

My statement on belief was an unnecessary and about the real world not the fictional setting of Rifts

Yes I agree that most people won't become magic users but that they will become more common and access to a wider range of spells. It would also seem to be reasonable that many more people could learn for focus their PPE enough to use TW items. Most people don't learn to code but that doesn't mean enough people haven't learned that it hasn't had a pretty large effect on culture. It also may be an interesting though experiment if started early enough can that level of belief in yourself be taught outside of teaching a child how to use magic, so that they would have a better chance at being able to learn magic.[/quote]

See what if find flawed in this is that low level spells in a magic city whould be some what common access. It is the real power of magic high level spells whould be protected to prevent it from beeing misused or used agaist your cause.

Even with dedicated effort to teach kids to be mages in magic cities the number with the tallent for magic remains at a low percentage. So it takes a inate tallent to become a mage then training to develop that tallent.

[Blue_Lion]

My statement on belief was an unnecessary and about the real world not the fictional setting of Rifts

Sure... I just tend to think that the second should resemble the first in general workings, fantasy elements aside.

Yes I agree that most people won't become magic users but that they will become more common and access to a wider range of spells. It would also seem to be reasonable that many more people could learn for focus their PPE enough to use TW items. Most people don't learn to code but that doesn't mean enough people haven't learned that it hasn't had a pretty large effect on culture. It also may be an interesting though experiment if started early enough can that level of belief in yourself be taught outside of teaching a child how to use magic, so that they would have a better chance at being able to learn magic.

Eh.
Good enough.
We're in the same chapter, if not on the same page.

Learning to use TW items is something that can be accomplished rather often, if you start as a child, with up to 50% (iirc) of the mundane population of Arzno being able to use them. It would make sense that the populations would be the same in areas like Lazlo and such.
I'm not sure how much that could be bumped up, but it might be able to be.

If you really wanted to change the world, though, you might try getting some Techno-Wizards together with a Palladium Summoner (who are supposed to be pretty darned rare on Rifts Earth) who knows how to make a Power Circle of Knowledge. That can temporarily impart spell-casting knowledge to a person, and with Techno-Wizardry, it might make it either permanent or at least last longer (GM's discretion, of course), as well as maybe make the cost simpler than burning a wizard's tongue each time.
(Even making a regenerating tongue would be a good start)

According to rifts cannon from varrius books. The sharing of TW items desines is more common than sharing of spell knowledge. TWs are the most apt of all mages to share their secerates. So you think a whole magic group is needed to have mages that already share to start sharing?