Human pilots and invid mecha

[glitterboy2098]

ok, while most invid mecha are 'worn' rather than piloted by their invid pilots, obviously the Commander and Overlord types use a more conventional piloted set up. so my question is.. could a human (or zent or tirolian) character learn to pilot one of those invid mecha? we'll ignore the RAW limitations on whether a class can learn new mecha skills for the moment, and focus entirely on the "can they learn invid mecha skills if they aren't invid?"

[sirkermittsg]

from my perspective: in the show we have several examples of other races learning other race's mecha. Myria Sterling piloted Valkyries, Zor Prime piloted Hovertanks, Rick hunter piloted a Zentraedi battlepod. I don't see why a non invid cant learn to pilot one of their craft. I say this especially because the overlord specifically is based upon the beta to some extent and has a aircraft mode.

[Colonel Wolfe]

Easily, they look to have joysticks and seam to utilize compatible radio technology

[jaymz]

Let us not forget they DID show Rem flying/piloting an Invid Trooper in the Sentinels video.

[glitterboy2098]

some screencaps for reference..

http://www.robotechresearch.com/picture ... _large.jpg

http://www.robotechresearch.com/picture ... _large.jpg

http://www.robotechresearch.com/picture ... _large.jpg

it's hard to tell if that is a conventional control set up or if it uses some sort of exotic interface as well.

Let us not forget they DID show Rem flying/piloting an Invid Trooper in the Sentinels video.

i'm discounting that. for two reasons. 1st, the Prelude comics change enough about the war with the regent to make the events of the Sentinels video of questionable canon, and 2nd, we can't discount the "starbuck in a Raider" scenario where he was just triggering responses by playing around with the interface parts.

either way, he didn't really pilot it, he just sorta made it fly forward a bit. not exactly an example of learning to pilot an invid mecha.

[Jefffar]

Let's keep this one on topic please.

[jaymz]

My apologies Jefffar.

As for the topic, even if we DON'T take the Sentinels video into account, the higher stage mecha would require at least rudimentary controls since their pilots are essentially human thus allowing humans to pilot them, though I would say at only a basic level at best.

[Protoculture]

Well, RT II: The Sentinels is atleast quasi-canon. We do see Rem piloted a Gurab. Although, that opens up a question, where the hell is the Invid pilot of said mecha?

Now another can of worms .... the Regent's Gosamu (Overlord) mecha (or power armour?) in PTTSC. Overlord variable mecha first introduced in RT: Invasion console game, as a latecomer and a prototype unit designed by Regess for her Solugi humanoid Invid. The Gosamu's cockpit should very much mimicked that of Gosu, so given Regent's height, he should not fit into his Gosamu.

Unless his Gosamu is a one off customised power armour reserved for him with no transformable capabilities. I mean, his Gosamu power armour cockpit should differs from Regess' Gosamu prototypes designed to accommodate Solugi Invids. We do know from RT II: Sentinels that Regent commissioned a Red Malar Power Armours into his horde that are twice the size of regular grey Malars.

[Lt Gargoyle]

I would say yes that the other humannoid races could learn to pilot the invid Mecha of the Prince/princess or stage 5 invid. However there is likely gonna be penalties for it. I am not sure if the invid use true radio communication in their mecha, because of the hive mind telepathy thing. However i am positive that they have the technology to use it since the Regent rescuse Edwards, or at least assisted in his escape from tirol.

the evidence in the show show that both Sera and Corg used hand controls to move thier mecha. so anyone can learn it given time and a save place to practice piloting.

[Colonel Wolfe]

In Scott's and corgs final battle they banter back and forth that alone makes me think the invid haxve access to radio technology used by the

[Jefffar]

In the Macross Saga we had Ben, Max and Rick pilot a Battle Pod at Lisa's instruction and we had Miyria pilot a Valkyrie.

In the Master's Saga we had Zor learn to pilot a Spartas

In the Sentinels (no longer official) we had Rem pilot (barely) an Invid mecha.

So I'd say there's plenty of precedent for learning to operate the other guy's stuff.

[ShadowLogan]

ok, while most invid mecha are 'worn' rather than piloted by their invid pilots, obviously the Commander and Overlord types use a more conventional piloted set up. so my question is.. could a human (or zent or tirolian) character learn to pilot one of those invid mecha? we'll ignore the RAW limitations on whether a class can learn new mecha skills for the moment, and focus entirely on the "can they learn invid mecha skills if they aren't invid?"

I would have to say yes (for any of the mecha, since Power Armor/Bioroids are "worn" as opposed to piloted) it is possible. However the control setup is going to be very different, and would definitely require a separate skill.

While the RCB controls can be referenced in the show seem to be nestled in the seat armrests (or off to the side, sort half-globe/trackball like), almost acting as if it was modeled after the Masters Mushroom interface rather than traditional controls as seen in a few episodes ("Midnight Sun", "Dark Finale" for sure). Yes I realize the RCB has the VHT like Yoke interface infront of the pilot, and shots do suggest (based on angle) they are used, they may be limited to secondary functions or merely some type of Invid display for gauges.

The RCB may indicate how controls are in the other mecha too, so what would apply to one would apply to them all unless the Invid altered their control interface for this one instance.

There are a few unanswered questions that may turn this into a NO however and answers may vary from GM to GM:
1. Do the mecha use some type of ID system to limit user access? No Invid is shown to trade mecha, just trade up w/n the 85ep. Sent. OVA would suggest no to this, but if that is not being considered...

2. Do the controls have psychic requirement (like the Mechanoids, and IIRC the Vernulians in Rifts line), as the Invid do seem to have some degree of Psychic abilities (telepathy and empathy within their race) which may factor into their technology? That would rule out most humans in RAW, though not Tirolians (if they have the same Psychic range as the Invid, at minimum they do).

[SRoss]

I think the problem would be that you'd have the basic controls, but you'd have no communications or standard instrumentation?

[Kagashi]

I'd say anything is possible. I still consider source type aspects in Sentinels to be canon. We see Rem fly the Shock Trooper with extremely basic capability. He at least figured out (quickly) how to fly in a straight line, and be able to land the craft in once piece, accurately striking the cougar accosting Cabell at the same time.

That being said, Bioroids have psychic connections and Triolians have basic psychic abilities (I think...dont have my RPG books with me ATM to confirm that...but I do seem to remember pilots being all balled up in the pilots compartment...obviously not sitting in a seat like Human mecha and vehicles are designed, so I assume there is some sort of tele-mechanic link or something). Since Rem is a clone of Zor Prime, he likely had already known how to pilot Bioroids. Invid also have limited psionics (psychic connections to the Regis/Regent for example). Its possible that the lower caste Inivd mecha are at least partially psychically controlled and Rem was able to pilot the craft that way.

If that is correct, Id say psychic characters have a greater chance of piloting the Invid Mecha than non-psychic characters who are limited by physical means and mentality. But really, Im thinking out loud. Take it as you will.

[glitterboy2098]

given that most invid mecha are biological constructs, they might not be piloted so much as merge with the pilot.. kinda like host armor in splicers. a typical invid trooper or scout might have more in common with the Cylon Raider's from BSG than say the Alpha.

but the commander battloid and the overlord have a cockpit type set up, and obviously use some kind of controls for operation instead of direct physical links. they are also more likely to be the kind of mecha a human/tirolian/zent could get their hands on somehow. (i just don't think it likely that many scouts/troopers would have human compatible cockpits installed and used.)


this question came to mind recently due to events in the ongoing robotech game on fridays.. we'll be infiltrating an invid hive soon, and our group's renegade invid princess may have a chance to hijack a mecha in the process. (certainly we'll want to, since we're short on supplies and gear, with no mecha of our own at the moment. [long story]). which might leave us with a space mecha, most likely a commander battloid. since several of our members are lacking mecha right now anyway (most of us are near level up), keeping the invid one around and training our extra members to use it would be nice. (hmm.. need to check to see if we salvaged the mind impulse system from the destroyed IMU..)

[taalismn]

Rem's 'piloting' was more akin to touching nerves in a dissected frog, but the later more sophisticated Invid mecha have to compensate for the more independent-minded evolved Invid, who, ironically, may not be able to take advantage of effective submersion in a bio/hive link by virtue of their different brain construction. Hence, more conventional controls(not wholly 'dead', but still a lot more 'hands on' than 'plugged in'.

The inclusion of human-band radio communications might be another concession to that divergence from Invid hive-networking, and copied from Human mecha. It won't surprise me, though, if a creatively nasty Invid militarist like Corg figured out he could listen to Human open communications with it, if only to taunt his victims as he killed them.

[ShadowLogan]

That being said, Bioroids have psychic connections and Triolians have basic psychic abilities (I think...dont have my RPG books with me ATM to confirm that...but I do seem to remember pilots being all balled up in the pilots compartment...

Bioroids do not have a psychic connection, the Bioroid mecha and pilot communicate via implants (Biological diodes). Triolians do have some psychic abilities, but only in the Sensitive category, nothing from the Physical or Super (PB classification of powers) that would allow them to pilot the mecha at this time.

Since Rem is a clone of Zor Prime, he likely had already known how to pilot Bioroids.

Rem is not a clone of Zor Prime, they are both clones of the original Zor and are not the only Zor clones created. They do appear to be the only two clones that are fleshed out in the story. The Masters have 14 developing clones of Zor per story dialogue, and had experimented on at least two more per story dialogue/activities.

given that most invid mecha are biological constructs, they might not be piloted so much as merge with the pilot.. kinda like host armor in splicers. a typical invid trooper or scout might have more in common with the Cylon Raider's from BSG than say the Alpha.

Nothing really prevents the Human-looking Invid from merging with mecha, since they still retain their telepathic link to the Invid. That telepathic link to the mecha may require a physical connection (Vulcan "Mind Meld" instead of telepathy at a distance) so the mecha doesn't pick up stray telepathic commands from other Invid.

While the non-human looking Invid operate inside a pool of fluid, the fluid appears to have little to do with operation of the controls and everything to do with biology (TSC pg17m #10&#11 features). That would make any controls for the mecha submerged in "The Fortress" when we look in on the Trooper. In fact "The Fortress" shows Urban Enforcer/Solider mecha in the "Brain Room" at stations with human-like controls.

[Rimmerdal]

I'd say anything is possible. I still consider source type aspects in Sentinels to be canon. We see Rem fly the Shock Trooper with extremely basic capability. He at least figured out (quickly) how to fly in a straight line, and be able to land the craft in once piece, accurately striking the cougar accosting Cabell at the same time.

That being said, Bioroids have psychic connections and Triolians have basic psychic abilities (I think...dont have my RPG books with me ATM to confirm that...but I do seem to remember pilots being all balled up in the pilots compartment...obviously not sitting in a seat like Human mecha and vehicles are designed, so I assume there is some sort of tele-mechanic link or something). Since Rem is a clone of Zor Prime, he likely had already known how to pilot Bioroids. Invid also have limited psionics (psychic connections to the Regis/Regent for example). Its possible that the lower caste Inivd mecha are at least partially psychically controlled and Rem was able to pilot the craft that way.

If that is correct, Id say psychic characters have a greater chance of piloting the Invid Mecha than non-psychic characters who are limited by physical means and mentality. But really, Im thinking out loud. Take it as you will.

Would agree as the sensor data would likely be fed to the pilot via telepathy rather than a instrument. Sort of like becomeing one with the Mecha. The Invid would likely be unnerved by the lack of telepathic link as well.

[MilkManX]

As far as Invid Mecha go the only ones I would let my PC's try to fly would be the Commander Mecha. The other ones are all designed for the slug type Invid and they sit in those goup tanks.

[Rimmerdal]

So if the invid mecha gets damaged would an Invid pilot feel pain?

[silvermoon383]

I doubt very much that humans/Zentradi/Tirolians would be able to pilot Invid mech. Several reasons:

1. If Sera and Corg's transmutation is the process for how all humanoid Invid and Commander/Overlord mecha are created, then you have each humanoid Invid being created at the same time as their mecha, and both are created from an already existing Invid/mecha combo (Enforcers in Sera and Corg's case). While I don't use this to preclude the idea that Invid pilots could swap mecha if they wanted to, it suggests to me that there aren't any spares just lying around waiting (though if an Invid were to lose their mecha I'm sure the Regess would replace it.)

2. Invid mecha are controlled in a vastly different method than the other's mecha. Human and Zentradi mecha are controlled via traditional hand and foot controls while Tirolian are controlled via thought (with the exception of the hovercraft, they are controlled via the handlebars). Watching LLA recently I saw a clip showing how Sera controlled her Commander during the Battle of Reflex Point: she would manipulate two small domes on the front of the "dashboard". With no other controls visible or shown that suggests to me that the Invid Overlords and Commanders are controlled with touch-derived thought control. Another example of that I can think of is the Ancient control chairs in Stargate SG-1 and Atlantis. While they do have a control pad in each arm, the chair won't respond to anyone without the Ancient gene and a focused concentration on the chair's operation.

[ShadowLogan]

While I don't use this to preclude the idea that Invid pilots could swap mecha if they wanted to, it suggests to me that there aren't any spares just lying around waiting (though if an Invid were to lose their mecha I'm sure the Regess would replace it.)

The Invid do store mecha w/o pilots. Review the episode "The Fortress", mecha and pilot are not put in stasis together, so uncrewed mecha do exist. Granted these aren't for Slogi/Stage5, but at that point in time said mecha are not known to be part of the Invid inventory.

keeping the invid one around and training our extra members to use it would be nice

There may be a problem here. The Invid pilot the RCB/OL on an instinctive level according to NG SB of the RCC (it is even mentioned w/re Ariel's ability). Can you really teach someone how to do something that is done on an instinctive level like that? (especially if the instinctive ability is the result of biology the humans do not have)

If you are looking to give the party mecha, you could have more traditional designs for the intended users inside the hive for study (IMU, regular, or just parts to forge functioning units from at a later time/place).

[FreelancerMar]

I would say that Invid Mecha are at least partially controlled by PSI inputs. This would prevent full functional of non-invid pilots. It is possible that a hybred human-invid could learn how to master invid mecha units.