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I know PPE has been used for a variety of things other than magic (though often similar) but haven't seen ISP put to as broad a use. I am wondering if anyone knows any examples.

One I am aware of is the Healer OCC, a Clergy class in PRPG. It has PE-based ISP (rather than ME-based ISP which psionics have) and emulates some healer psionics which (except for 1 power which costs slightly less) functions basically identically. It is explicitly non-psionic (and very different from the Psi-Healer in PRPG2nd) and available to races like the Bug Bears who cannot have psionics.

Another case would be the Mages in Mechanoid Invasion Trilogy (and their benefactors who empower them) who have mass amounts of ISP and power magic spells with ISP instead of PPE). There are normal psychics in MIT, I can't remember whether or not Mages could also be psionic. I know Healers could be both, in which case I figure you would just give them separate ISP pools for their two groups of powers.

Another case would potentially be Phase Powers. This isn't a case of 'without psionics' because those who can get them (Prometheans, Adepts, Mystics) are all psionic species or classes. But they are listed separately, and since it is a "mystic" class listed in Book of Magic, something has to be magical in there. Which makes me think that Phase Powers could be closer to magic than psionics, in spite of (I think) having taken the same amount of time to activate (not as big a deal now since RUE boosted casting speed) and having the same fuel source (definitely a shared ISP pool in this case) is the similarity to temporal magic which Prometheans (but not Phase Mystics) could also select.

A fourth example that comes to mind is one 'Gift of Power' option available to the Witch OCC to "add to ISP". Would this be something that someone who didn't already have ISP be allowed to select? I imagine most wouldn't since it wouldn't be that useful, since it couldn't power anything, but maybe it could be useful for powering TW devices? The gift of PPE is greater, but since you can't select the PPE gift twice (presumably) it'd be the only way to get extra TW ammo.

Speaking of Mystics or TWs, in CB1 it has OCC descriptions for certain races who have psionics listed as 'none' which indicates being able to get those OCCs. Would a race who gets that OCC be able to get the ISP which either magical occupation instills? The powers too?
*Trolls (Pg 92) can't be Mind Melters, but Bursters, Mystics and TWs aren't excluded.
*Basilisks (pg 120) can be TWs as adults, and hatchlings are allowed to select a magical OCC without any notes of excluding Mystics.
*Gromeks (pg 136) can be "any of the practitioners of magic"

Outside CB1 I'm guessing there are examples of other non-psionic races like this which either aren't explicitly excluded from some OCC which, if not in the psionic category (previously listed as RCCs) are those with inherent psionics or a unique chance at rolling them. I know there's a Techno-Wizard god or two in CB2 which either lacked psionics altogether or lacked the powers all TWs get, so how to treat a Basilisk TW is a bit confusing.

well some of that is just simplicity. Its easier to say 'can be any magic class' and just skip the psi if your race cant have them (Nightbane/spawn come to mind). Trolls in Rifts are not banned from having psi (this is different than the PF trolls, but meh).

As for using ISP for stuff that is not strictly psi. ISP seems to be what it says on the box Inner Strength Points, i.e. what powers 'internal' stuff. Thus it powers 1st ed. PF Healers, Phase Powers, Rifts Chinese 'chi' powers, and other stuff that is in the 'mystical but not magic' category of ability

This of course is my own, personal opinion, and is not meant to be in any way definitive.

CB1 does say psionics: none for trolls, though. It's just confusing that they explicitly deny the Mind Melter but no other OCCs with psychic abilities. They could have said 'no RCCs' or 'no classes with psionics' or something along those lines.

If something lists "none" under the psionics listing in their race description, they cannot have psionics. If they can learn magic, there is nothing stopping them from being a Mystic but they still can't have any psionic powers. Either they are a Mystic with no psionics, or you could port the rules for the Dewtani to other races and give them an extra spell when they level as compensation.
This is just my opinion but I wouldn't even allow such a race to take any ISP fueled abilities such as the mystic martial arts abilities in China 2. Although they aren't psionic in nature, I'd still rule them a no go just for the sake of simplicity.
I'm not sure if this is something you are interested in as per your OP but Rifter 50 has "Latent Psychics" in an official article relating to Chaos Earth. They are Psychics that haven't developed their psionic potential. They get some constant bonuses that are always in effect and require no ISP to use, they do however get an ISP pool that they don't really use for anything.

The Psi-Mystic PCC is the only correctly labeled listing of the Mystic class, in my reading of the class texts.
(iIn other words, the PF2 class is the only labeling that does not conform to a "style filter".)

Stepping aside from my that,
A mystic char from a race that can not have psi would follow the form of the NightSpawn/-Bane Mystic, omitting ALL the class psi-abilitiyes.

Drew if a magical OCC having psionics meant it had to be a PCC, wouldn't this also apply to the Techno-Wizard or Cybermage? Or are you only applying this to those who learn magic intuitively and can't purchase knowledge?

In that case, wouldn't the Channeler OCC in TTGD also be a PCC? Yet it isn't, in a system that does include PCCs.

In regard to Nightbane, they are able to get Talents instead of Psionics, so maybe that's why they're not there.

Giant2005 wrote:If something lists "none" under the psionics listing in their race description, they cannot have psionics.

Couldn't it instead mean that they can't roll them randomly, but could acquire them through training or other means?

For example becoming a Witch OCC can provide psychic abilities. Or they can be rolled alongside super powers. I think the use of 'none' in place of 'standard' or otherwise could simply mean a lack of random chance, not an absolute inability.

Tor wrote:Drew if a magical OCC having psionics meant it had to be a PCC, wouldn't this also apply to the Techno-Wizard or Cybermage? Or are you only applying this to those who learn magic intuitively and can't purchase knowledge?

In that case, wouldn't the Channeler OCC in TTGD also be a PCC? Yet it isn't, in a system that does include PCCs.

In regard to Nightbane, they are able to get Talents instead of Psionics, so maybe that's why they're not there.
...snip

If you are going to rant because of the "style filters" then focus your rant at who created/uses them, Kevin S. He even admitted that they are in place in the Rifts and BTS settings in RUE.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Tor wrote:Drew if a magical OCC having psionics meant it had to be a PCC, wouldn't this also apply to the Techno-Wizard or Cybermage? Or are you only applying this to those who learn magic intuitively and can't purchase knowledge?

In that case, wouldn't the Channeler OCC in TTGD also be a PCC? Yet it isn't, in a system that does include PCCs.

In regard to Nightbane, they are able to get Talents instead of Psionics, so maybe that's why they're not there.
...snip

If you are going to rant because of the "style filters" then focus your rant at who created/uses them, Kevin S. He even admitted that they are in place in the Rifts and BTS settings in RUE.

Lets not drag this into that old circular argument please.

What's all this about style filters now?

The books have made it clear that PCCs and even RCCs are a type of OCC. =/

Tor wrote:What's all this about style filters now?

The books have made it clear that PCCs and even RCCs are a type of OCC. =/

Yes, that is what the Style Filter that was imposed with RUE on the Rifts setting says.

The Style Filter that is imposed on BTS says that all CC's are PCC's.

Both of these Style Filters were acknowledged by KS in RUE where it talks about why they did not use the PCC term in RUE. This is why I said to direct your rants at the one who imposed the Style Filters. If you don't even want to acknowledge this Fact, then you have the freedom to do that...just to bad mouth those who bring up this fact as if they are stupid for believing KS when he said that there are style filters.

Okay...so dropping the rant about if/what is a P/R/O.C.C. in RUE and what was intended or not by said author or not.....anyone got anything on the actual topic?