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Tor wrote:Palladium isn't entirely consistent about what psi-swords are... like in spite of being an energy-ish weapon I think I recall somewhere it mentioning adding a PS bonus.

I think unless magic/psi says it can effect intangible (or if it's of an element that can, like electrokinesis) that we shouldn't assume it does though.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Tor wrote:Palladium isn't entirely consistent about what psi-swords are... like in spite of being an energy-ish weapon I think I recall somewhere it mentioning adding a PS bonus.

I think unless magic/psi says it can effect intangible (or if it's of an element that can, like electrokinesis) that we shouldn't assume it does though.

Psi-Swords affect vampires, were-creatures, and invulnerable characters.
Normal rules don't seem to apply to them.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Psi-Swords affect vampires, were-creatures, and invulnerable characters. Normal rules don't seem to apply to them.

Grand Paladin wrote:Particle beam weapons have historically been able to harm a person that has the innate ability to become intangible. This is presented in HU, HU2 if I recall correctly.

Rimmerdal wrote:

Grand Paladin wrote:Particle beam weapons have historically been able to harm a person that has the innate ability to become intangible. This is presented in HU, HU2 if I recall correctly.

Never spotted that. but makes sens as that would agitate and or disrupt molecules and its an energy weapon so a laser or other types of energy that disrupt molecules should have some effect..green lasers used underwater might even work.

Funkmaster G wrote:My primary PC is a Psi-Ghost. This forum keeps my up at night

flatline wrote:

Rimmerdal wrote:

Grand Paladin wrote:Particle beam weapons have historically been able to harm a person that has the innate ability to become intangible. This is presented in HU, HU2 if I recall correctly.

Never spotted that. but makes sens as that would agitate and or disrupt molecules and its an energy weapon so a laser or other types of energy that disrupt molecules should have some effect..green lasers used underwater might even work.

I think that it's Invulnerability that particle beams are oddly effective against. It's my understanding that particle beams are just another energy attack in regards to Intangibility.

--flatline

Rifts Conversioin Book 1, p.47 wrote:However, the intangible character is still vulnerable to all electrical, accelerated particle beams, and sonic blasts, which stimulate and agitate molecules inflicting half damage. Psionics and gases also have full effect.

Rimmerdal wrote:How many ways can you kill an intangible target?

ShadowLogan wrote:

Rimmerdal wrote:How many ways can you kill an intangible target?

It depends on the source of intangibility you are referring to. The Super/Mutant power approach, or something like Astral Projection on the physical plane. It looks like the Super/Mutant power and not the Astral Projection (which has certain drawbacks not present in SP, but has other advantages).

Aside from waiting them out as they have to eat/drink and sleep at some point you mean. At which point you can poison them, or other underhanded or direct attacks.

Negate Super Powers type powers/abilities (Anti-magic cloud, Psi-Nullifier, etc) would turn them tangible and return them to full vulnerability if the two powers can interact on the same level (SP vs SP, Magic vs Magic, etc).

Psionic:
Bio-manipulation (can target their HP for a draining attack)
Hypnotic Suggestion (turn off power)
tk punch/kick (at reduced damage sense some of the attack is psionic energy and physical based)
Astral Project on the physical plane (both are now in intangible states, however the Psionic one isn't as vulnerable in some respects, but more vulnerable in others) MIGHT allow one to engage in hand to hand combat
Mind Bolt (psionic energy)
Telekenetically hold them underwater (or similar) so they can't breathe

Gravity Manipulation (Tech or Magic or Super Power) to send them floating off (if they can't fly) into the air, at some point they may lose consciousness and become tangible and fall to their death

Vacuum/non-breathable air. This probably can be thought of as a variant of poison gas.

Petrification/Turn to "substance" like the Gorgon might still qualify as effecting them making them physical at which point you can smash them.

TW/Magic/Technology based weapon specifically intended to attack intangible targets might also work (don't know of any specific examples, Phase Weaponry might qualify), though may be limited to the basis for intangibility (Astral Projection, Super Power, etc).

Teleport/Rift them to a hostile environment that their power is no help in, this assumes you can target them with said ability.

Temporal Trap, freeze them in time. If it can be maintained (say a Ley Line Powered Device holding everyone/thing in a certain radius in the grasp of a Time Slip hold) it would take them out of the picture for some time (effectively killing them until released by some means).

EDIT: forgot to add Exposure to Lethal Amounts of Radiation.

Rimmerdal wrote:

Grand Paladin wrote:Particle beam weapons have historically been able to harm a person that has the innate ability to become intangible. This is presented in HU, HU2 if I recall correctly.

Never spotted that. but makes sens as that would agitate and or disrupt molecules and its an energy weapon so a laser or other types of energy that disrupt molecules should have some effect..green lasers used underwater might even work.

Rappanui wrote:Intangible Characters in HU are Impervious to Elemental/Energy attacks.

Captain Shiva wrote:I ran a Rifts campaign several years ago with a Ps-Ghost PC. I made up this house rule: if you are intangible, you can not directly affect the physical world. No "I turn intangible, walk up to the CS soldier, and use TK to pull the pins on all his grenades. And you can't use Bio-Manipulation while intangible, either." This pretty much limits things to the use of Sensitive category powers.

Captain Shiva wrote:I ran a Rifts campaign several years ago with a Ps-Ghost PC. I made up this house rule: if you are intangible, you can not directly affect the physical world. No "I turn intangible, walk up to the CS soldier, and use TK to pull the pins on all his grenades. And you can't use Bio-Manipulation while intangible, either." This pretty much limits things to the use of Sensitive category powers.

Tor wrote:

Rimmerdal wrote:

Grand Paladin wrote:Particle beam weapons have historically been able to harm a person that has the innate ability to become intangible. This is presented in HU, HU2 if I recall correctly.

Never spotted that. but makes sens as that would agitate and or disrupt molecules and its an energy weapon so a laser or other types of energy that disrupt molecules should have some effect..green lasers used underwater might even work.

Particle beams are especially interesting in Nightbane. CJ introduced special notes on how with different strike rolls it can do different amounts of damage. Sadly did not make it into other products.

Rappanui wrote:Intangible Characters in HU are Impervious to Elemental/Energy attacks.

Not sure what you mean by this. Fire/Electricity are both considered energy attacks and inflict 3/10 dmg to Intangible bros.

Captain Shiva wrote:I ran a Rifts campaign several years ago with a Ps-Ghost PC. I made up this house rule: if you are intangible, you can not directly affect the physical world. No "I turn intangible, walk up to the CS soldier, and use TK to pull the pins on all his grenades. And you can't use Bio-Manipulation while intangible, either." This pretty much limits things to the use of Sensitive category powers.

Sounds lame, no feasible reason for those limitations to exist. Plenty of other ways to deal with intangibles. Since they can't bring armor along and are SDC, a single MD blast of plasma, or a Zapper, could 1-hit them.

Rappanui wrote:ok.. Checking up on the power, Seems that it's gained a slew of vulnerabilities since the revised days. as for the psi ghost not being able to bring armor. Not true, just has to be Skin tight and under the 20lb limit.

Rimmerdal wrote:

Captain Shiva wrote:I ran a Rifts campaign several years ago with a Ps-Ghost PC. I made up this house rule: if you are intangible, you can not directly affect the physical world. No "I turn intangible, walk up to the CS soldier, and use TK to pull the pins on all his grenades. And you can't use Bio-Manipulation while intangible, either." This pretty much limits things to the use of Sensitive category powers.

Not a bad rule. keeps it safe and balanced. they can't hurt you..you can't hurt them. I do have one question would prowl skill work with going tangible near a target? I wold sneak up intangible to an ambush spot then hit him..and after the hit re intangible.

Tor wrote:

Rimmerdal wrote:

Grand Paladin wrote:Particle beam weapons have historically been able to harm a person that has the innate ability to become intangible. This is presented in HU, HU2 if I recall correctly.

Never spotted that. but makes sens as that would agitate and or disrupt molecules and its an energy weapon so a laser or other types of energy that disrupt molecules should have some effect..green lasers used underwater might even work.

Particle beams are especially interesting in Nightbane. CJ introduced special notes on how with different strike rolls it can do different amounts of damage. Sadly did not make it into other products.

Rappanui wrote:Intangible Characters in HU are Impervious to Elemental/Energy attacks.

Not sure what you mean by this. Fire/Electricity are both considered energy attacks and inflict 3/10 dmg to Intangible bros.

Captain Shiva wrote:I ran a Rifts campaign several years ago with a Ps-Ghost PC. I made up this house rule: if you are intangible, you can not directly affect the physical world. No "I turn intangible, walk up to the CS soldier, and use TK to pull the pins on all his grenades. And you can't use Bio-Manipulation while intangible, either." This pretty much limits things to the use of Sensitive category powers.

Sounds lame, no feasible reason for those limitations to exist. Plenty of other ways to deal with intangibles. Since they can't bring armor along and are SDC, a single MD blast of plasma, or a Zapper, could 1-hit them.

Rimmerdal wrote:NG has a a stealth suit that is MDC. its in Merc ops.

Rimmerdal wrote:the rules also do not say they can't wear TW either...so armour is less an issue than you think.

Rimmerdal wrote:

Rappanui wrote:has to be Skin tight and under the 20lb limit.

the NG stealth suit is 12 pounds so that with TW enhancemenst is a nice suit.

Captain Shiva wrote:Why do you say "lame?"

Captain Shiva wrote:I came up with these rules to make Psi-Ghosts difficult,but not impossible, to kill.

Captain Shiva wrote:I see nothing to indicate that MD plasma could harm them while intangible.If you think I am wrong,please tell of the book and page number that indicates otherwise.

Sir_Spirit wrote:Dark blades can cut intangible supers, in the GM guide for,HU.

Tor wrote:The thing is, let's say I have a TW lightning rod (1d6 MD). It wouldn't pose a major threat to any decent armor, even this kind, right?

But if the armor is turned intangible, it won't impede my lightning rod... so I can stab it right through your intangible armor and hit both it AND you, right? Much like a phase sword does to material things.

So how would it protect the person?

If it was just a lightning bolt I might buy it, but not a physical instrument of electricity.

Tor wrote:

Rimmerdal wrote:NG has a a stealth suit that is MDC. its in Merc ops.

I assume it's under the 20lb weight limit of what Psi-Ghosts can bring along? I overlooked this, I think I was mixing up my ideas about astral projections with intangibility, since astral bros can't usually bring armor, especially into the material plane.

Rimmerdal wrote:the rules also do not say they can't wear TW either...so armour is less an issue than you think.

Rimmerdal wrote:

Rappanui wrote:has to be Skin tight and under the 20lb limit.

the NG stealth suit is 12 pounds so that with TW enhancemenst is a nice suit.

Captain Shiva wrote:Why do you say "lame?"

Captain Shiva wrote:I came up with these rules to make Psi-Ghosts difficult,but not impossible, to kill.

Captain Shiva wrote:I see nothing to indicate that MD plasma could harm them while intangible.If you think I am wrong,please tell of the book and page number that indicates otherwise.

Sir_Spirit wrote:Dark blades can cut intangible supers, in the GM guide for,HU.

Captain Shiva wrote:

Tor wrote:

Rimmerdal wrote:NG has a a stealth suit that is MDC. its in Merc ops.

I assume it's under the 20lb weight limit of what Psi-Ghosts can bring along? I overlooked this, I think I was mixing up my ideas about astral projections with intangibility, since astral bros can't usually bring armor, especially into the material plane.

I'm still left wondering how intangible armor functions. Would intangible environmental armor stop gas from entering the blood stream? If lightning swords go right through the character then would the armor even stop it?
If you are intangible, then so is your EBA. The gasses would then have normal effect. The lightning sword would pass right through the armor. A possible house rule would be to have SDC electricity do normal damage, and MDC electricity do double normal HP/SDC damage.

Rimmerdal wrote:the rules also do not say they can't wear TW either...so armour is less an issue than you think.

I have less problems thinking 'armor of ithan is magic so it protects you' I guess since it doesn't rely on interpreting technology's physics and how it changes while intangible, I suppose.
Machines do not function while intangible, but TW machines do not operate like normal machines, so a case could be made that they could still work.

Rimmerdal wrote:

Rappanui wrote:has to be Skin tight and under the 20lb limit.

the NG stealth suit is 12 pounds so that with TW enhancemenst is a nice suit.

I'm still left wondering "if I can walk through a TW lightning sword, how does my armor stop the lightning sword from shocking my liver?" I guess.

It's one thing to divert a pure energy blast, I guess, but when an energy attack is channeled through a physical object, I think that raises questions about how effective normal armor is at protecting when it loses tangibility.

Captain Shiva wrote:Why do you say "lame?"

Disabling things like TK while intangibility removes interesting assassination options for them, something I think as super-spies they're well-primed to do.
Ghostly assassins are deadly indeed; all the more reason to try to keep them from completely unbalancing the game.

Captain Shiva wrote:I came up with these rules to make Psi-Ghosts difficult,but not impossible, to kill.

Removing TK for intangibles doesn't make them harder to kill, it makes them less efficient killers.
I believe you misinterpreted my post. My point was that Psi-Ghosts can be very formidable adversaries, and by placing a few reasonable limitations on them, you might avoid completely screwing up the game.

Captain Shiva wrote:I see nothing to indicate that MD plasma could harm them while intangible.If you think I am wrong,please tell of the book and page number that indicates otherwise.

This relies on the interpretation that plasma is a form of fire and heat, which intangibles are harmed by, in HU.

While distinction is made between Flame and Plasma (different APS powers) a plasma bolt is described as a "flaming bolt" which lights flammable materials, and APSplasma as a "fiery energy being", Melt Obstacles describes it as 'heat' and 'burning'. Maybe the distinction is it's some other form of gas whereas 'fire' is burning oxygen?

Psyscape only mentions their vulnerability to electricity, of course. We could interpret that as a different version of the power and not apply HU errata to it.
Point taken. Thank you for bringing that to my attention. How foolish of me, to expect consistency from Palladium.

Sir_Spirit wrote:Dark blades can cut intangible supers, in the GM guide for,HU.

Cool, I guess they share similar properties to Rune Weapons, much like Artifacts. I assume Magic Weapons from HU would also cut them then? MWs and Artifacts have intelligences in them like Rune Weapons, unlike dark blades.

If you are intangible, then so is your EBA. The gasses would then have normal effect. The lightning sword would pass right through the armor. A possible house rule would be to have SDC electricity do normal damage, and MDC electricity do double normal HP/SDC damage.

Tor wrote:Happens to the best of us... lesse if I can pick out what you wrote...

If you are intangible, then so is your EBA. The gasses would then have normal effect. The lightning sword would pass right through the armor. A possible house rule would be to have SDC electricity do normal damage, and MDC electricity do double normal HP/SDC damage.

It might be okay to rule that magical protections (or psionic ones) remain intact at least since they're all non-physical and such. MD electricity shouldn't really get reduced (besides the standard 1/2ing) so as to give some incentive to a Psi-Ghost to say, learn Electrokinesis themself, or get a TW device that bestows Impervious to Energy...

It occurs to me a Psi-Ghost could actually go intangible while bringig a TW lightning rod along with them, no? This would protect them against electric attacks...

Which begs the question... if I stab a SAMAS with my intangible lightning rod, does it go right through the armor yet shock the person inside?

I mean, you have to figure, if tangible electricity does half damage to intangibles, then intangible electricity should do half damage to tangibles. It's only fair.

Captain Shiva wrote:

Tor wrote:Happens to the best of us... lesse if I can pick out what you wrote...

If you are intangible, then so is your EBA. The gasses would then have normal effect. The lightning sword would pass right through the armor. A possible house rule would be to have SDC electricity do normal damage, and MDC electricity do double normal HP/SDC damage.

It might be okay to rule that magical protections (or psionic ones) remain intact at least since they're all non-physical and such. MD electricity shouldn't really get reduced (besides the standard 1/2ing) so as to give some incentive to a Psi-Ghost to say, learn Electrokinesis themself, or get a TW device that bestows Impervious to Energy...

It occurs to me a Psi-Ghost could actually go intangible while bringig a TW lightning rod along with them, no? This would protect them against electric attacks...

Which begs the question... if I stab a SAMAS with my intangible lightning rod, does it go right through the armor yet shock the person inside?

I mean, you have to figure, if tangible electricity does half damage to intangibles, then intangible electricity should do half damage to tangibles. It's only fair.

And yet another can of worms is opened.

Rimmerdal wrote:

Captain Shiva wrote:

Tor wrote:Happens to the best of us... lesse if I can pick out what you wrote...

If you are intangible, then so is your EBA. The gasses would then have normal effect. The lightning sword would pass right through the armor. A possible house rule would be to have SDC electricity do normal damage, and MDC electricity do double normal HP/SDC damage.

It might be okay to rule that magical protections (or psionic ones) remain intact at least since they're all non-physical and such. MD electricity shouldn't really get reduced (besides the standard 1/2ing) so as to give some incentive to a Psi-Ghost to say, learn Electrokinesis themself, or get a TW device that bestows Impervious to Energy...

It occurs to me a Psi-Ghost could actually go intangible while bringig a TW lightning rod along with them, no? This would protect them against electric attacks...

Which begs the question... if I stab a SAMAS with my intangible lightning rod, does it go right through the armor yet shock the person inside?

I mean, you have to figure, if tangible electricity does half damage to intangibles, then intangible electricity should do half damage to tangibles. It's only fair.

And yet another can of worms is opened.

Shiva, on this forum we have a worm stampede on a regular basis. Its like your worst nightmare...all the pasta you ever ate coming back after you..

If recall Electro kenisis won't solve the vulnerability. But TW and Psionc might to some degree so you have some protection. Truth is you rarely run into the issue and its easy to dodge..just go solid or dodge the burst. Its really not that killer a weakness as it seems.

Rimmerdal wrote:you rarely run into the issue and its easy to dodge..just go solid or dodge the burst. Its really not that killer a weakness as it seems.

Tor wrote:

Rimmerdal wrote:you rarely run into the issue and its easy to dodge..just go solid or dodge the burst. Its really not that killer a weakness as it seems.

Since when is dodging energy bursts easy? Most energy weapons have huge penalties to dodge and bonus nullificaiton. Psi-Ghosts don't have any special avoidance abilities either. So unless they're a Cyber-Knight on the side, the 1-hit kill potential of MD electricity is a big deal.

Speaking of CK on the side, it got me wondering what happens if a Psi-Ghost puts their intangible hand inside your body and then creates a psi-sword in it.