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What can you do with one of these?

Obviously use it as intended with either the control cabin re-engineered for micronians or for an AI....

Drop ship to put down Company strength units of Cyclone riders and support vehicles.

Mobile repair shop to get damaged mecha units back into the fight.

Mobile science laboratory with multiple levels installed and a small 1-2 REF or ASC sized mecha and conventional vehicles sized bay. All other internal spaces given over to laboratories, living quarters, and environmental systems.

Combat outpost.
Small mecha and conventional vehicles bay, living quarters for a small crew, and a small (maximum platoon strength) element. Updated with ECM, advanced comms station, medical bay (up to six), and AAA and counter missile turrets. Intended to support detailed REF reconnaissance missions, or military specialist sabotage and harassment missions.

Drop armory... fully automated re-armament depot. Intended to completely reload REF and allied mecha or conventional vehicles with missile complements or other conventional munitions. Former crew deck converted to a spartan accommodation for a leader, pilot, comms, and several bio-maintenance engineers.

Forgot one.

Command Post.

A converted Re-entry Pod meant to operate as a ground based Command Post for a minimum Brigade Strength element. A lower vehicle deck for conventional vehicles and cyclones is that remains of the mecha carrying capacity. The remaining interior is given over to quarters, environmental systems, and C3I spaces for a Colonel and above to command a large force occupying a three dimensional battle field. Multiple military specialists, and comms specialists assist. The pod has been refit with substantial ECW, and point defense systems to improve survivability.

You have to keep in mind the size of those things...you are going to have more that 1 company of Cyclone Riders in there....a company is about 160 or so people....and the Macross book says these hold 160 FULL SIZED Zentraedi. You would probably be looking at a fully supported battalion being put down and have a command bubble / war room in the re-entry pod to direct the operation. This force would include all Cyclones, Silverbacks and other support vehicles and might even have room for some Condors.

On top of this would be the air assets that would escort the pod down and provide air support for the invasion force.

Stack it full of Horizont bunkers.
Pocket fighter carrier.
If it doesn't have an engine, make it into a private residence or an orbital habitat module.

Chris0013 wrote:You have to keep in mind the size of those things...you are going to have more that 1 company of Cyclone Riders in there....a company is about 160 or so people....and the Macross book says these hold 160 FULL SIZED Zentraedi. You would probably be looking at a fully supported battalion being put down and have a command bubble / war room in the re-entry pod to direct the operation. This force would include all Cyclones, Silverbacks and other support vehicles and might even have room for some Condors.

On top of this would be the air assets that would escort the pod down and provide air support for the invasion force.

All at once, yes, it could carry down a larger sized force. Thinking that those forces are going to need to support themselves for a period before resupply becomes safe enough to be routine. That force is going to need to bring down food, ammunition, water, and medical supplies to sustain themselves for days at a time (minimum 72).

ArmySGT. wrote:

Chris0013 wrote:You have to keep in mind the size of those things...you are going to have more that 1 company of Cyclone Riders in there....a company is about 160 or so people....and the Macross book says these hold 160 FULL SIZED Zentraedi. You would probably be looking at a fully supported battalion being put down and have a command bubble / war room in the re-entry pod to direct the operation. This force would include all Cyclones, Silverbacks and other support vehicles and might even have room for some Condors.

On top of this would be the air assets that would escort the pod down and provide air support for the invasion force.

All at once, yes, it could carry down a larger sized force. Thinking that those forces are going to need to support themselves for a period before resupply becomes safe enough to be routine. That force is going to need to bring down food, ammunition, water, and medical supplies to sustain themselves for days at a time (minimum 72).

If you take large mecha like Condors out of the equation then you would probably have at least 3 levels built in there with ramps that connect the levels...between Cyclones, Silverbacks and AAT-30s and AAT-40s as support vehicles you would have the troops and vehicles on the bottom 2 levels and beans, bullets and band-aids on the top level to resupply....I would estimate maybe a weeks worth of supplies to keep the group in the field and secure a beachhead for follow on forces.

I wouldn't want to try using it as a defensible fortification, since like all Zentradi hardware it's armored with crepe paper and wishful thinking, but the rest is certainly sound. I've used them in a few games as specialized landers carrying large hardware like the digging equipment and active components for laying a gravity minefield, and I still have some Zentradi units in the UN Spacy Marines using 'em as dedicated troop landers for infantry and recovery of damaged Queadluun-Rhea battle suits.

The hull would be a lot tougher than a canvas tent. And it is not really meant to be a permanent fortification.

Big fishing trawler(we know they can float to recover Regults) with surface to space capacity to carry their haul to where it's needed.
Greenpeace would be investing in SAMs after a few such 'fish raids'.

taalismn wrote:Big fishing trawler(we know they can float to recover Regults) with surface to space capacity to carry their haul to where it's needed.
Greenpeace would be investing in SAMs after a few such 'fish raids'.

How 'bout converting one into a mobile, self-contained mess hall for a UEEF ground force in the field?

Seto Kaiba wrote:

taalismn wrote:Big fishing trawler(we know they can float to recover Regults) with surface to space capacity to carry their haul to where it's needed.
Greenpeace would be investing in SAMs after a few such 'fish raids'.

How 'bout converting one into a mobile, self-contained mess hall for a UEEF ground force in the field?

A complete, chow hall, shower, and laundry, with a PX to fill up on lickies and chewies.

ArmySGT. wrote:

Seto Kaiba wrote:

taalismn wrote:Big fishing trawler(we know they can float to recover Regults) with surface to space capacity to carry their haul to where it's needed.
Greenpeace would be investing in SAMs after a few such 'fish raids'.

How 'bout converting one into a mobile, self-contained mess hall for a UEEF ground force in the field?

A complete, chow hall, shower, and laundry, with a PX to fill up on lickies and chewies.

That front hatch could fold down into one massive patio/stage all right.

Along a similar vein, how about a mobile living quarters/barracks conversion?

Partition out the interior, and fill it with bunkrooms, showers, toilets, and the other things that seem like luxuries compared to a bedroll and a latrine pit. Maybe throw in a little smallish office space for the senior officers. The barracks can follow the army on the march, and uproot itself as fast or faster than the ground forces it's attached to.

Bombardment.

Sometimes ships can't get into low orbit. Sometimes you can't poke your head over the hill to see the target. Sometimes the other guys ECM is better than your ECCM. That calls for plain jane, rain of steel.

The reentry pod is escorted down from orbit, beyond the horizon from the target. The maneuvers to a point by use of its own thrusters and engines orienting the large bay door in the direction of enemy forces.

Setting down the main pod door opens and a platform with support legs extends. Onto this slides a turret with 406mm barrels (4-6) from the MAC II program. Internal systems provide power, automated reload systems replenish the turrets ready ammunition. 406mm ammunition is carried internally in armored compartments with a secondary shield system that protects the crafts interior. A catastrophic explosion on onboard munitions is directed by the shield toward the exterior hull by virtue this failsafe only protects the floor, ceiling, and internal walls.

Decks above house a flight deck, an operations center, a fire direction center, communications and tactical net hub, as well as environmental engineering, a mess deck, and spartan quarters.

The indirect fire with conventional or rocket assisted munitions is that extra punch to clear an area or reduce any enemy forces before committing a commanders troops.

ArmySGT. wrote:Sometimes ships can't get into low orbit. Sometimes you can't poke your head over the hill to see the target. Sometimes the other guys ECM is better than your ECCM. That calls for plain jane, rain of steel.

Low orbit? I know that's a common sci-fi convention for orbital bombardment and all, but that's not actually necessary in Robotech. The first orbital bombardment in the series, one carried out by Britai's fleet, was done from somewhere in the vicinity of lunar orbit... 320,000km away. This range is confirmed a few times in the first three episodes, Britai's ships are able to engage in precision bombardment of a small island, precisely enough to destroy the city around the SDF-1 but not hit the ship itself or miss the island, and do so from hundreds of thousands of kilometers away.

it was precision for the scale involved, but it was still pretty random overall.
for tactical work you'd want to be able to pick off one particular unit/bunker/emplacement/etc. surgically. for that a closer orbit where you can get finer control would be good.

glitterboy2098 wrote:it was precision for the scale involved, but it was still pretty random overall.
for tactical work you'd want to be able to pick off one particular unit/bunker/emplacement/etc. surgically. for that a closer orbit where you can get finer control would be good.

I dunno if you'd call it imprecise, from that same position in the very next episode they were able to skim the SDF-1's hull without hitting it, and shred ships in extremely close proximity without really damaging the ship they intended to capture.

And we mustn't forget that the Macross turned two ships into not much more than memories at the same range

ArmySGT. wrote:Bombardment.

Sometimes ships can't get into low orbit. Sometimes you can't poke your head over the hill to see the target. Sometimes the other guys ECM is better than your ECCM. That calls for plain jane, rain of steel.

The reentry pod is escorted down from orbit, beyond the horizon from the target. The maneuvers to a point by use of its own thrusters and engines orienting the large bay door in the direction of enemy forces.

Setting down the main pod door opens and a platform with support legs extends. Onto this slides a turret with 406mm barrels (4-6) from the MAC II program. Internal systems provide power, automated reload systems replenish the turrets ready ammunition. 406mm ammunition is carried internally in armored compartments with a secondary shield system that protects the crafts interior. A catastrophic explosion on onboard munitions is directed by the shield toward the exterior hull by virtue this failsafe only protects the floor, ceiling, and internal walls.

Decks above house a flight deck, an operations center, a fire direction center, communications and tactical net hub, as well as environmental engineering, a mess deck, and spartan quarters.

The indirect fire with conventional or rocket assisted munitions is that extra punch to clear an area or reduce any enemy forces before committing a commanders troops.

Well the MAC Barrel life is supposedly fairly short (90-30shots depending on the source), so you would need to be able to replace them. Not sure how easy that would be here. Maybe going with a battery of 105mm would be better. In any case why go with the MAC when you can probably mount SDF/Tri-Star class Railguns to do the job (ship might not be able to do much else, but...).

If we believe the animation, the Re-Entry Pod isn't unarmed either ("Blind Game", IIRC it appears to join in as part of the Zentraedi warning barrage that takes out the radar).

Orbital THOR bombardment platform----load it full of 'smart girders' to drop from orbit, when you can't, or don't need, a full warship laser battery to provide orbital bombardment.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:it was precision for the scale involved, but it was still pretty random overall.
for tactical work you'd want to be able to pick off one particular unit/bunker/emplacement/etc. surgically. for that a closer orbit where you can get finer control would be good.

I dunno if you'd call it imprecise, from that same position in the very next episode they were able to skim the SDF-1's hull without hitting it, and shred ships in extremely close proximity without really damaging the ship they intended to capture.

camk4evr wrote:And we mustn't forget that the Macross turned two ships into not much more than memories at the same range

it's still aim adjustments being measured against targets measured in Kilometers, when the kind of tactical support we're talking about is measured against targets of meters.

it's the difference between an Arclight mission by a B52 and a CAS run by an A10..

glitterboy2098 wrote:it's still aim adjustments being measured against targets measured in Kilometers, when the kind of tactical support we're talking about is measured against targets of meters.

it's the difference between an Arclight mission by a B52 and a CAS run by an A10..

Orbit at any altitude is going to be a heck of a lot closer than what they achieved those aforementioned feats of battleship marksmanship with, so their accuracy should be tighter still. Low orbit would not, and should not, be a necessity for ships with that insane level of accuracy to provide fire support.

This issue with orbital bombardment raises an aspect that is being over looked, and it isn't about accuracy. Unless the ships are performing energy intensive propulsion maneuvers, their orbit will determine the windows they will have to fire over a given target area. And perform maneuvers to keep the target area in view on each pass.

Low Orbit altitudes will have a narrow window that a single ship can provide support, it will also have to execute maneuvers to keep passing over the target area. This means you will need several ships to make passes or have gaps when you aren't raining artillery down on a target. It would probably be easier and more efficient to simply put the ship in to a high altitude holding pattern than low orbit to provide fire support.

Higher orbits will have larger windows, but depending on the position may still need to execute maneuvers to keep the target area in sight (most energy efficient orbit would be a synchronous position over the target area).

ShadowLogan wrote:This issue with orbital bombardment raises an aspect that is being over looked, and it isn't about accuracy. Unless the ships are performing energy intensive propulsion maneuvers, their orbit will determine the windows they will have to fire over a given target area.

A more important, but related, question to ask ourselves is... are these ships really concerned about how energy-intensive any orbital maneuver might be? Based on the show, I'd have to go with "almost certainly not". We're are, after all, talking about a series in which interstellar and even intergalactic travel apparently isn't much to write home about, so some minor orbital maneuvering probably wouldn't even draw attention in terms of energy consumption.

ShadowLogan wrote:And perform maneuvers to keep the target area in view on each pass.

That doesn't seem to be a problem for 'em in the series, even as far out as lunar orbit.

Lots of excellent ideas here guys......consider them all stolen MUAHAHAHA

Seto Kaiba wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:it's still aim adjustments being measured against targets measured in Kilometers, when the kind of tactical support we're talking about is measured against targets of meters.

it's the difference between an Arclight mission by a B52 and a CAS run by an A10..

Orbit at any altitude is going to be a heck of a lot closer than what they achieved those aforementioned feats of battleship marksmanship with, so their accuracy should be tighter still. Low orbit would not, and should not, be a necessity for ships with that insane level of accuracy to provide fire support.

So the reciprocal is that ground based energy weapon systems (example: the Grand Cannon) can reach 380,000 kilometers or more...... Therefore, to dangerous for spacecraft to appear above the planetary horizon. So an indirect fire weapon that can deliver large concentrations of MDC indirect fire to reduce enemy structures, disrupt enemy attacks, and damage or demoralize enemy forces is a necessity.

406mm cannon (U.S. naval gunfire caliber) fits that. Especially with upgrades like GPS guidance or laser guided munitions, rocket assisted munitions (extends range), base bleed munitions (extends range), and improved conventional munitions (bomblets).

ArmySGT. wrote:So the reciprocal is that ground based energy weapon systems (example: the Grand Cannon) can reach 380,000 kilometers or more...... Therefore, to dangerous for spacecraft to appear above the planetary horizon.

In theory, yeah... but while the Grand Cannon was an area-fire weapon of the last resort, most starship-scale beam weaponry is pinpoint precise and able to hit very small, moving targets at extreme ranges.

ArmySGT. wrote:So an indirect fire weapon that can deliver large concentrations of MDC indirect fire to reduce enemy structures, disrupt enemy attacks, and damage or demoralize enemy forces is a necessity.

Guided missile what?

Seto Kaiba wrote:

ArmySGT. wrote:So the reciprocal is that ground based energy weapon systems (example: the Grand Cannon) can reach 380,000 kilometers or more...... Therefore, to dangerous for spacecraft to appear above the planetary horizon.

In theory, yeah... but while the Grand Cannon was an area-fire weapon of the last resort, most starship-scale beam weaponry is pinpoint precise and able to hit very small, moving targets at extreme ranges.

So the guided converging beam cannons of Zentraedi starships on the ground, or purpose build versions are just as dangerous going the other way. I would believe that the Tirolian versions outrange the Zentraedi weapons just on general principle. Insurrections apparently being a drone trait.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

ArmySGT. wrote:So an indirect fire weapon that can deliver large concentrations of MDC indirect fire to reduce enemy structures, disrupt enemy attacks, and damage or demoralize enemy forces is a necessity.

Guided missile what?

Bombardment, not precision strike. Artillery shells are always more cost effective than high tech and expensive dedicated missiles. Area effect or rotating grid squares over to the unused side.

The U.S. Army figured this out finally and re-issued the 90mm recoilless rifle, as using Javelins on sniper and MG positions was getting costly.

ArmySGT. wrote:So the guided converging beam cannons of Zentraedi starships on the ground, or purpose build versions are just as dangerous going the other way.

Assuming they're powered equally, yeah... I have to wonder if a surface-based non-permanent installation is going to have a sufficient power source to operate those cannons.

ArmySGT. wrote:Bombardment, not precision strike.

's what you have starships for. Robotech's United Earth Forces stopped using conventional cannons after the Monster was retired. Bullets are cheaper than missiles, but beams are cheaper than both and can be much nastier than either when employed properly.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

ArmySGT. wrote:So the guided converging beam cannons of Zentraedi starships on the ground, or purpose build versions are just as dangerous going the other way.

Assuming they're powered equally, yeah... I have to wonder if a surface-based non-permanent installation is going to have a sufficient power source to operate those cannons.

Why would they not be? If it came out of a starship, then so can the reflex furnace or fusion reactors. If it is part of a purpose built installation, why would generators and capacitors capable not be part of the installation. Damned more space and flexibility in a ground installation than integrated into a starship hull.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

ArmySGT. wrote:Bombardment, not precision strike.

's what you have starships for. Robotech's United Earth Forces stopped using conventional cannons after the Monster was retired. Bullets are cheaper than missiles, but beams are cheaper than both and can be much nastier than either when employed properly.

Beams don't work in indirect fire. Rise above the horizon and you present a target to fire back at.

ArmySGT. wrote:Why would they not be? If it came out of a starship, then so can the reflex furnace or fusion reactors. If it is part of a purpose built installation, why would generators and capacitors capable not be part of the installation.

If the base is only a temporary installation (as most of the UEEF's bases probably were), it might not be practical to install a power system large enough to meet the demands of an anti-capital ship beam weapon array on hot standby. Weirdly, most UEEF bases don't seem to have ANY defenses to speak of... not Moon Base ALuCE, not Space Station Liberty, not the post-capture factory satellite, and not the UEEF compound in Tiresia City on Tirol. Even Edwards covert base on Optera didn't seem to have any actual ground-based defense guns.

Seto Kaiba wrote:Beams don't work in indirect fire. Rise above the horizon and you present a target to fire back at.

Aaaaactually... there are some documented instances of "bendy beams" in both Robotech and two of its component series. Macross even has a special term for that class of weapon (high-angle guided beam cannons) which rely upon similar technology to a pinpoint barrier to bend the beam from a fixed emitter to any angle necessary.

Seto wrote:A more important, but related, question to ask ourselves is... are these ships really concerned about how energy-intensive any orbital maneuver might be? Based on the show, I'd have to go with "almost certainly not". We're are, after all, talking about a series in which interstellar and even intergalactic travel apparently isn't much to write home about, so some minor orbital maneuvering probably wouldn't even draw attention in terms of energy consumption.

Unfortunately it is hard to say. My impression is though that they are concerned, or the fleet is sufficiently high enough in orbit or dispersed enough to minimize the issue.

Seto wrote:That doesn't seem to be a problem for 'em in the series, even as far out as lunar orbit.

This is more of an issue for LEO altitudes to surface. At GEO it would be a non-issue. Lunar orbit is such a distance that a firing window would remain open for hours, instead of minutes for LEO, for surface bombardment. In all cases firing at an object in orbit (LEO, GEO, out by Lunar) to a lower/higher orbit would create firing windows. yes the ships can move, but it can get intensive to maintain. And not all the parties are experienced (ex. UEDF:RDF) or have have the reserves (ex. Masters), or appear to take up position (UEEF).

ArmySGT. wrote:So the reciprocal is that ground based energy weapon systems (example: the Grand Cannon) can reach 380,000 kilometers or more...... Therefore, to dangerous for spacecraft to appear above the planetary horizon. So an indirect fire weapon that can deliver large concentrations of MDC indirect fire to reduce enemy structures, disrupt enemy attacks, and damage or demoralize enemy forces is a necessity.

Still would not require putting ships down on the surface to provide that indirect fire. You would still need a solid projectile (bullet, shell, missile, etc), but it could still be done. The projectile would need to be able to withstand re-entry. Basically objects in orbit don't follow straight lines, they curve, so you could release an object while in orbit into a "deorbit" trajectory for impact into the surface allowing indirect fire. It would require constant updates for each round fired, but could be done. Basically this is how trash is disposed of on several space stations (though it is intended to burn up w/re-entry).

It is unlikely the Grand Cannon was a success. Even when it was built, according to Gloval there was only one person pushing for it (Admiral Hayes), so it is unlikely to survive post-Rain. By TRM Earth's surface to orbit options appear to be missile based, not beam cannon based. And the missiles have a short range.

ArmySGT. wrote:Beams don't work in indirect fire. Rise above the horizon and you present a target to fire back at.

Yes and no. Seto is correct that RT does demonstrate what could be seen as curving beam weapons (unless TBTB decide to change them).

While people like to think of beam weapons as straight line only weapons, it is possible to curve them slightly (amount is related to diameter of the beam) in real-life outside of reflective/refractive surfaces. Not enough for practical indirect fire weapons, but since we are looking at Sci-fi we can allow them to exaggerate the effect a bit.

ShadowLogan wrote:Unfortunately it is hard to say. My impression is though that they are concerned, or the fleet is sufficiently high enough in orbit or dispersed enough to minimize the issue.

They're in pretty tight formation, as shown in the series... and they never seem to be all that fussed about fuel until after they're stranded on Earth and rebuilding a wrecked ship.

ShadowLogan wrote:Still would not require putting ships down on the surface to provide that indirect fire. You would still need a solid projectile (bullet, shell, missile, etc), but it could still be done. The projectile would need to be able to withstand re-entry.

Withstanding reentry is apparently no big deal in the Macross Saga era... remember, Rick makes reentry in a damaged Skull One with half its ventral surfaces missing in action and he only complains a little about the heat until he remembers that he really ought to put the canopy cover down. I suppose it wouldn't be hard for ships to use their anti-warship missiles for a indirect-fire bombardment of the surface. Or maybe for a fin-stabilized railgun round to be steered onto target.

ShadowLogan wrote:Yes and no. Seto is correct that RT does demonstrate what could be seen as curving beam weapons (unless TBTB decide to change them).

It's worth noting that many Zentradi ship classes are explicitly depicted as being equipped with high-angle guided beam gun systems in subsequent Macross titles, and there are a few scenes that could potentially be them in use in the original series (and thus, in RT). The Robotech Masters apparently do this for aesthetic funsies, with those double helix beams the point defense guns on their motherships fire.

Seto wrote: and they never seem to be all that fussed about fuel until after they're stranded on Earth and rebuilding a wrecked ship.

Given the amount of time to pass in/between engagements, I don't see why they would be. According to Vanessa they never moved between the Ep2 and Ep3 bombardments.