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Archery can be pretty cool despite its low damage potential. While it can take considerable skill investment if you have the attributes it can be pretty rewarding. The main strength of the WP proficiency is written clearly on page 326:

RUE page 326 wrote:W.P. Ancient Weapons
A note about Ancient Weapon Proficiencies (W.P.): Each W.P.
provides combat training with a particular type of weapon. The result is
hand to hand combat bonuses to strike and parry whenever that particular
type of weapon is used. Bonuses that increase for that particular
weapon are accumulative and are combined with the character's P.P.
attribute, O.C.C., and Hand to Hand Combat skill bonuses.

Archery is one of the straight up most accurate ranged skills possible, your PP bonus, your HTH strike and damage bonus all apply to your archery strikes.

While doing damage is difficult and almost certainly requires the use of magic items but in this game being able to hit a small vital location can be very important. The fact that your physical skills and hand to hand skills can all add to your deadliness is cake

Why is Archery cool? Three reasons, one: Variety, you can shoot all sorts of arrows that have all sorts of effects and switch between them without burning extra actions. Second As I mentioned before but if you lucked or built into a high PP or your hand to hand skill is handing you a cool crit range or damage bonus, it plays (though P.S. bonus unless otherwise stated specifically never effects your archery damage). Third, you look less dangerous to almost everyone in this wild crazy world where a pistol can melt a tank into slag and are more likely to blend into the background.

Here is a handy list of in game sources for Archery Goodness:
Rifts Book of Magic page 328: All Goblin Bombs can be purchased as Arrowheads that have full effect but sadly half the range of an arrow. The ability to use your bow to cast spells with your bow is pretty cool, I especially like using carpet of adhesion arrows.
Rifts England page 41: The Scathath occ. This is the guy who makes your first bow and most of your arrows, the Pine longbow he makes is nearly indestructible and the extra to hit and initiative and the oak shaft arrows should be silver headed for demon and vampire extermination.
Rifts Game Masters Guide page 150: Details all of the useful high tech arrows (your bread and butter) and oddly enough includes mega damage magic arrows for some reason. The tracking arrow is especially useful for people with teleporting and invisible opponents.
Pantheons of the Megaverse: The only book that details rune bows (Apollo and Artemis both have one and they are astoundingly powerful).
Rifts Merc Ops: Contains the mega damage Crossbow, an archer's sniper rifle. It also has the swarm bow TW crossbow, which does respectable damage if loaded with its expensive ammunition.
Rifts South America 1: has a bio energy bow which does not have a string which drastically limits its effectiveness. (thanks kaid)
Rifts South America 2 page 185: This is buried in the Larhold Barbarian RCC equipment, A Larhold Barbarian Composite bow does supernatural strength punch damage +6 mega damage. No price on one though so you do have to take it from the rapidly stiffening hands of its former owner but still it is the only example of a strength based bow I can think of in any rifts book.
Rifts Spirit West Page 203: There is a MDC bow that one needs to have supernatural strength or a staggering amount of lesser strength to draw this bow. There is a Laser bow which is terrible. There are also spirit fetish bows which if you are not a native American spirit warrior you will never see let alone be able to use.
Rifts Mystic Russia: The Mystic Kunzyia OCC has a collection of surprisingly anemic arrows it can make, not really anything special considering the incredible power of nearly everything else the Kunzyia can make.
Rifts Splynne Dimensional Market: The T-archer is in this book, the automatically get targeting with all bows and crossbows.
Rifts China 2: While I cannot see any direct archery tools in here the magic scarves are incredible, they grand a extra d6 damage (SDC or MDC), an extra attack and healthy auto dodge. Totally worth it if you can get one.
Rifts Dinosaur Swamp: SteelTree Bows and Arrows and a techno wizard arrow, the bows have a minus to hit of all things but they do up to 3d6 MD which can be pretty good.
Rifts Japan: The have a magic bow so expensive you can sell it and retire comfortably for the rest of your life, its really neat but sooo freaking expensive.

Now one of the most important things to make a powerful Archer is in Rifter 30, there is a fabulous article about specializing in skills that allows one to specialize or master primitive weapons including archery. Its not part of the standard rules set so I am including it here but if you are playing a Men at Arms OCC its totally worth it if you want a truly kick ass Archer.

I've been playing a Cyber Knight with a preference for primitive weapons for some time and here are a few custom arrows I've worked out for my character, they work out pretty well:

The BigBore Arrow: Basically we replace the explosive from a explosive arrow with the explosive from a Bigbore pistol round, this makes an arrow that does a mere 1d6 mega damage but also has a pretty solid knockdown ability, because knocking an opponent on his ass is almost as important as hurting them, especially when you have friends also targeting your opponent.

The Naruni Plasma Arrow: Basically its easy to assume that a Naruni Pistol round (the tiny 3d6 one, not one of the larger ones) can be used as the explosive in a home made arrow, the important part to note is it is much cheaper to make arrows and add Naruni bullets than it is to buy explosives so while the damage is not any more impressive the cost is considerably cheaper.

The Wilk's blinder arrow: basically we harvest some of the light emitters from a Wilk's blinder grenade and mount them on an electric arrowhead. Making a called shot on any kind of optics input allows you to blind it (its too small to justify a radius).

Luminescent Paint Arrow: This garish, glowing foul smelling paint gets splattered all over your target and makes it much harder for them to hide and much easier for them to be tracked.

Olerak Mace Arrow: Like Mace but this stuff works on demons and creatures of magic as well, if your opponent breathes this is an effective way to harm them. Olerak Mace is in Merc Opps.

Radio/Microphone Arrow: Basically an arrow with a speaker and microphone built in for surveillance/misdirection and to facilitate communication.

TW Arrows:

TW Float in air Arrow: going by the guide Goblin Grenades gave us a 3rd level spell arrows have a market cost of 12000 credits, and float in air is a pretty crippling spell for someone not expecting it, halve movement speed and pile on some nasty strike penalties.

TW Light Target Arrow: This arrow casts light target on its target, making it nearly impossible for it to not draw attention to itself.

I like cyclops lighting arrows for some heavy damage for archers.

Additionally, archers do not need expensive high tech gadgets to kill silently. (Depending on if your lasers make sound or not).

The only thing about archery in Rifts is the disconnect between your hand to hand attacks and your archery rate of fire.

level: H2H:Basic/Archery ROF
1: 4/2
2: 4/3
3: 4/3
4: 5/4
5: 5/4
6: 5/5
7: 5/5
8: 5/6
9: 6/6
10: 6/7
11: 6/7
12: 6/8
13: 6/8
14: 6/9
15: 7/9

So you see, at first, it makes sense that you have more attacks than the number of times you can fire an arrow, but eventually, you can fire more arrows than you have attacks to do anything with (assuming you are not a juicer, Gromek, Rahu Man, have Boxing, and/or am ambidextrous). Does this mean Archery ROF *replaces* APM as long as thats all you do? Do some attacks allow for two arrows in the same attack to allow for the higher rate of fire? Should Archery ROF just be ignored and follow H2H attacks like everything else?

There are a thousand different ways for GMs to deal with this, but this disconnect is one of the reasons why people just dont do archery in Palladium because the GM and the player will most likely have a different way they think it should be done.

It's ridiculous that the game mechanics make archery more accurate than, say, laser rifles.

Just another example of the rules as written making no sense at all.

--flatline

Despite the way the text is written, it is common knowledge that Char PP and HtH bonuses do not stack with Ranged weapons

The Oh So Amazing Nate wrote:Despite the way the text is written, it is common knowledge that Char PP and HtH bonuses do not stack with Ranged weapons

while I agree that HTH should not stack I think PP should stack with ranged weapons (all ranged weapons) then we could get rid of that stupid -10 rule bs altogether.

The Oh So Amazing Nate wrote:Despite the way the text is written, it is common knowledge that Char PP and HtH bonuses do not stack with Ranged weapons

The PP bonus does not stack with Modern weapons, however the rules are very clear that Archery gets the full PP bonus.

Rifts GmG page 32 wrote:Are Hand to Hand bonuses combined with Weapon Proficiencies?
Yes, for melee -weapons like clubs, swords, spears, bow and arrow,
etc. So if you have +1 to strike from the Hand to Hand: Basic combat
skill and +1 with W.P. Sword and +2 from the P.P. attribute, the character
will be +4 to strike.
No, for modern -weapons; i.e. guns and missiles. The W.P. itself
presents the only applicable shooting/strike bonus.

So in addition to the RUE quote above you'll see that Archery has been clarified as being treated as a melee skill for the sake of bonuses.

rat_bastard wrote:The Naruni Plasma Arrow: Basically its easy to assume that a Naruni Pistol round (the tiny 3d6 one, not one of the larger ones) can be used as the explosive in a home made arrow, the important part to note is it is much cheaper to make arrows and add Naruni bullets than it is to buy explosives so while the damage is not any more impressive the cost is considerably cheaper.

5d6 MD, actually, for the Plasma Derringer, IIRC.

3d6 MD is if you use the more expensive Wilk's CFT rounds (again, IIRC).

Killer Cyborg wrote:

rat_bastard wrote:The Naruni Plasma Arrow: Basically its easy to assume that a Naruni Pistol round (the tiny 3d6 one, not one of the larger ones) can be used as the explosive in a home made arrow, the important part to note is it is much cheaper to make arrows and add Naruni bullets than it is to buy explosives so while the damage is not any more impressive the cost is considerably cheaper.

5d6 MD, actually, for the Plasma Derringer, IIRC.

3d6 MD is if you use the more expensive Wilk's CFT rounds (again, IIRC).

There are four sizes, 3d6 (a pistol/smg round) 5d6 (a hunting revolver/.410 round) 1d4x10 (a two inch bore on the gun) and the sniper canon round (friggin huge!!)

rat_bastard wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

rat_bastard wrote:The Naruni Plasma Arrow: Basically its easy to assume that a Naruni Pistol round (the tiny 3d6 one, not one of the larger ones) can be used as the explosive in a home made arrow, the important part to note is it is much cheaper to make arrows and add Naruni bullets than it is to buy explosives so while the damage is not any more impressive the cost is considerably cheaper.

5d6 MD, actually, for the Plasma Derringer, IIRC.

3d6 MD is if you use the more expensive Wilk's CFT rounds (again, IIRC).

There are four sizes, 3d6 (a pistol/smg round) 5d6 (a hunting revolver/.410 round) 1d4x10 (a two inch bore on the gun) and the sniper canon round (friggin huge!!)

Great, now I have to pull out my RGMG....

The NE-H10 Plasma Derringer uses "miniature plasma cartridges" that do 5d6 MD.
The NE-4 Plasma Cartridge Pistol does 1d4x10 MD.
The NE-2L Plasma Cartridge Auto-Pistol uses the same rounds as the derringer.

I'm guessing that the 3d6 rounds are in Naruni Wave 2?

Either way, a 5d6 MD arrow should be perfectly possible, and that's some respectable firepower.

I think the PP bonuses added to archery along with the hand to hand bonuses is mostly there to offset the fact that in general archery is really slow and baring weird magic items like the crazy legendary fetish bows very low damage.

It also helps bows be really useful for one of the best uses of them which is heart shots on vampires. In general baring access to some crazy magic bow a bow is mostly for utility effects with trick heads and for ranged vampire staking.

Now all those bonuses on a character who DOES have access to the legendary spirit bow makes me a bit twitchy with its 1d4x10 damage at 2000 ft range but most of the character who can use such things are so highly limited on what gear they can have I figure having one awesome weapon offsets their otherwise lackluster gear options.

Oh I think one good magic bow type was missed the biomancer created bows from south america and lemuria. They work in a similar way to the spirit bow pull back the string and magic bio energy bolt appears. I believe they do similiar damage to the lesser fetish weapons 4d6mdc or so at pretty good range.

Also one thing to note in spirit west the legendary spirit bows are pretty much limited to two classes or divine intervention but the major spirit fetish bow and the fetish that simply turns a normal weapon into MDC are pretty common at least amongst native americans most spirit west OCC would have access to them if they chose. They either do 4d6 MDC damage or as per weapons SDC flat transmuted to MDC depending on the fetish employed.

I do love me some archers which is one reason I really like the spirit warriors and paradox shaman. Paradox shaman is basically a native american temporal wizard with less crazy and they get a legendary spirit bow at level 2 automatically.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

rat_bastard wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

rat_bastard wrote:The Naruni Plasma Arrow: Basically its easy to assume that a Naruni Pistol round (the tiny 3d6 one, not one of the larger ones) can be used as the explosive in a home made arrow, the important part to note is it is much cheaper to make arrows and add Naruni bullets than it is to buy explosives so while the damage is not any more impressive the cost is considerably cheaper.

5d6 MD, actually, for the Plasma Derringer, IIRC.

3d6 MD is if you use the more expensive Wilk's CFT rounds (again, IIRC).

There are four sizes, 3d6 (a pistol/smg round) 5d6 (a hunting revolver/.410 round) 1d4x10 (a two inch bore on the gun) and the sniper canon round (friggin huge!!)

Great, now I have to pull out my RGMG....

The NE-H10 Plasma Derringer uses "miniature plasma cartridges" that do 5d6 MD.
The NE-4 Plasma Cartridge Pistol does 1d4x10 MD.
The NE-2L Plasma Cartridge Auto-Pistol uses the same rounds as the derringer.

I'm guessing that the 3d6 rounds are in Naruni Wave 2?

Either way, a 5d6 MD arrow should be perfectly possible, and that's some respectable firepower.

It is indeed a Naruni wave innovation.

This is why we keep you around.

the thing is, archery skill and hth should stack....
including attacks per melee like HTH and the mecha skills in Robotech stack.

check out Lars Anderson on Youtube....and you will understand what I mean.

another fun weapon tweek that works well for archers but also for anyone, is the charm weapon spells from night bane, and enchant weapon minor can turn 72 arrows. to md.

a mage archer can be a blast to play if you have a understanding gm. you need to develop 2 spells create spell arrow(scribe scroll) and enchant arrow(enchant weapon minor). a elven battle magi archer especially with a TW bow.

a TW archer can be a fun to a TW robin hood. with a slight steam punk look. with cogs and leverls attached to his modified compound bow, that fires arrows with a supernatural strength, speed, and accuracy.

sirkermittsg wrote:the thing is, archery skill and hth should stack....
including attacks per melee like HTH and the mecha skills in Robotech stack.

check out Lars Anderson on Youtube....and you will understand what I mean.

Like I said, Rifter 30, rifter 30 rifter 30.

rat_bastard wrote:

sirkermittsg wrote:the thing is, archery skill and hth should stack....
including attacks per melee like HTH and the mecha skills in Robotech stack.

check out Lars Anderson on Youtube....and you will understand what I mean.

Like I said, Rifter 30, rifter 30 rifter 30.

If you really want to expand archery Rifter 45 is where it is at.

So in the game I am playing My Cyber Knight, Dev Machellan is an archery master at 6th level, My GM allows three things that many would not allow: First, he allows the Cyber Knight Extra attack to apply to Archery ROF, second, he allows the Boxing extra attack to apply to Archery ROF and third he allowed me to take the Advanced archery and archery mastery skills in Rifter #30 (Rifters 30 and 19 are the two greatest rifters for skills). The result is my 6th level cyber knight has 10 archery attacks per round and a +20 to strike with bows (without some sort of accuracy bonus from special arrows or bows) and uses a Sacathath Pine recurve longbow as her focused weapon.

One of the toys she's had worked up is a TW Thunderquiver. Its a Quiver that holds six arrows (silver headed only) directly on the bow that acts similar to a TW thundergun from New West Basically if charged and loaded with six silver arrows it charges them with magical energy that is extremely deadly to Supernatural Evil. She also has access to a teleportation circle that takes her to a Druids circle in England where the local Druids know her as a good friend to the Millennium trees, which keeps her in Arrows.

A lot of the other things you're listing i would never allow; but the one thing i would do by default is ignore the silly archery ROF listed and just go with however many attacks your character has. I know a few archers (via larping and reenactment) who can put 10+ arrows into the air in 15-20 seconds, reasonably accurately (theyll all hit a man-sized target, at least) and they aren't even "pros".

13eowulf wrote:

rat_bastard wrote:

sirkermittsg wrote:the thing is, archery skill and hth should stack....
including attacks per melee like HTH and the mecha skills in Robotech stack.

check out Lars Anderson on Youtube....and you will understand what I mean.

Like I said, Rifter 30, rifter 30 rifter 30.

If you really want to expand archery Rifter 45 is where it is at.

The archery article in rifter 45 is a pretty lackluster page filler in imho, three OCCS and a hand to hand that nearly cripples anything but a longbowman in his element.

I think some of the archery/targeting skill may suffer from a bit of hand me down copy pasting and an easy enough conversion is simply treat it like modern range WP.

As for the number of shots per round as shown by one of the previous posters the archery skill has a weird "feature" in that at low levels you get less attacks per round than you would normally have but at higher level you actually get more attacks per round using the bow than you otherwise would. It only takes a couple levels before you reach near parity and by level 6 attacks with bow are going to be the same as or greater than HTH basic which is honestly a pretty respectable level of fire.

I have a feeling though that their attacks per round are an old artifact from the palladium RPG system and it probably should just be switched to work the same as modern weapon proficiencies.

rat_bastard wrote:

13eowulf wrote:

rat_bastard wrote:

sirkermittsg wrote:the thing is, archery skill and hth should stack....
including attacks per melee like HTH and the mecha skills in Robotech stack.

check out Lars Anderson on Youtube....and you will understand what I mean.

Like I said, Rifter 30, rifter 30 rifter 30.

If you really want to expand archery Rifter 45 is where it is at.

The archery article in rifter 45 is a pretty lackluster page filler in imho, three OCCS and a hand to hand that nearly cripples anything but a longbowman in his element.

I like the OCCs, but they are geared for Fantasy.

The two Archery specific H2H I like though, as well as the obtainable-as-skills Archery Proficiencies.

One thing I would like to point out is that the -10 to dodge does not appear to be part of the RUE rules set for Archery or thrown weapons:

RUE page 361 wrote:Dodging Bullets & Energy Blasts
A character may try to dodge gunfire and energy beams on the condition
he knows they are coming and he can see his attacker.
The only applicable bonuses for dodging gunfire or energy beams
(from energy weapons, monsters, psionics or magic) are the character's
P.P. attribute bonus and any O.C.C. bonus to dodge. The defender trying
to dodge must match or better the shooter's roll to strike to make a
successful dodge.
Dodging Penalties:
-10 to dodge at point-blank range; within 10 feet (3 m) of the
shooter.
-5 to dodge at close range, within 50 feet (15.2 m) of the shooter.

Accuracy is a extremely relative concept, the most accurate archer I've ever seen skeet shoots aspirin and was pretty awe inspiring but he makes those shots maybe 20 feet away, meanwhile the greatest sniper shot in the world was well over two miles. An archer can easily have a much higher to hit with his bow than a similar gun wielder but his projectiles are easier to dodge, have generally less range and as a rule do less damage.

kaid wrote:I think some of the archery/targeting skill may suffer from a bit of hand me down copy pasting and an easy enough conversion is simply treat it like modern range WP.

I have always wondered this actually. Is the WP Archery rate of fire a holdover from when characters had two attacks to start that was just never updated for when everyone got two extra?

Eashamahel wrote:

kaid wrote:I think some of the archery/targeting skill may suffer from a bit of hand me down copy pasting and an easy enough conversion is simply treat it like modern range WP.

I have always wondered this actually. Is the WP Archery rate of fire a holdover from when characters had two attacks to start that was just never updated for when everyone got two extra?

I have to disagree, not only was it changed from archery and targeting to just archery but the rules for dodging arrows changed.

The ROF wasn't ever updated, though.
Used to be you'd get 2 HTH attacks at first level, or you'd get 2 shots with your bow.
Now it's 4 HTH attacks, or 2 with a bow.

Isn't that the same thing that happened with magic? Used to get 2 HTH attacks at first level, or 2 spell attacks, then it was 4 HTH attacks and 2 spell attacks? (and now it's 4 HTH or 4 spell attacks?)

Eashamahel wrote:Isn't that the same thing that happened with magic? Used to get 2 HTH attacks at first level, or 2 spell attacks, then it was 4 HTH attacks and 2 spell attacks? (and now it's 4 HTH or 4 spell attacks?)

rat_bastard wrote:I have to disagree, not only was it changed from archery and targeting to just archery but the rules for dodging arrows changed.

That's not actually disagreeing with anything I said?

Eashamahel wrote:

Eashamahel wrote:Isn't that the same thing that happened with magic? Used to get 2 HTH attacks at first level, or 2 spell attacks, then it was 4 HTH attacks and 2 spell attacks? (and now it's 4 HTH or 4 spell attacks?)

rat_bastard wrote:I have to disagree, not only was it changed from archery and targeting to just archery but the rules for dodging arrows changed.

That's not actually disagreeing with anything I said?

I was commenting on this:

Eashamahel wrote:I have always wondered this actually. Is the WP Archery rate of fire a holdover from when characters had two attacks to start that was just never updated for when everyone got two extra?

'

My position is that they changed the archery skill between editions.

So, in closing, somewhere around 102-105PA humans developed the ability to fight and cast spells at roughly twice the speed they were previously able to, but the poor bow and arrow was left out of this incredible advancement in human ability.

Eashamahel wrote:Isn't that the same thing that happened with magic? Used to get 2 HTH attacks at first level, or 2 spell attacks, then it was 4 HTH attacks and 2 spell attacks? (and now it's 4 HTH or 4 spell attacks?)

Yes.

Huh, I wonder why they chose not to 'normalize' archery attacks along with magic and physical attacks.

Eashamahel wrote:Huh, I wonder why they chose not to 'normalize' archery attacks along with magic and physical attacks.

Forgot about them or just didn't think enough people were Archery sorts for anyone to complain about it to matter.

Nightmask wrote:

Eashamahel wrote:Huh, I wonder why they chose not to 'normalize' archery attacks along with magic and physical attacks.

Forgot about them or just didn't think enough people were Archery sorts for anyone to complain about it to matter.

Prefer a good bow myself. Much more adaptable in ammunition, requires some actual PS to use and to be honest if I'm stuck out in the woods...I can't make a C-27 Plasma weapon out twigs and a roll of duct tape..

It's funny, because normally I would say 'hey, this game (in the Ultimate edition) has been around since 2005, I think if they forgot, then by now it would have been corrected', but it really seems just as likely that they did forget as it is that leaving it at the original RoF was a conscious decision. By now, I would think if they did forget about it, they've probably forgotten that they forgot. Ah well, idle musings.

Eashamahel wrote:It's funny, because normally I would say 'hey, this game (in the Ultimate edition) has been around since 2005, I think if they forgot, then by now it would have been corrected', but it really seems just as likely that they did forget as it is that leaving it at the original RoF was a conscious decision. By now, I would think if they did forget about it, they've probably forgotten that they forgot. Ah well, idle musings.

speaking of missed errors does the newest printing still have the C-27 hitting targets out to 488 km?

And people wonder why my Wolfen Techno-Wizard loves his C-27.

Eashamahel wrote:Huh, I wonder why they chose not to 'normalize' archery attacks along with magic and physical attacks.

It took them many years of complaining from customers before they updated magic attacks.
People haven't complained much about archery.

I don't understand why Palladium seems to recognize that shooting a bow isn't tied to how fast you can throw a punch, yet they think that boxing lets me pull my trigger faster.

I also suspect that nobody at Palladium has any firearm experience at all. If they think it takes 3-5 seconds to re-acquire your sight picture and pull the trigger a second time, they're crazy.

--flatline

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Eashamahel wrote:Huh, I wonder why they chose not to 'normalize' archery attacks along with magic and physical attacks.

It took them many years of complaining from customers before they updated magic attacks.
People haven't complained much about archery.

Unless you have vamps..most folks use non-bows or TW Pistols would be one reason.

flatline wrote:I don't understand why Palladium seems to recognize that shooting a bow isn't tied to how fast you can throw a punch, yet they think that boxing lets me pull my trigger faster.

I also suspect that nobody at Palladium has any firearm experience at all. If they think it takes 3-5 seconds to re-acquire your sight picture and pull the trigger a second time, they're crazy.

--flatline

I don't really expect the system to accurately mimic real life just as long as the system itself works well. I realize it's not going to allow realistic use of firearms considering it doesn't allow realistic hand to and combat (which is a far older part of the system), but the hand to hand combat system works pretty well.

Killer Cyborg wrote:It took them many years of complaining from customers before they updated magic attacks.
People haven't complained much about archery.

I had always thought that magic was just supposed to take multiple attacks to use and didn't realize it hadn't always been like that and that originally it was the same as hand to hand attacks. Once I realized that and gave it a try (using just the RMB rules) I liked it a lot better.

flatline wrote:I don't understand why Palladium seems to recognize that shooting a bow isn't tied to how fast you can throw a punch, yet they think that boxing lets me pull my trigger faster.

Because once upon a time, they DID understand that, and firearms had their own ROFs as well.
And **** got real complicated, real fast.
The ROF for archery is just a holdover of the old days.

I also suspect that nobody at Palladium has any firearm experience at all. If they think it takes 3-5 seconds to re-acquire your sight picture and pull the trigger a second time, they're crazy.

The burst/spray rules covered that sort of thing pretty well.
Shame that Palladium abandoned them.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:A lot of the other things you're listing i would never allow; but the one thing i would do by default is ignore the silly archery ROF listed and just go with however many attacks your character has. I know a few archers (via larping and reenactment) who can put 10+ arrows into the air in 15-20 seconds, reasonably accurately (theyll all hit a man-sized target, at least) and they aren't even "pros".

Are they using real bows?

I don't consider a 40lb draw short bow a real bow. Heck, I barely consider my 70lb draw white oak long bow a real bow. I practice with it probably once or twice a month, am VERY strong (I can bench 240) and I'd probably be lucky to get 10 arrows out of my long bow in 20 seconds hitting a man size target at 80yds using arrows stuck in the ground in front of me. 10 in 30, sure. 10 in 20, probably not. 10 in 15, no fuzzy way.

With a 100+lb longbow, not a chance. Maybe not even for a medieval longbow man who practiced a couple of dozen hours a week.

5-6 arrows in a "melee" of 15s, sure thing, but I think it would take some serious, serious skill to do much more than that, with any kind of accuracy and certainly not for very long (either because you run out of arrows in your quiver, or because you are just plain tired from drawing a 100+lb bow a couple of dozen times very quickly).

Arrows should frankly do a lot more damage than they do in the game. I know a lot of things should have they had any realism attached to them. However, a broad head arrow is likely to do at least as much damage to a person as your average short sword and a bodkin head is likely to penetrate armor a heck of a lot better than just about any hand weapon short of something deliberately designed to punch through armor and nothing else (like a pick, or temple sword).

If a short sword does 2D4 damage + PS bonus, a longbow should do at least 2D4 damage + PS bonus, assuming you are using a bow designed for the archer.

There is a big fuzzy difference in penetration and consequently potential damage from what someone with a PS of 10 is able to use and a person with a PS of 20. Its likely the difference between someone using a 50lb draw strength longbow and someone using a 120lb draw strength bow. So PS bonuses SHOULD BE CONFERED TO ARROW DAMAGE. That is, so long as the archer is using a bow designed for them (because it'll have the appropriately heavy draw).

Just like a mythical Hercules with say a supernatural PS of 30 is probably using something like a 1,000+lb draw strength bow slamming out MDC arrows that could smash through a cars engine block.

Or even just an improbably strong mundane human with a PS of 24 would probably be able to use a 250lb draw strength bow and punch an arrow through a steel cuirass at short range and bulge out the back of the cuirass.

rat_bastard wrote:So in the game I am playing My Cyber Knight, Dev Machellan is an archery master at 6th level, My GM allows three things that many would not allow: First, he allows the Cyber Knight Extra attack to apply to Archery ROF, second, he allows the Boxing extra attack to apply to Archery ROF and third he allowed me to take the Advanced archery and archery mastery skills in Rifter #30 (Rifters 30 and 19 are the two greatest rifters for skills). The result is my 6th level cyber knight has 10 archery attacks per round and a +20 to strike with bows (without some sort of accuracy bonus from special arrows or bows) and uses a Sacathath Pine recurve longbow as her focused weapon.

One of the toys she's had worked up is a TW Thunderquiver. Its a Quiver that holds six arrows (silver headed only) directly on the bow that acts similar to a TW thundergun from New West Basically if charged and loaded with six silver arrows it charges them with magical energy that is extremely deadly to Supernatural Evil. She also has access to a teleportation circle that takes her to a Druids circle in England where the local Druids know her as a good friend to the Millennium trees, which keeps her in Arrows.

I don't see why the Cyber Knight's extra attack would NOT apply to all weapons he is proficient with.

Ditto with Boxing, if it works for a rifle, why not a bow?

The Rifter stuff is definitely a game by game decision, but I just read it and it's not that crazy, at least imo.

Have you thought about using two more WP's and getting sharpshooting, archery for your guy? Wouldn't that give him one more attack and some bonuses? I mean if you are going to be a bear, be a grizzly

Athos wrote:

rat_bastard wrote:So in the game I am playing My Cyber Knight, Dev Machellan is an archery master at 6th level, My GM allows three things that many would not allow: First, he allows the Cyber Knight Extra attack to apply to Archery ROF, second, he allows the Boxing extra attack to apply to Archery ROF and third he allowed me to take the Advanced archery and archery mastery skills in Rifter #30 (Rifters 30 and 19 are the two greatest rifters for skills). The result is my 6th level cyber knight has 10 archery attacks per round and a +20 to strike with bows (without some sort of accuracy bonus from special arrows or bows) and uses a Sacathath Pine recurve longbow as her focused weapon.

One of the toys she's had worked up is a TW Thunderquiver. Its a Quiver that holds six arrows (silver headed only) directly on the bow that acts similar to a TW thundergun from New West Basically if charged and loaded with six silver arrows it charges them with magical energy that is extremely deadly to Supernatural Evil. She also has access to a teleportation circle that takes her to a Druids circle in England where the local Druids know her as a good friend to the Millennium trees, which keeps her in Arrows.

I don't see why the Cyber Knight's extra attack would NOT apply to all weapons he is proficient with.

Ditto with Boxing, if it works for a rifle, why not a bow?

The Rifter stuff is definitely a game by game decision, but I just read it and it's not that crazy, at least imo.

Have you thought about using two more WP's and getting sharpshooting, archery for your guy? Wouldn't that give him one more attack and some bonuses? I mean if you are going to be a bear, be a grizzly

My GM decided it was the rifter bonuses or the sharpshooting bonuses, and I agreed. Also he will not let power armor bonuses stack with these bonuses, another decision I endorse.

-Triple-

-DOUBLE-

azazel1024 wrote:There is a big fuzzy difference in penetration and consequently potential damage from what someone with a PS of 10 is able to use and a person with a PS of 20. Its likely the difference between someone using a 50lb draw strength longbow and someone using a 120lb draw strength bow. So PS bonuses SHOULD BE CONFERED TO ARROW DAMAGE. That is, so long as the archer is using a bow designed for them (because it'll have the appropriately heavy draw).

Assuming no one has PS bonuses added, the 2D6 for an arrow (or sword) was pretty reasonable before the massive increases in SDC in the Palladium system as a whole. Now, as toughnesses across the game just kept stacking (PF gave characters SDC, Rifts armour climb, ect), lots of things are just left in ridiculous places.

That being said, a character has to actually be really strong to get a PS bonus on a weapon. I know it's pretty common to get those numbers but I mean really strong. The difference between PS-15 and PS-17 isn't two points, it's an extra 380lbs of lift, or the difference between being a VERY average athlete (ps-15, 300lbs) and being a very strong person (PS-17, 680lbs).

My point in that is, for a bow to only get a damage bonus of draw weight based on PS isn't really reasonable. Not that there shouldn't be some kind of bonus attached to it, but a character with a PS of, say, 20 would (assuming characters are rather abstract and equally strong/skilled at all things) have an absolutely draw dropingly incredible amount of pull, far beyond a +4 to the 2D6.

azazel1024 wrote:

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:A lot of the other things you're listing i would never allow; but the one thing i would do by default is ignore the silly archery ROF listed and just go with however many attacks your character has. I know a few archers (via larping and reenactment) who can put 10+ arrows into the air in 15-20 seconds, reasonably accurately (theyll all hit a man-sized target, at least) and they aren't even "pros".

Are they using real bows?

Not period bows, but real bows, yes. The guy in question uses a ~70lb compound. He used to compete in High School (he's in his early 30s now) but hasn't since, though he still shoots frequently. I've watched him put up quite a volley of arrows on occasion. Yes, the arrows are staged in front of him, though. We're not talking drawing from a quiver.

In terms of damage, i agree wholeheartedly. A heavy-pull bow or crossbow can put out as much, or sometimes more, tissue damage than a bullet from a .45 ACP. A bolt from a 200lb crossbow with a bladed broadhead will come out your back with a piece of you the size of a mans fist. Ive yet to see an RPG rate arrows damage-wse where they should be.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

azazel1024 wrote:

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:A lot of the other things you're listing i would never allow; but the one thing i would do by default is ignore the silly archery ROF listed and just go with however many attacks your character has. I know a few archers (via larping and reenactment) who can put 10+ arrows into the air in 15-20 seconds, reasonably accurately (theyll all hit a man-sized target, at least) and they aren't even "pros".

Are they using real bows?

Not period bows, but real bows, yes. The guy in question uses a ~70lb compound. He used to compete in High School (he's in his early 30s now) but hasn't since, though he still shoots frequently. I've watched him put up quite a volley of arrows on occasion. Yes, the arrows are staged in front of him, though. We're not talking drawing from a quiver.

In terms of damage, i agree wholeheartedly. A heavy-pull bow or crossbow can put out as much, or sometimes more, tissue damage than a bullet from a .45 ACP. A bolt from a 200lb crossbow with a bladed broadhead will come out your back with a piece of you the size of a mans fist. Ive yet to see an RPG rate arrows damage-wse where they should be.

Up north in Canada I saw bow hunters. They could take down a moose in one shot..and I also saw a bow hunting arrow go through a shed..so yeah it makes sense to let the arrows be damage modifier. A good multi-bladed hunting arrow can be deadly enough to contend with the modern weapons of rifts.