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Posted: **Thu Dec 05, 2013 6:00 pm**

In our game we're having our own issues with Time Slip, so I searched the forums and (not unexpectedly) saw that topics with the spell Time Slip spell have come up occasionally. One thing I saw in a lot of those topics was a re-work of the Time Slip spell that basically was just a seven and a half second time stop effect. I feel that this is not quite what the spell was going for when it was (poorly) written, as evidenced by this line from the spell (in the Book of Magic):

The effect will appear, to others, as if the character disappears for an instant and then suddenly reappears a few seconds later.

Reconciling this in our game has been tough - it seems like every time we use the spell the G.M. rules on it differently just because it's so damn confusing as written. Rather than go with the convenient "Time Stop for everyone but me" spell effect, I took a shot at re-wording the spell to be closer to what I thought was more like how it was designed to work. With this version the spell Temporal Maelstrom can even be used against the Time Stop spell caster, as per the description of Temporal Maelstrom. I'm interested to have this looked over and collect any feedback which anyone can provide:

Time Slip
Range: Self.
Duration: Two melee attacks/actions.
Saving Throw: None.
P.P.E.: Twenty.

This invocation twists, warps and perverts time around the spell caster, enabling him to slip into a still moment of the near future. Once he arrives the caster has a few seconds (two melee attacks/actions) until time catches up with him. In the seconds before the normal flow of time resumes for everyone he may act, unseen and unknown to all those around him in this “frozen” moment of time. The magic is such that the character cannot physically hurt any living creature, but can move about the physical environment, open doors, grab an item, run, etc.

In game terms, the caster jumps forward in time by two melee attacks/actions. While he is gone the other characters play out those two actions as normal, keeping the same initiative order they had, as if the character who cast the spell had simply teleported away. In the third action since the spell was cast, on the caster’s initiative, the caster arrives and time for all the other characters is paused. The caster may now use two of his attacks/actions uninterrupted by anyone or anything else, subject to the restrictions noted earlier. Once those two actions have occurred then time resumes as per normal.

Note: From the standpoint of all the other characters, the caster disappears and then a few seconds later suddenly reappears in his new location, and at that same instant anything the caster manipulated or changed during the Time Slip suddenly shifts to the state or location the caster left it.

Posted: **Thu Dec 05, 2013 11:00 pm**

IMO its really simple. Take out "for an instant" from the original spell so it reads "The effect will appear, to others, as if the character disappears and then suddenly reappears. EDIT: also remove "a few seconds later."

So the character casts the spell and "disappears", they have in effect paused time for those nearby and can walk among them or run away, whatever as long as they don't attack those frozen, two actions later time resumes flow for those that were frozen whereupon the caster seemingly reappears.

To be honest I've never had a group dispute this spell in any way.

Posted: **Sat Dec 07, 2013 1:42 am**

The effects of the Time slip text are all wrong.
The basic Effect: The caster has 6 seconds/2 APM of actions that the caster has while the rest of the world is frozen in time.

What happens from the View point of an observer outside the TS spell: the caster disappears from the spot he/she was in and immediately appears in a different spot.
(Written as by someone who has put some though into the timey-whimy of time manipulation to the question "how it would this appear?")

Posted: **Sat Dec 07, 2013 10:02 am**

That's your interpretation, and I thank you for your input. How will the Time Maelstrom spell interact with your interpreted version of the spell Time Slip?

Posted: **Sat Dec 07, 2013 1:21 pm**

6 seconds?

I'm pretty that the description says 7 seconds and I'm also pretty sure that they really intended half a melee (7.5 seconds).

-dost

Posted: **Sat Dec 07, 2013 9:35 pm**

the way I personally have run it is that time stops for the caster (they slip into the future) and reappear at the end of the time of their 'action' that they cast the spell (a few seconds later). Mileage may vary, since this spell like many things in Palladium is ill defined from a rules stand point and more dramatically/narratively described.

Posted: **Sat Dec 07, 2013 9:45 pm**

eliakon wrote:the way I personally have run it is that time stops for the caster (they slip into the future) and reappear at the end of the time of their 'action' that they cast the spell (a few seconds later). Mileage may vary, since this spell like many things in Palladium is ill defined from a rules stand point and more dramatically/narratively described.

Hence my attempt to do that in the first post.

Posted: **Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:39 pm**

Looks like a good discussion going on here.

I have toyed with quite a few interpretations of Time Slip and there are so many opportunities to abuse and break the game with this spell that it even calls into question how "aggressive" a non-aggressive action can be when used in conjunction with this spell.

One of the biggest hang-ups I have is how people around you lose 2apm without a chance to save and you gain 7.5s (which could be anywhere from 2 actions up to 6 or even 7). What happens if one of your actions is to cast another Time Slip? Do you slip from the future into the...future of the future? Defining a TIME for time-slip allows the biggest opportunity for abuse because squeezing out more apm is much easier in a high-power game.

First adjustment I'd make is drop the 2apm penalty for everyone in the area. That's not only unfair but antiquated. Time Slip allowing you to slip into the future is a very cool concept. One of the things I'd do is define exactly what can be done with your gained actions. As a lvl 7 spell it would normally take 2 actions to cast so I would allow it to give a person 3 actions -- they gain a few seconds. If it's cast from a talisman in one action they gain a few more seconds. Boom!

The next adjustment I'd make is as soon as the spell goes off the caster disappears (per the spell) -- he then tells his 3 actions to the GM -- and the GM, to maintain the current melee round turn-order, fits those actions in with the bystanders. People keep acting the way they otherwise would. At the end of their 3 equivalent actions the caster REAPPEARS. Boom!

The final adjustment I would make is saying that certain things no matter how non-aggressive they are just can't be done. Casting other Temporal spells (Time Slip, Time Stop, 4th Dim Transf.) from within a Time Slip just isn't possible -- this eliminates incongruencies with how time is passing and how time is PERCEIVED to pass by players AND their characters in-game. If you want Time Slip to be for escape only or making fast-getaways -- or any of those examples that are listed in the spell description I'd built that in as well. But that's not necessarily a part of my re-write.

Posted: **Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:40 pm**

I forgot to mention that the actions gained are NOT in addition to a person's normal APM -- they just use them "faster" and without the opportunity for interruption.

Posted: **Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:46 pm**

I just stop time for half a melee (7.5 seconds) for everyone but the casster and the caster has that much time to accomplish whatever he can (legally) accomplish before time resumes for everyone else. And, yes, I allow casting Time Slip while time is still stopped to extend it another 7.5 seconds (this is mostly only useful for running away). To a 3rd party observer, the effect of the spell looks like a teleport since there is no time, from the 3rd party perspective, between when the Time Slip starts and ends. Nobody else loses any attacks per melee (except maybe to surprise) and the caster gains half a melee's worth of time to act.

Since time is stopped, the caster can't interact with things like computers or guns. Electronics are unresponsive. That sort of thing. Flipping a switch has no effect until time resumes (this can be a good thing, like with explosives).

The mechanics given in the spell description are totally stupid and confusing. When we were first trying out the system, the first time Time Slip came up we paused the game, had a collective "Wait, what?" moment, and then threw out the canon effects and instituted what I've described above.

--flatline

Posted: **Mon Dec 09, 2013 3:08 pm**

Witchcraft wrote:Looks like a good discussion going on here.

I have toyed with quite a few interpretations of Time Slip and there are so many opportunities to abuse and break the game with this spell that it even calls into question how "aggressive" a non-aggressive action can be when used in conjunction with this spell.

One of the biggest hang-ups I have is how people around you lose 2apm without a chance to save and you gain 7.5s (which could be anywhere from 2 actions up to 6 or even 7). What happens if one of your actions is to cast another Time Slip? Do you slip from the future into the...future of the future? Defining a TIME for time-slip allows the biggest opportunity for abuse because squeezing out more apm is much easier in a high-power game.

They shouldn't have a chance to save, the spell is acting on the caster it's not targeting anyone else so they have no reason to get any kind of save against a spell that really affects just him. Just like you don't get to save against a mage using Adrenal Rush to gain extra attacks.

Posted: **Mon Dec 09, 2013 3:45 pm**

So it sounds to me like nobody actually believes that the spell as written should send the caster into "the future" and instead it should just be a 7½ second time stop. Is that a fair assessment of the responses provided so far?

Posted: **Mon Dec 09, 2013 4:43 pm**

Glistam wrote:So it sounds to me like nobody actually believes that the spell as written should send the caster into "the future" and instead it should just be a 7½ second time stop. Is that a fair assessment of the responses provided so far?

That's certainly a fair assessment of my response.

--flatline

Posted: **Mon Dec 09, 2013 5:54 pm**

I agree with flatline on this. Reading the description of Time Slip, the first sentence describes the intent of the spell "momentarily suspends time.." The used word in the same sentence "..slip seven seconds into the future." is poorly worded IMO, and should say 'emerge'. I also wholeheartedly agree that the 'all others loose 2 melee actions/attacks' sentence should be ignored/removed as it is not an accurate mechanic for what the spell is intending.
I might have to address Glistam's question on the Time Maelstrom issue when I have time to process how I feel about the net effect of Time Slip completely (ie, is the mage pushing himself into the future, or is it a by-product of the spell, or does it even make a difference for the purpose of the discussion...)

Posted: **Fri Dec 13, 2013 11:38 am**

I'm curious what the radius is for your 7.5s Time Slip / Stop. If the entire world stops for 7.5 seconds then why not call it time stop? It says you can't take any aggressive actions so is Time Slip just a Point-Blank Area of Effect NON-AGGRESSIVE version of Time Stop? Time Stop is targeted in a radius / sphere. The duration is considerably longer for the higher level spell.

What confuses me most is how Temporal Maelstrom would interact with your version of the spell.

Hypothetically: a 12th level Temporal Wizard activates fighting spirit, MARush, frenzy insanity, and sorcerous fury. His 6apm just turned into 13 and he time-slips for 6/7 more actions. On the first action he casts a Time Stop, 3rd / 4th action he casts a AMCloud, his last action, he activates another Time Slip from the talisman -- 1 charge left.

Even a very experience temporal wizard with access to temporal maelstrom (one of the few responses / recourse to this chain of events) is left with basically nothing to do. If he rolls a nat 18-20 on his save vs the AMCloud he can act when he comes out of the time stop -- but with a second time slip the temporal wizard just bought a 2nd round of 6/7 actions.

Perhaps my knowledge of the system and its intricacies isn't adequate enough to know how to prevent this from being abused. I cannot find fault in player logic -- that's all perfectly planned and flawlessly executed. Even AFTER the Time Slips are over the enemies are still caught in Time Stops that will outlast the Time Slips by at least two full minutes. There's no save for Time Slip or Time Stop. Maybe that's working as intended.

I'm curious how you would GM the situation I outlined because...hehe...it happened about a week ago in our last game. LOL! All I could do was sit back and say...hot damn! You're a badass mamajamma! MINUS 50 DKP!!!!!

Posted: **Fri Dec 13, 2013 2:58 pm**

Sorcerous Fury doesn't allow you to cast such things as Time Stop or Anti-Magic Cloud since they're not technically attack spells, but besides that, you're absolutely right that it sucks for anyone in the Time Stopped area.

This is why it's so important to get the drop on your opponent.

--flatline

Posted: **Wed Dec 18, 2013 8:13 pm**

This is the version of Time Slip we will be implementing in our next game:

Witchcraft wrote:
Time Slip
Range: Self.
Duration: Two melee attacks/actions. (costs one action to cast)
Saving Throw: None.
P.P.E.: Twenty.

This invocation twists, warps and perverts time around the spell caster, enabling him to slip into a still moment of the near future. Once he arrives the caster has a few seconds (two melee attacks/actions) until time catches up with him. In these seconds he may act; unseen and unknown to all those around him in this “frozen” moment of time. The magic is such that the character cannot physically hurt any living creature, but can move about the physical environment, open doors, grab an item, run, etc.

In game terms, the caster jumps forward in time by two melee attacks/actions. While he is gone the other characters play out those two actions as normal, keeping the same initiative order they had, as if the character who cast the spell had simply teleported away. In the third action since the spell was cast, on the caster’s initiative, the caster arrives (read: appears) and time for all the other characters is paused. The caster may now use two of his attacks/actions uninterrupted by anyone or anything else, subject to the restrictions noted earlier. Once those two actions have occurred then time resumes as per normal.

From the standpoint of all the other characters, the caster disappears and then a few seconds later suddenly reappears, possibly in a new location. In the instant when the caster appears perhaps some things in their surroundings instantly change as well, such as a door that was open is now closed, or someone who was running suddenly now has a large stool in front of them they need to avoid, etc.

Remember: Time is STOPPED when the character initially reappears so his interactions with things like electronics, computers, spells, and people are limited.

There is no limit to the number of times Time Slip may be cast; but it CANNOT be cast during the duration of (read: from within) a Time Slip. Time Slip may be cast on the caster’s LAST action of the melee round thereby giving him an extra two actions for that melee round.

Other temporal manipulation spells may be cast but they are subject to the requirements of spell-casting actions. ANY spell the caster begins to cast from within the duration of a Time Slip continues to cast LIKE NORMAL with the only exception being that the character CAN be interrupted once he reappears (and the Time Slip is over). However, he may have moved unexpectedly or taken a position of cover making him a harder target to reacquire / relocate.

Any actions taken from within the Time Slip duration cannot be seen, known, or interrupted by anything living — including other temporal wizards; a Temporal Maelstrom is the only effective way of combating / neutralizing a Time Slip and even then only seasoned / veteran Temporal Wizards and Raiders have access to this spell and can recognize Time Slip when it is cast. Electronic recording devices cannot be fooled. Only during playback will the character completely disappear for the few seconds duration of Time Slip and reappear as the video time seemingly speeds up to catch up to him. This last bit is subject to GM discretion and storytelling technique.

Posted: **Fri Dec 20, 2013 1:33 pm**

That's interesting. Why did you make a level 6 spell cost 1apm to cast?

Posted: **Fri Dec 20, 2013 1:55 pm**

Witchcraft wrote:That's interesting. Why did you make a level 6 spell cost 1apm to cast?

You would have to ask my insane G.M. directly - none of us ever know what that guy is thinking.

Posted: **Fri Dec 20, 2013 2:04 pm**

Witchcraft wrote:That's interesting. Why did you make a level 6 spell cost 1apm to cast?

For me, I think that I'd rule that the Temporal OCC's/RCC would be have this reduced casting benefit, and all other spellcasters have the standard 2 apm. But again, that's just me.

Posted: **Mon Dec 23, 2013 1:56 pm**

I think the intention here was to retain the feeling and intent behind the original spell -- a mage's ability to make a quick get-a-way or to steal something and go unnoticed or to otherwise act furtively or save his hide. The question I posed of my players is: Think of the things that have been done with Time Slip. Think of those incredible, cinematic scenes and scenarios and think about what made them especially daring or awesome or spectacular. Everyone had a different favorite experience or situation or little vignette in which Time Slip made an exciting scene AMAZING!

So the next step was to attempt to recreate the spell while preserving its ability to enable spectacularly cinematic scenes like the ones we remembered.

The result was we limited the spell's number of free actions. Instead of half a melee or 7.5 seconds (which was really written BEFORE we adopted the casting "actions" rule in RUE) we limited it to 2 free actions. However, in order to allow the spell to be whipped out in a time of need cutting its casting time down to one-action made it much less situational and much more -- oh *#$*!!!!! Get the heck outta Dodge!

The last thing we did was remove the implied penalties to the surrounding combatants. Taking actions away from other folks just didn't make sense. By "slipping into the future" all the caster is doing is avoiding the present until the world catches up to him. So he slips ahead a few actions. When the world catches up he gets his free actions. He's out-of-play for the duration until he returns thereby granting him two actions of uninterrupted immunity.

For a level 7 spell and the PPE cost I went ahead and said, "*&$@ it -- let's push the casting time up to 1 action."

In the end that's what worked for us at the brainstorming table. We have yet to see the new spell in action but in theory it could be different than in practice. This weekend I'm sure SOMEONE will attempt to use the spell and we'll discuss what worked and what didn't after the session like usual. I tell my players that nothing is set in stone and that this will be subject to some more testing and feedback and possibly future iterations if there's enough desire.

Thoughts?

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