Telemechanics and Simple Machines

[Killer Cyborg]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_machine
A simple machine is a mechanical device that changes the direction or magnitude of a force.[2] In general, a simple machine can be defined as one of the simplest mechanisms that provide mechanical advantage (also called leverage).[3]
Usually the term refers to the six classical simple machines which were defined by Renaissance scientists:[4]
Lever
Wheel and axle
Pulley
Inclined plane
Wedge
Screw

This has come up in conversations before, the idea of whether Telemechanics would be able to be used on, say, an Inclined Plane, or a Wedge.
And while I don't think that's exactly what KS had in mind when he came up with the power, so far, I can't think of much reason why NOT.

Just to refresh our memory on the Telemechanics description:
By touching any non-artificially intelligent machine, whether it be a bicycle, gun, car or airplane, the psionic will instantly have a complete (although temporary)( knowledge of exactly how the machine operates. I must stress that the psychic knows everything about the machine; the complete schematic diagram and operation knowledge are clearly seen in his mind's eye. The level of skill expertise is equal to 80%.

So, theoretically, a Psychic wishing to pull a lever could use Telemechanics on that lever, and understand everything about how that lever works.
Which, granted, a normal person could probably do just by looking at the lever. Levers really only work one way; they use leverage.
Likewise, a psychic could touch a wheelchair ramp, activate Telemechanics, and be able to use that wheelchair ramp at 80% proficiency.
Pretty cool, right...?

Maybe not so far.

BUT think about this: A blade is a wedge. Which means that a blade is a machine. Which means that any blade could be potentially used at 80% proficiency.
So you could pick up an axe, for example, and chop a tree at 80% proficiency.
Which isn't much different than picking up a chainsaw and using the chainsaw at 80% proficiency.
Or you could pick up a razor blade, and give yourself a nice shave at 80% proficiency.
Which isn't much different than picking up an electric razor and giving yourself a nice shave at 80% proficiency.

Makes sense to me so far. Potentially useful, but not overpowering as far as I can tell.

What about a weapon? What would it mean to be able to pick up any sword and have "80% proficiency" with it?
Well, this is just a guess, but I'd say that would give you an 80% chance per attack of using the weapon as if you had a Weapon Proficiency with it. Either a basic proficiency (level 1), or a proficiency based on your actual level, depending on GM's call.
Is it too much for a Super Psionic Power to give you ancient WPs on a temporary, sporadic (if fairly reliable) basis?
Wouldn't it work the same way for laser guns and such?

Anyway, mull this over. Think about the implications.
Can you break the game using the power this way, or at least unbalance it?
Would you allow the power to be used this way?

If so, what would the implications be for the other TM powers...?

[42dragon]

KC that is quite the question there. You made me think bravo .

I would rule im my games, if anyone ever came up with this, that yes it would be allowed due to clever use of game mechanics. I would allow it to give only level 1 WP skill for as long as the power is in effect. Using and learing to use weapons is more than just the pointy end goes in the opponent you are really training your body and reactions to use the weapons.

IRL I am an engineer. I know exactly how a sword works, a gun works, a rocket launcher works. Probably all at or above 80% proficiency. Do I really know how to use them in a stressful combat situation where someone is trying to kill me? Heck no.

But as I said in game, for clever use of mechanics I would allow it.

[Killer Cyborg]

KC that is quite the question there. You made me think bravo .

Thanks for replying!
I was starting to think that this topic would sink quietly and obscurely off the page, unnoticed.

I would rule im my games, if anyone ever came up with this, that yes it would be allowed due to clever use of game mechanics. I would allow it to give only level 1 WP skill for as long as the power is in effect. Using and learing to use weapons is more than just the pointy end goes in the opponent you are really training your body and reactions to use the weapons.

IRL I am an engineer. I know exactly how a sword works, a gun works, a rocket launcher works. Probably all at or above 80% proficiency. Do I really know how to use them in a stressful combat situation where someone is trying to kill me? Heck no.

But as I said in game, for clever use of mechanics I would allow it.

Makes sense to me, assuming you'd treat high-tech weapons the same way (i.e., level 1 WP for a laser pistol).
My only counter-thought would be that if you're piloting an airplane using Telemechanics, even though you don't have the years of flight hours, muscle memory, or training, you can apparently fly the thing at 80%, where somebody using the skill starts off at 50%, with only a +4% per level. So at 80%, you'd be the equivalent of an 8th level Pilot even if you'd never moved stepped foot in a plane before.

[42dragon]

Of course level 1 WP Energy weapons would be allowed as well.

Piloting I may rule a little differently. You know exactly how to operate the airplane, how to turn, take-off, land, fire weapons, ect.. All those at 80% no problem, and muscle memory is not such a big deal just to perform those actions. However once you got into advanced combat manuevers, and now G-forces and multiple things going on at once are interferring with your ability to perform those actions now I may apply some penalties to get you back down near that level 1 skill percentage.

Personnally I rarely apply penalties to skills, since you are only required to roll in complex or stressfull situations, that lower % to me indicates the difficult situation to begin with. But due to the nature of telemechanics, I would probably have them roll at the higher 80% even for simple stuff and then use those penalties when muscle memory or similar would come into play. You know by schematics that the Alternate Gear Down switch is on panel P1, but you still have to find it among other buttons, switches, and warning lights and you aren't really used to it.

[Prysus]

My only counter-thought would be that if you're piloting an airplane using Telemechanics, even though you don't have the years of flight hours, muscle memory, or training, you can apparently fly the thing at 80%, where somebody using the skill starts off at 50%, with only a +4% per level. So at 80%, you'd be the equivalent of an 8th level Pilot even if you'd never moved stepped foot in a plane before.

Greetings and Salutations. Actually, I'm not so sure about that part. You can operate the controls at 80%, sure. But it won't necessarily give you piloting at that level.

Let me go back to Ninjas & Superspies for a minute (only because it has a great example). You have Pilot: Automobile. Pilot: Professional Race Car, and Pilot: Truck. These all operate (for the most part) using the same controls. Steering wheel, ignition, gear shift, etc. So even I can pilot a car at 80% proficiency, even though the operation of the others is effectively the same, that doesn't mean it's all become one skill. Operation isn't the same as piloting.

How about a different example. Rifts has the Big Bore series of weapons. I believe at least some of those have a P.S. requirement. So even though you know how to operate it, doesn't mean you can use it in battle.

Now if a fighter pilot came across an alien fighter jet with alien controls, using this skill he'd probably still be able to fly and land it. Telemechanics fills in the operation (even aspects such as a heavy nose or some such), and his skills fill in the rest.

In a different example: Someone in PF could probably pick up a laser rifle that he's never seen before and use Telemechanics to operate it. He'd know the trigger, where the beam comes out (effectively how to aim), even how many shots it has in the e-Clip (that probably can't be recharged). However, that wouldn't necessarily give him the W.P. in it either.

On the other hand if our Man of Arms picks up an alien plasma rifle, can't find the trigger or targeting sights, the Telemechanics ability will fill that in for him. If he has the W.P. (Heavy Energy?) he's good to go! Full W.P. and everything even though it's an item he's never operated before.

Knowledge of how something works isn't the same as skill in doing it. It's like someone reading every book in the world about how cars work. He knows how to build them, repair them, and (in theory) how to drive. But if he's never actually driven before, I wouldn't say that makes him an expert driver.

Real life example: At one job I work there's a machine that shrinkwraps pallets for you. It has about ... 6 or 7 controls, only 3 of which you actually use (for what we do). There are people who know how to operate it (they know the buttons to use), but they don't do so with any skill. That's why boxes go flying off the top all the time when they go too fast. However, they knew how to operate it (which controls they were supposed to use).

*Shrugs.* Maybe I'm being too literal. While I see the point, I don't think I agree with the interpretation (though it is a valid interpretation). Anyways, I think that's all for now. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Daniel Stoker]

Makes sense to me, assuming you'd treat high-tech weapons the same way (i.e., level 1 WP for a laser pistol).
My only counter-thought would be that if you're piloting an airplane using Telemechanics, even though you don't have the years of flight hours, muscle memory, or training, you can apparently fly the thing at 80%, where somebody using the skill starts off at 50%, with only a +4% per level. So at 80%, you'd be the equivalent of an 8th level Pilot even if you'd never moved stepped foot in a plane before.

It's a hard question to answer... flying a plane is more knowing the controls and how they work, you need to know how weather and wind is going to effect things and if you can argue that Telemechanics can give you that I can see you arguing that it would let you know how to fight with a sword. The problem is I'd tend to think melee combat which requires other skills then just knowing how the weapon works and how to use it, you need to know when to use it, when to parry, when to cut, when to thrust, not just how to cut and how to thrust and how to parry. With a gun or crossbow or even a bow you really just need to know how to get the thing that hurts to the target.


Daniel Stoker

[Killer Cyborg]

Makes sense to me, assuming you'd treat high-tech weapons the same way (i.e., level 1 WP for a laser pistol).
My only counter-thought would be that if you're piloting an airplane using Telemechanics, even though you don't have the years of flight hours, muscle memory, or training, you can apparently fly the thing at 80%, where somebody using the skill starts off at 50%, with only a +4% per level. So at 80%, you'd be the equivalent of an 8th level Pilot even if you'd never moved stepped foot in a plane before.

It's a hard question to answer... flying a plane is more knowing the controls and how they work, you need to know how weather and wind is going to effect things and if you can argue that Telemechanics can give you that I can see you arguing that it would let you know how to fight with a sword. The problem is I'd tend to think melee combat which requires other skills then just knowing how the weapon works and how to use it, you need to know when to use it, when to parry, when to cut, when to thrust, not just how to cut and how to thrust and how to parry. With a gun or crossbow or even a bow you really just need to know how to get the thing that hurts to the target.

Daniel Stoker

Well, with a motorcycle, for example, I'd say that you don't just need to know how to accelerate, how to brake, how to turn left and right... you'd also need to know when to do these things.
A good chunk of most piloting skills involve timing, and Telemechanics seems to have that part covered.

[Killer Cyborg]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_machine
A simple machine is a mechanical device that changes the direction or magnitude of a force.[2] In general, a simple machine can be defined as one of the simplest mechanisms that provide mechanical advantage (also called leverage).[3]
Usually the term refers to the six classical simple machines which were defined by Renaissance scientists:[4]
Lever
Wheel and axle
Pulley
Inclined plane
Wedge
Screw

This is the first problem. I'm pretty sure that Kevin did not choose the definition used by Renaissance scientists as the basis for a psychic power.

The definition is still used today.

This whole premise of yours is fairly questionable.

Yes.

This has come up in conversations before, the idea of whether Telemechanics would be able to be used on, say, an Inclined Plane, or a Wedge.
And while I don't think that's exactly what KS had in mind when he came up with the power, so far, I can't think of much reason why NOT.

That, in itself, is not really a valid argument: because we don't know what something is, we can't conclude that it is a certain way based on our lack of knowledge.

It's not an argument at all. It's a claim.

If Kevin had intended it to be more basic that this, it seems like he would've used an example.

As I said, "I don't think that's exactly what KS had in mind when he came up with the power."

So, theoretically, a Psychic wishing to pull a lever could use Telemechanics on that lever, and understand everything about how that lever works.
Which, granted, a normal person could probably do just by looking at the lever. Levers really only work one way; they use leverage.
Likewise, a psychic could touch a wheelchair ramp, activate Telemechanics, and be able to use that wheelchair ramp at 80% proficiency.
Pretty cool, right...?

Well, the psychic could understand how to use a wheelchair ramp, but they couldn't manipulate it in any way. I'm sort of unclear on what you are saying here.

Just that.

Maybe not so far.
BUT think about this: A blade is a wedge. Which means that a blade is a machine. Which means that any blade could be potentially used at 80% proficiency.

No: you're making a huge extrapolation that is completely based on semantics. "A blade is a wedge"? No, a blade has a wedge-shape. If a blade were a wedge, it would no longer be a blade; it would be a wedge. You're trying to use the word "wedge" interchangably with "blade", but they are clearly two different items.

All blades are wedges. Not all wedges are blades.
A blade is a kind of wedge.

For that matter, a club is a kind of lever.

[Killer Cyborg]

All blades are wedges. Not all wedges are blades.
A blade is a kind of wedge.

For that matter, a club is a kind of lever.

Technically a blade is a wedge, yes. But we both know that when someone is talking about "using a wedge" (eg. to chop wood), they are not talking about a sword or a bladed weapon of some kind. It seems that you're trying to use the broadest definition of "wedge" and apply it to a very specific argument.

I'm using the technical sense of wedge, in the context of a technical discussion.
That's the correct sense in this conversation.

[Killer Cyborg]

I think that the power would bestow Wp: chainsaw at level-12(80% skill) but wouldn't apply to non-machine type weapons. Yes I know by saying this any modern weapon can be picked up and used at 12th level skill.

That's an interesting take!
Makes the skill quite powerful.

But you'd only allow that with modern machines, not simple machines?
So you could pick up a vibro-sword and use it at 12th level, but not a normal sword?

[Killer Cyborg]

A Vibro-Sword is a tech weapon so yes it would function at level-12, BUT a Silver or Magical Sword then no.

Well, I'd say that any sword is a tech weapon... but I think I get your meaning.

[Tor]

Even if Wikipedia says a wedge is a machine, I don't buy it, to me a machine's gotta have at least 1 moving part. Like a flail.