called strike call lightning

[Zamion138]

Call Lightning does not require a strike roll. And there is no dodge.

Can i choose to hit say head shot for the helmetless or just the hand of a robot? Or is it a main body/target strike only???

[Damian Magecraft]

GM call...
by the book it would be a main body strike.

[Zamion138]

Called shat have a minimum of 12 or better... Of course if the mage casting the spell is of high level - I would simply use a save vs. Magic to determine if it hits the head or body.... I need to review the spell before I can offer more... But generally, a save /dodge vs magic roll 14-16 is what I would use.

If they save via dodge would it then hit main body?? As generly there is no. Save from call lightning and no dodge?

[Nekira Sudacne]

It dosn't appear possible to target it in any way.

[say652]

if your willing to roll a strike to hit using bas roll plus spell power bonus then yes, if you want to use the spell save then NO.

[drewkitty ~..~]

GM call...
by the book it would be a main body strike.

Agrees.

[Goliath Strongarm]

if your willing to roll a strike to hit using bas roll plus spell power bonus then yes, if you want to use the spell save then NO.

The above would be a HOUSE rule, not a BOOK rule.

The answer of "GMs call" is 100% the right answer.

However, for RIFTs there is no listed save. In PF, there is- dodge- natural 20 or modified 24. (yet another example of differences between settings). I'm not sure about other settings.

Personally, if I was running, I'd tell the players no.

[Killer Cyborg]

Call Lightning does not require a strike roll. And there is no dodge.

Can i choose to hit say head shot for the helmetless or just the hand of a robot?

Nope.

Or is it a main body/target strike only???

Yup.

[Zamion138]

Ok seems reasonable just seeing other peoples take on it

[flatline]

Call Lightning does not require a strike roll. And there is no dodge.

No, there is no saving throw. People who have auto-dodge still get a dodge roll against it.

Since there is no roll to strike, what would you use as the target number for the auto-dodge roll?

If a dodge or auto-dodge were possible, Palladium's convention would be to mention that as the saving throw. Here are some examples:
Throwing Stones: "Saving Throw: Dodge"
Energy Bolt: "Saving Throw: Dodge of an 18 or higher"
Orb of Cold: "Saving Throw: Dodge; standard" and then the description explains that the saving throw only applies if the dodge fails.

Call Lightning and Sub-particle Acceleration are attack spells that do not allow saving throws and do not mention dodge as being applicable. The implication is that they can't be dodged.

--flatline

[Damian Magecraft]

Call Lightning does not require a strike roll. And there is no dodge.

No, there is no saving throw. People who have auto-dodge still get a dodge roll against it.

Since there is no roll to strike, what would you use as the target number for the auto-dodge roll?

In PF, there is- dodge- natural 20 or modified 24. (yet another example of differences between settings).

If a dodge or auto-dodge were possible, Palladium's convention would be to mention that as the saving throw. Here are some examples:
Throwing Stones: "Saving Throw: Dodge"
Energy Bolt: "Saving Throw: Dodge of an 18 or higher"
Orb of Cold: "Saving Throw: Dodge; standard" and then the description explains that the saving throw only applies if the dodge fails.

Call Lightning and Sub-particle Acceleration are attack spells that do not allow saving throws and do not mention dodge as being applicable. The implication is that they can't be dodged.

--flatline

I am inclined to go with PFs variant nat 20 or a modified 24 and using it as a precedent setter for similar spells (like SA) (but then I dont like potential instant kills).

[The Beast]

Call Lightning does not require a strike roll. And there is no dodge.

No, there is no saving throw. People who have auto-dodge still get a dodge roll against it.

No they don't. With extremely few exceptions, you have to be aware of an attack to dodge it, even if you have auto-dodge.

[Goliath Strongarm]

Call Lightning does not require a strike roll. And there is no dodge.

No, there is no saving throw. People who have auto-dodge still get a dodge roll against it.

No they don't. With extremely few exceptions, you have to be aware of an attack to dodge it, even if you have auto-dodge.

Agreed. In RIFTs, even auto dodge doesn't have a chance. No save is no save. It doesn't say "none except for autododge". It's NONE.

[Killer Cyborg]

Auto-Dodge just means that you get to dodge without spending an action on it, NOT that you get to dodge at times when dodging would impossible for other characters.
Similarly, you couldn't auto-parry Call Lightning or other spells, unless "Parry" is listed as a viable defense.

[Damian Magecraft]

Call Lightning does not require a strike roll. And there is no dodge.

No, there is no saving throw. People who have auto-dodge still get a dodge roll against it.

Since there is no roll to strike, what would you use as the target number for the auto-dodge roll?

If a dodge or auto-dodge were possible, Palladium's convention would be to mention that as the saving throw. Here are some examples:
Throwing Stones: "Saving Throw: Dodge"
Energy Bolt: "Saving Throw: Dodge of an 18 or higher"
Orb of Cold: "Saving Throw: Dodge; standard" and then the description explains that the saving throw only applies if the dodge fails.

Call Lightning and Sub-particle Acceleration are attack spells that do not allow saving throws and do not mention dodge as being applicable. The implication is that they can't be dodged.

--flatline

High level wizard get a +2 spell strength, that makes the roll auto 18 natural. That would be the roll to beat...

of course it depends on the game. You would have to dodge from outside to inside a building through a door or jump off a cliff or some such dramatic dodge in my mind. Minimum number would be 18... 16 is min for ritual with the +2 =18.

I'm not sure how they played the game out. This is the best reasonable answer for the rolls issue. Mind you most spells offer that spells get a save for 1/2 damage in my understanding of the rules..... That would likely take effect if it was a wizard duel of sorts.

Of course if the spell says it hits... no roll is needed, no dodge can be offered, but 18 is likely the target roll. - 10 as it would be = to lasers in speed... no bonus allowed on that roll.

I would look at this option depending on the way the game was played for that one situation.

Actually since the PF version offers a save of "dodge: natural 20 or modified 24" that would be the Target not 18.

[Goliath Strongarm]

Call Lightning does not require a strike roll. And there is no dodge.

No, there is no saving throw. People who have auto-dodge still get a dodge roll against it.

Since there is no roll to strike, what would you use as the target number for the auto-dodge roll?

If a dodge or auto-dodge were possible, Palladium's convention would be to mention that as the saving throw. Here are some examples:
Throwing Stones: "Saving Throw: Dodge"
Energy Bolt: "Saving Throw: Dodge of an 18 or higher"
Orb of Cold: "Saving Throw: Dodge; standard" and then the description explains that the saving throw only applies if the dodge fails.

Call Lightning and Sub-particle Acceleration are attack spells that do not allow saving throws and do not mention dodge as being applicable. The implication is that they can't be dodged.

--flatline

High level wizard get a +2 spell strength, that makes the roll auto 18 natural. That would be the roll to beat...

of course it depends on the game. You would have to dodge from outside to inside a building through a door or jump off a cliff or some such dramatic dodge in my mind. Minimum number would be 18... 16 is min for ritual with the +2 =18.

I'm not sure how they played the game out. This is the best reasonable answer for the rolls issue. Mind you most spells offer that spells get a save for 1/2 damage in my understanding of the rules..... That would likely take effect if it was a wizard duel of sorts.

Of course if the spell says it hits... no roll is needed, no dodge can be offered, but 18 is likely the target roll. - 10 as it would be = to lasers in speed... no bonus allowed on that roll.

I would look at this option depending on the way the game was played for that one situation.

RIFTs version: Saving throw: NONE. NONE as in NONE. So there is no target number. It doesn't matter if there's a bonus to spell strength, it doesn't matter on ANY of it- because there IS NO SAVE!!!!

Now, the PF version says a dodge of Nat 20, or modified dodge of 24. There, you can dodge. And there, in PF, the high level +2 could count, making the requirement be a modified dodge of 26.

But, in RIFTs, it doesn't matter. And the fact of auto-dodge would not matter. Because the character gets struck by lightning and takes the damage. End of story.

[Zamion138]

Call Lightning does not require a strike roll. And there is no dodge.

No, there is no saving throw. People who have auto-dodge still get a dodge roll against it.

Since there is no roll to strike, what would you use as the target number for the auto-dodge roll?

If a dodge or auto-dodge were possible, Palladium's convention would be to mention that as the saving throw. Here are some examples:
Throwing Stones: "Saving Throw: Dodge"
Energy Bolt: "Saving Throw: Dodge of an 18 or higher"
Orb of Cold: "Saving Throw: Dodge; standard" and then the description explains that the saving throw only applies if the dodge fails.

Call Lightning and Sub-particle Acceleration are attack spells that do not allow saving throws and do not mention dodge as being applicable. The implication is that they can't be dodged.

--flatline

High level wizard get a +2 spell strength, that makes the roll auto 18 natural. That would be the roll to beat...

of course it depends on the game. You would have to dodge from outside to inside a building through a door or jump off a cliff or some such dramatic dodge in my mind. Minimum number would be 18... 16 is min for ritual with the +2 =18.

I'm not sure how they played the game out. This is the best reasonable answer for the rolls issue. Mind you most spells offer that spells get a save for 1/2 damage in my understanding of the rules..... That would likely take effect if it was a wizard duel of sorts.

Of course if the spell says it hits... no roll is needed, no dodge can be offered, but 18 is likely the target roll. - 10 as it would be = to lasers in speed... no bonus allowed on that roll.

I would look at this option depending on the way the game was played for that one situation.

RIFTs version: Saving throw: NONE. NONE as in NONE. So there is no target number. It doesn't matter if there's a bonus to spell strength, it doesn't matter on ANY of it- because there IS NO SAVE!!!!

Now, the PF version says a dodge of Nat 20, or modified dodge of 24. There, you can dodge. And there, in PF, the high level +2 could count, making the requirement be a modified dodge of 26.

But, in RIFTs, it doesn't matter. And the fact of auto-dodge would not matter. Because the character gets struck by lightning and takes the damage. End of story.

Thats how we have always ran it.

[drewkitty ~..~]

As per Setting/Book/Edition, as written.
Can't be dodged: RMB, NSMB/NBMB, RBOM, RUE, PFRPG1(air only), HU1MB

Can be dodged with a nat 20 or mod 24: HU2MB, PFRPG2MB

Can be Dodged @ -12: RT1:Sentinels

Can be Dodged: BTS1

No CL spell: RT2 (all books), Recon adv., Recon2, ATB2, SF

No data: BTS2 (the magic books have not been published yet)

I Don't Know: TMNT (i don't have a complete set)

None of them require a strike roll, but there are Line of Sight-/Line of Vision-of the caster/Visible to the Caster limitations.
All "save vs magic" are "none". Some have the above dodge notes.
Spell Strength has no bearing on the CL spell because there is no saving throw vs magic for it.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Call Lightning does not require a strike roll. And there is no dodge.

No, there is no saving throw. People who have auto-dodge still get a dodge roll against it.

Since there is no roll to strike, what would you use as the target number for the auto-dodge roll?

If a dodge or auto-dodge were possible, Palladium's convention would be to mention that as the saving throw. Here are some examples:
Throwing Stones: "Saving Throw: Dodge"
Energy Bolt: "Saving Throw: Dodge of an 18 or higher"
Orb of Cold: "Saving Throw: Dodge; standard" and then the description explains that the saving throw only applies if the dodge fails.

Call Lightning and Sub-particle Acceleration are attack spells that do not allow saving throws and do not mention dodge as being applicable. The implication is that they can't be dodged.

--flatline

High level wizard get a +2 spell strength, that makes the roll auto 18 natural. That would be the roll to beat...

of course it depends on the game. You would have to dodge from outside to inside a building through a door or jump off a cliff or some such dramatic dodge in my mind. Minimum number would be 18... 16 is min for ritual with the +2 =18.

Where do you get that spell strength adds to dodge difficulty rolls?

[Damian Magecraft]

Call Lightning does not require a strike roll. And there is no dodge.

No, there is no saving throw. People who have auto-dodge still get a dodge roll against it.

Since there is no roll to strike, what would you use as the target number for the auto-dodge roll?

If a dodge or auto-dodge were possible, Palladium's convention would be to mention that as the saving throw. Here are some examples:
Throwing Stones: "Saving Throw: Dodge"
Energy Bolt: "Saving Throw: Dodge of an 18 or higher"
Orb of Cold: "Saving Throw: Dodge; standard" and then the description explains that the saving throw only applies if the dodge fails.

Call Lightning and Sub-particle Acceleration are attack spells that do not allow saving throws and do not mention dodge as being applicable. The implication is that they can't be dodged.

--flatline

High level wizard get a +2 spell strength, that makes the roll auto 18 natural. That would be the roll to beat...

of course it depends on the game. You would have to dodge from outside to inside a building through a door or jump off a cliff or some such dramatic dodge in my mind. Minimum number would be 18... 16 is min for ritual with the +2 =18.

Where do you get that spell strength adds to dodge difficulty rolls?

If one looks at the rules from a certain perspective it could be interpreted that way. (I doubt that it is RAI however) And it certainly is no more RAW than Gestures are required to cast any spell.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Since there is no roll to strike, what would you use as the target number for the auto-dodge roll?

If a dodge or auto-dodge were possible, Palladium's convention would be to mention that as the saving throw. Here are some examples:
Throwing Stones: "Saving Throw: Dodge"
Energy Bolt: "Saving Throw: Dodge of an 18 or higher"
Orb of Cold: "Saving Throw: Dodge; standard" and then the description explains that the saving throw only applies if the dodge fails.

Call Lightning and Sub-particle Acceleration are attack spells that do not allow saving throws and do not mention dodge as being applicable. The implication is that they can't be dodged.

--flatline

High level wizard get a +2 spell strength, that makes the roll auto 18 natural. That would be the roll to beat...

of course it depends on the game. You would have to dodge from outside to inside a building through a door or jump off a cliff or some such dramatic dodge in my mind. Minimum number would be 18... 16 is min for ritual with the +2 =18.

Where do you get that spell strength adds to dodge difficulty rolls?

If one looks at the rules from a certain perspective it could be interpreted that way. (I doubt that it is RAI however) And it certainly is no more RAW than Gestures are required to cast any spell.

And what perspective is that? i've never seen it argued before.

[Goliath Strongarm]

Since there is no roll to strike, what would you use as the target number for the auto-dodge roll?

If a dodge or auto-dodge were possible, Palladium's convention would be to mention that as the saving throw. Here are some examples:
Throwing Stones: "Saving Throw: Dodge"
Energy Bolt: "Saving Throw: Dodge of an 18 or higher"
Orb of Cold: "Saving Throw: Dodge; standard" and then the description explains that the saving throw only applies if the dodge fails.

Call Lightning and Sub-particle Acceleration are attack spells that do not allow saving throws and do not mention dodge as being applicable. The implication is that they can't be dodged.

--flatline

High level wizard get a +2 spell strength, that makes the roll auto 18 natural. That would be the roll to beat...

of course it depends on the game. You would have to dodge from outside to inside a building through a door or jump off a cliff or some such dramatic dodge in my mind. Minimum number would be 18... 16 is min for ritual with the +2 =18.

Where do you get that spell strength adds to dodge difficulty rolls?

If one looks at the rules from a certain perspective it could be interpreted that way. (I doubt that it is RAI however) And it certainly is no more RAW than Gestures are required to cast any spell.

And what perspective is that? i've never seen it argued before.

I've known 3 different GMs (plus myself, but, since I've picked up habits from those GMs....) that all see it that same way. Since I'm a predominately PF player, I have heavy experience in that category.

[Tor]

I'd only allow it by default if the enemy was wearing a metal helmet and had no other metal on him or something like that.

[Subjugator]

Call Lightning does not require a strike roll. And there is no dodge.

No, there is no saving throw. People who have auto-dodge still get a dodge roll against it.

No they don't. With extremely few exceptions, you have to be aware of an attack to dodge it, even if you have auto-dodge.

I'd not give a juicer a dodge against this, since there is no save, et al, however, it says juicers get a dodge even from behind or surprise.

Normally I'd give 'em one, but not on this.

/Sub

[Subjugator]

If one looks at the rules from a certain perspective it could be interpreted that way. (I doubt that it is RAI however) And it certainly is no more RAW than Gestures are required to cast any spell.

According to the RaW, gestures are usually required to cast a spell.

RUE, page 189, under verbalization it says gestures are usually required.

/Sub

[Damian Magecraft]

If one looks at the rules from a certain perspective it could be interpreted that way. (I doubt that it is RAI however) And it certainly is no more RAW than Gestures are required to cast any spell.

According to the RaW, gestures are usually required to cast a spell.

RUE, page 189, under verbalization it says gestures are usually required.

/Sub

no it does not say required... it says included. (big difference from being required). Specifically its says

Hand gestures are also usually part of the spell casting process that helps focus and direct the energy.

no where does it say they are required. and considering that in only one place in all the megaverse does it even imply they might be (in a section on optional rules for spiceing up magic in a single setting) the weight of the rules show they are not required.

[Subjugator]

Whoops. Mea culpa on phrasing.

HOWEVER, I'd at least say that if the mage THINKS they are required, then they are required. Belief is critical.

*shrug*

/Sub

[Zamion138]

Kinda off topic but does a relefection count as LOS? Ie if im looking in a periscope over a hill can i cast on what i see?
or like mage goggles from shadow run with the fiber optic to put into a crack or under a door that allows you to see the target?

[Damian Magecraft]

Kinda off topic but does a relefection count as LOS? Ie if im looking in a periscope over a hill can i cast on what i see?
or like mage goggles from shadow run with the fiber optic to put into a crack or under a door that allows you to see the target?

Thats a GMs call there...
Personally I would allow it so long as the target is within range of the spell.

[Damian Magecraft]

Whoops. Mea culpa on phrasing.

HOWEVER, I'd at least say that if the mage THINKS they are required, then they are required. Belief is critical.

*shrug*

/Sub

Agreed on the as long as the mage thinks its required its required.
but we cannot work (in a meta game discussion) under the assumption that it is a canon requirement.

[Subjugator]

Whoops. Mea culpa on phrasing.

HOWEVER, I'd at least say that if the mage THINKS they are required, then they are required. Belief is critical.

*shrug*

/Sub

Agreed on the as long as the mage thinks its required its required.
but we cannot work (in a meta game discussion) under the assumption that it is a canon requirement.

I was just noting that portion and not stating that it was canonical.

/Sub

[Damian Magecraft]

Whoops. Mea culpa on phrasing.

HOWEVER, I'd at least say that if the mage THINKS they are required, then they are required. Belief is critical.

*shrug*

/Sub

Agreed on the as long as the mage thinks its required its required.
but we cannot work (in a meta game discussion) under the assumption that it is a canon requirement.

I was just noting that portion and not stating that it was canonical.

/Sub

ok my mistake.

[Tor]

High level wizard get a +2 spell strength, that makes the roll auto 18 natural. That would be the roll to beat...

Spell strength is not a spell's strike roll, it only applies to savings throw rolls, which you usually don't get against physical or energy damage spells.

Now, the PF version says a dodge of Nat 20, or modified dodge of 24. There, you can dodge. And there, in PF, the high level +2 could count, making the requirement be a modified dodge of 26.

I don't see why spell strength boosters would increase the number you had to hit with a dodge roll, no precedent for that.

Can be Dodged @ -12: RT1:Sentinels

Robotech has magic?

I Don't Know: TMNT (i don't have a complete set)

Transdimensional Pg 43 has no savings throw, it's automatic.

[Damian Magecraft]

Can be Dodged @ -12: RT1:Sentinels

Robotech has magic?

Sentinels (1st edition RT not RT:SC)

[Goliath Strongarm]

Now, the PF version says a dodge of Nat 20, or modified dodge of 24. There, you can dodge. And there, in PF, the high level +2 could count, making the requirement be a modified dodge of 26.

I don't see why spell strength boosters would increase the number you had to hit with a dodge roll, no precedent for that.

There's no precedent either way. It would depend ENTIRELY on the GMs deciding if the dodge is a "save", which would be modified by the +2. Since no portion of the book clarifies in either direction. Hence my using the word COULD. It's open to interpretation.

Saving Throw: None; it always hits unless one's opponent rolls a natural 20 or a modified 24 or higher to dodge!

Your individual GM milage may vary. MOST GM's I've known (actually, I believe every GM I've gamed with, including myself, of course), has agreed that spell strength bonus SHOULD apply).

Now, as for your "no precedent" statement, what about Fire Ball?
Saving Throw: Dodge, but the victim must know the attack is coming and must roll an 18 or higher (bonuses to dodge are applicable).

There, it specifically states that the save is a dodge. Would your spell strength apply? If not, Why not? There IS a save, it just happens to be a dodge instead of the "normal" save. After all, a bonus to dodge applies, why shouldn't the difficulty to dodge it apply? If not the spell strength, how about a ranged attack bonus applying?

[Prysus]

There, it specifically states that the save is a dodge. Would your spell strength apply? There IS a save, it just happens to be a dodge instead of the "normal" save. After all, a bonus to dodge applies, why shouldn't the difficulty to dodge it apply? If not the spell strength, how about a ranged attack bonus applying?

Greetings and Salutations. Let me ask a different question: Would you allow the dodger to add their "Save vs. Magic" bonus to their dodge roll? Your argument is that it's still a save. I'm a believer that the sword needs to cut both ways if you're making such a ruling (and still trying to claim it's by the book).

Note: I actually have no problem with the concept as a house rule. I just think it is a house rule (at least by rules as intended, even if the rules as written aren't as clear).

If not, Why not?

To answer that question I'll respond by first repeating ...

Saving Throw: None; it always hits unless one's opponent rolls a natural 20 or a modified 24 or higher to dodge!

Now, as for your "no precedent" statement, what about Fire Ball?
Saving Throw: Dodge, but the victim must know the attack is coming and must roll an 18 or higher (bonuses to dodge are applicable).

First, I think we can agree that Palladium doesn't always clarify things, and they can be inconsistent with their wording. However, by looking at a larger picture, we can often gleam their intent.

In this case, we see two spells. Both mention "dodge" in their saving throw sections. One makes sure to clarify there's no saving throw. While we could reason that two ranged magical attacks work on entirely different magic systems, but I'd reason it's far more likely that they're intended to work the same and just worded differently (as Palladium is known to do). They seem to be placed there for simplicity (so they're easier to find) than as actual saving throws.

Let's also look at another spell, Fire Bolt. Saving throw is, once again, "Dodge." However, in this case we also see it mention it has a bonus to strike (not a bonus to the mage's Spell Strength, or any indication that Spell Strength is included, yet has the same "saving throw" as the others).

Or how about a different logic? The spell Magic Net (level four, and easily learned by a first level mage as a starting spell (Fire Ball and Call Lightning are not). It requires a 16 to dodge. Following said logic (of adding in Spell Strength), that actually means that Magic Net has a HIGHER spell strength than Rituals (which is supposed to have a "higher" saving throw than spell magic, unless you're like a level 15 Wizard).

Again, I'm not opposed to the rule, I just think it falls squarely into the realm of house rules (a pretty cool one though, I must admit). Anyways, that's all for now. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.

[Tor]

There's no precedent either way. It would depend ENTIRELY on the GMs

Rules always depend entirely on GMs to alter them, but the precedent in Palladium is to be a savings throw, something has to have 'save' in the description. Dodging is a defensive roll, not a savings throw. If a rune weapon gives me +1 to all savings throws, I don't get a dodge bonus. Savings throws are resisting rather than avoiding. Dodging is just sometimes noted in that section as a way of saying "no, you don't get a savings throw versus magic, but you can dodge the physical thing"

deciding if the dodge is a "save", which would be modified by the +2. Since no portion of the book clarifies in either direction. Hence my using the word COULD. It's open to interpretation.

No, it isn't, because spell strength is resisted by a save vs magic, not a dodge. A roll to beat via a dodge is not the same as spell strength. Your +2 can apply if someone is trying to use Negate Magic or something to block your call lightning, but not to make it harder to dodge. + to strength is not + to strike.

Saving Throw: None; it always hits unless one's opponent rolls a natural 20 or a modified 24 or higher to dodge!

You seem to have missed the 'none' part. Spell strength only applies if someone does get a savings throw versus a modifiable spell strength.

Your individual GM milage may vary. MOST GM's I've known (actually, I believe every GM I've gamed with, including myself, of course), has agreed that spell strength bonus SHOULD apply).

as for your "no precedent" statement, what about Fire Ball? Saving Throw: Dodge, but the victim must know the attack is coming and must roll an 18 or higher (bonuses to dodge are applicable).

This is obviously because spell templates have the copied 'savings' template to be filled. Whenever dodge appears, it's using a physical combat dice system and not a magical combat dice system. What you're doing is some clever play, but...

There are savings throws besides those versus magic, and spell strength bonuses only apply to the magical strength. Some spells require dodges, some require saves versus Horror Factor, others a savings throw versus insanity or psionics. The other forms of saving throw are not made harder by better spell strength, because these rolls are not against spell strength, they are against other factors.

There, it specifically states that the save is a dodge. Would your spell strength apply? If not, Why not? There IS a save, it just happens to be a dodge instead of the "normal" save. After all, a bonus to dodge applies, why shouldn't the difficulty to dodge it apply? If not the spell strength, how about a ranged attack bonus applying?

The dodge is not a savings throw versus spell strength, so the number to meet, not being the spell strength, would not apply.

Only if it explicitly said 'roll to dodge versus the caster's spell strength' would the SS apply to make it harder.

[Goliath Strongarm]

Dodging is a defensive roll, not a savings throw.

Savings throws are resisting rather than avoiding.

Look at those two statements, then look at the paragraph below. REALLY read it, then see my comments after it.

There are savings throws besides those versus magic, and spell strength bonuses only apply to the magical strength. Some spells require dodges, some require saves versus Horror Factor, others a savings throw versus insanity or psionics. The other forms of saving throw are not made harder by better spell strength, because these rolls are not against spell strength, they are against other factors.

So, what you're saying is, it's a saving throw, it's just not categorized as a saving throw, so it's not a saving throw. It meets ALL of the criteria for being one, except that it's a physical movement, so you don't think the mage should get the bonus. But it's still magically created. It's still PART OF THE SPELL. Which is the magic user's strength- his magical potentcy. Just because the save is a different style doesn't mean he's not just as strong as he normally is. He's STILL a strong spellcaster.

The spell Magic Net (level four, and easily learned by a first level mage as a starting spell (Fire Ball and Call Lightning are not). It requires a 16 to dodge. Following said logic (of adding in Spell Strength), that actually means that Magic Net has a HIGHER spell strength than Rituals (which is supposed to have a "higher" saving throw than spell magic, unless you're like a level 15 Wizard).

I see that argument. And I can concede to it, and I know the rule that rituals don't get spell strength, but I have to ask, why not? Isn't the spellcaster who does the ritual able to add his power into it? If he's 15th level, isn't he stronger than a 1st level doing the same ritual (theoretically possible)? So why is the save the same?

Below would be a newly thought of house rule discussion, yes (and something not thought of before)
And since Tor brought them up, and I actually hadn't thought about them (it's been a while since I've used them) spells like Fear or Thunderclap COULD (and IMO, should) be modified by a mages spell strength. And before you go off the deep end, a first level wizard has the SAME power and potency on it as a level 15 wizard? Fear at least has a duration affected by the level. But, there's a 10th level mercenary, and Bob the 1st level Wizard casts Thunderclap. He has the same chance at success as Tim the 15th level Wizard. Heck, even THOTH, if he used straight magic powers, and none of his godly might, would have the same chance.

Now, since that HF is magically created, do they get their bonus vs magic against it? Or their bonus vs HF? Whichever is higher? Both?

[Tor]

Goliath, basically, it being listed under (read: in place of) a savings throw may fuel the idea that SOME bonus to save could help you dodge.

But since it doesn't say "standard", you can't assume any savings throw rolls (except dodge) to add to it.

In no way is this linked to spell strength making savings throws harder.

The reason being: spell strength does not make ANY savings throw harder. It only makes saves vs spell strength harder.

Some spell effects don't involve saves versus spell strength, they involve saves versus other things. Saves versus spell EFFECTS generated by a spell, but not inherent magical strength.

[Prysus]

I see that argument. And I can concede to it, and I know the rule that rituals don't get spell strength, but I have to ask, why not? Isn't the spellcaster who does the ritual able to add his power into it? If he's 15th level, isn't he stronger than a 1st level doing the same ritual (theoretically possible)? So why is the save the same?

Greetings and Salutations. I actually have no clue on this one. I think it's just to avoid the ritual from becoming too powerful, but I don't really see the issue with it. As a house rule, I'd have NO problem allowing Spell Strength to add to Ritual Magic. Of course, I don't think I've ever seen a player character try to use a ritual before (though I also admit I have limited experience with magic, and probably one of my weakest subjects when it comes to Palladium). So it's probably more common with the evil Wizard who the group is trying to stop ... in which case we come back to Kevin probably trying not to kill the players and giving them a fighting chance.

Below would be a newly thought of house rule discussion, yes (and something not thought of before)
And since Tor brought them up, and I actually hadn't thought about them (it's been a while since I've used them) spells like Fear or Thunderclap COULD (and IMO, should) be modified by a mages spell strength.

No argument from me yet.

And before you go off the deep end, a first level wizard has the SAME power and potency on it as a level 15 wizard? Fear at least has a duration affected by the level. But, there's a 10th level mercenary, and Bob the 1st level Wizard casts Thunderclap. He has the same chance at success as Tim the 15th level Wizard. Heck, even THOTH, if he used straight magic powers, and none of his godly might, would have the same chance.

Oddly, this doesn't bother me. Thunderclap is a 1st level spell. It's not meant to be powerful. It's meant to be something simple and non-complicated that can be cast quickly.

The advantage to being a higher level mage is not making a Level 1 spell an instant win, but that they have a whole other arsenal of spells to choose from, and the higher we go the more level plays a factor in range, duration, and/or damage. I think a lot of the low level ones are MEANT to be fairly static. They're not to be underestimated, but not really meant to be super impressive either.

Now, since that HF is magically created, do they get their bonus vs magic against it? Or their bonus vs HF? Whichever is higher? Both?

That probably really depends on how the player came at me.

1: If we're playing simply as I believe the rules are intended, no spell strength to things such as Thunderclap. Those making a save roll with their bonus to HF only.

2: If the player tried to convince me that adding Spell Strength to all spells (such as Thunderclap) is the rules as written, I'd have everyone saving roll bonuses to HF and magic (combined). In my mind, if adding in Spell Strength to all spells (such as Thunderclap and Fire Ball) is "as written," then you'd have to add in save vs. magic to those rolls as well to keep it as written (Spell Strength even mentions it increases the number "to save"). The player would probably not be happy. At this point, I'd probably let the player back out and return to #1 if he wanted to, but I'd never agree to #3.

3: If the player came up with the idea (because until this thread I had never even considered that before) as a house rule, and though he may make the argument/case, he's willing to abide by whatever ruling I make? I'd probably tell him (initially) that I'll think about it. Weigh the pros and cons before next game. Eventually figure "What the heck!" and let him take it. He was reasonable, didn't try to treat me like a fool, and I don't see the house rule as game breaking. I'd let Spell Strength be added in, but NOT have victims add in their save vs. magic (so straight HF only).

Note: The book specifically mentions making a save vs. HF, so I can't see myself EVER agreeing to just save vs. magic. This is probably why I didn't pick it as an option nor "whichever is higher" (which means save vs. magic only is still an option), as those don't make sense (in my mind).

Anyways, hope that helps. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys for now.