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http://www.courthousenews.com/2013/07/2 ... ormers.pdf

Talk about grasping at straws... seems like they'll do anything for attention these days.

Seto Kaiba wrote:http://www.courthousenews.com/2013/07/23/Transformers.pdf

Talk about grasping at straws... seems like they'll do anything for attention these days.

Looks like a sound case. They clearly drew a VF-1 on the box of their new product for SDCC13... HG has to defend their property.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:Looks like a sound case. They clearly drew a VF-1 on the box of their new product for SDCC13... HG has to defend their property.

Um... No.

I've gone over the filing with a fine-toothed comb and had a look at both the box art and item itself, and Harmony Gold isn't really on the level here the way they were with Catalyst. What's on the SDCC 2013 special set box art is very obviously no VF-1, as it's missing most of the key design features that set the VF-1 apart from the F-14. It's crudely drawn, to be sure, it's pretty clearly a F-14 rather than a VF-1. The item itself has a DYRL-esque paintjob in one area, but otherwise is just a stock F-14 with an ugly box on top that is only vaguely reminiscent of a VF-1's Super Pack.

This would be like Big West taking Harmony Gold to court for the Sentinels destroids... yeah, there are some superficial similarities, but you'd have a devil of a time proving an actual violation occurred. With a little luck, Hasbro's legal staff will bury Harmony Gold's claim in short order, and put them in their place. Smart money says the perceived visual similarity of the VF-1 and F-14 will be the cornerstone of Hasbro's defense... and a solid one at that.

(If the court does side with Harmony Gold, we might get REALLY lucky... since that would provide precedent for Big West to sue Harmony Gold for infringement over the Sentinels destroid in LLA and Super Shadow Fighter in RTSC.)

um, yes.
both the box art and the model inside are the G-1 Jet-fire, and even the item card the comes with it shows the Very VF-1 looking battiloid mode jetfire had... I'm persoally siding with HG on this one, this items fails to show a 30% divergence from the item it copies.
unlike the Sentinels Battiloids that are only vaguely reminiscent of the items they are based on.

but we might get REALLY lucky, and HG loses, and then they can make as many knock off's of the existing Macross designs and sell them domestically as Robotech w/o possible retribution from Big west...

Colonel Wolfe wrote:both the box art and the model inside are the G-1 Jet-fire, [...]

No, they're not. I say that as someone who owns a G1 Jetfire toy. The G1 Jetfire WAS a VF-1... in the most stringent and literal sense imaginable. He was a slightly redeco'd Takatoku kanzen henkei VF-1 Super Valkyrie. This thing is not the G1 Jetfire or anything similar. It's painted to look vaguely like G1 Jetfire, but the actual physical design is a Grumman F-14 Tomcat with a smaller version of Skyfire/Jetfire's distinctive cockpit/backpack thing. Harmony Gold can't claim copyright on that.

Similiar? Kind of. But not clear-cut enough for this to be a slam-dunk case the way Harmony Gold's tiff with Catalyst Game Labs was. I honestly don't think Harmony Gold will win this one.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-nMeTWk4xJfE/U ... 00/063.JPG
Shows the VF-1 battiloid as this items transformation...

http://cobra788.blogspot.com/2013/07/sd ... boxed.html

above shows the a full unbox and details of the unit.

its clearly plagiarizing the VF-1, which HG has the rights to in the US.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-nMeTWk4xJfE/UeSvOcjeLCI/AAAAAAAAAfs/DtXQhPpyY3s/s1600/063.JPG
Shows the VF-1 battiloid as this items transformation...

That, yes, is an issue... but the rest isn't. If they still have a license to the art from the original distributor that predates Harmony Gold's, they may be entirely in the clear. I'm not certain exactly when Hasbro acquired the rights to the Takatoku VF-1, though.

It's the Great American Pastime: Sue Somebody!

taalismn wrote:It's the Great American Pastime: Sue Somebody!

True, that... a proud tradition going all the way back to our earliest colonial days.

I'm thinking that if Hasbro wants to, they'll utterly bury HG given the relative sizes of the legal department. Meanwhile, of course, HG will give itself yet another black eye among the fandom, continuing to shrink its own fan base, and of course make certain that yet *another* large company, this one with, shall we say, superior model makers will never work with them.

Yo know one other thing I was thinking of- a lot of HG's claim to the property rests on their trademarks. But those trademarks may themselves rest on dodgy ground, but nobody's ever found it worth the time to go after them in the US. On the other hand, Hasbro has a big, big legal department. Now, my bet is this will be settled, because honestly, Hasbro has better things to do, but OTH, Harmony gold has shown itself willing to do really dumb stuff and they might successfully convince hasbro to go for the scorched earth policy.
That could be bad for HG.

Seto wrote:I'm not certain exactly when Hasbro acquired the rights to the Takatoku VF-1, though.

Jetfire was released as part of the 1985 toyline for Transformers. The specifics of when the rights are acquired I'm not sure, but the G1 toy did have animation for it in commercials (not to mention the box art) from that time period.

the question is, at least in my mind, does hasbro still have those rights they picked up in 1985?

and i am quite sure that the state of the macross ownership in japan will be brought up by the hasbro legal team, with an attempt to bring into question the legitimacy of HG's claims on macross.
how the court rules on that will have some wider ranging repercussions, IMO.
assuming that HG doesn't just offer an out of court settlement if things look bad for them.

mech798 wrote:I'm thinking that if Hasbro wants to, they'll utterly bury HG given the relative sizes of the legal department. Meanwhile, of course, HG will give itself yet another black eye among the fandom, continuing to shrink its own fan base, and of course make certain that yet *another* large company, this one with, shall we say, superior model makers will never work with them.

Except for the whole "Hasbro burying them via their superior legal dept", this kind of bad PR's so common for RT it probably won't make that much difference in the generally negative view most have of Harmony Gold. After all, the view most have of them is as a bitter bunch that are determined to screw over everyone they can to compensate for their own franchise being a big flop.

They've had so many PR black eyes since '99 that their staff probably get solicitation e-mails from zoo panda breeding programs instead of dating services.

glitterboy2098 wrote:the question is, at least in my mind, does hasbro still have those rights they picked up in 1985?

Considering the size of Hasbro and the length of their success with TF, I honestly would be stunned if they didn't. They were one of several companies to buy the rights to the inventory of Takatoku in '84...

glitterboy2098 wrote:and i am quite sure that the state of the macross ownership in japan will be brought up by the hasbro legal team, with an attempt to bring into question the legitimacy of HG's claims on macross. [...]

That much is a given, but the important part which will come up later will be when, exactly, the rights to the old Takatoku VF-1 came into Hasbro's possession. If it's before HG ran the RT series for the first time, they would be able to thumb their noses at HG with relative impunity.

Isnt this 'the sequel'? Wast there another HG/Hasbro clash back in the 80s over this Jetfire:
http://20thcenturytoycollector.com/wp-c ... t-copy.jpg

Before you go running off claiming HG's just out to make trouble, bear in mind that one of the inanities of US copyright/trademark law is that you HAVE to defend against every single unauthorized use of your material. That's why Disney goes after daycares or schools or some other place that paints Mickey on their wall. If you don't sue against infringement it's quite possible a judge will declare that you've abandoned your material and will award it to the other person.

silvermoon383 wrote:Before you go running off claiming HG's just out to make trouble, bear in mind that one of the inanities of US copyright/trademark law is that you HAVE to defend against every single unauthorized use of your material. That's why Disney goes after daycares or schools or some other place that paints Mickey on their wall. If you don't sue against infringement it's quite possible a judge will declare that you've abandoned your material and will award it to the other person.

But the problem is that this isn't an unauthorized use of Harmony Gold's material... a F-14 is not a VF-1.

True. An F-14 isn't a VF-1. One is fictional.

That doesn't lay their aesthetic similarities to rest.

Alrik Vas wrote:True. An F-14 isn't a VF-1. One is fictional.

That doesn't lay their aesthetic similarities to rest.

Yes, but the basic aesthetic similarity isn't enough... Harmony Gold has to establish actual, specific similarities in the design which are both distinctive and unique to the VF-1 design. The problem is, the VF-1's not all that different from the F-14 in basic configuration, and most of the distinctive "little touches" that link the two are missing on the Jetfire toy. The vernier decals and that little DYRL paint bit behind the cockpit are about all they have to work with on that front.

Oh, FFS, this sh1t is getting RIDICULOUS.

I have to admit - first glance I went 'huh, that looks like a VF-1'

I think those that don't know what Robotech is, would find it too similar to tell. Or find that Robotech is a bad knockoff to a superior Transformers Comics/Cartoons/Movie's

Tiree wrote:I have to admit - first glance I went 'huh, that looks like a VF-1'

I think those that don't know what Robotech is, would find it too similar to tell. Or find that Robotech is a bad knockoff to a superior Transformers Comics/Cartoons/Movie's

Reminds me of when kids who've played Star Craft see 40k mini's and are like, "They stole that from Blizzard."

I sigh...

Without knowing the amount of damages HG wants its hard to say what will ahppen. An IP attorney I know hinted that normally this sort of thing ends with teh producer agreeing not to make any more, and the plaintiff pretty much accepting that. But if HG is seroius about demanding damages and evidently a large amount, then Hasbro may figure that they're going to spend the money anyway, why not do so in a way to let people know you shouldn't mess about with them.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:True. An F-14 isn't a VF-1. One is fictional.

That doesn't lay their aesthetic similarities to rest.

Yes, but the basic aesthetic similarity isn't enough... Harmony Gold has to establish actual, specific similarities in the design which are both distinctive and unique to the VF-1 design. The problem is, the VF-1's not all that different from the F-14 in basic configuration, and most of the distinctive "little touches" that link the two are missing on the Jetfire toy. The vernier decals and that little DYRL paint bit behind the cockpit are about all they have to work with on that front.

We have to remember that we can't focus to much on one particular mode here, these are capable transforming into other layouts.

I agree that the fighter mode is going to be a lot harder for HG to prove, there are plenty of differences between the two designs and some of the similarities they share are too generic, leaving a small bit of potential overlap. The robot-mode though screams VF-1 Battloid-mode to me.

If this jet actually transformed - I do believe HG has a case. But it doesn't based on this: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-gqgP_8r37hE/U ... 00/008.JPG

And with that, they may have something with the comics, if they are making it look anywhere like the old TF toy. Now the old TV Series that had JetFire in it, JetFire didn't look anything like the toy... go figure!

The Sky Striker was the first toy I ever bought with my own money. I think I'm going to buy me one of these for the nostalgia of it.

Ah yes... the wonderous joy of the AMERICAN legal copyright & IP system... it's almost as borked as the GERMAN laws (where, a perfectly brilliant fan-made 40k film can never be shown, becuase if it is, German courts will award ALL 40k rights to the fan-film makers).
so here's something, eleminate ALL IP and copyright and trademark laws and try again, but this time without as much stupidity and out & out greed...HMMMM?!
Oh wait, that's actually resonable...
*Shrug* Oh well. Looking forwards to seeing HG get laughed out of court.

I'd say Hasbro might be skating on thin ice with this one. Though HG might also be reaching on this.

ShadowLogan wrote:We have to remember that we can't focus to much on one particular mode here, these are capable transforming into other layouts.

I agree that the fighter mode is going to be a lot harder for HG to prove, there are plenty of differences between the two designs and some of the similarities they share are too generic, leaving a small bit of potential overlap. The robot-mode though screams VF-1 Battloid-mode to me.

Again, the issue of "alike-ness" is important here. Harmony Gold would not be able to sue over someone who was importing a VF-0 toy, for instance, if the UN Spacy insignia decals HG has trademarked were left out.

http://www.shortpacked.com/

Well, Harmony Gold got someone's attention with their demand...

Seto Kaiba wrote:http://www.shortpacked.com/

Well, Harmony Gold got someone's attention with their demand...

Okay, I have to admit, that was funny. You know I'm surprised that no one sued Harmony Gold for their dodgy practice over the whole Macross rights. But I don't know any better since I just started reading about Harmony Gold.

Did a copyright search on Jetfire and found this.

Copyright search select keyword.

Relevance:
Type of Work: Visual Material
Registration Number / Date: VA0000186254 / 1985-03-08
Title: Autobot air guardian jetfire.
Description: sculpture.
Notes: Additional title from copy: U S C--autobot.
Copyright Claimant: Kabushiki Kaisha Bandai, also d.b.a Bandai Company, Ltd.
Copyright Notice: notice: Bandai
Date of Creation: 1982
Date of Publication: 1982-10-22
Authorship on Application: Kabushiki Kaisha Big West, employer for hire.
Previous Registration: Appl. identifies Japanese movie character Battroid Valkyrie as preexisting material.
Basis of Claim: New Matter: "recasting in three dimensional form, etc."
Copyright Note: C.O. correspondence.

Other Title: U S C--autobot.
Names: Bandai Company, Ltd.
Kabushiki Kaisha Big West
Kabushiki Kaisha Bandai.
Bandai.

Shawn Merrow wrote:Did a copyright search on Jetfire and found this.

Copyright search select keyword.

Relevance:
Type of Work: Visual Material
Registration Number / Date: VA0000186254 / 1985-03-08
Title: Autobot air guardian jetfire.
Description: sculpture.
Notes: Additional title from copy: U S C--autobot.
Copyright Claimant: Kabushiki Kaisha Bandai, also d.b.a Bandai Company, Ltd.
Copyright Notice: notice: Bandai
Date of Creation: 1982
Date of Publication: 1982-10-22
Authorship on Application: Kabushiki Kaisha Big West, employer for hire.
Previous Registration: Appl. identifies Japanese movie character Battroid Valkyrie as preexisting material.
Basis of Claim: New Matter: "recasting in three dimensional form, etc."
Copyright Note: C.O. correspondence.

Other Title: U S C--autobot.
Names: Bandai Company, Ltd.
Kabushiki Kaisha Big West
Kabushiki Kaisha Bandai.
Bandai.

Well, there goes the lawsuit. I hope Hasbro shows HG this.

Arnie100 wrote:Well, there goes the lawsuit. I hope Hasbro shows HG this.

This really changes nothing, since I doubt HG's legal team didn't take the time to do a simple patent search...
and honestly, the tons of reissues of Jetfire over the years aren't affected by Bandi's ownership of this patent...
including this sexy beast:
http://www.transformersclassics.com/new ... re_box.jpg

Its a copyright not a patent.

Shawn Merrow wrote:Its a copyright not a patent.

Same thing applies, I don't think their legal team has any less access to the internet than we do... in fact they might even be able to read this forum...
and honestly, Bandi hasn't defended said Copyright with the 5-6 reissued "autobot guardian Jetfire" models that Hasbro has made in the last 3 decades...
if they had, we could easily find where they Sued hasbro over the above model.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:http://www.transformersclassics.com/new ... re_box.jpg

I remember that!

IMHO, the jet they show is the SkyStriker with Jetfire's markings, NOT the VF-1 that they say it is. Granted, BOTH are based loosely on the F-14 Tomcat (and I FULLY know what each looks like, in detail, thanks---my dad still has his F14 Tomcat model from when he worked at Grumman (NOT Northrop-Grumman, but GRUMMAN Aerospace) for 30+ years. The SkyStriker is the GI Joe version of the F-14 Tomcat, which I see in those images. THAT is a SkyStriker with the non-Valkyrie thruster pack & Autobot markings.

Seto Kaiba wrote:http://www.shortpacked.com/

Well, Harmony Gold got someone's attention with their demand...

BookWyrm wrote:IMHO, the jet they show is the SkyStriker with Jetfire's markings, NOT the VF-1 that they say it is. Granted, BOTH are based loosely on the F-14 Tomcat [...]

Not "based loosely on"... the SkyStriker IS a F-14 Tomcat. The VF-1 only shares the basic shape in common, but otherwise is extremely different.

Okay, anyone know when the Harmony Gold SDF Macross tapes were issued? According to Wikipedia (yea, not the best source), Codename: Robotech aired in March of 1985 about the time of the copyright date for Jetfire.

Based on this list, the first episode aired on 3-4-1985. The copyright date listed for Jetfire is 3-8-1985.

IINM the HG SDF Macross stuff came out in about early to mid 1984 with the Robotech series airing in some major cities in late 84. Both SDF Macross & Robotech are mentioned in the Macross (RT #1) comic forward published in 84.


The first issues of Transformers are also dated 1984

From Transformers Production Bible dated May 10, 1984
http://tfarchive.com/cartoons/bible/#012
http://tfarchive.com/cartoons/bible/#031
http://tfarchive.com/cartoons/bible/#032
http://tfarchive.com/cartoons/bible/#090

I may be mistaken, but I'm pretty sure there was a G1 art book published in early to mid 00's with the VF-1 Jetfire in it. I think it had a notation on that page about HG but not positive. Rumor at the time was that HG didn't challenge publication because they were trying to get a RT-TF xover comic deal.

Edit: added xformer info/links

rtsurfer wrote:IINM the HG SDF Macross stuff came out in about early to mid 1984 with the Robotech series airing in some major cities in late 84. Both SDF Macross & Robotech are mentioned in the Macross (RT #1) comic forward published in 84.

[...]

All in all, I think "first use" will matter less here than when each of the parties involved signed the licensing agreements that made their respective uses of the VF-1 for merchandising possible. Hasbro has a couple of different options for dealing with Harmony Gold's claim... they can either demonstrate that the allegedly-infringing toy is dissimilar enough from the VF-1 that they're not stepping on Harmony Gold's toes, or they can attempt to establish that their license agreement to use the VF-1 1/55 toy predates the exclusivity of Harmony Gold's merchandising rights to the original Macross series.

We know, thanks to their screw-ups and the resultant copyright confirmation litigation, exactly when Harmony Gold got the rights to distribute Macross, but when they teamed up with Revell and managed to make their access to the series an entirely exclusive arrangement is somewhat vague. If Hasbro acquired the rights to use the Takatoku 1/55 VF-1 Valkyrie in 1984, before Harmony Gold's agreement with Revell, they could well be in the clear. IIRC, their license to Takatoku's VF-1s comes from Bandai, who bought the molds and such from Takatoku when they went under, sometime in or around Spring of 1984.*


I don't recall, offhand, when Takatoku formally went under... I remember that Dorvack was their last series project, and they went under before DYRL came out, meaning it had to have happened before July '84. Harmony Gold had their initial license agreement from Tatsunoko in January of 1984, but it's unclear when exactly Revell got involved.

One of HGs claims is that this new Jetfire collectable will confuse the people that see or buy it. Well the fact it says G.I. Joe and transformers on the box should be a clear indication that this collectable is not a Robotech/Macross collectable. 99% at the least of people that would want to buy this new Jetfire will most likely know that in the past it shared the same design as mechs in Robotech/Macross meaning no one is going to confuse Robotech/Macross with Transformers. It's an exclusive it's not like tons of people will be seeing this at the local store and then forget about Robotech, HG did that to themselves already, made the show largely unknown in this point in time.

Anyone into the Robotech Palladiumverse that saw this product would not get confused over seeing it, Skystriker Jetfire, because they would already have a good understanding of said universe.

Wait, they want everyone to return their Jetfires? Am I reading that right?

Anthar wrote:Wait, they want everyone to return their Jetfires? Am I reading that right?

It woudln't be harmony gold if they didn't include at least one completely unenforceable demand-- once a jetfire is yours, it is *yours* by the doctrine of first sale.*

*sometimes clauses like this are designed to keep a company from disposing of material in stock, but the actual suit as HG is filing it seems to be arguing that HG should be sending people out to get them back.

It's a troll lawsuit and my main fear is that Hasbro will just sigh and give baby his bottle rather than unleashing the fire of a thousand suns on them.

RiverJack wrote:One of HGs claims is that this new Jetfire collectable will confuse the people that see or buy it. Well the fact it says G.I. Joe and transformers on the box should be a clear indication that this collectable is not a Robotech/Macross collectable. [...]

Quite frankly, an eyes-on comparison between the two should be more than sufficient to tell that the F-14 we have in Jetfire isn't a VF-1. 'course, since Harmony Gold doesn't have any VF-1 toys in circulation these days, and virtually nobody remembers what Robotech is anymore, it's a pretty weak argument on their part.

Now, if we were talking about a VF-0 Phoenix from Macross Zero, that might be grounds for some minor confusion, since the VF-0 does look a lot like the F-14 as well.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

RiverJack wrote:One of HGs claims is that this new Jetfire collectable will confuse the people that see or buy it. Well the fact it says G.I. Joe and transformers on the box should be a clear indication that this collectable is not a Robotech/Macross collectable. [...]

Quite frankly, an eyes-on comparison between the two should be more than sufficient to tell that the F-14 we have in Jetfire isn't a VF-1. 'course, since Harmony Gold doesn't have any VF-1 toys in circulation these days, and virtually nobody remembers what Robotech is anymore, it's a pretty weak argument on their part.

Now, if we were talking about a VF-0 Phoenix from Macross Zero, that might be grounds for some minor confusion, since the VF-0 does look a lot like the F-14 as well.

Hay, when I first saw the picture, the first thing that came to might was a Veritech.

Jetfire should be embarrassed to have such a tiny fast pack that can fly off