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Hi Guys,

1. Is MDC abused too much?

Im finding out that it is when all my players want to make characters that are MDC, the more the better. So I've decided to turn everything into SDC. They can try to find the highest AR's next (they don't like AR's).

And the ones who are not MDC, they like to find the most durable armor and like to stay in it 24/7. I try to tell them they can't. It becomes uncomfortable after a time and the need for bathroom breaks and hygiene.

2. A side question. What do you do when robot pilots or power armor pilots lose their machines in battle? Do you give them another one afterward? It hasn't happened in my games, but other GM's have done that. They think they have unlimited resources to build them or find them and the players get them if they lose one.

Thanks guys.

It depends on what you define abuse as, really. I've played in games where everyone had an MDC character and this wasn't considered abuse because the GM expected it. I've also had games where playing MDC characters is forbidden. The GM sets the tone--weather or not the players are abusing any mechanic depends on the GM's tone for that particular game.

Note, if the GM expects MDC to be rare, and every player is struggling to get the highest MDC possible, then this sounds like a buy-in problem for your characters. You need to talk to them, and either:
A: Get them to accept less/no MDC characters
B: find out a reasonable compromise
C: Decide to give the players what they want and let everyone have MDC

None of those options are objectivly right. whatever everyone (you included) has the most fun with is the correction solution.

as for the power armor thing, it really REALLY depends on the kind of game they are playing.

As for the robots or power armor thing, it's really a matter of context. if it's a military or mercneary game where it's not really their robot but some large rich organizations, then they get issued a new one as a matter of course (or fired/discharged if they lost it through ineptness and incompetence). If they're independants, or work for smaller ones, then they're stuck without one until they get a new one. As GM, I will give them opportunities to buy/beg/steal/loot new robots, but i'm certainly not going to say it's handed to them (again, unless they work for the military, in which case it is because that's how militaries work)

I have not experienced an abuse of mdc; but then I exercise GM controls on race, class, gear, etc... availability (regardless of what some players may think this is a GMs prerogative and duty); so YMMV.
As to if a player loses his PA, EBA, What have you...
It all depends on why/how it was "lost."
If it was through me being my typical "sick, twisted, evil SOB of a GM" then yeah I will have "replacement" gear made available for the PCs.
If it is through them being careless and stupid (I make repair/weapons/armor shops available for a reason) then "maybe" I might take pity on the player and make available some new (new being a relative term) gear but it will be at a hefty cost (not always in credits).

magictiger wrote:Hi Guys,

1. Is MDC abused too much?

Yes.

Im finding out that it is when all my players want to make characters that are MDC, the more the better. So I've decided to turn everything into SDC. They can try to find the highest AR's next (they don't like AR's).

A lot of people have done that... but it can lead to other problems and issues.

And the ones who are not MDC, they like to find the most durable armor and like to stay in it 24/7. I try to tell them they can't. It becomes uncomfortable after a time and the need for bathroom breaks and hygiene.

Don't tell them that they can't. Impose combat/movement/skill penalties if they're in their armor for more than 24 hours, similar to the penalties that a Glitter Boy has. If they choose to stay in their armor all the time, let them.
The more important thing, rather than telling them, is showing them. Let them know that the environment is safe enough that it is sensible and reasonable for them to leave their armor from time to time. Have people give them odd looks when they're the only ones in the bar, or the only ones in town who are geared up for war.
Throw low-powered stuff at them, stuff like a bar fight or whatever. Stuff where war equipment is an inappropriate amount of overkill.

2. A side question. What do you do when robot pilots or power armor pilots lose their machines in battle? Do you give them another one afterward? It hasn't happened in my games, but other GM's have done that. They think they have unlimited resources to build them or find them and the players get them if they lose one.

Nope. If they lose it, they lose it. They don't get another one unless it happens naturally in the course of an adventure, and what they find may well not be as good as what they lost.

magictiger wrote:Hi Guys,

1. Is MDC abused too much?

I'm finding out that it is when all my players want to make characters that are MDC, the more the better. So I've decided to turn everything into SDC. They can try to find the highest AR's next (they don't like AR's).

It's all about comparative advantage. If MDC is perceived by your players as the most important stat in the game, then they will seek to have as much as possible.

I don't generally have a problem with characters that maximize MDC, strike/parry/dodge, PPE, ISP, or whatever. I find that when things go well, having the maximized stats wouldn't have mattered all that much and when things go badly, they go badly enough that having an extra 100MDC isn't enough to matter.

And the ones who are not MDC, they like to find the most durable armor and like to stay in it 24/7. I try to tell them they can't. It becomes uncomfortable after a time and the need for bathroom breaks and hygiene.

Again, players have to have some reason to choose their armor. Their decisions are probably going to be based on the MDC, the prowl penalty, or the artwork. In practice, it really doesn't impact the game if their starting armor has 60MDC vs 50MDC, so I wouldn't worry about it as the GM.

Hygiene is best handled through role playing rather than assigning penalties. Have the bartender ask them to leave because their stench is bothering the other customers. Charge them a cleaning fee when they have their armor serviced or repaired. Make the NPCs not want to be around them. Have them not get mercenary contracts because their contact didn't like them (drop hints as to why).

Nobody bats an eyelash at armor and weapons you're in the wild, but it might draw unwanted attention in more civilized area.

2. A side question. What do you do when robot pilots or power armor pilots lose their machines in battle? Do you give them another one afterward? It hasn't happened in my games, but other GM's have done that. They think they have unlimited resources to build them or find them and the players get them if they lose one.

If they lose their starting equipment, be it weapons, armor, power armor, or vehicles, then they need to find an in-game way to replace it. As a GM, I'll make sure that they have appropriate opportunity, but they still have to raise the cash, make the contacts, etc. If it's a wormwood campaign, it's going to be a whole lot harder to replace your SAMAS than if it's a CS campaign.

--flatline

re: pt1.
It can vary really to what the GM allows. The GM can say from the get go what class/races are available for the campaign. Don't forget that racial selection can impact where they can go, and enemies.

As for the EBA, other posters have covered it. Put the players in social sitiuations where the armor is a hinderence to participation in events. Or be evil, use attacks that by-pass the armor (Phase Weapons, but also impact damage pg356 RUE, or NPCs put them into holds/manacles to subdue them, while not in RUE CWC/NW have trap rules that can still hurt them even in armor, Canada has cold-weather effects to IIRC, Magic spells like "Life Drain", "Deathword", or "Giant" can by-pass body armor, etc).

re: pt2.
As others have said, it really depends on the organization they are part of or how it is done. Part of large organization which furnishes equipment is one thing, but if they are solo/small time or cut-off they may have to wait or use what is available from local sources/salvage.

magictiger wrote:
1. Is MDC abused too much? Im finding out that it is when all my players want to make characters that are MDC, the more the better. So I've decided to turn everything into SDC. They can try to find the highest AR's next (they don't like AR's).

MDC is not really 'abused' to much, it is just super prominent in the game now, to the point where when a new RCC is introduced it is almost a surprise if said creature is NOT an MDC being. In such a place, where there have got to be at least a half dozen ways for even HUMANS to be MDC creatures, it's not surprising that characters would want to play as MDC creatures, especially if they feel that they are at threat of instant death simply by not being MDC. Make sure the players feel (relatively) safe in the world when not being MDC, don't see every chance that they are out of armour as a a chance to 'get the drop on them'. We are daily in threat of being killed in our SDC world by the SDC dangers surrounding us, and yet we rarely feel the need to wear bulletproof vests or old style armour when we are out and about. Should we? Well, yeah. It's really easy to die, and regardless of how unlikely it is, it's fairly irreversible, and yet we still don't feel the need.

Converting the game into SDC works great, until you start putting SDC things back into the game, and see that there is really no reason to have a laser rifle over an assault rifle, especially when you consider the cost of both (and their ammo!). I suggest sticking to MDC, it's a clunky system, but the game was designed for it, and it's a heck of a lot of work to convert everything, which may not even work well when you are finished (though I do fully endorse the 1 MDC = 10 SDC scale).

magictiger wrote: And the ones who are not MDC, they like to find the most durable armor and like to stay in it 24/7. I try to tell them they can't. It becomes uncomfortable after a time and the need for bathroom breaks and hygiene.

In combat situations I would definately try and find the best protective armour I could possibly have, but make sure to introduce lots of situations where this is not the case. Travelling into controlled cities, where armour and weapons need to be locked in storage before entering, is a great way to get people used to just being out of the MDC environment in RIFTS, and having smaller, simpler villages unable to impose that kind of control on visitors/travellers be a source of constant fear for the people living in them/of the people travelling into them is a great way to really set the character of MDC and RIFTSs. As well, introducing a city/area where MDC gear is NOT confiscated does a great job at showing the insanity and lawlessness that is created, as everyone inside said area DOES have a legitimate reason to fear for their lives.

Other great areas to have characters journey through are the Malls of cities. Often if a character is not a resident of the city, this is as far as they go, and a place that provides everything a traveller/adventurer will need, but still a pla(ce where MDC is removed from the equation. It also might be as far as a city is willing to allow certain groups, like Psi-Stalkers, D-Bees, or anyone MDC/Supernatural to go. MDC D-Bees shouldn't be punished (or rather, their PC's shouldn't be) just for choosing that RCC, but the counter that being what they are does make life more difficult should be apparant, it's one of the things that makes a place like Lazlo so different (or at least should).

magictiger wrote: 2. A side question. What do you do when robot pilots or power armor pilots lose their machines in battle? Do you give them another one afterward? It hasn't happened in my games, but other GM's have done that. They think they have unlimited resources to build them or find them and the players get them if they lose one.

Well, that depends. If it is 'taken away' by the GM in some way that the character had no chance, like 'you wake up, and your Samas is gone!', then they will either have a chance to get it, or something else back later, 'those bandits you saw last night must have taken it, after them!' On the other hand, if it's legitimately lost in battle, then it's just destroyed, and you are on your own to get a new one. That being said, characters should normally have a way to retreat/escape, otherwise most Power Armours/Robots will be dead in under a minute (against comparable foes), especially 'older style' ones/non-CS equivalents.

Anytime a Power Armour/Robot is destroyed, much the same as when body armour is destroyed, their should be legitimate fear from the PC that they will die from the same hit/effect. Fighting to the 'death' of your SAMAS is most of the time going to be your death as well. The time this is different is with Robot Vehichles, which often have a reinforced crew compartment and pilots who sometimes (though not always) wear armour inside. (Note that this is not considering any rules that let the last 10 MDC of your armour absorb 12 MDC of damge, thus magically protecting characters from harm, but if you use the above 1:10 ratio, the character may well survive)


Also, a point on EBA/Environmental Body Armour. EBA SHOULD be comfortable, or at least not brutally unfomfortable. You are in an enclosed suit with it's own temperature control! It's not really comfortable to be sitting in a your car in a traffic jam, but with a sun-roof (helmet) radio and Air Conditioning it might be a lot nicer than just standing/walking down the side of the road, especially if it even goes so far as to filter the air around you! Plus, armour in RIFTS is incredibly light. And manueverable. The main downsides that come with wearing it come from interaction with others, the fear of being a 'walking tank' and just wandering into a wilderness village and declaring yourself king, or the knowledge that the guy who won't take off his military hardware is probably unhinged and extremely dangerous.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

magictiger wrote:Hi Guys,

1. Is MDC abused too much?

Yes.

How do you figure?

Abused? Not at all.
(as I drive my MDC tea cup through the skull of the barbarian next to me in the diner, after parrying his knife strike with it)

MDC abuse...not possible.

RIFTS is basically a high powered, techno-power fantasy game...it doesn't do subtlety well.

Every book is full of new MDC goodies, nearly every offensive spell does MDC damage and most enemies are of the MDC variety. I find it very hard to scale RIFts down to SDC. It'd be suicidal for a character to now walk into danger without MDC protection. Just the nature of the MDC beast.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

magictiger wrote:Hi Guys,

1. Is MDC abused too much?

Yes.

How do you figure?

The rest of his post covers things pretty well

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

magictiger wrote:Hi Guys,

1. Is MDC abused too much?

Yes.

How do you figure?

The rest of his post covers things pretty well

One group where everyone tries to either play an MDC race or live in MDC armor 24/7 is an ancedote, and does not indicate any widespread pattern of behavior.

I was wondering if you had more examples to show, or other evidence to support the idea it's abused commonly.

I think we would have to come up with an exact definition of abused, and by who. Whether or not it is 'overused' by writers, or 'over-scaled/over abundant' in certain books or by certain authors, or whether the concept is 'abused' by players to do things the game wasn't set up for (shooting the ground underneath opponents is always a fun conversation), or whether or not a players actions are even inappropriate to the character of the game. Of course, to answere these questions you'd need to have a firmly established idea of what RIFTS is as a game, and what type of character it is supposed to have, which is not going to happen.

Eashamahel wrote:I think we would have to come up with an exact definition of abused, and by who. Whether or not it is 'overused' by writers, or 'over-scaled/over abundant' in certain books or by certain authors, or whether the concept is 'abused' by players to do things the game wasn't set up for (shooting the ground underneath opponents is always a fun conversation), or whether or not a players actions are even inappropriate to the character of the game. Of course, to answere these questions you'd need to have a firmly established idea of what RIFTS is as a game, and what type of character it is supposed to have, which is not going to happen.

You state an interesting point. Shooting at "soft" objects to affect MDC opponents. It's often been said (and written in the books) that a person in MDC EBA armed with a laser rifle is roughly equivalent in firepower and armor to an M1 tank. Now, take that guy and give him bad aim/wild shooting. He obliterates the surrounding countryside, setting forests on fire, causing massive rockslides and generally attracting the attention of everyone for miles.

The only abuse happening here, however, is if the GM forgets all of this. When the environment becomes a cataclysmic firestorm because of MDC energy weapons, suddenly no one is hitting anything anymore because there's too much fire, heat and smoke to see all that well.

Now, that being said, I think meta is what ruins games. As soon as you start coming up with in-game excuses to meta-play, you've basicaly screwed the pooch.

Its not abuse if when you roll up on a small village and all the guards are wearing plastic man or better. Its not abuse if, in the last 4 game sessions with the pc's they havent run into a single sdc foe.
You have to scale it, if you want it to be rare then its a double edge sword, the pcs shouldnt have it but not every baddy in a small backwater town should either. You also need to make it scary to see 5 cs on patrol in mdc armor. Like it would be for you to look out your window and see 3 light tanks driving down the street.

As for pilots missing armor. Make it available but you dont have to make it easy to get. But just like gm's who make learning a new spell like pulling teath....its their stchik gotta make it at least plausible they will once again armor up.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

magictiger wrote:Hi Guys,

1. Is MDC abused too much?

Yes.

How do you figure?

The rest of his post covers things pretty well

One group where everyone tries to either play an MDC race or live in MDC armor 24/7 is an ancedote, and does not indicate any widespread pattern of behavior.

Since you're new to the boards, I'll just let you know: his experience is pretty common, almost typical.

Your question is a bit off, something that is abused is pretty much by definition used too much. Better wording might have been 'is MDC used too much?'.

In any case it's not being abused really when the players set out to make characters it's to be expected that they will in general actually want to be able to survive in the game and have a chance to prosper, can't generally do that if you can be one-hit killed like in some survival horror video game (although some love that kind of challenge). On average since you can't just 'restore to last save' in an RPG players will then try and give their characters what they feel is a reasonable chance of survival, and in a setting like Rifts that's based on ability to handle damage so they're going to want as much MDC as is reasonable to be able to survive.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:How do you figure?

The rest of his post covers things pretty well

One group where everyone tries to either play an MDC race or live in MDC armor 24/7 is an ancedote, and does not indicate any widespread pattern of behavior.

Since you're new to the boards, I'll just let you know: his experience is pretty common, almost typical.

is it? Sure we have a few complaints about it every year, but it hardly represents a majority. Just because the cases where it does happen have someone complaining about it, hardly means that it happens frequently. Funny enough, the people who don't run into problems with MDC don't talk about "yep, that MDC mechanic sure works just fine". Hence, you'll have a half dozen topics each complaining about players living in their armor 24/7 (usually less...I think I remember a half dozen total posts to that effect), and hundreds of posters over the years who've never beleived a word about it.

That leads me to beleive that players living in their armor is very much the exception and not the rule. It's just that the few times it DOES happen leads those who suffer it to complain, find others who have similar complaints, leading to the erronus conclusion that it happens to a majority of rifts players.

I think the desire to play a race with natural MDC or wear armor 24/7 comes at least in part from playing with GM's that delight in catching a player with their pants down. It's a common trait with some of the GM's I've played with and has certainly driven my character design process. Especially since it can take an extended amount of time to make a new Palladium character.

Also, let's not mistake people coming to the forums to complain about MDC as representing the majority of Rifts players/GM's. If you're fully satisfied with the way MDC works you aren't motivated to go on the internet to chime in. It could just be a vocal minority effect, making it look like everyone hates MDC.

Overall, I think/from my experience it is more common amongst newer players.

Basically no one I play with ever plays as an MDC creature, with the possible exception of a cyborg or tatooed man, no one is just using a 'human equivalent' MDC being or random MDC D-Bee, we've all been doing it long enough to enjoy the game with 'classic' races/classes, and we don't expect every time out of armour to end up being 'THAT CHANCE' the GM takes to screw you. Plus we try and play to the original character of RIFTS, Long's old art of single person with a walking stick and a laser rifle hiking through the woods, the old pcitures of people in heavily worn and scavenged clothes in frontier towns with wooden saloons beside ancient MDC bunkers, ect,

Newer players, though (I think rightly) take a quick flip through the books (or even a few months/years playing them) and decide that the single most defining factor of RIFTS is MDC. All you really need to consider is book design, where MDC is given prominence, and SDC is effectively ignored. With this as the design choice of the writers, what are players supposed to think?

As to how MDC is supposed to devastate the environment, it certainly is! I believe it is Triax & the NGR where Erin Tarn and crew come upon a battle scene that is just a huge swath of forest that has been destroyed/on fire, and that's important to keep in the players minds. Problems arise when characters, either to be clever or because they are just playing around/gaming the system, start doing ridiculous things just because they can..


Lastly, for Rappanui, MDC can't be abused for Wormwood, it's the ONLY mechanic of that setting (although you can of course introduce SDC/HP), that's like saying HP is abused in other games. Still, Wormwood, although awesome, is probably the LAST choice I would make if I was looking to show the point that some design aspect of Palladium's rules did indeed work properly. As awesome as it is, it's about the clunkiest, most hole riddled system ever, and that's specifically because the writer(s) pushed the MDC mechanic on everything.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:I'll just let you know: his experience is pretty common, almost typical.

is it? Sure we have a few complaints about it every year, but it hardly represents a majority.

You kind of jumped from "pretty common, almost typical" to "The Majority."
Not sure how or why you did that.

Just because the cases where it does happen have someone complaining about it, hardly means that it happens frequently.

It's something that is regularly complained about directly and indirectly.
That indicates that it's pretty common.

Funny enough, the people who don't run into problems with MDC don't talk about "yep, that MDC mechanic sure works just fine".

A lot of the people who "don't run into problems with MDC" are actually people who DO run into problems with MDC, but don't realize it.
Instead, they think that they're people who run into problems with SDC, and start threads asking how SDC creatures can even survive on Rifts Earth, or claiming that there's no use for SDC classes/animals/monsters/weapons, etc.

Just because people have a problem does not mean that they recognize it.

Hence, you'll have a half dozen topics each complaining about players living in their armor 24/7 (usually less...I think I remember a half dozen total posts to that effect), and hundreds of posters over the years who've never beleived a word about it.

That leads me to beleive that players living in their armor is very much the exception and not the rule. It's just that the few times it DOES happen leads those who suffer it to complain, find others who have similar complaints, leading to the erronus conclusion that it happens to a majority of rifts players.

Not the first time you've been wrong.

Galroth wrote:I think the desire to play a race with natural MDC or wear armor 24/7 comes at least in part from playing with GM's that delight in catching a player with their pants down. It's a common trait with some of the GM's I've played with and has certainly driven my character design process. Especially since it can take an extended amount of time to make a new Palladium character.

Yup.
It's generally a problem that people run into fairly early in their Rifts experience. Then they resolve it either by learning new skills and techniques to handle the system, or by embracing the over-representation of mega-damage and mostly ignoring SDC.

Also, let's not mistake people coming to the forums to complain about MDC as representing the majority of Rifts players/GM's. If you're fully satisfied with the way MDC works you aren't motivated to go on the internet to chime in. It could just be a vocal minority effect, making it look like everyone hates MDC.

It doesn't look like everybody hates MDC.
But I think that it's pretty far off-base to equate "hating MDC" with "Running into problems with MDC abuse."
I love Mega-Damage, for example, yet I have frequently run into issues with abuse of Mega-Damage, and hold it up as one of (if not THE) biggest problems with the game of Rifts.

Eashamahel wrote:Newer players, though (I think rightly) take a quick flip through the books (or even a few months/years playing them) and decide that the single most defining factor of RIFTS is MDC. All you really need to consider is book design, where MDC is given prominence, and SDC is effectively ignored. With this as the design choice of the writers, what are players supposed to think?

Yes.
And not only that, but new players often want to play a character concept that virtually mandates mega-damage, because MD is so prolific in every class and race.

Or they want to play a kind of character whose concept really should be modified for the world of Rifts, but refuses to modify things beyond boosting the firepower.
Like "super hero" who the player thinks MUST run around in tights instead of wearing armor, and therefore MUST be mega-damage.

I'm a big proponent of cool factor when it comes to character design, but even I realize you need to wear a helmet in the rifts. folks who don't get with the program have it coming.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:I'll just let you know: his experience is pretty common, almost typical.

is it? Sure we have a few complaints about it every year, but it hardly represents a majority.

You kind of jumped from "pretty common, almost typical" to "The Majority."
Not sure how or why you did that.

Because Pretty common, almost typical" and "the majority" seem to denote roughly the same number of people.

If not, then I have no idea what "pretty common, almost typical" means.

30%?
40%?

and if that low, how can you discribe it as "almost typical?" Almost typical certainly seems to indicate that it's true more often than not, and if that's not "the majority" then I don't know what it means.

Just because the cases where it does happen have someone complaining about it, hardly means that it happens frequently.

It's something that is regularly complained about directly and indirectly.
That indicates that it's pretty common.

I don't consider once every two months or so regular. to me, reguarly would be every week or so. Common would require around 60-70% of all games to have this problem, which I don't see complaints with anywhere near that regularlity.

And again, if a majority does not require something to be "common", then I ask what you DO think common means.

Funny enough, the people who don't run into problems with MDC don't talk about "yep, that MDC mechanic sure works just fine".

A lot of the people who "don't run into problems with MDC" are actually people who DO run into problems with MDC, but don't realize it.
Instead, they think that they're people who run into problems with SDC, and start threads asking how SDC creatures can even survive on Rifts Earth, or claiming that there's no use for SDC classes/animals/monsters/weapons, etc.

I've seen even fewer threads on that than I do complaining about MDC.

Even togeather, I don't think either extreme represents the majority of Rifts game experiances. They're just that--the extreme ends.

Just because people have a problem does not mean that they recognize it.

This is true.

Unfortunately for us, half-remembered Rifts threads going back the 7-10 years we've been posting here likely don't represent a reliable data set to draw conclusions by.

Not the first time you've been wrong.

Nor is this the first time you've been wrong

Alrik Vas wrote:I'm a big proponent of cool factor when it comes to character design, but even I realize you need to wear a helmet in the rifts. folks who don't get with the program have it coming.

But that is often not reinforced in the books. Perez is a great artist, but consider how many pictures he has of people straight up fighting the CS army in tank tops and khaki pants? The Burster got a re-do and has a Mega-Damage forcefield made of fire. It's so burny that it stops lasers! Why? Probably because that's the image they wanted to go with, said Burster is often shown to be battling with no armour.

People, especially new players, who pick up the game and EXPECT to be able to do everything they want with no armour on are only at fault of doing what they have been shown, and it's very reasonable for them to be upset if it doesn't work out the way they expect it should.

Alrik Vas wrote:I'm a big proponent of cool factor when it comes to character design, but even I realize you need to wear a helmet in the rifts. folks who don't get with the program have it coming.

Well, that depends on the adventure/campaign.
I've played in adventures where we didn't need MDC armor at all, and I've played in adventures where we've gotten by with MDC vests, and I've played in adventures where we need to be covered from head to toe.

I agree that there are situations where MDC armor, nor even megadamage weaopns are necessary, but when you're going into battle, you don't leave your kit at home.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:I'll just let you know: his experience is pretty common, almost typical.

is it? Sure we have a few complaints about it every year, but it hardly represents a majority.

You kind of jumped from "pretty common, almost typical" to "The Majority."
Not sure how or why you did that.

Because Pretty common, almost typical" and "the majority" seem to denote roughly the same number of people.

If not, then I have no idea what "pretty common, almost typical" means.

30%?
40%?

and if that low, how can you discribe it as "almost typical?" Almost typical certainly seems to indicate that it's true more often than not, and if that's not "the majority" then I don't know what it means.

Actually, "common" would often mean that it's true more often than other options, not that it's true more often than other options combined
Also, commonness has to do with regularity, not necessarily overall percentages.

Say you're looking at a person's typical dinner diet.
On Mondays, they have pizza for dinner.
On Tuesdays, they have steak for dinner.
On Wednesday, they have pizza for dinner.
On Thursday, they have tacos for dinner.
On Friday, they have pizza for dinner.
On Saturday, they have Chinese food for dinner.
On Sunday, they have soup for dinner.

On three out of seven occasions, they have pizza, making it the most common meal for the person in question, event though they have pizza less than 50% of the time.
If instead they had sandwiches for dinner on Mondays, pizza would still be the most common meal for the person in question.
If instead they had steak for dinner on Mondays, pizza would be tied for the most common meal for the person in question, in which case it would STILL be common.
For that matter, using the meal plans as laid out originally, ALL of these foods would be common, because each of them is eaten with regularity. Eating steak once a weak means that you only eat it 1/7th of the time... but it also means that you eat it regularly enough for it to be a very common meal for you.

Likewise, in the above case, any one of the above meals would be able to be said to constitute a "typical" meal for the person in question, because they eat each of those foods with overall regularity.

There are no hard and fast percentages attached to the terms "typical" or "common."

I don't consider once every two months or so regular. to me, reguarly would be every week or so.

This is probably the root of the problem- you don't understand the usage of the word "regular."
Most children and adults should see their dentist for a regular cleaning and check up every six months, according to dentists and other sources.
Regular pap smears are supposed to occur every two years.
Regular eye exams occur once per year.
And so forth.

And again, if a majority does not require something to be "common", then I ask what you DO think common means.

Occurring, found, or done often.

Often, before you ask, means "Frequently; many times."

Neither necessarily means "in the majority of cases," although there often is overlap.

Funny enough, the people who don't run into problems with MDC don't talk about "yep, that MDC mechanic sure works just fine".

A lot of the people who "don't run into problems with MDC" are actually people who DO run into problems with MDC, but don't realize it.
Instead, they think that they're people who run into problems with SDC, and start threads asking how SDC creatures can even survive on Rifts Earth, or claiming that there's no use for SDC classes/animals/monsters/weapons, etc.

I've seen even fewer threads on that than I do complaining about MDC. [/quote]

Since both are symptoms of the same thing, you could be combining the totals, not comparing them.

Even togeather, I don't think either extreme represents the majority of Rifts game experiances. They're just that--the extreme ends.

It seems like you think that something is either the Majority, or an "extreme end."

Alrik Vas wrote:I agree that there are situations where MDC armor, nor even megadamage weaopns are necessary, but when you're going into battle, you don't leave your kit at home.

I suppose that depends on the battle, what's in your kit, and other specifics.
But yes, it's a good enough general rule.

I dont see it as abuse, you have to as a gm put forth what the setting is.
Mdc armor is all but assigned to every char even the vagabond. Why as a player or human would you not the most protection and offense you could practicly carry. If you could start with plastic man or gladiator? If i can have an sdc pistol or an mdc pistol, why choose the sdc pistol. If you want a low mdc game you need to push that idea to the players well in aadvance.
Yeah i know there are some great reasons to have SD weapons and armor but if im. Ot told ahead of time mdc oppents are not ultra rare im not going to activly limt myself to a weaker weapon/armor.

You as the gm need to say before i choose my WP's and gear, hey you cant start with ".......yadda"

Alrik Vas wrote:I agree that there are situations where MDC armor, nor even megadamage weaopns are necessary, but when you're going into battle, you don't leave your kit at home.

SDC campaigns in Rifts are totally possible as long as nobody has easy access to MDC. Once someone has easy access to MDC protection, it's very difficult to establish a threat without that threat being capable of MD. Once the escalation begins, it doesn't stop until everyone (who survives) has MDC protection and is capable of MD attacks.

So what kinds of parties does an SDC campaign in Rifts work for?
Scholars, adventurers, juicers, crazies, and tech characters who aren't being actively supplied by some organization.

Unless MD/MDC powers/abilities/spells are strictly forbidden, this means:
No spell casters
No master psychics
No super powers
No borgs

This works fine for theme campaigns, but if you are actively avoiding 90% of the canon material, are you really playing Rifts at this point?

--flatline

flatline wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:I agree that there are situations where MDC armor, nor even megadamage weaopns are necessary, but when you're going into battle, you don't leave your kit at home.

SDC campaigns in Rifts are totally possible as long as nobody has easy access to MDC. Once someone has easy access to MDC protection, it's very difficult to establish a threat without that threat being capable of MD. Once the escalation begins, it doesn't stop until everyone (who survives) has MDC protection and is capable of MD attacks.

So what kinds of parties does an SDC campaign in Rifts work for?
Scholars, adventurers, juicers, crazies, and tech characters who aren't being actively supplied by some organization.

Unless MD/MDC powers/abilities/spells are strictly forbidden, this means:
No spell casters
No master psychics
No super powers
No borgs

This works fine for theme campaigns, but if you are actively avoiding 90% of the canon material, are you really playing Rifts at this point?

--flatline

Totaly i played ina pbp game where we all started with like light mdc vests ( ar 12 mdc 10)two of the pc's had built in md attacks though, so it escalted ultra fast. To make it a challenge goons needed md weapos. And armor. The two were a caster and a mind melter. We the non psi non casters were hiding behind walls spraying our smg's and battle rifles blindly while those two threw lightning and mind bolts about.

flatline wrote:Once someone has easy access to MDC protection, it's very difficult to establish a threat without that threat being capable of MD.

I disagree.
There are plenty of non-MD threats that a person can toss against a character in MDC armor.
Especially if it's non-environmental.

Zamion138 wrote:To make it a challenge goons needed md weapos. And armor.

Why's that?
Magic Net wouldn't have worked on them?
Or any number of other non-damage spells/psionics/powers?

magictiger wrote:Hi Guys,

1. Is MDC abused too much?

Im finding out that it is when all my players want to make characters that are MDC, the more the better. So I've decided to turn everything into SDC. They can try to find the highest AR's next (they don't like AR's).

And the ones who are not MDC, they like to find the most durable armor and like to stay in it 24/7. I try to tell them they can't. It becomes uncomfortable after a time and the need for bathroom breaks and hygiene.

2. A side question. What do you do when robot pilots or power armor pilots lose their machines in battle? Do you give them another one afterward? It hasn't happened in my games, but other GM's have done that. They think they have unlimited resources to build them or find them and the players get them if they lose one.

Thanks guys.

1. Abused? No,mishandled by everyone and mostly by various authors, PB employs.
2. I give them a chance to spend that money they make.

MDC used to work, back in the days it first appeared, in the first generation Robotech RPG.

Back then it was pretty simple, to be MDC you had to be a giant warmachine or literally a giant.

Things started to fall apart as personal MDC began to appear in the later Robotech books and Rifts. Once MDC moved to personal body armour, personal weapons and even personal structure then there became little or no point to playing SDC unless the GM forced it to happen.

Jefffar wrote:MDC used to work, back in the days it first appeared, in the first generation Robotech RPG.

Back then it was pretty simple, to be MDC you had to be a giant warmachine or literally a giant.

Things started to fall apart as personal MDC began to appear in the later Robotech books and Rifts. Once MDC moved to personal body armour, personal weapons and even personal structure then there became little or no point to playing SDC unless the GM forced it to happen.

Exactly. Once the sense of scale became blurred, it stopped being elegant.

--flatline

flatline wrote:

Jefffar wrote:MDC used to work, back in the days it first appeared, in the first generation Robotech RPG.

Back then it was pretty simple, to be MDC you had to be a giant warmachine or literally a giant.

Things started to fall apart as personal MDC began to appear in the later Robotech books and Rifts. Once MDC moved to personal body armour, personal weapons and even personal structure then there became little or no point to playing SDC unless the GM forced it to happen.

Exactly. Once the sense of scale became blurred, it stopped being elegant.

--flatline

Even then, it was fine when the power level was low.
The SMGs and assault rifles that fired conventional rounds, but had low MD grenade launchers, for example, were fine.
Even the energy rifles that did 1d6 MD or so had their place.

And I had no problem with mega-damage as it worked into the original Rifts book. There was plenty of room for SDC, and there was plenty of room for mega-damage, simply because it's not actually a great idea to always use insanely lethal overkill against all enemies or in all environments.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Zamion138 wrote:To make it a challenge goons needed md weapos. And armor.

Why's that?
Magic Net wouldn't have worked on them?
Or any number of other non-damage spells/psionics/powers?

Of course it would have. But they hard spells/psi that was ranged md. The gm didnt pull the powers, before that we had a mounted .50bmg with ramjets as our only md weapon system.
So as i was saying since the gm refused to ban the md attacks of thoose two all the goons had to be upgraded.

Zamion138 wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Zamion138 wrote:To make it a challenge goons needed md weapos. And armor.

Why's that?
Magic Net wouldn't have worked on them?
Or any number of other non-damage spells/psionics/powers?

Of course it would have. But they hard spells/psi that was ranged md. The gm didnt pull the powers, before that we had a mounted .50bmg with ramjets as our only md weapon system.
So as i was saying since the gm refused to ban the md attacks of thoose two all the goons had to be upgraded.

Sounds like the GM could have done things a bit better.

Zamion138 wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Zamion138 wrote:To make it a challenge goons needed md weapos. And armor.

Why's that?
Magic Net wouldn't have worked on them?
Or any number of other non-damage spells/psionics/powers?

Of course it would have. But they hard spells/psi that was ranged md. The gm didnt pull the powers, before that we had a mounted .50bmg with ramjets as our only md weapon system.
So as i was saying since the gm refused to ban the md attacks of thoose two all the goons had to be upgraded.

In an SDC campaign, it doesn't matter if it's Throwing Stones vs Sub-Particle Acceleration. The step up from normal attacks to MD attacks is so tremendous, that even 1d6MD attacks become totally dominating.

This is why most campaigns become totally MD unless the GM takes steps to prevent the escalation. Personally, I don't think it's worth the trouble. Either house-rule away MD entirely, or just let everyone in the campaign go MD and scale the threats accordingly.

--flatline

flatline wrote:

Zamion138 wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Zamion138 wrote:To make it a challenge goons needed md weapos. And armor.

Why's that?
Magic Net wouldn't have worked on them?
Or any number of other non-damage spells/psionics/powers?

Of course it would have. But they hard spells/psi that was ranged md. The gm didnt pull the powers, before that we had a mounted .50bmg with ramjets as our only md weapon system.
So as i was saying since the gm refused to ban the md attacks of thoose two all the goons had to be upgraded.

In an SDC campaign, it doesn't matter if it's Throwing Stones vs Sub-Particle Acceleration. The step up from normal attacks to MD attacks is so tremendous, that even 1d6MD attacks become totally dominating.

This is why most campaigns become totally MD unless the GM takes steps to prevent the escalation. Personally, I don't think it's worth the trouble. Either house-rule away MD entirely, or just let everyone in the campaign go MD and scale the threats accordingly.

--flatline

There are ways to avoid getting killed by 1d6 MD, and a lot fewer ways to avoid getting killed by 1d6x10 MD.
But I get where you're coming from, for the most part.

Zamion138 wrote:The two were a caster and a mind melter. We the non psi non casters were hiding behind walls spraying our smg's and battle rifles blindly while those two threw lightning and mind bolts about.

MD Mind Bolts chew up ISP very fast, even for a Mind Melter don't they? I mean 40 ISP for 2d4 can go very fast. Even assuming max roll on ME and ISP that's still about 200 (more if the MM is above Level 1) for maybe 5-shots at Level 1 (likely less). Now there are ways to beef up ISP (Psi-cola, Ley Lines, implants, etc), but the MM should have only had capacity for a few shots unless he/she switched to the lighter SDC or you have some house rules in play.

ShadowLogan wrote:

Zamion138 wrote:The two were a caster and a mind melter. We the non psi non casters were hiding behind walls spraying our smg's and battle rifles blindly while those two threw lightning and mind bolts about.

MD Mind Bolts chew up ISP very fast, even for a Mind Melter don't they? I mean 40 ISP for 2d4 can go very fast. Even assuming max roll on ME and ISP that's still about 200 (more if the MM is above Level 1) for maybe 5-shots at Level 1 (likely less). Now there are ways to beef up ISP (Psi-cola, Ley Lines, implants, etc), but the MM should have only had capacity for a few shots unless he/she switched to the lighter SDC or you have some house rules in play.

Yeah, 5 near instata kills so instead of facing say 10 enemies the gm would have to put in 15. All im saying is if your trying make it ultra rare mdc or low mdc game with mostly sdc weapons, you can have 2 of, i think it was a 5 man game, basicly firing 5 tank rounds a game when everyone else is shooting. 556 and 9mm.
Not to metion the mage with us.

Zamion138 wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote:

Zamion138 wrote:The two were a caster and a mind melter. We the non psi non casters were hiding behind walls spraying our smg's and battle rifles blindly while those two threw lightning and mind bolts about.

MD Mind Bolts chew up ISP very fast, even for a Mind Melter don't they? I mean 40 ISP for 2d4 can go very fast. Even assuming max roll on ME and ISP that's still about 200 (more if the MM is above Level 1) for maybe 5-shots at Level 1 (likely less). Now there are ways to beef up ISP (Psi-cola, Ley Lines, implants, etc), but the MM should have only had capacity for a few shots unless he/she switched to the lighter SDC or you have some house rules in play.

Yeah, 5 near instata kills so instead of facing say 10 enemies the gm would have to put in 15. All im saying is if your trying make it ultra rare mdc or low mdc game with mostly sdc weapons, you can have 2 of, i think it was a 5 man game, basicly firing 5 tank rounds a game when everyone else is shooting. 556 and 9mm.
Not to metion the mage with us.

I'd be more worried about the mage. ISP is a very limiting factor for the mind melter and pacing combats so that the MM can't meditate in between is a very effective way to keep the MM from dominating combat. The mage, however, can replenish his PPE between fights without much trouble.

--flatline

Zamion138 wrote:

ShadowLogan wrote:

Zamion138 wrote:The two were a caster and a mind melter. We the non psi non casters were hiding behind walls spraying our smg's and battle rifles blindly while those two threw lightning and mind bolts about.

MD Mind Bolts chew up ISP very fast, even for a Mind Melter don't they? I mean 40 ISP for 2d4 can go very fast. Even assuming max roll on ME and ISP that's still about 200 (more if the MM is above Level 1) for maybe 5-shots at Level 1 (likely less). Now there are ways to beef up ISP (Psi-cola, Ley Lines, implants, etc), but the MM should have only had capacity for a few shots unless he/she switched to the lighter SDC or you have some house rules in play.

Yeah, 5 near instata kills so instead of facing say 10 enemies the gm would have to put in 15. All im saying is if your trying make it ultra rare mdc or low mdc game with mostly sdc weapons, you can have 2 of, i think it was a 5 man game, basicly firing 5 tank rounds a game when everyone else is shooting. 556 and 9mm.
Not to metion the mage with us.

There are a few things the GM could do to counter the Caster/MM:
1. have the NPCs Dodge the attack if Strike Rolls are involved then presumably one can dodge either of them (might require a high roll)
2. out range them as both powers can be out-ranged by an SDC SMG or Rifle (unless the MM is very high level)
3. give them some spell/power/item to make them immune to energy attacks like this (either magic/TW items, natural abilities, etc)
4. make them beefy (SDC wise) with high protective value SDC armor so they have to roll damage so it isn't an instant kill.
5. in Psyscape there are two classes that can negate spent ISP/PPE making it more costly for the MM/Caster to throw out the heavy stuff
6. don't give them XP since the approach used by them really wouldn't count as even a minor menace from their POV
7. have 1-2 MDC capable opponents in the NPC group (ie Leader, or the "Tank", D-Bee, etc) that will force them to use more than one attack to drop leaving the "easier" targets for the rest (and use the potential XP approach in #6).
8. the caster's magic attacks can be turned against him/her if a target is from CB1r that duplicates itself when struck by magic (and takes no damage)
9. have menaces that are only vulnerable to certain attacks (ex. Vampires, Werewolves, RMB monster rules), even MD attacks.

There are probably more, so no I don't think its impossible to run a game like you describe w/a few MDC hitters. It just requires a bit of work and thinking with regard to preparation.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:I'll just let you know: his experience is pretty common, almost typical.

is it? Sure we have a few complaints about it every year, but it hardly represents a majority.

You kind of jumped from "pretty common, almost typical" to "The Majority."
Not sure how or why you did that.

Because Pretty common, almost typical" and "the majority" seem to denote roughly the same number of people.

If not, then I have no idea what "pretty common, almost typical" means.

30%?
40%?

and if that low, how can you discribe it as "almost typical?" Almost typical certainly seems to indicate that it's true more often than not, and if that's not "the majority" then I don't know what it means.

Actually, "common" would often mean that it's true more often than other options, not that it's true more often than other options combined
Also, commonness has to do with regularity, not necessarily overall percentages.

Say you're looking at a person's typical dinner diet.
On Mondays, they have pizza for dinner.
On Tuesdays, they have steak for dinner.
On Wednesday, they have pizza for dinner.
On Thursday, they have tacos for dinner.
On Friday, they have pizza for dinner.
On Saturday, they have Chinese food for dinner.
On Sunday, they have soup for dinner.

On three out of seven occasions, they have pizza, making it the most common meal for the person in question, event though they have pizza less than 50% of the time.
If instead they had sandwiches for dinner on Mondays, pizza would still be the most common meal for the person in question.
If instead they had steak for dinner on Mondays, pizza would be tied for the most common meal for the person in question, in which case it would STILL be common.
For that matter, using the meal plans as laid out originally, ALL of these foods would be common, because each of them is eaten with regularity. Eating steak once a weak means that you only eat it 1/7th of the time... but it also means that you eat it regularly enough for it to be a very common meal for you.

Likewise, in the above case, any one of the above meals would be able to be said to constitute a "typical" meal for the person in question, because they eat each of those foods with overall regularity.

There are no hard and fast percentages attached to the terms "typical" or "common."

I don't consider once every two months or so regular. to me, reguarly would be every week or so.

This is probably the root of the problem- you don't understand the usage of the word "regular."
Most children and adults should see their dentist for a regular cleaning and check up every six months, according to dentists and other sources.
Regular pap smears are supposed to occur every two years.
Regular eye exams occur once per year.
And so forth.

And again, if a majority does not require something to be "common", then I ask what you DO think common means.

Occurring, found, or done often.

Often, before you ask, means "Frequently; many times."

Neither necessarily means "in the majority of cases," although there often is overlap.

Funny enough, the people who don't run into problems with MDC don't talk about "yep, that MDC mechanic sure works just fine".

A lot of the people who "don't run into problems with MDC" are actually people who DO run into problems with MDC, but don't realize it.
Instead, they think that they're people who run into problems with SDC, and start threads asking how SDC creatures can even survive on Rifts Earth, or claiming that there's no use for SDC classes/animals/monsters/weapons, etc.

I've seen even fewer threads on that than I do complaining about MDC.

Since both are symptoms of the same thing, you could be combining the totals, not comparing them.

Even togeather, I don't think either extreme represents the majority of Rifts game experiances. They're just that--the extreme ends.

It seems like you think that something is either the Majority, or an "extreme end."[/quote]

*considers*

I retract both my objection and my argument. Your absolutely correct.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:*considers*

I retract both my objection and my argument. Your absolutely correct.

I never quite know what to do when this happens.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:*considers*

I retract both my objection and my argument. Your absolutely correct.

I never quite know what to do when this happens.

Quick! Act as if nothing has happened!

--flatline