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what are the chances of one or more ARMD carriers and/or Oberth Destroyers surviving Dolza's attack on earth?
could ones in earth orbit have survived?
how about lunar orbit?
could there have been ships elsewhere in the solar system for some reason? (missions to other planets, asteroids, etc?

and in a related question, if none survivied would the UEDF have tried to build more? if so, would they have been updated with improved tech and/or salvaged zent weapons and systems?

the RPG provides fairly decent stats for these craft, but since most games are likely to be set after the 1st war, i'm curious as to whether a good case could be made for having an ARMD or Oberth class ship show up during the reconstruction period.

i know that the 1st edition RPG had an ARMD survive, but would such a thing be believable in 2nd ed?

Pretty good I think, considering the SDF-2 had two of them for arms.

I've not accepted that they were all destroyed.

Arnie100 wrote:Pretty good I think, considering the SDF-2 had two of them for arms.

you mean the SDF-2 which never actually appeared in robotech except as dialog?

and the ARMD arms thing for Macross class ships isn't SDF:macross OSM, it only showed up in the spin offs. the SDF-1 was supposed to use ARMD's, but settled for the two wet navy ships since they were around 390.4 light minutes (or about 44 billion miles) from the nearest ARMD's when they actually had a chance to dock anything.

depending on how you interprite the dialog about the SDF-2 being destroyed by khyron, it's either never been seen, or is an exact replica of the SDF-1 visually, including the wet navy ships.

personally i assume "never actually been seen" and assume it was a 'super-tokugawa' of sorts.. that would be logical, and you could easily have a tokugawa like ship landed somewhere on the outskirts of new macross and it never actually be visible in the scenes.

glitterboy2098 wrote:what are the chances of one or more ARMD carriers and/or Oberth Destroyers surviving Dolza's attack on earth?

I suppose it depends on whether or not they were all stationed in Earth orbit or not. If the entire fleet was in orbit, then surviving ships are a no-go.

If, as in the OSM, there was already a sizable military presence (and working shipyard) on Luna, then surviving ships are likely as they would be out of the line of fire.

The OSM did have several ships survive by the sheer good luck of being assigned to bases on the moon, including the half-complete SDF-2. It's also possible that ships survived at the L5 manufacturing station too... and one could go and count the L5 frontline base as one, as it's basically an ARMD without engines. Of course, neither Apollo Base nor the L5 station and the accompanying frontline base exist in RT, so a number of liberties may need to be taken for that setting.

glitterboy2098 wrote:could there have been ships elsewhere in the solar system for some reason? (missions to other planets, asteroids, etc?

Unlikely, IMO, since those ships were not fitted with fold engines. Even in the OSM, it wasn't until after the war that ships with fold drives came into service, though the ARMDs were designed to be fold-capable even if they had not received their fold engines when things got messy.

glitterboy2098 wrote:and in a related question, if none survivied would the UEDF have tried to build more?

Isn't that basically what the Tokugawas are? A bunch of incomplete ships that survived things and were finished later? I expect the UEEF had finished any incomplete ships that were being built, but likely went for new classes soon after.

glitterboy2098 wrote:if so, would they have been updated with improved tech and/or salvaged zent weapons and systems?

Possibly... tho the only tech humanity seems to have salvaged was reflex furnaces and fold engines in RT.

glitterboy2098 wrote:i know that the 1st edition RPG had an ARMD survive, but would such a thing be believable in 2nd ed?

On the basis of the OSM's line, I would say it is... but YMMV.

glitterboy2098 wrote:you mean the SDF-2 which never actually appeared in robotech except as dialog?

and the ARMD arms thing for Macross class ships isn't SDF:macross OSM, it only showed up in the spin offs. [...]

Arnie may be referring to the RT comics from Comico... where the SDF-2 did appear in the version of Ep36's events unique to the comic adaptation. Macek based the art for it upon a unused (but complete and canon) design the creators of Macross did for the SDF-2 before the scenes it was to appear in were cut in the storyboard phase of Ep.36 due to episode run time issues.

http://www.macross2.net/m3/sdfmacross/sdf2.htm

The comic did show the SDF-2 with the ARMD A and B sinking in the lake... there's a scan in the FAQ on Robotech.com.

glitterboy2098 wrote:what are the chances of one or more ARMD carriers and/or Oberth Destroyers surviving Dolza's attack on earth?
could ones in earth orbit have survived?
how about lunar orbit?
could there have been ships elsewhere in the solar system for some reason? (missions to other planets, asteroids, etc?

#1&2. Yes it is possible, though I don't think I would want to put it in terms of numbers in this case. Factors:
- Of the 3 ARMDs seen during the bombardment in FOA, IINM one is shown being taken down and another damaged, with a third getting away.
-Keeping in mind the Zentraedi did not hit every portion of the surface of the Earth (and I include bodies of water in this case) per the World Report display in Alaska (and later we see Earth still has oceans)
-relative sizes of the ships may favor the Orberth over the ARMD
-NYC appears to have survived with intact landmarks by 2040s (unless one ascribes to them being rebuilt), it shows that holes existed in the bombardment, and it only requires the ARMD/Orberth to be in one of those holes.

#3. It really depends on just how high the ZGF was in their orbit (to catch them in bombardment of Earth), and/or if they targeted the lunar vicinity off camera (if below Lunar). I don't recall any positional references for the fleet (hard numbers), but they do appear to be closer in.

#4. If RT.com's Infopedia is followed, the ARMD appears to be limited to near Earth space (they list Lunar orbit, but that should also give them the option of going farther if they stage from the Moon), the Orberth has Earth-Mars transit capacity (so I can see it handling Earth-Venus with appropriate trajectories).

Would the UEDC have kept ships deployed far a field in the solar system after the Zentraedi arrival in 2009? Other than Sara Base (destroyed in the "last war"), we have no indication of other Solar System facilities in this time frame, or if those ships are even involved in exploration. So here I would have to say No, but ultimately it is a GMs call. I'm not sure if the uEDC would consider setting up an "Alpha Site" with the Grand Cannon being thought to be enough to protect them.

glitterboy2098 wrote:and in a related question, if none survivied would the UEDF have tried to build more? if so, would they have been updated with improved tech and/or salvaged zent weapons and systems?

I don't think they would have tried to build more, but if any where close to being finished (or salvageable) they may complete (restore) them. I think they would have been improved is a given as they where shown to be outclassed, and Earth had a desire to get their hands on ships and mecha as fast as they could. New Production though seems to focus on new ship classes (Tok via dialogue, and the ASC ships seen spliced into TMS through the use of TRM footage in Ep31).

glitterboy2098 wrote:i know that the 1st edition RPG had an ARMD survive, but would such a thing be believable in 2nd ed?

Given that RT Battlecry has (atleast) one ARMD survive and in service (Ch4:Mutiny), I don't see why the 2E can not. It might require glossing over how it survived by sheer chance.

Ones that were in service most likely were destroyed...however I would think there were more under construction and after the RoD there would be design changes and possibly installation of better system most notably engines and fold drives.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:what are the chances of one or more ARMD carriers and/or Oberth Destroyers surviving Dolza's attack on earth?

I suppose it depends on whether or not they were all stationed in Earth orbit or not. If the entire fleet was in orbit, then surviving ships are a no-go.

If, as in the OSM, there was already a sizable military presence (and working shipyard) on Luna, then surviving ships are likely as they would be out of the line of fire.

The OSM did have several ships survive by the sheer good luck of being assigned to bases on the moon, including the half-complete SDF-2. It's also possible that ships survived at the L5 manufacturing station too... and one could go and count the L5 frontline base as one, as it's basically an ARMD without engines. Of course, neither Apollo Base nor the L5 station and the accompanying frontline base exist in RT, so a number of liberties may need to be taken for that setting.

given the size of the bases seen in the southern cross portion on the moon, believing there was a presence there is certainly viable. certain ALUCE could have been a pre-1st war vintage base since it was supposed to have been mothballed by the late 2020's.. if it was post 1st war it probably still would have been running.
and given the sheer scale of the lunar dockyards seen in New Gen, when they launch the assualt on reflex point? i could see a shipyard/massive resource facility. though i'd assume the ARMD's and Oberths were all built in orbit (they don't look suited to landing anywhere..). but given the moon's fairly large deposits of aluminum (lunar soil is similar to bauxite, and can be smelted into aluminum pretty easily. also produced oxygen and silica glass at the same time. handy), there is a lot of iron in its rocks (good for steel.. smelting it also produces oxygen as a byproduct.), it has materials on the soil suited to making high strength ceramics, and so on.

and that's just what you can make just by scooping up the common as dirt (because it pretty much is) Regolith,
having a resource base making the heavy and bulky metal and ceramic parts for the ships would make a lot of sense.. getting the base built to begin with would frontload most of the effort, since lunar gravity makes it fairly easy to lift heavt and bulky items into orbit. (heck, you can build alumnum/oxygen rockets in situ to do the job using lunar materials, or you could build a mass driver to lob them into orbit pretty easily. we'll ignore the possibility of a lunar ground to orbit space elevator because it doesn't fit the feel of the setting..)

presumably you'd want some ARMD's and OBberth's in orbit to defend these bases.

glitterboy2098 wrote:could there have been ships elsewhere in the solar system for some reason? (missions to other planets, asteroids, etc?

Unlikely, IMO, since those ships were not fitted with fold engines. Even in the OSM, it wasn't until after the war that ships with fold drives came into service, though the ARMDs were designed to be fold-capable even if they had not received their fold engines when things got messy.

elsewhere in our solar system i mean.. the new comics establish the Oberth class could get to mars easily enough, and the ARMD's don't look like they are less well suited to such trips (if any thing, they look like they'd hold bigger remass tanks allowing the trips to be easier to do). and if you can get ot mars, you can get to, Venus, near earth asteroids, the main belt, etc.. frankly, the limit is life support. you can use lower delta-v orbits to reach even farther out (jupiter, saturn, etc), they just take a lot longer.

i could see an Oberth or even an ARMD (due to its better small craft capacity) being used to ferry scientific teams to other places in the solar system.. not just pure research either, but practical stuff too. parallax measurements of the stars to better fix their positions and galactic motion, to make more accurate maps for future interstellar trips. locating and nudging immediately dangerous earth crossing asteroids to remove their chances of being used as weapons against earth, wargames to train crews in interplanetary (as opposed to planetary orbit) battle strategies, etc.

glitterboy2098 wrote:you mean the SDF-2 which never actually appeared in robotech except as dialog?

and the ARMD arms thing for Macross class ships isn't SDF:macross OSM, it only showed up in the spin offs. [...]

Arnie may be referring to the RT comics from Comico... where the SDF-2 did appear in the version of Ep36's events unique to the comic adaptation. Macek based the art for it upon a unused (but complete and canon) design the creators of Macross did for the SDF-2 before the scenes it was to appear in were cut in the storyboard phase of Ep.36 due to episode run time issues.

http://www.macross2.net/m3/sdfmacross/sdf2.htm

The comic did show the SDF-2 with the ARMD A and B sinking in the lake... there's a scan in the FAQ on Robotech.com.

the old comics are effectively non-canon.. especially in this issue, since the comics added the ship into scenes where it didn't exist in the series.

since we never saw the ship in the series itself, any at for it is purely speculative in regards to robotech.
personally i rather like this fan-version.. it makes more sense that earth's first fully locally built SDF would be a variation on the similarly sized Tokugawa class battleship, instead of an exact copy of the SDF-1.. the SDF-1 was mostly just a reskin of the frame and important internals of an alien ship. the idea they'd duplicate it's appearance exactly when they didn't have the same engines, powerplant and internal systems seems a bit silly. especially when you consider a lot of people assume the SDF-2 could transform into the semi-humanoid layout the SDF-1 was in.. when that was a stopgap due to not having the materials to replace a stretch of powerl conduit between the main powerplant and the main gun.. one would assume the SDF-2 would have been built to not need such a stopgap.

glitterboy2098 wrote:what are the chances of one or more ARMD carriers and/or Oberth Destroyers surviving Dolza's attack on earth?
could ones in earth orbit have survived?
how about lunar orbit?
could there have been ships elsewhere in the solar system for some reason? (missions to other planets, asteroids, etc?

and in a related question, if none survived would the UEDF have tried to build more? if so, would they have been updated with improved tech and/or salvaged zent. weapons and systems?

the RPG provides fairly decent stats for these craft, but since most games are likely to be set after the 1st war, i'm curious as to whether a good case could be made for having an ARMD or Oberth class ship show up during the reconstruction period.

i know that the 1st edition RPG had an ARMD survive, but would such a thing be believable in 2nd ed?

If they were not in the orbit around the earth moon system, then they would most likely would of survived. Because they would of been outside of the kill zone of the grand fleet.

I'd say no, unless any were hunkered down on the Moon.
The Zentraedi, even though they were focused on the SDF-1, wouldn't be unwise enough to pass up investigating other micronian vessels, looking for intelligence on the micronians. Such encounters would NOT have gone well for for the Terran vessels if the Zentraedi were even halfway serious about operational security(or had a bastard like Khyron in charge who just liked to blow things up).

For my "Robotech" I used the list of ships from uRRG that survived the Rain of Death. No it's not cannon nor do i care that it isn't. I had them serve until enough new classes of ships (Battle, Banshee, Tristar and Tokugawa) were in service then had them decommissioned and scrapped.

I think some of the ARMD's survived, Heck, if they didn't they could easily build more, by 2014 they launched Carpenter's Tokugawa. before that, the Master's Encounter and destroy a ASC style ship 20LY away from earth.
The SDF-2 was built and ready to launch before Khyron's attack.
Building some relatively small ARMD platforms don't seam that hard.

glitterboy2098 wrote:given the size of the bases seen in the southern cross portion on the moon, believing there was a presence there is certainly viable. certain ALUCE could have been a pre-1st war vintage base since it was supposed to have been mothballed by the late 2020's.. if it was post 1st war it probably still would have been running.

Eh... I dunno about that, the AotSC description seems to imply that the ALuCE facility and the other stations on the moon were built after the 1st Robotech War to provide resources for the military build-up leading to the 2022 launch of the Pioneer Mission.

glitterboy2098 wrote:and given the sheer scale of the lunar dockyards seen in New Gen, when they launch the assualt on reflex point? i could see a shipyard/massive resource facility. though i'd assume the ARMD's and Oberths were all built in orbit (they don't look suited to landing anywhere..).

Possibly something built after the first war, since the bases there were allegedly civilian installations until the 2nd Robotech War, when they were taken over by the military. As far as canon goes, the ARMDs and possibly all the Oberth-class guided missile destroyers were built in low Earth orbit. That means the L5 manufacturing base definitely doesn't exist, and therefore doesn't exist after the first war in Robotech. The survival of both the shipyard and frontline base at Earth-Moon L5 were what allowed the UN Gov't to leap right back into shipbuilding immediately after the war in the OSM.

glitterboy2098 wrote:elsewhere in our solar system i mean.. the new comics establish the Oberth class could get to mars easily enough, [...]

I know, but just because you can reach somewhere easily doesn't mean you can do it quickly or that you have a reason to go there. Humanity's one installation outside the "Earth sphere" was Mars Base Sara (Salla base in the OSM), and that was abandoned. My bet for surviving ships in the RT-verse would be ships stationed at L3 as an early warning unit to spot enemy vessels trying to use the moon's gravity shadow to hide their fold effects.

glitterboy2098 wrote:the old comics are effectively non-canon.. especially in this issue, since the comics added the ship into scenes where it didn't exist in the series.

I know, I'm just offering some potential clarification for Arnie's post there... though the official line that they went with for ages was that the SDF-2 was, as in Macross, a second Macross-class ship. The materials that were made for Robotech II: the Sentinels went so far as to suggest that they were reusing components from the SDF-1 in its construction, some of which eventually found their way into the SDF-3.

I seem to recall a mention of an engine transfer in one of the later episodes of the Macross saga.....

Could always go with the alternate story of a two pronged attack....one at the incomplete and thus fairly defenseless SDF-2 in low orbit and the attack on New Macross and the SDF-1 resulting in the destruction of both vessels having the SDF-2 interred at the site of the SDF-1 after the battle....

@glitterboy
RT.com infoepdia puts the survival/manufacturing capacity of both ships in these terms: "Construction was immediately halted, and most surviving Armors were destroyed during Dolza's attack on Earth more than a year later" & "No new Oberth vessels were built afterwards. In Dolza's attack on the planet, most of the remaining ships were destroyed." Construction is referenced to the 2009 engagement(s), but there are no hard numbers other than 4out of 10 ARMDs and 2minumum Oberths being destroyed in '09 and nothing with regard to numerical suvivors for the RoD other than they exist.

glitterboy2098 wrote:given the size of the bases seen in the southern cross portion on the moon, believing there was a presence there is certainly viable. certain ALUCE could have been a pre-1st war vintage base since it was supposed to have been mothballed by the late 2020's..

It may not be unreasonable to assume that the facility was expanded in stages over the course of its lifetime. Dialouge points to additional work needing to be done to be made useable by the ASC. Visuals do show (two of) the initial landing ships to be exposed and on the surface (others just off camera?), not in silos as depicted in later episodes. That would seem to point to AirCav-1 potentially constructing the silos used later, at minimum for the larger ships.

AotSC does mention an effort at an early Lunar Colonization in an undefined period (it also seems ALUCE was a series of bases, and ALUCE-1 has grown). It does not appear to have taken off though since by the late 2020s it was mothballed (or was it mothballed due to the war?).

Seto wrote:I know, but just because you can reach somewhere easily doesn't mean you can do it quickly or that you have a reason to go there. Humanity's one installation outside the "Earth sphere" was Mars Base Sara (Salla base in the OSM), and that was abandoned. My bet for surviving ships in the RT-verse would be ships stationed at L3 as an early warning unit to spot enemy vessels trying to use the moon's gravity shadow to hide their fold effects.

Quickly is not required though to support operations in this zone, canon has ARMD/Orberth with the necessary "range" for operations between Earth-Moon and Earth-Mars by explicit statements, that capacity also allows other missions in-between (Earth-Moon or Earth-Solar or Mars-Solar Lagrange Points, or Apollo & Armor Asteroids, Venus and Mercury potentially). Granted Range in this case is a misnomer, at least in the traditional sense. Life Support is the true limiter here, since if you have the propulsion to go to Mars you can pretty much go anywhere in the Solar System with the main hiccup being consumables and transit time.

There may not be a military reason to go everywhere one can with the UEDF ships, but there are reasons to go outside of that limited scope. They could be used to support scientific expeditions. Asteroid defense. Gain experience operating in deep space.

Sara Base is the only facility that we know of off Earth during the TMS period, but that doesn't mean it is the only one. An effort at setting up on the Moon would be easier, and given the scope of the Martian Facility, a Lunar facility(s) should be just as extensive if not more so given it would be easier for Earth to support.

I'd have to check, but I think Moon Base Luna was constructed before the 1st Robotech War.

I was reading this thread and I noticed a lot of bases, stations, and outposts mentioned. I know these are not mentioned in the current Robotech RPG books and I don't remember them in the 1st edition books so is there a list or description of these on one of the fan sites?

Warshield73 wrote:I was reading this thread and I noticed a lot of bases, stations, and outposts mentioned. I know these are not mentioned in the current Robotech RPG books and I don't remember them in the 1st edition books so is there a list or description of these on one of the fan sites?

Which ones? Some of 'em aren't actually from Robotech at all, but rather come from the Macross universe instead. Several of 'em have equivalents in Robotech, but not all.

The ones I specifically mentioned were the L5 Manufacturing Station, L5 Frontline Station, and several moon bases including the Apollo Base shipyards. Those don't appear to have any equivalent in Robotech. They were, respectively, the factory station that built the UN Spacy's ARMD-class space carriers and Oberth-class destroyers, the base (said to be what ARMDs were based on) is its protection, and Apollo Base was the largest base on the moon (besides Grand Cannon IV) where the SDF-2 was built.

Salla/Sara Base was the installation on Mars, abandoned for years, that was shown in the series (and destroyed in the same episode it appeared). The Robotech version had a lot of small resource stations on the moon in the 2020s and later, including ALuCE base, which was the UEEF's principal staging area for retaking Earth.

Yeah I am completely unfamiliar with any of the other lines and most of what I know of Robotech comes from Palladium or the Jack McKinley novels. The only thing I know about is Aluce and the factory satellite where the SDF-3 was built. Now the Facotry Satelite, does that become Space Station Liberty in Robotech?

Warshield73 wrote:Yeah I am completely unfamiliar with any of the other lines and most of what I know of Robotech comes from Palladium or the Jack McKinley novels. [...]

Ah, that'd explain it... those two things are, in practice, Robotech in name only.

Warshield73 wrote:The only thing I know about is Aluce and the factory satellite where the SDF-3 was built.

Those are two of the most important off-world bases after the first war, along with Mars Base and Jupiter Base, which have never appeared but supplied the troops the New Generation's story is about. There are a few other bases in the story, like a UEEF compound on Tirol, but they're pretty minor and either appear once or not at all.

Warshield73 wrote:Now the Facotry Satelite, does that become Space Station Liberty in Robotech?

Nah, the factory satellite from the series got a cosmetic redesign for the aborted Robotech II: the Sentinels series... and it sort of ends up forgotten by 2029. Space Station Liberty's a separate base. Robotech has started to parrot the original Macrossseries line that there are many factory satellites. The art book for the Shadow Chronicles movie asserts that Liberty station is another factory satellite, though the visuals indicate its a human-made installation.

Warshield73 wrote:Yeah I am completely unfamiliar with any of the other lines and most of what I know of Robotech comes from Palladium or the Jack McKinley novels.

No worries, a lot of people, especially the more casual long-time fans are in that boat; the novels being a self-contained version of Robotech I've found a lot of them haven't been pulled back in to the newer stuff. Gotta watch where you get your info, though, you'll get a rather hefty dose of opinion and editorializing spiced lightly with fact depending on your source.

Warshield73 wrote: The only thing I know about is Aluce and the factory satellite where the SDF-3 was built. Now the Facotry Satelite, does that become Space Station Liberty in Robotech?

No, the new version of Robotech doesn't explain what happened to the original Fac Sat, and says that Liberty is a different Factory Satellite altogether.

The radical design differences between SSLIberty and Original Factory Satellite are too great to suggest a total rebuild of the latter into the former...and why? The sheer effort made to affect essentially cosmetic changes(so that cadets could tell at eyeball distant the difference between 'ours' and 'theirs'?) would be better spent on building more military equipment.
Of course, when you're dealing with 'we better disguise this from the lawyers', it's AMAZING to what lengths material resources will be marshalled*.

(*sidebar real-world example: In a local watershed area with public access pathways, a bicyclist was injured when she smacked into a simple drop gate bar that had been closed across one of the gravelled roadways. She successfully sued, claiming that the gate should not have been closed...,as apparently she didn't have enough time and space to see that the gate was closed and thus prevent herself from being clotheslined off her bike by it. To prevent further lawsuits the water district commission closed the area to public use, then relented, but only after installing several miles of iron fencing and remote control powered gates to control access)

I know I could be signing my own death warrant by admitting this in a Robotech forum but I am not a huge anime fan, even Robotech animated series was hard to watch on Netflix. MM makes me want to reach into ears with a pair of rusty pliers and yank my eardrums out. But, I love the story of Robotech. Zentraedi, Invid, a Earth devastated by one war after another...great stuff.

The novels are great Robotech for people that can't watch the anime.

I did remember the Jupiter base, in the old sentinels game they had a series of VAFs made there and the Gallant H-90s I believe.

I hope they give some stats and info on the off world bases in future books.

Warshield73 wrote:I know I could be signing my own death warrant by admitting this in a Robotech forum but I am not a huge anime fan, even Robotech animated series was hard to watch on Netflix. MM makes me want to reach into ears with a pair of rusty pliers and yank my eardrums out. But, I love the story of Robotech. Zentraedi, Invid, a Earth devastated by one war after another...great stuff.

The novels are great Robotech for people that can't watch the anime.

I did remember the Jupiter base, in the old sentinels game they had a series of VAFs made there and the Gallant H-90s I believe.

I hope they give some stats and info on the off world bases in future books.

The Jupiter Base references have been retconned to mean the Jupiter FLEET(Mars Fleet, Saturn Fleet, etc....) rather than base/point of origin/production, with the VAF model bearing that name being likely applied because of it constituting a major portion of the units in that fleet.

One of the more interesting fan versions of Jupiter Base made it a lash-up of old Zentraedi warship hulls, with supporting elements (mining outposts mainly) on various moons of Jupiter.

Warshield73 wrote:I know I could be signing my own death warrant by admitting this in a Robotech forum but I am not a huge anime fan, [...]

*slowly puts on his commissar cap*

HERESY! *BLAM!*

Just kidding... it's certainly not for everyone, but the content's action-figureous enough to make workable even if anime's really not your cup of tea.

Warshield73 wrote:even Robotech animated series was hard to watch on Netflix. MM makes me want to reach into ears with a pair of rusty pliers and yank my eardrums out.

Eh... to be fair, even anime fans usually find Robotech hard or impossible to watch for a variety of reasons. The most common being the (badly) rewritten story having more holes than several tonnes of swiss cheese, the dialogue being every bit awkward and dated as one would expect from a show that dates to the dark ages of dubbing, the music (especially the Minmei songs) being about as pleasant as sandblasting your eardrums, or general discontent at altering the original stories from what their creators intended. Believe me, you aren't alone in that. The original versions were a lot better on those fronts.

Warshield73 wrote:I did remember the Jupiter base, in the old sentinels game they had a series of VAFs made there and the Gallant H-90s I believe.

Aye, that's a legacy of the original source material. The New Generation was derived from Genesis Climber MOSPEADA, in which humanity's colonies in the outer solar system were trying to oust the occupying Inbit [RT: Invid] from Earth. Mars was where most of the forces seen in the series came from, but Jupiter did also have a colony and base, and supplied their own variants of the Legioss [RT: Alpha] to the invasion forces. They manufactured the AFC-01Z [RT: VF/A-6Z], the more flight-optimized version. The JB markings are still visible on the Robotech toys for same, so Jupiter Base is probably a thing still.

Warshield73 wrote:I hope they give some stats and info on the off world bases in future books.

Possibly forthcoming in the UEEF Marines books, since those are (theoretically) supplanting/replacing the old Sentinels arc books. Other than vague references, I don't think the books have done anything thus far.

Warshield73 wrote:I know I could be signing my own death warrant by admitting this in a Robotech forum but I am not a huge anime fan, even Robotech animated series was hard to watch on Netflix.

I'm not the biggest Anime fan, but I found Robotech to be a Chore until it moved past the Macross era... I loved the VF-1 and Destroids from the RPG... but the animation completely killed it for me... luckily the Later Era's were enough to save me from giving up on Robotech completely as a anime.
Literally it was 36 episodes of Torture watching Rick be a utter dirt-bag.

Colonel Wolfe wrote:

Warshield73 wrote:I know I could be signing my own death warrant by admitting this in a Robotech forum but I am not a huge anime fan, even Robotech animated series was hard to watch on Netflix.

I'm not the biggest Anime fan, but I found Robotech to be a Chore until it moved past the Macross era... I loved the VF-1 and Destroids from the RPG... but the animation completely killed it for me... luckily the Later Era's were enough to save me from giving up on Robotech completely as a anime.
Literally it was 36 episodes of Torture watching Rick be a utter dirt-bag.

I think this is why I liked the novels so much. It was just the story of Robotech, which I think is actually a good one, just the actually episodes are not so good. On the plus side Shadow Chronicles was at least watchable.

I dunno, i think all three series had pretty terrible episodes animation-wise (and editing, sound etc etc). However, the well animated episodes of Macross Saga were definately the best of the lot. Mostly i hated Dana's pink uniform. Nova's mostly made up for it, though. As much as i liked the characters in New Generation, though, i really despised the look of the ships and mecha (exception: Cyclone), especially the Beta. Though I did like how the invid looked, their design was decent for the time.

I think Robotech is probably my one exception to a very hard rule i live by: "Don't give in to nostalgia."

I know I would have them continue in service well into the Shadow Chronicles. Simply because they are a known quantity, fully understood technology, and probably economical. Maybe a fold drive is added, and maybe a fold capable ship scoops it up and drags it along. However, the ARMD make a nice stationary platform for space control with their complement of manned and unmanned craft.

You can park one over a world and base your players on it. You can have your players search one for survivors after an attack. You can have your players search one that has crashed on a planet or moon. Maybe your players are freedom fighters and your trying to get power and life support running in one as an orbital surveillance nest above the earth. Could be that some were in orbit around other planets in the solar system supporting scientific missions and deep space training exercises or telemetry missions. Can be their used as tenders now, holding consumables and munitions for active patrolling in system ships.

It is of good size to keep a squadron of veritechs on, and have an excuse for why players are on missions or the star players so often.

Alrik Vas wrote:I dunno, i think all three series had pretty terrible episodes animation-wise (and editing, sound etc etc). However, the well animated episodes of Macross Saga were definately the best of the lot. [...]

Not all that surprising, as those were the episodes Harmony Gold actually cared about... the rest was just filler to meet their episode obligation, made from copycat series that (unsuccessfully) attempted to cash in on Macross's success.

ArmySGT. wrote:I know I would have them continue in service well into the Shadow Chronicles. Simply because they are a known quantity, fully understood technology, and probably economical.

Quite... it's a shame the official material is written the way it is, since it would make a LOT of sense for there to be a fair few ARMDs in the early advance recon operations that preceded the Pioneer mission. If Tommy'd known that the ARMDs from the Macross-verse were still being used as independent warships well into the 2040s, he'd have made it true in Robotech too in a heartbeat. I think they might be a little big for the kind of "solo squadron" adventure, they carry a LOT more fighters than even an Ikazuchi-class ship.

eh, for a long range trip, using say a 'plug in' fold drive and reflex furnace module (with some extra remass tanks too, IMO) you might want to convert most of the fighter bays into cargo bays, let you carry enough supplies of food and parts to do longer missions. the ones we have are them set up for orbital and trans-lunar work. you don't need to store a lot of supplies when your in orbit and can be resupplied easily.

still, i think they'd keep several squadrons worth of fighters, and a good supply of small craft.

glitterboy2098 wrote:eh, for a long range trip, using say a 'plug in' fold drive and reflex furnace module (with some extra remass tanks too, IMO) you might want to convert most of the fighter bays into cargo bays, let you carry enough supplies of food and parts to do longer missions. the ones we have are them set up for orbital and trans-lunar work. you don't need to store a lot of supplies when your in orbit and can be resupplied easily.

still, i think they'd keep several squadrons worth of fighters, and a good supply of small craft.

If we're using RAW as any kind of yardstick, it doesn't seem to be any kind of obstacle to have both hundreds of fighters and years worth of supplies at the same time. All that's necessary appears to be switching the power system from fusion over to reflex.

i'm thinking 'supplies' in terms of food, water, and spare parts. the later ships might be able to carry tons of supplies and lots of mecha, but they were designed to do so. i doubt the ARMD's would have the room to carry nearly as much, being mainly hanger bays and weapons aboard an orbital platform that could be resupplied rapidly from earth.

Well, they're about the size of a modern day aircraft carrier, so that can be a lot of supplies even with hangar space. Isn't the crew much smaller as well? Less mouths to feed seems good. Even with what, 200+ VF pilots on board?

glitterboy2098 wrote:i know that the 1st edition RPG had an ARMD survive, but would such a thing be believable in 2nd ed?

Absolutely. An orbital base of operations would make an ideal location for a rapid response unit in addition to being excellent for maintaining the force projection capabilities of the earth government.

Alrik Vas wrote:I dunno, i think all three series had pretty terrible episodes animation-wise (and editing, sound etc etc). However, the well animated episodes of Macross Saga were definately the best of the lot.

I honestly felt that the Bad episodes of Macross made the saga nearly unwatchable... it was very inconsistent in its animation... and even caused problem with the tech displayed in the show, since there are a few episodes where the gu-11's fire lightning bolts...
New Generation had the least "bad" episodes, and over all the best animation, and the middle chapter has the hands down coolest mecha designs.


Thou with Access to multiple Factory satellites and space stations like SSL, the ARMD's are kinda puny :/
The Oberths were under armed and armoured even in 2009... I'd hate to see how the invid decimate them in the first invasion...

Seto Kaiba wrote:

ArmySGT. wrote:I know I would have them continue in service well into the Shadow Chronicles. Simply because they are a known quantity, fully understood technology, and probably economical.

Quite... it's a shame the official material is written the way it is, since it would make a LOT of sense for there to be a fair few ARMDs in the early advance recon operations that preceded the Pioneer mission. If Tommy'd known that the ARMDs from the Macross-verse were still being used as independent warships well into the 2040s, he'd have made it true in Robotech too in a heartbeat. I think they might be a little big for the kind of "solo squadron" adventure, they carry a LOT more fighters than even an Ikazuchi-class ship.

It is my impression that the majority of the fighter complement is unmanned, i.e. the QF-3000 Ghost and the Lancer II. Either of these space control fighters should chew up any Invid, if programmed correctly.

glitterboy2098 wrote:i'm thinking 'supplies' in terms of food, water, and spare parts. the later ships might be able to carry tons of supplies and lots of mecha, but they were designed to do so. i doubt the ARMD's would have the room to carry nearly as much, being mainly hanger bays and weapons aboard an orbital platform that could be resupplied rapidly from earth.

If a comparably sized ship built just a few years later can take enough supplies to stay active for years, it shouldn't be a stretch for an ARMD either once their reactors are changed out.

ArmySGT. wrote:It is my impression that the majority of the fighter complement is unmanned, i.e. the QF-3000 Ghost and the Lancer II. Either of these space control fighters should chew up any Invid, if programmed correctly.

ARMD-01 was mostly carrying QF-3000s and SF-3As, but by all accounts an ARMD is also equally able to carry hundreds of VFs with no alteration. The normal load for the majority of ARMDs in the OSM is over 260 VFs and about 70 Ghosts.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

ArmySGT. wrote:It is my impression that the majority of the fighter complement is unmanned, i.e. the QF-3000 Ghost and the Lancer II. Either of these space control fighters should chew up any Invid, if programmed correctly.

ARMD-01 was mostly carrying QF-3000s and SF-3As, but by all accounts an ARMD is also equally able to carry hundreds of VFs with no alteration. The normal load for the majority of ARMDs in the OSM is over 260 VFs and about 70 Ghosts.

Robotech, 1st Edition, page 103, A.R.M.D
Specific aircraft listed were the seventy-eight SF-3A Lancer
II and two hundred seventy "all condition, unmanned fighter QF-3000E Ghost".

Has this been changed for 2nd Edition?

ArmySGT. wrote:Robotech, 1st Edition, page 103, A.R.M.D
Specific aircraft listed were the seventy-eight SF-3A Lancer
II and two hundred seventy "all condition, unmanned fighter QF-3000E Ghost".

Has this been changed for 2nd Edition?

Yes, the human ships all got massively NERF'd in 2nd Edition. The RT2E stats are 96 Lancers and 24 VF-1 Valkyries.

The OSM spec for the earliest ARMDs was 270 QF-3000 Ghosts, 78 SF-3A Lancer IIs, and an unspecified but large number of other craft. On almost all ARMDs, there were 262 VF-1 Super Valkyries (other fighter types later), 66 Ghosts, and numerous other craft instead.

Seto Kaiba wrote:Not all that surprising, as those were the episodes Harmony Gold actually cared about... the rest was just filler to meet their episode obligation, made from copycat series that (unsuccessfully) attempted to cash in on Macross's success.

That is the biggest crock of drek I've read in a long time and that is saying alot.

Rabid Southern Cross Fan wrote:That is the biggest crock of drek I've read in a long time and that is saying alot.

I'm sorry that you find the documented facts of Robotech's origins upsetting, but I'm afraid your discontent will not make the facts any less factual.

Even Robotech Art 1 was very frank about the Robotech series being nothing more than a means to an end. Specifically, it was created at the insistence of the Revell model company, who wanted Harmony Gold to get the Super Dimension Fortress Macross TV series onto broadcast TV. Their goal was to use the series to try to salvage a failing merchandise line the company created from Macross, Orguss, and Dougram models, which was known as Robotech.

The inclusion of the latter two sagas was just a means to the end of making the Macross series long enough for first-run syndication... the actual content of the latter two sagas was largely incidental. Harmony Gold only needed them for the purpose of extending the run of Super Dimension Fortress Macross, and the other two shows were chosen because of their common licensing origin and because, as copycat shows that tried and failed to cash in on Macross's success, they had rather pronounced thematic similarities to the series Harmony Gold actually wanted to promote.

Essentially... the Masters Saga and the New Generation fit the definition of filler arcs. The whole reason they're there is to pad out the Macross original series episode count.

I dunno if any survived (though I suspect they did at least until the 2nd war), but I do know that for my Long Range Patrol game, I'm going to have a few of the colonies produce upgraded versions for colony defense bases. The plans will be available (well will be to one colony in particular), and despite their failure against a full scale invasion fleet meant to be able to take down armadas, they are pretty good at pirate interdiction and basing patrols of veritechs and space fighters for aerospace superiority of the planet. I'm going to work up one and post it in the LRP thread after I get it done. No Stats of course, but those are easy enough to figure up.

Warshield73 wrote:On the plus side Shadow Chronicles was at least watchable.

THAT my good person (since I will not assume you to be male or female ) is definitely debatable....

Alrik Vas wrote:I think Robotech is probably my one exception to a very hard rule i live by: "Don't give in to nostalgia."

Nothing wrong with that. It's why I hang on to Robotech myself.

Alrik Vas wrote:Well, they're about the size of a modern day aircraft carrier, so that can be a lot of supplies even with hangar space. Isn't the crew much smaller as well? Less mouths to feed seems good. Even with what, 200+ VF pilots on board?

Actually IIRC the ARMD are about twice as long and wide as a modern day carrier......even the Prometheus is significantly larger than modern day carriers too....

Seto Kaiba wrote:

ArmySGT. wrote:Robotech, 1st Edition, page 103, A.R.M.D
Specific aircraft listed were the seventy-eight SF-3A Lancer
II and two hundred seventy "all condition, unmanned fighter QF-3000E Ghost".

Has this been changed for 2nd Edition?

Yes, the human ships all got massively NERF'd in 2nd Edition. The RT2E stats are 96 Lancers and 24 VF-1 Valkyries.

The OSM spec for the earliest ARMDs was 270 QF-3000 Ghosts, 78 SF-3A Lancer IIs, and an unspecified but large number of other craft. On almost all ARMDs, there were 262 VF-1 Super Valkyries (other fighter types later), 66 Ghosts, and numerous other craft instead.

Also Lancer II's are not unmanned ArmySGT. They are in fact manned fighters as per the OSM.

jaymz wrote:Also Lancer II's are not unmanned ArmySGT. They are in fact manned fighters as per the OSM.

Yep, they're small, single man fighters a little bit shorter than a VF-1 Valkyrie. Pretty huge armament though.

jaymz wrote:

Seto Kaiba wrote:

ArmySGT. wrote:Robotech, 1st Edition, page 103, A.R.M.D
Specific aircraft listed were the seventy-eight SF-3A Lancer
II and two hundred seventy "all condition, unmanned fighter QF-3000E Ghost".

Has this been changed for 2nd Edition?

Yes, the human ships all got massively NERF'd in 2nd Edition. The RT2E stats are 96 Lancers and 24 VF-1 Valkyries.

The OSM spec for the earliest ARMDs was 270 QF-3000 Ghosts, 78 SF-3A Lancer IIs, and an unspecified but large number of other craft. On almost all ARMDs, there were 262 VF-1 Super Valkyries (other fighter types later), 66 Ghosts, and numerous other craft instead.

Also Lancer II's are not unmanned ArmySGT. They are in fact manned fighters as per the OSM.

Robotech, 1st Ed, Page 103.

MISCELLANEOUS EARTH SPACECRAFT
The Lancer I
There is very little actual data on this particular space vehicle, which is seen
in fleeting glances in one eqisode of the animated series. What is known is 1) It
is a space vehicle. 2) It launches 18 missiles. 3) It fires some sort of energy
weapon. 4) We have presumed that this is the Lancer I because there is definite
mention of a "manned" Lancer vehicle being part of the A.R.M.D. Space
Platform's assault fleet.
The Lancer II
We were unable to find much data, even through translations of Japanese
text, about this vehicle. The following is definite: 1) Unmanned drone. 2) Equipped
with "large-sized, twin machine (auto) cannon and targeting radar." 3) Used
solely in outer space. 4) Part of the A.R.M.D.-01-2 Space Platforms' defense,
assault system. 5) Presumably, about one dozen of these drone space cannons
were housed in each of the Armor (A.R.M.D.) Space Platforms.
The A.R.M.D. Space Platform
Our translations provided interesting fragments of data, but lacked real hard
data for such things as size, dimensions, speed and exact weapon systems. The
following data was unearthed and incorporated in the preceding text.
1) A.R.M.D.-01 (specifically) carrier spaceship. 2) 174,000 tons, operating inertial
mass. 3) Gravitational Control System of Robotech/protoculture nature.
4) Motive power system; Robotechnology, advanced heat-pile system. 5) Rocket
propelling system; Robotechnology "main nozzle cluster OTMN-3T" (2) with
Vernea Thrusters (many). 6) Robotechnology, "guided converging beam cannon
system" (5). 7) Many small sized anti-aircraft guns, six medium sized, self
guided, anti-warship, missile launchers; and two anti-planetary, anti-warship
missile launchers. 8 ) Specific aircraft listed were the seventy-eight SF-3A Lancer
II and two hundred seventy "all condition, unmanned fighter QF-3000E Ghost".
9) What I call the Space Cannon SPC-II is an unmanned drone fighter that
appears to have been used exclusively by the A.R.M.D. carrier. Exact numbers
could not be found. 10) A.R.M.D. Carrier Spaceship was developed by the
United Space Forces, Space Weapons Plant.

ArmySGT. wrote:Robotech, 1st Ed, Page 103. [...]

Unfortunately, there are a LOT of fairly major inaccuracies in that segment you quoted. The standard of research in Palladium's Robotech and Macross II was not very good... well, it wouldn't be unfair to call it abysmal.

ArmySGT. wrote:MISCELLANEOUS EARTH SPACECRAFT
The Lancer I
There is very little actual data on this particular space vehicle, which is seen
in fleeting glances in one eqisode of the animated series.

The animation model sheets for the series and the other official coverage never give mention to any craft called a "Lancer I". This part of it is pure baloney. The SF-3A Lancer II is what appears in the animation.

ArmySGT. wrote:We have presumed that this is the Lancer I because there is definite
mention of a "manned" Lancer vehicle being part of the A.R.M.D. Space
Platform's assault fleet.

The Lancer II is the design seen in the series, and its official stats indicate it has a one man crew.

ArmySGT. wrote:The following is definite: 1) Unmanned drone.

The only drone in the original Macross series is the QF-3000 Ghost. The Lancer II from the series is manned.

ArmySGT. wrote:2) Equipped
with "large-sized, twin machine (auto) cannon and targeting radar."

The OSM clearly indicates its armament is two large laser cannons and two missile launchers employing light anti-ship reaction warheads.

ArmySGT. wrote:The A.R.M.D. Space Platform
Our translations provided interesting fragments of data, but lacked real hard
data for such things as size, dimensions, speed and exact weapon systems.

Which makes one wonder what their sources were, because all that info except speed is in virtually every art book. They changed a good many instances of Overtechnology to Robotechnology, but most of that list is from Perfect Memory.

ArmySGT. wrote:9) What I call the Space Cannon SPC-II is an unmanned drone fighter that [...]

... doesn't exist.