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You have fighters by the hundred that you cannot use because the pilots have been micronized........ or can you....

One of the things about fighters is you can't stretch your legs, go to the bathroom, or get a cup of coffee....... That is magnified by long missions in space as Combat Air Patrol.......

What if you could do that ?

All that space that formerly held a 50 foot humanoid giant in light infantry armor can now accommodate a two man (pilot/co-pilot crew) in an armored ejectable capsule. There is even the possibility of two or three decks with accommodation for a second crew......

There you have a primary and secondary flight crew, with a lavatory and meals station for heating ration packs or making coffee.

Thus long patrols of debris fields, asteroid fields, and escort missions can be accomplished with a refit for a micronian crew and reclassification as a corvette..

yes/no?

I have plenty of Gnerl's converted into a combination of interceptor troop carrier, as well as a light shuttle by converting to micronian use in my games. The forward section has a pilot and WSO, while ther rear section have room for up to 6 people. These sic people can be troops for boarding operations or passengers being shuttles from point A to point B.

GM's can get away with this by saying it is an IMU, but it makes complete common sense to re-purpose most of the zent mecha and equipment to be used by humans.

Why waste the ship hulls of Zent warships? The scout ship sized vessels can be used as carriers and troops ships. The larger ships can be used as mobile space stations and to transport large groups of Destriods to the surface of a planet after an LZ is secured.

Why not use their shuttles and re-entery pods to transport UEDF Destriods around?

ArmySGT. wrote:You have fighters by the hundred that you cannot use because the pilots have been micronized........ or can you....

Scads of poorly armed, poorly armored, flying coffins you say? Admiral Rick Hunter would be all over that if he knew about it... though you'd think the UEDF would break 'em down for scrap metal instead of using 'em, maybe build something with a better survivability record.

ArmySGT. wrote:One of the things about fighters is you can't stretch your legs, go to the bathroom, or get a cup of coffee....... That is magnified by long missions in space as Combat Air Patrol.......

Says who? The VF-1's cockpit was apparently roomy enough to admit (almost literal) giants like Hayao Kakizaki (Ben Dixon) and Roy Focker, who both topped 2m in height. The Southern Cross Arming Doublet looks like it could easily have had room in it for a waste collection pouch (it already looked like a big metal diaper anyway), and practically every VF to speak of had a pressurized cockpit that would enable a pilot to remove his helmet or faceplate to take a drink from a sealed drink pouch if need be.

As far as long missions in space for Combat Air Patrol purposes... that doesn't seem to be a thing in Robotech. They don't seem to stray very far from existing installations or ships, possibly because of the limited reaction mass capacity the relatively small fighters have or the advanced future tech sensors they have on their ships.

ArmySGT. wrote:All that space that formerly held a 50 humanoid giant in light infantry armor can now accommodate a two man (pilot/co-pilot crew) in an armored ejectable capsule.

10m = 32.8ft, not 50. Still, there's at least enough room for three or four people in there, as demonstrated in the series itself.

EDIT: As an example, this is production line art from the original Macross series (RT's "Macross Saga"), showing a normal human in scale to the interior of a Regult cockpit.

ArmySGT. wrote:There is even the possibility of two or three decks with accommodation for a second crew......

It ain't quite THAT roomy in there... but one, fairly large room would be easily workable, maybe with a porta-john off of one side.

ArmySGT. wrote:Thus long patrols of debris fields, asteroid fields, and escort missions can be accomplished with a refit for a micronian crew and reclassification as a corvette..

The Gnerl's not a long-range fighter craft, any more than the battle pod, battle suit, or VF-1 are... so it'd probably be a bad fit.

i'd say the gnerls could fit quite a bit.. if they can fit a restroom and galley into an Su-27 to make the Su-34, a Gnerl could have a roomy cockpit, a restroom, kitchen, and some bunks.. use hot bunking and you could have a watch rotation for long duration missions.

i'd already considered such conversions for my EBSIS.. part of their limited space force.

glitterboy2098 wrote:i'd say the gnerls coulf fit quite a bit.. if they can fit a restroom an Su-27 to make the Su, a Gnerl could have a roomy cockpit, a restroom, kitchen, and some bunks.. use hot bunking and you could have a watch rotation for long duration missions.

Also when it comes to space travel your engines don't have to be 'on' all the time. Drift and burn tactics would be the order of the day. Same applies to missiles. Heck a craft could get to a certain point, use reverse thrust to halt its acceleration and just sit there for a few days to see what shows up.

glitterboy2098 wrote:i'd say the gnerls could fit quite a bit.. if they can fit a restroom and galley into an Su-27 to make the Su, a Gnerl could have a roomy cockpit, a restroom, kitchen, and some bunks.. use hot bunking and you could have a watch rotation for long duration missions.

I dunno man, a Gnerl's not all that big... 20.6m (official size) makes it only marginally larger than a F/A-18E/F in terms of its length, and while its overall profile is larger a fair chunk of that is given over to engines, weaponry, fuel, etc. Its cockpit is almost certainly no roomier than a Glaug's, which is not that much roomier than a Regult's, just laid out somewhat differently. I don't think you'd have enough room to start installing a kitchenette and all that, but you'd easily be able to fit a four man crew and some basic facilities. Some beds down in the footwell might be do-able, though it would be a very low ceiling.

jedi078 wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:i'd say the gnerls coulf fit quite a bit.. if they can fit a restroom an Su-27 to make the Su, a Gnerl could have a roomy cockpit, a restroom, kitchen, and some bunks.. use hot bunking and you could have a watch rotation for long duration missions.

Also when it comes to space travel your engines don't have to be 'on' all the time. Drift and burn tactics would be the order of the day. Same applies to missiles. Heck a craft could get to a certain point, use reverse thrust to halt its acceleration and just sit there for a few days to see what shows up.

yep.
the way i'm setting it up, my EBSIS is prevent by treaty from building a full space navy.
so they refit a bunch of Fighter pods to be patrol ships for near orbital work (hey, SSTO and long duration quarters means you can do week long patrols with little support), and refit some Zent Shuttles into mecha carriers and zent landingpods into cargo carriers..
compared to the UEEF and ASC fleets, they'd not offer much, but it would let them do salvage work in the debris ring and secure their orbital space if needed. plus launch satellites and such.. always a moneymaker.

glitterboy2098 wrote:

jedi078 wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:i'd say the gnerls coulf fit quite a bit.. if they can fit a restroom an Su-27 to make the Su, a Gnerl could have a roomy cockpit, a restroom, kitchen, and some bunks.. use hot bunking and you could have a watch rotation for long duration missions.

Also when it comes to space travel your engines don't have to be 'on' all the time. Drift and burn tactics would be the order of the day. Same applies to missiles. Heck a craft could get to a certain point, use reverse thrust to halt its acceleration and just sit there for a few days to see what shows up.

yep.
the way i'm setting it up, my EBSIS is prevent by treaty from building a full space navy.
so they refit a bunch of Fighter pods to be patrol ships for near orbital work (hey, SSTO and long duration quarters means you can do week long patrols with little support), and refit some Zent Shuttles into mecha carriers and zent landingpods into cargo carriers..
compared to the UEEF and ASC fleets, they'd not offer much, but it would let them do salvage work in the debris ring and secure their orbital space if needed. plus launch satellites and such.. always a moneymaker.

Funny you mentioned the EBSIS. In my 7 year long running PBP game (back in 2006) the PC's were jumped by Gnerls converted into trans orbital fighters which were operated by the EBSIS.

Seto wrote:10m = 32.8ft, not 50. Still, there's at least enough room for three or four people in there, as demonstrated in the series itself.

&

Seto wrote:It ain't quite THAT roomy in there... but one, fairly large room would be easily workable, maybe with a porta-john off of one side.

Not arguing over the pilot height (dialogue does exist in RT that puts Zentreadi in that height range BTW in "Gloval's Report" IINM), but 3-4 people would be minimum assessment on a per level a full-size Zentreadi can contribute based on the footage. A cockpit-sized for a full-size Zentreadi though would have room for several levels to be put in.

With a full conversion it would turn into several levels easily (width of pilot seat x length). The number of levels one would get would be dictated by how much ceiling space one wants to devote, but one should be able to get at minimum 2 levels (and that assumes the cockpit is sized for a sitting Giant Zentreadi and they lose ~30% of their height when doing so based on human proportions). And some of these levels can be given over to non-crew functions (like an extra fuel tank).

Leaving the cockpit seat in would still allow one big level (where pilot sits) with another smaller level in the lower leg area, with at least one more level above the seat level on an interior-balcony system that hugs the back of seat and interior side walls.

In regards to crew accommodations, the Russian Su-34 Fullback is 23.34 m long and has a wingspan of 14.7 m. It's internal volume is considerably less than that of the Gnerl, but it at least gves a roughly reasonable comparison point.

Wikipedia on the Su-34 wrote:The Su-34's most distinctive feature is the unusually large flight deck. Much of the design work went into crew comfort. The two crew members sit side by side in a large cabin, with the pilot-commander to the left and navigator/operator of weapons to the right in NPP Zvezda K-36dm ejection seats. An advantage of the side by side cockpit is that duplicate instruments are not required for each pilot. Since long missions require comfort, it comprises pressurization allowing it to operate up to 10,000 metres (32,800 ft) without oxygen masks, which are available for emergencies and combat situations.[27] The crew members have room to stand and move about the cabin during long missions.[28][29] The space between the seats allows them to lie down in the corridor, if necessary.[27] A toilet and a galley are located behind the crew seats.[27][28]

Just think, though, of all the other things you can build with Gnerl components, if you have a hefty stockpile of 'em(or a working manufacturing plant)....automated high-boost probes, satellite launch vehicles, small personnel shuttles, unmanned rapid-response weapons platforms(like the 'Ghost' UAV)....

Why use the Gnerl when they have the Liberte fighter? Like Seto Kaiba said, break 'em down for scrap to use to build other mecha.

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:Why use the Gnerl when they have the Liberte fighter? Like Seto Kaiba said, break 'em down for scrap to use to build other mecha.

Because their already built........ and manufacturing crew capsules for Gnerls would consume less resources and have more mecha available than building other frames from scratch.

ArmySGT. wrote:Because their already built........ and manufacturing crew capsules for Gnerls would consume less resources and have more mecha available than building other frames from scratch.

Except the size of the Gnerl means you need far larger hangar bays than you would for the Liberte. What you save in construction you have to make up for in weight, size and other considerations when you stuff them on a spacecraft.

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:

ArmySGT. wrote:Because their already built........ and manufacturing crew capsules for Gnerls would consume less resources and have more mecha available than building other frames from scratch.

Except the size of the Gnerl means you need far larger hangar bays than you would for the Liberte. What you save in construction you have to make up for in weight, size and other considerations when you stuff them on a spacecraft.

Unless your already using Zentraedi ships........... Their already built too.... Even a Zentraedi ship without a spacefold system or main engines makes an impressive space based launch platform....

ArmySGT. wrote:Unless your already using Zentraedi ships........... Their already built too.... Even a Zentraedi ship without a spacefold system or main engines makes an impressive space based launch platform....

:facepalm:

Except that you can take the same ship and cram in more mecha, missiles and fuel cells if they're smaller. You get more bang for your buck.

ArmySGT. wrote:

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:Why use the Gnerl when they have the Liberte fighter? Like Seto Kaiba said, break 'em down for scrap to use to build other mecha.

Because their already built........ and manufacturing crew capsules for Gnerls would consume less resources and have more mecha available than building other frames from scratch.

Well, yes... they're already built, but you're talking about a not-insignificant investment of time and materials to make them usable by a miclone crew, or convert them into something they weren't originally designed to do. Having factory satellites apparently sucks a lot of the cost out of building new units, so it could conceivably be more economical to break up those surplus Gnerls for materials and build new, purpose-build craft that are smaller, but can do the same job, with better survivability and reliability and more versatility in their armament.

(The UEDF and UEEF seem to go for "whole hog" replacement of their forces whenever the latest thing comes out, so just pitching any remaining Gnerls and building something new wouldn't be unfeasible.)

I consider the Corsair to be an ASC configuration downscale and replacement for whatever converted Gnerls were once in service.

Long term, relying on original construction Gnerl frames for long term usage isn't a good idea. The airframes have likely had a lot of miles piled on them unless, by some happy happenstance, the UEDF came into possession of a working production line for them or a nice stockpile of hardly-used vehicles. Plus the Zentraedi tended to burn hard and fast and weren't soft on their vehicles. It wouldn't be long before the conversions started racking up serious maintenance time, and the cost savings of using them falling to the bite of maintaining a parallel logistical infrastructure. Even if the converted Gnerls used a large percentage of components of Terran standard manufacture in the refit portions, providing spares for the rest would in the long tun prove annoying.

On the plus side, many individual systems of the Gnerl are proven reliable and low-cost, and could be utilized elsewhere(or even produced).

I could see them used by full sized Zentraedi early on in order to bolster earth's defenses but as time goes by and the Zentraedi get micronized, in my opinion, recycling the materials etc would be the order of the day.

jaymz wrote:I could see them used by full sized Zentraedi early on in order to bolster earth's defenses but as time goes by and the Zentraedi get micronized, in my opinion, recycling the materials etc would be the order of the day.

About the only way I could see the REF using the Gnerl is if they have full-size Zentraedi forces they allied with while hunting for Tirol (post-Invid Invasion). Otherwise, the drain on logistics would be too great.

I meant early on post 1st war Rabid, sorry i should have been more specific.

until we get official stats on carpenter's fighters ('liberty' or 'vulture' or whatever speculative name has been appended to them) from HG or palladium, we can't know when it was introduced. was it developed 15 years before it appeared in the show? was it a new thing carpenter's ship was carrying? exactly what kind of performance does it have?

until we have answers to those, the claim that carpenter's fighters should be used instead of speculative converted Gnerl's is premature.

i can see Gnerl's being converted in the early post-war.. that is 2012 to about 2020 or so. when earth didn't yet have a factory sattelite they'd need a source of space capable fighter craft to supplement their own limited VF series production. it would be easier to rip out the seats and controls from a Gnerl and fit a human built command deck module than it would be to design and impliment a totally new fighter. especially since conversion to human controls could be done using work teams and premade components. the complex parts (airframe, engines, avionics) already exist, and those are the real bottlenecks in vehicle production. and Earth is not going ot want to rely on full size Zent's for everything. certainly Breetai's forces that survived would have kept using their Gnerl's, but converting excess Gnerl's to human controls means less fighters for renegades to get a hold of.

after earth gets the factory sattelite, they still can't really handle mecha work easily. you yourself Seto have pointed out that the factory they captured had malfunctioning mecha assembly lines.. so while they could certainly build fold drives and engines and such for starships more easily, and maybe repair some of the zent ones Breetai still had, they aren't building anything fancy with that factory. but the factory sat would have had a supply of Gnerls for its own defense.. why waste useful items?

and Gnerls would be easier to operate off the capture zent ships. those ships are going to have all the facilities for refilling the Gnerls with reaction mass, reloading its missile bays, etc.. converting those ships to service human mecha is going to be more expensive and more complex than just building some bridge pods to let humans fly Gnerls. in ships with mixed crews like we see with Breetai's ship, having some human crews to fly Gnerl's wouldn't be too much of an issue to accomidate. adding human sized quarters is going ot be much easier than refitting the hanger systems.

glitterboy2098 wrote:until we get official stats on carpenter's fighters ('liberty' or 'vulture' or whatever speculative name has been appended to them) from HG or palladium, we can't know when it was introduced. was it developed 15 years before it appeared in the show? was it a new thing carpenter's ship was carrying? exactly what kind of performance does it have?

It should, based on the treatment of its contemporaries, be a fighter that was developed in the period between the end of the 1st Robotech War and the departure of the Expeditionary Forces in 2022. It may be older than that, though, if it was standard on Tokugawa-class ships the way it seems to be in the series, since those were out and about before 2022.

As much as I would love to be able to offer OSM insights on that particular design, it's one of the many designs that were not given official coverage in the original Southern Cross materials.

glitterboy2098 wrote:until we have answers to those, the claim that carpenter's fighters should be used instead of speculative converted Gnerl's is premature.

Possibly, though there are other candidates for craft that could/would have been produced instead of converted Gnerls. I know the 2E books say the Falcon II and Sylphid both cropped up in that period (2015 and 2016 respectively according to 2E). The VF-X-4/YF-4 may have also been a credible argument against that prior to its retirement as a test article, which was replaced by the VF-6 series. The Logan cropped up in 2018 as well. They had the RFS from Spring 2013 on.

glitterboy2098 wrote:you yourself Seto have pointed out that the factory they captured had malfunctioning mecha assembly lines.. so while they could certainly build fold drives and engines and such for starships more easily, and maybe repair some of the zent ones Breetai still had, they aren't building anything fancy with that factory. but the factory sat would have had a supply of Gnerls for its own defense.. why waste useful items?

Well, if AotSC is anything to go by they weren't building their own fold drives... they were salvaging them from Zentradi wrecks. The RFS seems to have been used principally for new mecha development and testing, and for shipbuilding. It certainly wasn't in the best of shape when they got it, but it was working well enough to at least refine raw material to construct mecha with, which may have sped things up nicely in building new fighters.

In a related matter, I doubt the factory would've had its own supply of Gnerls or other mecha... Breetai supposedly all but totally wiped out its garrison force according to the narrator.

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:

ArmySGT. wrote:Unless your already using Zentraedi ships........... Their already built too.... Even a Zentraedi ship without a spacefold system or main engines makes an impressive space based launch platform....

:facepalm:

Except that you can take the same ship and cram in more mecha, missiles and fuel cells if they're smaller. You get more bang for your buck.

Except that we are talking about from the end of the First Robotech War to the launch of the mission to Tirol........

The Rain of Death destroyed most of the infrastructure and most of planetary population...... Everything including people to crew ships is going to be scarce...... Then their is the Army of the Southern Cross siphoning of men and material for their needs and separatists like the EBSIS who are uncooperative at best.

Then there is the overall ............ When is the next attack coming? Breetai was only one fleet........ Dolza's fleet was staggeringly huge but, again not the complete Zentraedi fleet........ With the loyalist fleet warning the Masters WILL come.

It is imperative to get any frames working and flying....... a reinforced crew capsule is far less material and work hours intensive than the design, testing, tooling, and certifications for an all new design.......Considering the level of fear and desperation wracking the survivors at the time..... I don't see why bother wouldn't be happening concurrently...... The converted Gnerls given priority to have something of than rocks to throw while Liberte and other designs are built, tested, and put into production.......

honestly, the only thing that makes the build up of the REF and the AofTSC is the Robotech factory........ with the factories, power plants, and transportation infrastructure blasted into non existence.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

ArmySGT. wrote:

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:Why use the Gnerl when they have the Liberte fighter? Like Seto Kaiba said, break 'em down for scrap to use to build other mecha.

Because their already built........ and manufacturing crew capsules for Gnerls would consume less resources and have more mecha available than building other frames from scratch.

Well, yes... they're already built, but you're talking about a not-insignificant investment of time and materials to make them usable by a miclone crew, or convert them into something they weren't originally designed to do. Having factory satellites apparently sucks a lot of the cost out of building new units, so it could conceivably be more economical to break up those surplus Gnerls for materials and build new, purpose-build craft that are smaller, but can do the same job, with better survivability and reliability and more versatility in their armament.

(The UEDF and UEEF seem to go for "whole hog" replacement of their forces whenever the latest thing comes out, so just pitching any remaining Gnerls and building something new wouldn't be unfeasible.)

Is it implied anywhere how long it takes to retool and change production on an assembly line for a Robotech factory satellite?

If it is a week, ok......... If it is years with an attack possible at anytime by another Zentraedi fleet or vengeful Robotech Masters......... probably going to put whatever you can into the air..

ArmySGT. wrote:

Seto Kaiba wrote:

ArmySGT. wrote:

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:Why use the Gnerl when they have the Liberte fighter? Like Seto Kaiba said, break 'em down for scrap to use to build other mecha.

Because their already built........ and manufacturing crew capsules for Gnerls would consume less resources and have more mecha available than building other frames from scratch.

Well, yes... they're already built, but you're talking about a not-insignificant investment of time and materials to make them usable by a miclone crew, or convert them into something they weren't originally designed to do. Having factory satellites apparently sucks a lot of the cost out of building new units, so it could conceivably be more economical to break up those surplus Gnerls for materials and build new, purpose-build craft that are smaller, but can do the same job, with better survivability and reliability and more versatility in their armament.

(The UEDF and UEEF seem to go for "whole hog" replacement of their forces whenever the latest thing comes out, so just pitching any remaining Gnerls and building something new wouldn't be unfeasible.)

Is it implied anywhere how long it takes to retool and change production on an assembly line for a Robotech factory satellite?

If it is a week, ok......... If it is years with an attack possible at anytime by another Zentraedi fleet or vengeful Robotech Masters......... probably going to put whatever you can into the air..

I would think retooling the line (especially the assembly portions) would be easy enough to do once it was decided what was to be produced.

ArmySGT. wrote:Except that we are talking about from the end of the First Robotech War to the launch of the mission to Tirol........

The Rain of Death destroyed most of the infrastructure and most of planetary population...... Everything including people to crew ships is going to be scarce...... Then their is the Army of the Southern Cross siphoning of men and material for their needs and separatists like the EBSIS who are uncooperative at best.

We know, man... but there are a bunch of new mecha that crop up during that period regardless. The VF-X-4 and VF-X-6 prototypes, the VF-X-7 failed test unit, many or all of the non-variable fighters used by the ASC and Expeditionary Forces (like the aforementioned Falcon II and Sylphid, and probably Carpenter's fighter as well), the VF-1R Valkyrie, VF-8 Logan, some early VF/A-6 Alphas, etc. There is a veritable boatload of stuff developed during that period.

ArmySGT. wrote:Then there is the overall ............ When is the next attack coming? Breetai was only one fleet........ Dolza's fleet was staggeringly huge but, again not the complete Zentraedi fleet........ With the loyalist fleet warning the Masters WILL come.

Which seems to be an uninformed statement by Gloval in the series (a partial relic of a line from the original), as we never see any other Zentradi forces except the garrison force that Breetai annihilates in "Viva Miriya". One ship took that out, and in the nebulously pseudo-canon Sentinels the UEEF seems confident that Earth is not in any danger of being attacked again. (Shows what they know, but hey...)

ArmySGT. wrote:It is imperative to get any frames working and flying....... a reinforced crew capsule is far less material and work hours intensive than the design, testing, tooling, and certifications for an all new design.......

Considering you're talking about adapting an alien craft, having to completely retool its controls and onboard systems to accommodate the new crew capsule, safety-test said capsule, it's more or less a wash. Probably why the solution that they came up with in-universe was to upgrade the existing fighters while new ones were being developed. That's where they got the VF-1R, which was their upgrade while the VF-X-4 and VF-X-6 were on the block. Shortly thereafter, they'd completed several non-transforming fighters like the Sylphid and Falcon II.

taalismn wrote:I consider the Corsair to be an ASC configuration downscale and replacement for whatever converted Gnerls were once in service.

Long term, relying on original construction Gnerl frames for long term usage isn't a good idea. The airframes have likely had a lot of miles piled on them unless, by some happy happenstance, the UEDF came into possession of a working production line for them or a nice stockpile of hardly-used vehicles. Plus the Zentraedi tended to burn hard and fast and weren't soft on their vehicles. It wouldn't be long before the conversions started racking up serious maintenance time, and the cost savings of using them falling to the bite of maintaining a parallel logistical infrastructure. Even if the converted Gnerls used a large percentage of components of Terran standard manufacture in the refit portions, providing spares for the rest would in the long tun prove annoying.

On the plus side, many individual systems of the Gnerl are proven reliable and low-cost, and could be utilized elsewhere(or even produced).

I wonder on that though..... The Robotech Masters fielded them with the expectation absolutely no maintenance other than a wash and a wax would be performed......... The Factory Satellite can churn out whole Gnerls, ordering parts, or simply lining up used machines to be recycled into new Gnerls with a human crew capsule then installed seems the economical choice.

ArmySGT. wrote:Is it implied anywhere how long it takes to retool and change production on an assembly line for a Robotech factory satellite?

Well, it's never said how long it took to restore the factory satellite in Robotech.

If the effort required is anything like what went into restoring the Quimeliquola 74,710,020,692nd* FAWDP in Macross's universe, bringing the plant up to ideal working conditions, it probably took about four years.

* The automated factory satellite that made the Queadluun-Rau for the 118th Zentradi main fleet.

ArmySGT. wrote:I wonder on that though..... The Robotech Masters fielded them with the expectation absolutely no maintenance other than a wash and a wax would be performed......... The Factory Satellite can churn out whole Gnerls, ordering parts, or simply lining up used machines to be recycled into new Gnerls with a human crew capsule then installed seems the economical choice.

Except that, in the series, it was shown to be in a pretty dire state of disrepair when it fell into human hands... Gloval's tour of the facilities later in the Macross Saga allows him to witness a line breakdown. If the Regult line was in shambles, it's likely the Gnerl production facilities were in no better shape, and unfit to manufacture new units.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

ArmySGT. wrote:Except that we are talking about from the end of the First Robotech War to the launch of the mission to Tirol........

The Rain of Death destroyed most of the infrastructure and most of planetary population...... Everything including people to crew ships is going to be scarce...... Then their is the Army of the Southern Cross siphoning of men and material for their needs and separatists like the EBSIS who are uncooperative at best.

We know, man... but there are a bunch of new mecha that crop up during that period regardless. The VF-X-4 and VF-X-6 prototypes, the VF-X-7 failed test unit, many or all of the non-variable fighters used by the ASC and Expeditionary Forces (like the aforementioned Falcon II and Sylphid, and probably Carpenter's fighter as well), the VF-1R Valkyrie, VF-8 Logan, some early VF/A-6 Alphas, etc. There is a veritable boatload of stuff developed during that period.

All those take time......... So for the first 3-5 years I see human crewed Gnerls doing the lion share of extended patrolling with the VF-1s clustered around the factory satellite and earth orbit....... until enough humans can be found, and trained...... the new craft designed and tested...

Expediency trumps best when your desperate....... The first years are going to be desperate.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

ArmySGT. wrote:Then there is the overall ............ When is the next attack coming? Breetai was only one fleet........ Dolza's fleet was staggeringly huge but, again not the complete Zentraedi fleet........ With the loyalist fleet warning the Masters WILL come.

Which seems to be an uninformed statement by Gloval in the series (a partial relic of a line from the original), as we never see any other Zentradi forces except the garrison force that Breetai annihilates in "Viva Miriya". One ship took that out, and in the nebulously pseudo-canon Sentinels the UEEF seems confident that Earth is not in any danger of being attacked again. (Shows what they know, but hey...)

Regardless of whether or not Gloval was or wasn't fully informed....... When is the NEXT attack coming is going to be on everyone's mind. There is going to be a desperate race to build, and build in order to prepare.. The series gives them what, ten years?

Seto Kaiba wrote:

ArmySGT. wrote:It is imperative to get any frames working and flying....... a reinforced crew capsule is far less material and work hours intensive than the design, testing, tooling, and certifications for an all new design.......

Considering you're talking about adapting an alien craft, having to completely retool its controls and onboard systems to accommodate the new crew capsule, safety-test said capsule, it's more or less a wash. Probably why the solution that they came up with in-universe was to upgrade the existing fighters while new ones were being developed. That's where they got the VF-1R, which was their upgrade while the VF-X-4 and VF-X-6 were on the block. Shortly thereafter, they'd completed several non-transforming fighters like the Sylphid and Falcon II.

Except that they have all the experience of getting completely alien technology rebuilt and operational in the form of the SDF-1..... The Gnerl, designed for the Zentraedi would be like repairing a horse drawn wagon.

ArmySGT. wrote:

Seto Kaiba wrote:

ArmySGT. wrote:Except that we are talking about from the end of the First Robotech War to the launch of the mission to Tirol........

The Rain of Death destroyed most of the infrastructure and most of planetary population...... Everything including people to crew ships is going to be scarce...... Then their is the Army of the Southern Cross siphoning of men and material for their needs and separatists like the EBSIS who are uncooperative at best.

We know, man... but there are a bunch of new mecha that crop up during that period regardless. The VF-X-4 and VF-X-6 prototypes, the VF-X-7 failed test unit, many or all of the non-variable fighters used by the ASC and Expeditionary Forces (like the aforementioned Falcon II and Sylphid, and probably Carpenter's fighter as well), the VF-1R Valkyrie, VF-8 Logan, some early VF/A-6 Alphas, etc. There is a veritable boatload of stuff developed during that period.

All those take time......... So for the first 3-5 years I see human crewed Gnerls doing the lion share of extended patrolling with the VF-1s clustered around the factory satellite and earth orbit....... until enough humans can be found, and trained...... the new craft designed and tested...

Expediency trumps best when your desperate....... The first years are going to be desperate.

As i understand it they still had Oberths and ARMDS that could be sent out to do those patrols with whatever craft they already had without a need for refitting Gnerls.....

ArmySGT. wrote:All those take time......... So for the first 3-5 years I see human crewed Gnerls doing the lion share of extended patrolling with the VF-1s clustered around the factory satellite and earth orbit....... until enough humans can be found, and trained...... the new craft designed and tested...

Um... it's gonna take time to analyze, and then re-engineer the Gnerl to be operated the way you assert too, y'know. It could conceivably take as much time to do that as it would to engineer a totally new craft, or design a cheap upgrade to make to the hundreds of existing VF-1s they were still sitting on.

ArmySGT. wrote:Expediency trumps best when your desperate....... The first years are going to be desperate.

Quite... though modifying Gnerls is not the most expedient solution by a long way. The most expedient solution is to make whatever modifications you need to your existing craft, like the VF-1. Low-impact performance enhancements like Super packs and the VF-1R upgrade are a more expedient alternative... especially since the former has already been tested on a large scale.

ArmySGT. wrote:When is the NEXT attack coming is going to be on everyone's mind. There is going to be a desperate race to build, and build in order to prepare.. The series gives them what, ten years?

17 years, actually. But the desperation doesn't seem to actually BE there in Robotech. Humanity seems to think it's relatively safe, with the Zentradi fleet utterly destroyed. They're patient enough to take a full eight years to build up the fleet to seek out the Robotech Masters, and confident enough that Earth will not be attacked to devote most of the UEG military resources to their operations in deep space.

ArmySGT. wrote:Except that they have all the experience of getting completely alien technology rebuilt and operational in the form of the SDF-1..... The Gnerl, designed for the Zentraedi would be like repairing a horse drawn wagon.

They don't, actually. Remember, they thought they had a handle on the SDF-1's tech and were proved wrong at just about every turn. They screwed up the gravity control system, missed the main gun's booby trap entirely, botched its fold system, and totally ignored a massive energy shield device that could've saved countless lives. That's just for openers. It would take a while for the UEG's scientists to get a handle on the Gnerl's systems before they could start modifying those craft to take human-scale cockpits. The Zentradi wouldn't be much help, since they don't know how any of that stuff is put together.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

ArmySGT. wrote:All those take time......... So for the first 3-5 years I see human crewed Gnerls doing the lion share of extended patrolling with the VF-1s clustered around the factory satellite and earth orbit....... until enough humans can be found, and trained...... the new craft designed and tested...

Um... it's gonna take time to analyze, and then re-engineer the Gnerl to be operated the way you assert too, y'know. It could conceivably take as much time to do that as it would to engineer a totally new craft, or design a cheap upgrade to make to the hundreds of existing VF-1s they were still sitting on.

Not really, your connecting a throttle to a throttle, a speedometer to a speedometer, start button to a start button.... Not reengineering anything and not newly educating themselves on something........

There isn't anything new in there.... Tear out the seat, weld in a frame, insert a capsule...... Start to finish I give them 30 days. That is just to come up with a comfortable capsule..... probably one torn from or mimicking something already familiar to REF pilots. shuttle perhaps? only with a 1000 less buttons.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

ArmySGT. wrote:Expediency trumps best when your desperate....... The first years are going to be desperate.

Quite... though modifying Gnerls is not the most expedient solution by a long way. The most expedient solution is to make whatever modifications you need to your existing craft, like the VF-1. Low-impact performance enhancements like Super packs and the VF-1R upgrade are a more expedient alternative... especially since the former has already been tested on a large scale.

That is expensive and doesn't increase your fleet...... in fact it takes more of them off the flightline.... increasing vulnerability when your unsure of an imminent attack. If you have a 1000 VF-1s and you take only 20 for refit at a time.... You run the risk of not having enough upgraded frames when you need them. If you take 500 off the flightline then you run the risk of not having enough frames at all should the attack comes.

The expedient answer is to build a substitute. Something that fills the gap. Adequate but, cost effective. Then pursue the more effective means. So it means the Gnerls get converted to micronian capable with crew capsules..... You have something for some militaristic Zentraedi to do. Patrol space and listen to Lynn Minmei on repeat. Then low rate upgrades commence on the VF fleet.

Admirals and Generals are very risk adverse.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

ArmySGT. wrote:When is the NEXT attack coming is going to be on everyone's mind. There is going to be a desperate race to build, and build in order to prepare.. The series gives them what, ten years?

17 years, actually. But the desperation doesn't seem to actually BE there in Robotech. Humanity seems to think it's relatively safe, with the Zentradi fleet utterly destroyed. They're patient enough to take a full eight years to build up the fleet to seek out the Robotech Masters, and confident enough that Earth will not be attacked to devote most of the UEG military resources to their operations in deep space.

17 years.... The don't know if they have 17 hours let alone days..... or what is coming. Are they patient, or do they simply not have enough humans and the material to make it happen.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

ArmySGT. wrote:Except that they have all the experience of getting completely alien technology rebuilt and operational in the form of the SDF-1..... The Gnerl, designed for the Zentraedi would be like repairing a horse drawn wagon.

They don't, actually. Remember, they thought they had a handle on the SDF-1's tech and were proved wrong at just about every turn. They screwed up the gravity control system, missed the main gun's booby trap entirely, botched its fold system, and totally ignored a massive energy shield device that could've saved countless lives. That's just for openers. It would take a while for the UEG's scientists to get a handle on the Gnerl's systems before they could start modifying those craft to take human-scale cockpits. The Zentradi wouldn't be much help, since they don't know how any of that stuff is put together.

I didn't say understand it... I said rebuild it and make it operational.... After all that happened or we would have had one episode and not 85. They rebuilt and made the SDF-1 operational, learned a thing or two, and integrated human technology here and there........

Comparing a Gnerl to the SDF-1....... What is that like? Comparing a beehive to Hong Kong?

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:Why use the Gnerl when they have the Liberte fighter? Like Seto Kaiba said, break 'em down for scrap to use to build other mecha.

In the show isn't it Gloval or Claudia who mentions that they need as many pods as they can lay their hands on as fast as they can during the Factory inspection in Ep31. The Gnerl, could be a seen as a type of pod mecha. Unless the UEDF has a large army of giants, any Zent. mecha is going to have to be converted for micronian crew.

Review the history of the UEEF Bioroid Interceptor (Manga pg122): "Throughout the first part of the journey, the Zentraedi had to make do with Fighter Pods and Battle Pods to partake in the defense of the Expeditionary fleet." It is unclear if the Zentraedi using the mecha are full/micro-sized, but it does appear the Fighter Pod (Gnerl) is used by human forces. Given the support nature for a full-size Zentreadi those mecha may have been converted over to human-size crews.

i also find it odd that Seto claims that humans can't really figure out zent/tirolian tech.. but has no problem also claiming that the factory sat lets them build huge forces of human mecha (something that would require a pretty darn good grasp of zent/tirolian tech)
said attitude also pretty much kills his claims that all the humans we see are clones.. if humans don't get zent/tirolian tech, no way in heck are they going to understand the cloning systems enough to use them the way Seto claims.

you can't have both states be true.. either humans don't know enough about zent/tirolian tech to be able to refit/rebuild the mecha and use the factory.... or they understand it pretty well, letting them do all the cloning and massive manufacturing and such you keep claiming they are doing in the show.

Using something does not equate to understanding how it works. We know they have managed to figure some out yet they use much beyond what they understand.

jaymz wrote:Using something does not equate to understanding how it works. We know they have managed to figure some out yet they use much beyond what they understand.

except that Seto is claiming they can't even use the stuff right.. which contradicts the scenario's he keep using to argue for cloned human populations, massive human mecha production, human ships using zent parts, etc..

i mean, if humans can't even fit a human radar screen, joystick, etc to zent avionics, how the hell are humans supposed to be able to use zent fold drives in their starships? or run the cloning chambers to make that huge clone population he's so fond of claiming? hell, how did they refit the SDF-1 in the first place?

the technology humans show in macross saga indicates that they've done some very good reverse engineering, both in terms of understanding how to combine zent and human tech, and in terms of reverse engineering the principles of stuff. and this before the 1st war even occurs. and the ASC and UEEF tech shows they continued to improve that understanding over time.

You have to define at what point the Humans make the sudden leap in understanding of all that Zentraedi/Tirolian tech. I can see that leap happening most certainly after acquiring another Factory Satellite with Tirolian crew or a Tirolian colony, where you can have Tirolian technicians helping you, but that comes rather late to allow the Terrans to refit the old boneyards of Zentraedi gear as a field expedient.

Then again, bear in mind that the refiting(and first deployment) of the SDF-1 was one big exercise in learning (what not to do*) with Tirolian technology.

*"Reinforce the hull over the anti-gravity generators." " Don't Fold in a gravity well." "Don't overload the shield generator close to a population center."

Very true. If humans are unable to work with alien technology, they could never have gotten the SDF-1 operational. Modifying the Gnerl would be child's play by comparison.

Jefffar wrote:Very true. If humans are unable to work with alien technology, they could never have gotten the SDF-1 operational. Modifying the Gnerl would be child's play by comparison.

Then again, Zor might have built the SDF-1's fittings with Ikea-like architecture that even we Earth-apes coudl inuit. And there's Lang's brainboost, if you subscribe to that...

ArmySGT. wrote:Not really, your connecting a throttle to a throttle, a speedometer to a speedometer, start button to a start button.... Not reengineering anything and not newly educating themselves on something........

No, it really isn't that simple... nor would it be, even on something as comparatively low-tech as a modern fighter. Even in the unlikely event that human computers work the exact same way as those in the Gnerl's systems, and the evidence that we have in the series points to a very definite "No", the engineers setting out to modify the Gnerl's flight control system to accept a "cockpit module" would need to do a thorough analysis of how all the various onboard systems communicate with each other, what messages they pass to perform specific operations, and all that jazz. That step is an absolute necessity for them to be able to bypass or remove the existing controls and graft human-built ones on top of them. If they didn't, a lot of nasty things could happen fairly easily, most of which fall under the category of "Fatal accidents". That kind of work, to fully analyze the workings of an unknown aircraft, would easily take months or years for a sizable research team with all the requisite tools.

For an example of what can go awry with even low-complexity "grafted" control systems... consider the Ariane 5 rocket, a multimillion dollar satellite launch platform rendered little more than a flying bomb by a single bad message format.

(In case you're wondering, I have considerable professional experience with this type of embedded controls conundrum.)

ArmySGT. wrote:That is expensive and doesn't increase your fleet...... in fact it takes more of them off the flightline.... increasing vulnerability when your unsure of an imminent attack.

It's less expensive in time, resources, and manpower than trying to analyze, reverse-engineer, and adapt an alien craft you have no prior experience with. In the case of the VF-1, the modular parts swap would actually be something that could be done fairly swiftly. It's just a replacement of the monitor turret and a patch to the FCS software (per OSM materials which describe similar modifications in the Macross universe).

As far as being unsure of imminent attack, the series and other materials are pretty consistent in telling us that the UEDF's top brass were fairly unconcerned about the possibility of another attack on Earth, and were instead focusing on preparing their forces for operations in deep space. That, therefore, would not be a factor.

ArmySGT. wrote:The expedient answer is to build a substitute. Something that fills the gap. Adequate but, cost effective.

So, not the Gnerl then... which would be a time-consuming, expensive analysis and modification programme that would be far more resource and manpower-intensive than upgrading VF-1s or using other, existing platforms.

ArmySGT. wrote:17 years.... The don't know if they have 17 hours let alone days..... or what is coming. Are they patient, or do they simply not have enough humans and the material to make it happen.

Patient would seem to be indicated by their attitude towards Earth's defense when they launch the Expeditionary Force on its mission to Tirol. They made rather a meal out of how they considered Earth to be in no immediate danger, and that the existing defense forces (minimal though they were) would be adequate without the SDF-3 present.

ArmySGT. wrote:I didn't say understand it... I said rebuild it and make it operational....

They clearly didn't do either... they "rebuilt" it, in that they took a wild guess and half the stuff they rebuilt didn't work. To analyze and modify a craft they have no experience with, like the Gnerl, is going to take a more significant investment both in terms of time and resources than upgrading an existing, human-made platform. Possibly even more than designing a new human-built platform.

ShadowLogan wrote:Review the history of the UEEF Bioroid Interceptor (Manga pg122): "Throughout the first part of the journey, the Zentraedi had to make do with Fighter Pods and Battle Pods to partake in the defense of the Expeditionary fleet." It is unclear if the Zentraedi using the mecha are full/micro-sized, but it does appear the Fighter Pod (Gnerl) is used by human forces.

In the coverage of the Bioroid Interceptor in AotSC, IIRC, it's implied that the Zentradi forces prior to its adoption had been operating at their normal size most of the time, and micloned in order to switch over to the new mecha.

glitterboy2098 wrote:i also find it odd that Seto claims that humans can't really figure out zent/tirolian tech.. but has no problem also claiming that the factory sat lets them build huge forces of human mecha (something that would require a pretty darn good grasp of zent/tirolian tech)

As jaymz pointed out, there is a sizable gulf between using something that is perfectly operational in the way that it was intended to be used (e.g. a Zentradi protoculture chamber or fold system) and actually understanding the principles on which it operates. There are many, explicit examples in Robotech of humans using working technology that they don't understand... like all of shadow technology, for instance. In this case, what we're talking about is modifying a craft they've had no prior experience with, to accept grafted-on human-made control systems, additional life support systems, and other features the Gnerl was never designed to have. That's not an easy task.

(To put it in perspective, I've seen relatively low-impact new features in cars like media center functionality and other trim doodads require hundreds of thousands or even millions of man-hours just to design and integrate into an existing platform. We're talking about grafting a whole new control system into an alien spacecraft humanity hasn't studied before, that's an entire world more complex than modifying a car... especially when human computer tech is not, by all indications, natively compatible with Tirolian computer technology.)

glitterboy2098 wrote:except that Seto is claiming they can't even use the stuff right.. which contradicts the scenario's he keep using to argue for cloned human populations, massive human mecha production, human ships using zent parts, etc..

No, I'm not claiming they can't use things right. I'm claiming they don't understand how the stuff functions, so modifying it is right out until they do. That learning process takes time. Simply using a system that's already fully functional does not actually require an understanding of how it functions. If it did, the Zentradi would be able to fix their own reflex furances without having to learn it from a human the way Khyron's men did. Similarly, you use a computer all the time, and I'd wager you don't have a working grasp of quantum electrodynamics, circuit theory, compiler theory, and the principles of operating systems. Hell, I work in software development and computer security, and I think I only understood about half of what we covered in the introduction to quantum electrodynamics during my undergrad.

glitterboy2098 wrote:ithe technology humans show in macross saga indicates that they've done some very good reverse engineering, both in terms of understanding how to combine zent and human tech, and in terms of reverse engineering the principles of stuff.

It shows the exact opposite, actually... the first few episodes show us that humanity didn't have a good grip on what they had just rebuilt even after ten solid years of study. They figured out a few things, like energy weapons and the like, but a lot of the more complex stuff they botched entirely. The gravity control system, the main gun, the fold drive, the barrier system. Most of what they did, they screwed up royally. Remember when Gloval launches the ship? He has them use a human-built engine system because those were Made-on-Earth and they at least knew those were built properly.

glitterboy2098 wrote:iand this before the 1st war even occurs. and the ASC and UEEF tech shows they continued to improve that understanding over time.

But what we're talking about is the immediate aftermath of the 1st Robotech War, when that understanding is still a work in progress. Even then, they weren't entirely developing their own tech. AotSC indicates that fold systems and other tech in their fleet were pinched from Zentradi warships they were salvaging.

We have, in the RPG, the explicit example of a Zentraedi mecha being fit with a human scale cockpit IMU style. So it is certainly possible to do so with a Gnerl as well.

A more advanced conversion that could be done systematically would also be possible if one had access to actual mecha production facilities.

I think you should just put a Valkerie in the cockpit. Sort of a Mecha within Mecha thing.

BTW I am NOT serious about this in any way. LOL.

Hystrix wrote:I think you should just put a Valkerie in the cockpit. Sort of a Mecha within Mecha thing.

BTW I am NOT serious about this in any way. LOL.

Sounds easy, but it would be like trying to pilot a jet using hand puppets. Unless you have some serious tech linkages or a cyber-psionic ability to bridge the interfaces, you're going to lose some manueverability and response time.

taalismn wrote:

Hystrix wrote:I think you should just put a Valkerie in the cockpit. Sort of a Mecha within Mecha thing.

BTW I am NOT serious about this in any way. LOL.

Sounds easy, but it would be like trying to pilot a jet using hand puppets. Unless you have some serious tech linkages or a cyber-psionic ability to bridge the interfaces, you're going to lose some manueverability and response time.

not to mention a VF-1 is about 12ft taller than a typical zent pilot.. and somewhat bulkier.

glitterboy2098 wrote:

taalismn wrote:

Hystrix wrote:I think you should just put a Valkerie in the cockpit. Sort of a Mecha within Mecha thing.

BTW I am NOT serious about this in any way. LOL.

Sounds easy, but it would be like trying to pilot a jet using hand puppets. Unless you have some serious tech linkages or a cyber-psionic ability to bridge the interfaces, you're going to lose some manueverability and response time.

not to mention a VF-1 is about 12ft taller than a typical zent pilot.. and somewhat bulkier.

Open cockpit flying...YEEEEHHHHHAAAAAAWWWWWWW!!!!!!!

Now I can't shake the image of a Gnerl with biplane wings, open cockpit, and VF-1 as pilot buzzing an airshow audience.

well, khyron is bigger than the typical zent, and he fits inside a Glaug officer pod, so obviously there is some accomidation for bigger sizes. but i don't think a VF-1 is articulated the same as a zent..

glitterboy2098 wrote:well, khyron is bigger than the typical zent, and he fits inside a Glaug officer pod, so obviously there is some accomidation for bigger sizes. but i don't think a VF-1 is articulated the same as a zent..

Certainly not! For one, you'd have to rip out the seat bottom so the VF could sit down without crushing its radome!

Jefffar wrote:We have, in the RPG, the explicit example of a Zentraedi mecha being fit with a human scale cockpit IMU style. So it is certainly possible to do so with a Gnerl as well.

Nobody's saying it's not possible, man. We're saying it's not an expedient/viable solution to a small craft shortage following the 1st Robotech War because humanity would have their work cut out for them adapting it with their (at the time) more limited understanding of the technology.

glitterboy2098 wrote:well, khyron is bigger than the typical zent, and he fits inside a Glaug officer pod, so obviously there is some accomidation for bigger sizes. but i don't think a VF-1 is articulated the same as a zent..

Well, if we were to accept Variable Fighter Master File: VF-1 Valkyrie Vol.1 as a viable source, it's actually pretty close to full humanoid articulation. The only sticking point would be the flexibility of the center torso, which is more limited than a flesh-and-blood organism due to the orientation of the cockpit.