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I was going threw my books for ideas and I came across a race in Aliens unlimited revised that game me some ideas. The Dop-Elpoep on page 162 of AU seam to have a interesting concept Athol there I know they are probably to powerful for a PC I can easily come up with ways to run them as a GM. There base power level does not seam like they would be a party killer, there greatest power is that they are doppelgangers able to copy peoples skill at -2 level. So if done right could present a challenge for the party.

What I know about them, they are classified as humanoid vegetation doppelgangers have the fallowing powers Healing factor, resist energy, Create Doppelganger, and transfer life essence a PPE base of 3d6X10(but not of there powers use PPE). They also have limited psionic powers of Telepathy (note vegetation humanoids often communicate threw natural telepathy) empathy mind block and alter aura, but lack ISP (leads me to believe it is like psionics from After the bomb.

What I know about their powers, transfer life energy is to be used to move to a prepared doppelganger. A doppelganger is made by secreting a resin in a humanoid shape then studding a target. The doppelganger gains a copy rate of 3% per hour spent observing the target maxes out at 99%. While in the doppelganger they can use the skills of the copied person at -2 levels (this I assume is two levels below the target when copied.) They can also create a general racial copy with the traits of a race by observing a race in half the time i.e. 3% per half hour. Size is limited from 3-12 feet and the creature retains its own stats with only PB changing. It sill counts as a cold plant based life form but as it unlike most plants appears to need to eat real food IE it powers were originally to hunt.

Now the text is not clear on what all can be copied from the target.

I can assume that tech based augmentation can not be copied, and nether can granted powers of a witch or priest of light. But I have questions on other things.

Can spell ability be casting be copied?

Can racial abilities be copied?

Can OCC abilities and bonuses be copied?

Can SN and creatures of magic be copied (note on pf 164 is another doppelganger that clearly states that it can not be copy SN but the Dop-Elpoep does not state this.)?

This race has skills/education level not a standard list of racial skills so leads me to believe they may have a base OCC does that sound correct?

Since they don't appear to copy the super or psychic powers of the person they copy I'd say they wouldn't get their magic either, though they'd know all about the abilities of the person they copied. I'd also limit any natural abilities copied to ones like claws or a prehensile tail, but anything more 'advanced' like an immunity to magic for the race wouldn't be copied.


Daniel Stoker

Daniel Stoker wrote:Since they don't appear to copy the super or psychic powers of the person they copy I'd say they wouldn't get their magic either, though they'd know all about the abilities of the person they copied. I'd also limit any natural abilities copied to ones like claws or a prehensile tail, but anything more 'advanced' like an immunity to magic for the race wouldn't be copied.


Daniel Stoker

Acutaly the problem is the power create doppelganger is not defined in the right up. The skills part I got from the section on equilvlent level. The part on copy presentage and copy genral race are from the fluff. The only other place I can find create doppleganger is a spell of legend in BoM. So I have no real concreat write up to say what can be coppied. Even if only skills got coppied would most magic users abilty to cast spells be a skill.

I relise you are tring to be helpfull but it aprears you are making a statement on limits of the power that I can not find. What makes you think they can not coppy super or psychic powers? Perhaps that will help me understand your point.

Yes but if they don't say it there isn't any reason to assume they can. I mean you can house rule it but I'm not sure what you could argue that they could have it based on reading through the description of the creature.


Daniel Stoker

Daniel Stoker wrote:Yes but if they don't say it there isn't any reason to assume they can. I mean you can house rule it but I'm not sure what you could argue that they could have it based on reading through the description of the creature.


Daniel Stoker

The way it is writen it does not specify one way or another. But they are clasifed as beeing to powerfull for PCs. Just copping skills to me by itself does not sream to powerfull for a PC. What I do know for shure is based on what I can draw from the way it is writen.

A-having a high PPE makes no sense unless they can gain an abilty to use it.
B-How does PB define racial traits?
C-Are not most OCCs, found in systems outside of HU based on learning and training. IE Rouge sholar is a something you learn or train to do, as are most mages, and non augmented men at arms.

So with nothing blocking the skill to cast non granted spells A and C to me imply they can coppy a mages spell casting and posibaly most OCC bonuses for many rifts classes.

What is racial traits is a key question is the tracking of a dog boy and psi-stalker a racial trait? Is a floopers TP a racal trait? is horror factor a racial trait? Is the weakness of devils to SDC bones and silver weapons a racial trait?

It does not say they are limited to coping huminoids so could a Centar be copied? can a raptor be coppied or a 10' tall bear? Can a Ki-Lin be coppied?

These are the things I am tring to decide faily so that is why I am asking for help.

Also I think I edited my last post to clear up what I was saying while you where posting.

Blue_Lion wrote:I relise you are tring to be helpfull but it aprears you are making a statement on limits of the power that I can not find. What makes you think they can not coppy super or psychic powers? Perhaps that will help me understand your point.

Because there's not one mention anywhere in their description or powers stating they can copy a super or psychic power, plus they already have their own list of powers (the duplicate power, healing factor, energy resistance, as well as psionics) so I don't see why they would be able to get more. I also don't see where it says they're to powerful for a PC. There's the disclaimer on page 148 that says many of the creatures will combine the aspects of different power categories and because of that aren't available for PC's but nothing saying they're supposed to be to powerful, just that 'they break the rules; for a normal character.

Also how much PPE do they have? I just have the old 1st edition copy available to me.


Daniel Stoker

Daniel Stoker wrote:

Blue_Lion wrote:I relise you are tring to be helpfull but it aprears you are making a statement on limits of the power that I can not find. What makes you think they can not coppy super or psychic powers? Perhaps that will help me understand your point.

Because there's not one mention anywhere in their description or powers stating they can copy a super or psychic power, plus they already have their own list of powers (the duplicate power, healing factor, energy resistance, as well as psionics) so I don't see why they would be able to get more. I also don't see where it says they're to powerful for a PC. There's the disclaimer on page 148 that says many of the creatures will combine the aspects of different power categories and because of that aren't available for PC's but nothing saying they're supposed to be to powerful, just that 'they break the rules; for a normal character.

Also how much PPE do they have? I just have the old 1st edition copy available to me.


Daniel Stoker

The have 3d6X10 PPE it is unnder there powers. (placing them with as much PPE as a mage but no abilty to use it.)

So your stance is if they copy thing they have to say how they are the same?

Is not if you copy something saying how the are diffrence from the orical a equaly valid point?

The that is the only refrence I can find defineing create doppleganger creates a magical clone of the spell caster with all his skills and abilties at reduction 1/2. I do know the spell will not necarly do the same thing as the natural abilty, but I consider it a posible option to find insight into the intent.

Sorry if I seam pushy or defensive I just want to explore this race as much as posible before using them in a game, and some times the best way is to play devils advicate. Inspire people to find the defenitive aurgment to beat it or shed light to what I am missing.

No my stance is they have no ability to copy super powers because no where does it say they do and they already have a bunch of super powers, psionics, and the natural ability to dup people and copy their skills.


Daniel Stoker

Treat them like an Auto-G, they sound very similar and those similarities probably aren't by coincidence, I'd be willing to bet the Auto-G was based off them. The P.P.E. is a pretty big giveaway.

If your friend had a magic fling care in a game and the GM gave you a copy of it would you have a car or a magic fling car?

The questions I asked were mostly on what gets coppied from a OCC/race. So to clairfy what I am looking for is.

IF spell casting is a learned abilty can it be coppied?

What are racial traits?
If racial traits are commining charteristics of a race such as devil weakness to silver and bone weapons or a psi-stalkers traking could they be coppied?

Can learned OCCs abilties and bonuses be coppied?
Can RCCs be coppied?
(PCC might be coppied but they lack ISP to use the powers)

Unlike other powers that transform or copy it does not state that no SN can be coppied so can a SN be copied?

Can non huminiods in the size range of 3-12 feet be copied such as a bear or horse be coppied?


Gaint2005 they are not like a Auto-G, auto G use PPE to transform into a new person/race taking a short time to do so.
These Doppelgangers creat a new body then observe the target to cause the Doppelganger to copy the target, normaly spending 2-3 weeks to get a doppleganer ready, then it leaves its old body after an hour of medition to transfer into the new body. The whole process is not like normal shape shifters. That is part of what I find intresting and confusing they are coping something but no real details on how they the limits of what they copy. (the closest thing I can find to this process of copping a individaul into a body is the spell of legend creat doppelganger)

Daniel Stoker wrote:No my stance is they have no ability to copy super powers because no where does it say they do and they already have a bunch of super powers, psionics, and the natural ability to dup people and copy their skills.


Daniel Stoker

Let me break down what is said.

The book says they make a copy so good it has the skills of the origian. (ok)

Now to paraphase you, and break it down.
You are saying that it does not say the copy has the powers and abilties of the orginal so they do not have it, further adding that they have a bunch of super powers (actualy just resist enenergy as healing factor is supose to be a comon power of vegitiaion based charters) they have psionics (compaired to othe vegistaion based life forms they have what is often stanard for vegitation based races pluss two more minor powers alter aura and see aura; note other plant based life forms have psionics and major super powers) and the natural abilty to bup people and copy their skills (let me reword that to closer match how the book describes it they make a copy of a person to include the skills).

So what you are saying is that because they do not say the copy has the abilties of the orginal it lacks them besides they have a bunch of X and Y.

Why say how a copy is the same is that not the point of a copy to make something the same? Would it not make more sense to say how they are difrent?

Yes skills not their abilities and no where in their actual write up does it every say they gain additional abilities, psionics, or spells. It doesn't say it's a perfect copy which is why they have the limit where their skills are 2 levels lower and they show up on thermo scanners as being colder then a human and if you do a psychic scan they'll also show up. So the copy already isn't exactly the same as the person they copy even before special abilities.

As to their abilities, yes plants heal faster then people but they get the Healing Factor power which is much better then their 'natural' healing' and there is no mention on page 140 saying that plant characters get energy resistance.


Daniel Stoker

So you are saying that if a copy does not say how it is the same it is difrent again?
But in your own text you state how how they are naming the difrence between the copy and the original.

So would this be the case of telling how the copy is difrent from the orginal instead of how they are the same?

Useing the power Mimic as a refrence they are quite clear at saying what a mimic can not copy. While the creat doupelganger does list difrence but it only says it coppies the person up to 99% accurate to include straong memories and emotions. The skills section they say the skills are coppied at -2 levels. So yes it is not perfect is only 99% acurate so do the changes listed make the 1%?

The plant healing is called healing factor so the same name, the only thing I counted as power was a minor power of enrgy resistence. The create duppelganger and transfer life force energy are listed as natural abilties.

To me you are only tring to make a blanket statement and have not actualy adressed any of my questions. You seamed to have a knee jerk no responce but are not adressing the individual questions I asked.

Blue_Lion wrote:So you are saying that if a copy does not say how it is the same it is difrent again?
But in your own text you state how how they are naming the difrence between the copy and the original.

Can you please rewrite that as that just reads as ‘word salad’.

Useing the power Mimic as a refrence they are quite clear at saying what a mimic can not copy. While the creat doupelganger does list difrence but it only says it coppies the person up to 99% accurate to include straong memories and emotions. The skills section they say the skills are coppied at -2 levels. So yes it is not perfect is only 99% acurate so do the changes listed make the 1%?

Mimic is also clear with what it does copy and explains the mechanism behind it. For this alien we don’t get that, we get told how long it takes to make a dup that can’t be visually noticed as wrong as well as the skills it can copy and at what level they come at, but the description makes no other mention of anything else being copied nor how it should be handled so we’re left having to assume that they can only copy what the book talks about, especially when they already have a bunch of other abilities from the Dup power, to super powers, to psionics.

The plant healing is called healing factor so the same name, the only thing I counted as power was a minor power of enrgy resistence. The create duppelganger and transfer life force energy are listed as natural abilties.

It’s not the same thing as the actual healing factor power which except for the regrowing of limbs in 3D4X10 days is vastly superior so you really shouldn’t be treating them as the same.

To me you are only tring to make a blanket statement and have not actualy adressed any of my questions. You seamed to have a knee jerk no responce but are not adressing the individual questions I asked.

I was trying to explain why. Saying they get a lot of PPE doesn’t add rules to the class. Saying other vegetation races get some psionic powers doesn’t help as the vegetation class of aliens doesn’t actually give them by default certain psionic powers and you’re looking at Palladiums typical exceptions to rules to specific races, but even then they don’t all get to pick from multiple power categories in their sample races.

You REALLY seem to want to have the race copy powers and spell abilities, which is fine if you wish, but there still isn’t anything that I can see in their write up to allow you to assume that’s what was intended or that they can actually do that.


Daniel Stoker

Word salad? it seam realy clear to me.

I said you are saying that it is difrent unless it says how it is the same, then go on in the same text to point out they are idetifing how it is difrent from the orignal.

The location of healing factor is a inconsitency, in a write up that is inconsitent with the rest of the book. Not they also list skills as natural abilties, and PPE as a super power. (seams to be strong togehter wrong.)

Here is what is says on what it copies strait from the book.
"Or it can create a body with the genral traits of that race but not any one specific person; this takes half the time it takes to make an EXACT DUPLICATE"

Between the wording exact duplicate, and able to use racial traits, and the use of the word copy instead of form or shape of, seams to indecate that it does not mearly look like aperson and have skills.

What are racial traits? Are racial traits comin charteristics of a set race? Your blanket statement never adresses this.

You never realy adress any question I put forward you just keep spiting out blanket statments with what apears to be weak support.

(OH and for the record word salad looks like this- pie run window happy jump ant-words that do not even come close to forming a proper sentence even if a word is left out to a type-o it is not word salad. It is less insulting to say can you reword that to make it clearer to me.)

Blue_Lion wrote:Word salad? it seam realy clear to me.

I said you are saying that it is difrent unless it says how it is the same, then go on in the same text to point out they are idetifing how it is difrent from the orignal.

I’m still not getting what you mean. I’m saying what is different unless it says how it’s the same?

The location of healing factor is a inconsitency, in a write up that is inconsitent with the rest of the book. Not they also list skills as natural abilties, and PPE as a super power. (seams to be strong togehter wrong.)

The location isn’t an inconsistency the powers are VASTLY different between what they have for Vegetation aliens and what is the minor power. My book doesn’t have PPE at all, but I’ve got the older copy of the book and I see skills under ‘Education Level’ though like many races with natural skills they have 3 sills and an ability under Natural Ability.

[quyote]
Here is what is says on what it copies strait from the book.
"Or it can create a body with the genral traits of that race but not any one specific person; this takes half the time it takes to make an EXACT DUPLICATE"

Between the wording exact duplicate, and able to use racial traits, and the use of the word copy instead of form or shape of, seams to indecate that it does not mearly look like aperson and have skills.
[/quote]

It’s an exact visual duplicate though, earlier when going over the time frame it gives it 3% per hour up to 99% for how it’s able to copy the person it’s studying. And again it’s never really an exact duplicate because you can read it’s mind to see it’s not the person, it doesn’t radiate heat like a normal person, it’s got extra powers that are it’s base abilitites unlike the normal person.

What are racial traits? Are racial traits comin charteristics of a set race? Your blanket statement never adresses this.

Racial traits in regards to what? In my first post I said, “I'd also limit any natural abilities copied to ones like claws or a prehensile tail, but anything more 'advanced' like an immunity to magic for the race wouldn't be copied”. So I think I did answer that at the beginning.

You never realy adress any question I put forward you just keep spiting out blanket statments with what apears to be weak support.

It’s not a blanket statement, it’s explaining how I thought the rules worked and why I don’t think that class has extra abilities. I don’t see where you’re getting your support for copying and gaining super powers, psionics, and magic when there is no mention of it in the actual description anywhere which is pretty indicative in what a creature can do.

I was also trying to avoid one of these types of posts where we end up dissecting each and every sentence.

(OH and for the record word salad looks like this- pie run window happy jump ant-words that do not even come close to forming a proper sentence even if a word is left out to a type-o it is not word salad. It is less insulting to say can you reword that to make it clearer to me.)

And that’s what your sentence there looked like, I can’t make heads or tails of what you’re trying to say. (Also and not sure if this is going to come across as an insult or not, but is English your first language?)


Daniel Stoker

A We are talking about copy or duplicate so when I reworded it the I used it instead of typing out copy or duplicate.
B it never says it is a visual duplicate that is you placing it there.
C It clearly is more than a visual duplicate as it gets the hopes and dreams, and thaghts fo the person beeing copied.
D My question was what are racial traits you then reply with "in what reguard?" as in the text says. I have even listed specific expamples in earler posts of questions on it. I was asking what definces what is a racial trait and what is not.

F- you have not adressed any of my questions directly just making one stament to cover all them thus it is a blanket statment and in my opion weakly supported.

Failure to prove you point then attack my understanding of english is verry much capable of beeing precived as a personal attack I whould recomend refaining from it.


Now then for the third time the questions I am looking for dirct logial responces to.

IF spell casting is a learned abilty can it be coppied?

What are racial traits?
If racial traits are commining charteristics of a race such as devil weakness to silver and bone weapons or a psi-stalkers traking could they be coppied?

Can learned OCCs abilties and bonuses be coppied?
Can RCCs be coppied?
(PCC might be coppied but they lack ISP to use the powers)

Unlike other powers that transform or copy it does not state that no SN can be coppied so can a SN be copied?

Can non huminiods in the size range of 3-12 feet be copied such as a bear or horse be coppied?

This is a clearly a dead end you just keep coming up with new ways to say if a copy is does not say how it is the same then it is difrent.

I find that is more logical to say how a copy is difrent. From the spell of legend Doppelganer, in the BoM it is clear that they use doppleganger for clone or duplicate. So the only thing your debate has done is probed the opiset of what you say is true to me. I had honest questions but you made such broad and sweeping statments. So I debated against it to find the support for what you said, but you provided what seams to me to be weak support seams weak to me, from a knee jerk no respawnce.

To me if you copy something it more logical to talk about how a copy is difrent than how they are the same. The whole point of a copy is to be like the orginal. So given that and the lack of blocking coping a supernatural I can clearly gadge to powerfull for a PC and also have an more defined Idea of how to use them in a ingame story arc. Thank you for your time.

Blue_Lion wrote:A We are talking about copy or duplicate so when I reworded it the I used it instead of typing out copy or duplicate.

I have no idea what that's in regards to...

B it never says it is a visual duplicate that is you placing it there.

Yes, it's talking about a general member of the race or a specific person and goes up 3% an hour. What do you think the partial is, half of the person with half of his powers?

C It clearly is more than a visual duplicate as it gets the hopes and dreams, and thaghts fo the person beeing copied.

Yes, that's the skills it gets as well. But the portion you looked to seems to deal with how it looks, like a general person of that race or the exact version. But unless I'm missing it I don't see that it can end up with only 1/4 or 1/2 it's skills etc.

D My question was what are racial traits you then reply with "in what reguard?" as in the text says. I have even listed specific expamples in earler posts of questions on it. I was asking what definces what is a racial trait and what is not.

Where in what text? Can you please be a little more clear, and why are you ignoring the rest of that sentence where I say, "I'd also limit any natural abilities copied to ones like claws or a prehensile tail, but anything more 'advanced' like an immunity to magic for the race wouldn't be copied”.

F- you have not adressed any of my questions directly just making one stament to cover all them thus it is a blanket statment and in my opion weakly supported.

No I have, I may not have answered them to your approval though.

Failure to prove you point then attack my understanding of english is verry much capable of beeing precived as a personal attack I whould recomend refaining from it.

I didn't attack your understanding, I asked if it was your first language because that one sentence makes no sense and no offense in that very sentence you've got 7 spelling mistakes. If English ISN'T your first language then that could have helped explain why we weren't getting anywhere. I'm gonna guess that's not the case.

Now then for the third time the questions I am looking for dirct logial responces to.

IF spell casting is a learned abilty can it be coppied?

I'd say no as the class doesn't give any indication that it can copy super powers, magic, or psionics and while it specifically talks about skills I don't see anything else that would make me think they could.

What are racial traits?
If racial traits are commining charteristics of a race such as devil weakness to silver and bone weapons or a psi-stalkers traking could they be coppied?

No I wouldn't think so, like I said above, "I'd also limit any natural abilities copied to ones like claws or a prehensile tail, but anything more 'advanced' like an immunity to magic for the race wouldn't be copied” Just use 'racial abilities' in place of 'natural abilities'.

Can learned OCCs abilties and bonuses be coppied?

If they're skills yes, bonuses? No, they get the skills of the OCC at the level -2.

Can RCCs be coppied?
(PCC might be coppied but they lack ISP to use the powers)

No, they can make a creature that looks like a Simvan but it won't have their special animal handling powers.

Unlike other powers that transform or copy it does not state that no SN can be coppied so can a SN be copied?

I'd guess no because of their various powers etc I don't think would copy as noted above. You could make one that looks like a deevil though.

Can non huminiods in the size range of 3-12 feet be copied such as a bear or horse be coppied?

Nope, says humanoid so just stick with that.


Daniel Stoker

Try scolling up I said it three times in three difrent maners.

My understanding is you are saying that if you have a copy of something if you do not say a copy is the same as the orgianal that it is different than the oginal. That has been your whole point you just word it differtly to make it sound like it has more merrit.

Rember the whole point is that the power is not well defined and is described as making copy or Identical duplicate not mearly changing shape to look like the target. So if it is a copy of something why do you need to say it has the same abilities and powers it is more logical to say what is difrent about it and the orginal witch they did.

(For the record the book does not acutaly say they only copy humanoids. Orginaly it copied life forms on its home world to hunt and hide. It true form is a roughly humanoid shape. You assume allot in your side. such as they copy is difrent because they do not say it is the same, or it is only shape shifting not creating a copy.)

Also you failed a key rule check. PB normaly states when something does not work on SN and creatues of magic. The key hear is this lacked he normal tag for those that lack the ability. And your respawnce on coping SN is a direct coutnerdiciton in your logic. IE you say it can not look like a SN but then say it could make it self look like one. It is not a normal shape shifter it can only use its powers on what it can copy. You miss that on some things limits like no SN or humnoid only are not defult but added by catch phase.
I am threw good day sir.

No I'm saying you can make a copy, but unless it says it copies the power and explains a mechanism for how it works like the skills the copy is just visual because we have nothing saying it copies those other things. It obviously doesn't make an exact copy as listed as how it's already different from the original and how that can be detected.

As to the humanoid bit, the books says, "To create a doppelganger, the creature secretes a resin that is formed into a roughly humanoid shape." Since it doesn't mention other shapes it's an easy assumption that that's it. I'm not saying it's 100%, but a good guess based on what we see.


Daniel Stoker

If they are absorbing information like skills I'd consider allowing them to use spells but at a -1 spell strength per level of the spell being cast. and spells are casts at the level of the alien not the original magic user.

nilgravity wrote:If they are absorbing information like skills I'd consider allowing them to use spells but at a -1 spell strength per level of the spell being cast. and spells are casts at the level of the alien not the original magic user.

Not shure where the -1 came from but it might be safer to use the -2 from skills, and apply it to the lower of the alien and the orginals level. Ie a level 7 alien coping a level 5 mage cast at level 3 while a level 3 alien and level 5 mage cast at level 1.