Help me build a solid dedicated modern gun user...

[tsh77769]

I want to build a character that is a dedicated modern gun user. NOT race specific. NOT magic ("Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster...").

From Rifts, I would probably start with a Gunfighter or Slinger but other options might include a Paratrooper (they get an extra attack with guns and a strike bonus) or some sort of SF or military specialist type (due to the high number of skills, which could be used for more sharpshooting selections, WP's, quick draw skill, maybe a martial art as per Rfiter #3, or a shooting style as per rifter #11). Maybe some TAG style implementation from Rifter #23.

From HU, I would probably start with a Hardware weapons character.

Let's draw on skills from across the various palldium settings. For example, WP sharpshooting appears in Rifts and HU. WP Quick Draw does not originally appear in Rifts but I think it might be in RUE. I know it is in Robotech Shadow Chronicles. In N&SS one of the skill programs gives you an extra +1 to strike on sniper. In Palladium fantasy Yin-Sloth Jungles there is a variation of the sniper skill that works differently completey and obviously they don't have guns in the fantasy setting, but the point is that this variation fo the skill allows for, conditionally of course, x3 damage. H-H Assasin, in some recent books, like Robotech Shadow chronicles has firearms bonuses now (which, even I think is weird).

As far as equipment selection (at least from Rifts, for HU, Aliens Unlmited has great stuff) the Wilks handguns with the +2 to strike are where it's at. I also really like the Juicer rifle I forget whether it's the JA9 or the JA11, but the one that allows you to shoot manually loaded (single shot) 7.62 SDC round is a favorite. IIRC the standard scope has laser targeting that gives a +1, well, I think pull that scope off and install one of the laser targeting scopes from the equipment section of the GMG that has +3 to strike.

What other ideas do you guys have?

I know it is crazy, but I find the idea of Sea Inquisitor with the martial art of Triad Assasin from Mystic china would be awesome.

tsh77769

[Giant2005]

If you want to make an amazing Gunman, the trick is to stack strike bonuses that don't require an aimed shot to get the benefit of.
A Quick-Flex Alien Paratrooper with H2H: Assassin, empowered by the Book of Heroes (Weapon Master and Weapon Warper are great choices) is probably the best.
You would have +1 strike from being a Quick Flex, +1 from being a Paratrooper, +2 from Weapon Master and up to +3 from H2H: Assassin, in addition to whatever W.P. Bonuses you are getting.
You could also make use of the Laser Aimer Sight from Merc Ops, which gives a +1 bonus without the need for aimed shots and get a customized grip and better balancing from the GMG page 127 for a further +2 to strike. If you are using Shotguns, you could have them sawed off for a further +2.
That is a total of +10-12 to strike before taking W.P. bonuses into account and without having to aim.

[tsh77769]

You have lots of good info there. I think the book of heroes stuff counts, in my eyes, as magic, which I do not want. I also would like to keep race out of it.

I noticed that in Rifts RUE, an operator OCC can tweak weapons for better performance. That could be handy.

tsh77769

[Killer Cyborg]

You'll want a martial art that gives you the One Life, One Shot, One Hit, One Kill power from N&S.

[eliakon]

You'll want a martial art that gives you the One Life, One Shot, One Hit, One Kill power from N&S.

I was under the impression that you cant use martial arts abilities with modern weapons (Triad Assasin being the lone exception)

[Nightmask]

You'll want a martial art that gives you the One Life, One Shot, One Hit, One Kill power from N&S.

I was under the impression that you cant use martial arts abilities with modern weapons (Triad Assasin being the lone exception)

Triad Assassin isn't an exception, it has absolutely no martial art abilities available to it, all its abilities are covered under whatever level the character happens to be at the time. You'd have to change it to make such abilities available.

[guardiandashi]

You'll want a martial art that gives you the One Life, One Shot, One Hit, One Kill power from N&S.

I was under the impression that you cant use martial arts abilities with modern weapons (Triad Assasin being the lone exception)

as I understand the power it is an exception its basically a "sniper" type ability so that you do a focus on a "perfect shot" if you spend at least 15 seconds focusing you get a +1 to hit, each additional 15 seconds you focus get an additional +1 to hit, and if the total strike (with bonuses) is 20 or more its a crit hit

the power explicitly states it works with weapons including modern ones and CANNOT be used unarmed

[Incriptus]

Dinosaur Hunters have a special skill that can be taken for 3 other skills called "Stalking" it has another +1 to strike. (along with several other bonuses)

[ShadowLogan]

Well if you are looking to have the magazines last, you might want to checkout some of the UEEF sidearms in the TSC main book, with a Protoculture Energy Clip, payload can be in the 100s of shots (damage/range off-hand might not be up to Rifts snuff though) in one single clip.

[tsh77769]

The mention of the one shot one life...martial art power actually inspired me to think about a sniping based martial art. Obviuosly the aforementioned power would really help with sniping, howeverm we could also use arts of invisibility to get to, stay in, and get out of position undetected. We could also use the winter/summer body hardening ability to minimize the effects of exposure without shelter while in the filed and especially while in position. A kinfe kata might be useful for sentry removal.

hmmm, I think I'm on to something here.

Bringing it back to rifts...in dinosaur swamp they have Viggo's custom firearms. Basically, you get a high quality gun custom fitted. The strike bonus then counts toward a natural 20.

Why couldn;t taht be applied to other weapons?

In HU they have a light power armor called FREDDIE or some such thing. Anyways, it counteracts recoil and thus provided bonus to hit, even when using burst. Overall I think the FREDDIE power armor is nothing special. However, the idea of having a system that counteracts recoil and or steady one's aim is appealing.

What else can we come up with?

tsh77769

[jaymz]

Anyone think to use the Range Combat Training in the Rifter in place of the standard way of doing things?

Ranged Special Forces would be good for a generic expert and the Ranged Sniper has some realy nice special skills/abilities/bonuses too

[Giant2005]

I forgot to mention the bonuses gained from going through Boot Camp earlier, pretty sure you can get a +1 to strike with guns from that that doesn't require making an aimed shot.

[rat_bastard]

Also armor gadgets and cybernetic implants, Naruni Exoskeleton with multi optics improves your PP and strike bonus, a implanted combat computer and ear implants does not help to strike but the bonuses help a lot of related things like initiative and dodge.

[Dog_O_War]

I highly recommend considering the Headhunter. They get a ton of WPs, as well as pilot skills which would allow you to effectively use any and every gun you come across.

But here's the thing; they are generally tougher than most other OCC choices, and more versatile - that makes for a very solid gun-user. Generally speaking, you're going to have your favorite weapons; the Wilk's Backup is my personal choice as a pistol for the damage and the bonus to hit, and Northern Gun has a collapsible marksman laser rifle in Merc Ops that has the best range/bonus/damage that I've come across.

You can also take Sharpshooting as a headhunter, AND you'll have the excess skills as to make it not a hindering choice.

Basically, as a head-hunter, regardless of situation - you will be covered and adaptable, which is solid as bedrock.

Besides, because you generally only need a modified 8 to hit; your "best bonus" for always being able to hit caps at +6 (because a roll of a 1 always misses).

So breaking it down; you can glean a bonus to hit via WP, weapon, Sharpshooting (and as a cyborg, you literally have the option of buying up your PP to bonus ranges), and equipment. Getting that +6 is easy and you don't even have to take assassin to do so, which means you can either cheap out on your hand-to-hand, or you could take Commando (though assassin is still a good choice thanks to death strikes at earlier levels).

So while OCCs like Paratroopers and Gunfighters seem attractive with their extra bonuses to this and that (and let me say that Paratrooper is an excellent OCC in my not-so-humble opinion), they simply cannot cover many situations that a headhunter can.

For instance; with the headhunter, you can basically use any and every vehicular-mounted weapon, powered armour weapon, and implanted weapon because of who/what you are; you get the skills (or at least have the option of taking the skills) that cover the vehicles that use those weapons.

Those other OCCs don't. Meanwhile, it doesn't matter if you hit that 8+ with your +15 or your +6 to attack; a hit is still a hit.

[Witchcraft]

There's an O.C.C. called the Gun Master that is right up there with Gunslinger -- probably better in a lot of instances. The Gunslinger gets to take Trickshooting and WP Sharpshooting and Sniper I think...or part of his skill package. What I would do is roll up a cyborg out of new west -- something nice with a high P.P. Maybe even that tricked out cyborg body with 4 arms. Take Gunslinger or Gun Master (I forgot what book this is in...it's in Japan? China 2? Probably China 2...but I forgot. You don't even need the Ranged Combat skills from Rifter #11 or Rifter #30.

The only exception would be to take a Paratrooper but they don't level up as well as the Gun Master. Out of the gate they are pretty nasty though and IMMUNE TO FEAR.

Another possibility that I came up with was a "mostly human" Nightbane who had body-conversions with guns. His arm turned into a Sniper Rifle. He had an anti-aircraft flak cannon on his back. He had a tank shell-launcher / howitzer coming off one hip. There are lots of variations that are all legal -- you don't HAVE to look like a monster if you don't want to -- and you got sick bonuses to shoot the weapons that are attached to your body. Then they disappear when you're done. Some NB powers work well like super speed, cone of silence, split personality (the one where you are TWO people, morphus and facade, for the duration), etc.

G'luck!

[slade the sniper]

Anyone think to use the Range Combat Training in the Rifter in place of the standard way of doing things?

Ranged Special Forces would be good for a generic expert and the Ranged Sniper has some realy nice special skills/abilities/bonuses too

What Rifter is that one in?

-STS

[jaymz]

I think it was 10

It should say in the rifter index here on the forums.

[tsh77769]

Dog O War...That is a very well made argument. Thanks, that is really well thought out.

tsh77769

[tsh77769]

I mentioned the alternate shooting styles in the opening of the thread. IIRC they are in Rifter 11.

[tsh77769]

Dog O war...

Can you please talk more about the math of what bonus to strike with guns you need and what about when shooting a moving target or while you are moving. I hope you are better at math than I am.

tsh77769

[ShadowLogan]

If you aren't opposed to cybernetics/bionics:
Targeting sight (pg35 Bionics SB, it is in RMB cybernetics, not sure about RUE off hand. It is +1strike w/ranged weapon, but two of them do not stack, of note Mutants in Orbit has a +2 version on pg91)

[rat_bastard]

I like Gunfighter with some bionic implants, a Gunfighter is basically a Men at Arms version of a Operator with extra attacks with modern weapons. The right rcc like flooper would really make it pop.

[Thinyser]

Depends on how wild you wanna get. If you want a pretty much human character then you should look into super soldiers from HU (and a couple of Rifters EDIT: Rifter 22 p.18 for sure). Its a great combo of tech enhancements and super powers.*



*My GM came up with a "cinematic ammo" super power that would allow a character who had it to enter a gunfight and never run out of ammo as long as he always used his actions to shoot. As soon as he did something else (with the exception of aiming or calling a shot) he would revert to his normal ammo count and if was below zero he had to reload before he could start firing again.

[Thinyser]

Another possibility that I came up with was a "mostly human" Nightbane who had body-conversions with guns. His arm turned into a Sniper Rifle. He had an anti-aircraft flak cannon on his back. He had a tank shell-launcher / howitzer coming off one hip. There are lots of variations that are all legal -- you don't HAVE to look like a monster if you don't want to -- and you got sick bonuses to shoot the weapons that are attached to your body. Then they disappear when you're done. Some NB powers work well like super speed, cone of silence, split personality (the one where you are TWO people, morphus and facade, for the duration), etc.

G'luck!

I like this!
Nightbane rock, one of mine had a sniper rifle arm and a 12ga shotgun arm.

[Rimmerdal]

If you go with the gun-based martial art watch the movie Equilibrium. they have a nice Gun-fu that may inspire ideas. story is not so good...but cool gunfights.

[Dog_O_War]

Dog O war...

Can you please talk more about the math of what bonus to strike with guns you need and what about when shooting a moving target or while you are moving. I hope you are better at math than I am.

tsh77769

I am at work right now, so I don't have my books handy, but I remember most of the numbers.

That said, these are working calculations, NOT exact numbers, to give you an idea of what it is like.


Shooting at a static target, you need a modified 8 to hit.

I moving target can give you a significant penalty; I believe it's in the realm of -1 per 20mph over 50mph (eg: -1 at 70mph, -2 at 90 mph). This speed penalty was meant to be a relative penalty (eg: you are moving at 50mph and your target is moving at 120mph nets you only a -1), however, that is not how its written.

Shooting wild nets you a -6 with either 0 bonuses to strike (from any source) or only half bonuses to strike (from your total bonus); this depends on what skills you have.

Shooting while moving nets you a penalty - I don't remember what that number is, but I do remember that the number penalty is not the worst thing about shooting while moving

Shooting in bursts nets you a penalty. There are peices of equipment that can stablize you while you're moving and shooting. The shooting in bursts rule does not even attempt to create a "spam the target with bullets so you evenually hit" situation, so I would stick with high-damage, single-shot weaponry to keep your bonus high; another way around this is double-blasting weapons (counts as a single-shot, but you're firing more than one shot for more damage).


But here is the most key portion of all the bonuses to hit and miss; generally speaking, most every GM just forgets the more esoteric penalties, instead applying only the "-10 to dodge" rule (which only applies within 50 feet), and typically an arbitrary "a -X feels right due to cover and stuff" rule, even though cover instead provides a hard number that you must meet (ie: your modified 8 to hit turns into a natural roll of X needed, otherwise you hit the cover); a called shot (typically no worse than a -3, with all the benefits of the called shot bonuses) bypasses the cover.


Garnering bonuses to hit and the like are always a levels game; people extoll the virtues of both Sharp-Shooting and HtH Assassin for their bonuses to hit, but the reality of the situation is that you must be at least mid-level to begin to see any real returns from HtH Assassin, and Sharp-Shooting requires both multiple attacks and a really high PP to see any real benefit from. I believe you need an 18 PP before you begin to see bonuses to hit; as a headhunter, you can get this, but it typically costs money for augmentation (not a bad trade-off; augmentation is kind of their thing).

Typically you can get somewhere in the realm of a +3 to stike via equipment; you should be able to find a gun that nets you at least a +2 to stike, and you'll find scopes and laser-targetting devices for an additional +1. Skills are the biggest factor here; sniper, sharp-shooting, WP can net you a high bonus to hit with certain weapons; you should be looking at a +2 to +7 bonus to hit from skills alone. I will note that taking weapons engineer can add a bonus to strike. Then there is your other skills; being a powered armour pilot and having robot combat can net you a handful of bonuses via equipment; take a deep look at the various powered armours out there - some have bonuses via model in addition to robot combat bonuses.

And then there is superior cybernetics and bionics; if you have access to the New West, as well has the Bionics source book, you should be able to eek out additional bonuses to strike and attacks; the cyber-slinger bodies were built for gunslinging and thus can net you all the bonuses you seek whilst still being humanoid enough in dimensions to fit into a suit of powered armour.

Confused yet?

To summarize, you can get hefty bonuses to strike via equipment and skills, without having to rely on a +1 or +2 to hit from a specific OCC. Your penalties to strike moving targets will always be significant, but the GM typically forgets or doesn't know them all (or simply can't math to begin with), so do not focus on these. There is equipment out there that can off-set these penalties, in addition to skills. If you can hit with a +6 without breaking a sweat, then you should be able to easily hit an 11 with an aimed shot with the same amount of ease.

A shooter in Rifts should seek quality of hits over quantity, meaning that both your shots and your attacks should also focus on such.

And here is the biggest pro-tip: long-ranged attacks cannot be dodged (with a very low number of exceptions), so keen eyes and sensors are worth almost as much as big bonus to hit.

I am not sure if I will be able to give you a full assessment with accurate numbers due to being out of town for the holidays, but I will certainly try.

[kaid]

I highly recommend considering the Headhunter. They get a ton of WPs, as well as pilot skills which would allow you to effectively use any and every gun you come across.

But here's the thing; they are generally tougher than most other OCC choices, and more versatile - that makes for a very solid gun-user. Generally speaking, you're going to have your favorite weapons; the Wilk's Backup is my personal choice as a pistol for the damage and the bonus to hit, and Northern Gun has a collapsible marksman laser rifle in Merc Ops that has the best range/bonus/damage that I've come across.

You can also take Sharpshooting as a headhunter, AND you'll have the excess skills as to make it not a hindering choice.

Basically, as a head-hunter, regardless of situation - you will be covered and adaptable, which is solid as bedrock.

Besides, because you generally only need a modified 8 to hit; your "best bonus" for always being able to hit caps at +6 (because a roll of a 1 always misses).

So breaking it down; you can glean a bonus to hit via WP, weapon, Sharpshooting (and as a cyborg, you literally have the option of buying up your PP to bonus ranges), and equipment. Getting that +6 is easy and you don't even have to take assassin to do so, which means you can either cheap out on your hand-to-hand, or you could take Commando (though assassin is still a good choice thanks to death strikes at earlier levels).

So while OCCs like Paratroopers and Gunfighters seem attractive with their extra bonuses to this and that (and let me say that Paratrooper is an excellent OCC in my not-so-humble opinion), they simply cannot cover many situations that a headhunter can.

For instance; with the headhunter, you can basically use any and every vehicular-mounted weapon, powered armour weapon, and implanted weapon because of who/what you are; you get the skills (or at least have the option of taking the skills) that cover the vehicles that use those weapons.

Those other OCCs don't. Meanwhile, it doesn't matter if you hit that 8+ with your +15 or your +6 to attack; a hit is still a hit.

This would usually be my go to recommendation as well. They have an amazing skill set for modern warfare and are great with hand held and vehicular platforms. If you go the partial bionic route they are also stronger and faster and can handle some of the more bulky man portable weapon systems and increased combat survivability.


Another option that I have not seen talked about though that is pretty nifty is the NG LPO officer. They have a very good skill set as well and start off with HTH commando and I believe have access to all the sharp shooting skills as well if the want to get them. Pretty much if the northern gun makes it they can use it from pistols to grizzly combat mechs. Good option if you are going less combat machine and want something more James bond/special forces. I have not done a direct comparison but they probably come out pretty similiar to paratroopers with a bit more emphasis on driving combat mechs and power armor options.

[Colonel_Tetsuya]

...why does Hand to Hand: Assassin keep coming up? Since when do Hand to Hand bonuses add to midern weapons?

[Thinyser]

...why does Hand to Hand: Assassin keep coming up? Since when do Hand to Hand bonuses add to modern weapons?

They don't. AFAIK

[Alrik Vas]

...why does Hand to Hand: Assassin keep coming up? Since when do Hand to Hand bonuses add to modern weapons?

They don't. AFAIK

H2H Assassin grants strike bonuses specifically for firearms at mid-high level.

[ShadowLogan]

...why does Hand to Hand: Assassin keep coming up? Since when do Hand to Hand bonuses add to modern weapons?

They don't. AFAIK

Don't know how long this has been around in HTH: Assassin, but
Rifts Ultimate Edition pg348 (emphasis mine)
"Level 8: +1 additional attack/action per melee round, +1 to strike with guns, and +1 on initiative"
"Level 11: +2 to strike in hand to hand, +1 to strike with a thrown weapon and with guns, and can perform back flip attack."
"Level 15: +2 to strike in hand to hand and +1 to strike with guns."

This is different than the one in Rifts Main Book.

It also grants more actions per melee than other HTH (6 vs 5 for Basic/Expert/MA/Cmdo) in RUE (Japan has ones that equal/surpass), and the second highest initiative bonus (+4, Cmdo is +6, some Japanese do +4)) in the book by Level 15.

[tsh77769]

I first noticed that some books show HTH assassin as having a strike bonus in Robotech Shadow chronicles.

It actually specifically states a bonus for shooting.

Dog O War. That is awesome. I'm wondering if we can compile a thorough and detailed summary of palladium shooting rules as it relates to bonuses and penalties. I know that you say most GM's don't include all the various penalties, and you are right. However, I think that I would actually prefer that they include them so that the specialist has more relative reward over a generalist.

tsh77769

[flatline]

That's a curious bonus to get from your hand to hand training...

--flatline

[Thinyser]

So more detail to my idea above (super soldier from HU and rifter)
4 enhancements and 1 minor power.
Enhancements:
Uncanny Targeting and Throwing HU2 p.119
Augmented Nervous System Rifter 22 p.20
Combat Computer (Calculate trajectories, determine weak points, Anticipate opponents' movements) Rifter 22 p.21
Uncanny Senses Rifter 22 p.22
These give autododge, the ability to dodge incoming ranged attacks (with some bonuses!), critical strike on natural 18,19&20, the ability to shoot or throw from a moving vehicle or horse, while hanging upside down, or while falling/leaping without penalty, some strike bonuses, and +7 initiative


Power:
Extraordinary Speed HU2 p.232 Run at 220+MPH bonuses to initiative strike parry dodge autododge +1 attack per melee.

OR

Flight: Wingless HU2 p.233 pretty much the same as above but no bonus to autododge or initiative (but hey you can fly!)

So essentially you can often shoot first (large initiative bonus) autododge (leap away) any incoming ranged attacks and make a simultaneous shot while leaping and still get bonuses to your autododge and no penalties to the simultaneous shot, and double damage on natural 18-20. Plus if the encounter goes down hill fast you can sprint/fly away! Depending on your GM instead of picking from the various HU skill packages combine this with the gunfighter/gunslinger OCC for skills and more special abilities!
Pretty good combo in my book, even without the gunfighter/slinger OCC benefits.

[Thinyser]

...why does Hand to Hand: Assassin keep coming up? Since when do Hand to Hand bonuses add to modern weapons?

They don't. AFAIK

Don't know how long this has been around in HTH: Assassin, but
Rifts Ultimate Edition pg348 (emphasis mine)
"Level 8: +1 additional attack/action per melee round, +1 to strike with guns, and +1 on initiative"
"Level 11: +2 to strike in hand to hand, +1 to strike with a thrown weapon and with guns, and can perform back flip attack."
"Level 15: +2 to strike in hand to hand and +1 to strike with guns."

This is different than the one in Rifts Main Book.

It also grants more actions per melee than other HTH (6 vs 5 for Basic/Expert/MA/Cmdo) in RUE (Japan has ones that equal/surpass), and the second highest initiative bonus (+4, Cmdo is +6, some Japanese do +4)) in the book by Level 15.

Well color me surprised.

That's a curious bonus to get from your hand to hand training...

--flatline

Aye, While I (and every GM I've played under) allow the PP bonus to be applied to guns the HtH bonus never gets applied to guns since its specifically HAND TO HAND.

[tsh77769]

Yeah, except for the whole NOT race specific, NOT magic thing.

tsh77769

[jaymz]

Paratrooper OCC (Or maybe Special Forces from Mercs) with HTH Commando, WP Sharpshooter, Sniper Skill, TAG training from the Rifter and Ranged Combat Training Sniper (if wanting that reach out and kill someone guy) or Ranged Combat Special Forces (for that more general gun happy guy) both also in the Rifter. I think this is likely the best "modern gun user" you may be able to build without resorting to cybernetics/bionics/powers/or any other augmentations.

[kaid]

Paratrooper OCC (Or maybe Special Forces from Mercs) with HTH Commando, WP Sharpshooter, Sniper Skill, TAG training from the Rifter and Ranged Combat Training Sniper (if wanting that reach out and kill someone guy) or Ranged Combat Special Forces (for that more general gun happy guy) both also in the Rifter. I think this is likely the best "modern gun user" you may be able to build without resorting to cybernetics/bionics/powers/or any other augmentations.

Given I was sick this weekend and was looking around at stuff the paratrooper probably is one of the best just normal gun users if that is what you are looking for and don't want bionics/chinese gunfu.

I never noticed when I first read it they have some built in boosts to modern weapon combat.

The gunfighter from the new west is pretty close though. Their sharpshooting skill is more robust as they have all the trick shot options instead of having to spend a skill for each one. They are great with pistols/rifles and have skills to repair and maintain them as well which is pretty handy.


That said really if you want a solid modern weapon user nearly any OCC can fill that roll. The nice thing about the palladium system the difference between a normal schmoe with a gun and basic WP and somebody who really all out focused on it really is not that huge. The big one is WP sharp shooting and that really matters most if you have exceptionally high PP if you don't have high PP then its not that big of a skill for you other than maybe negating wild firing penalties when riding a horse/motorcycle.

That is one nice thing about the headhunter option. Due to the bionics you can guarantee they will have high enough PP to at least get a few bonuses from the sharp shooting skill.

[kaid]

Yeah, except for the whole NOT race specific, NOT magic thing.

tsh77769

None of it is magic. only thing Quick Flex adds to the munch combo is auto-dodge, a decent PP, and racial modifier to sharpshooting.
It's not even the BEST option.

that would be that space Nautilllus RCC from Thundercloud galaxy, with a Gunfighter OCC, HTH assassin, and "Arc Fire Engaged" (shooting every available gun it has at an enemy every action).
The Book of Heroes is a Supernatural Superman Creator is NOT magic. It turns regular Characters into superpowered heroes (more of a plot power item) with enough powers you can negate every bonus and add a Ton of your own.

And the quick flex munch is not even that much munch given both the paratrooper and the NG LPO have HtH commando as a starting skill or an option for such and they will get auto dodge anyway over time. The biggest advantages to the quick flex are high starting PP to maximize the sharpshooting skill and their boost to sharp shooting.

Really if somebody wants to go into cheesy munch land the gun-fu guy from rifts china pretty much wins things hands down in that category that guy is freaking crazy in the non watered down original version if you don't do the down conversions recommended.

[tsh77769]

My intent is not to bring race or magic into it. I know you are saying that the book of heroes isn't magic. I still don't like it.

I want to focus on skills (from across the megaverse), the shooting rules (what do you really need to hit on average, what about called shots, what about when you are moving or they are or both, etc.), equipment, and cybernetics.

That way, a general foundation of knowledge that can then be applied to the widest array of possible future builds can be established.

My two favorite games are Rifts and HU, so that is why I was looking at them in particular.

I'm cool with stuff from the Rifter and am really digging the HU super soldier stuff.

Interestingly in Robotech Shadow Chronicles, as part of building your character there is a special trait or quirk you can pick or roll for your character that gives them a small bonus. One of them is +2 to strike with all sorts of guns and cannons, a different one is +1 APM.

I was also noticing that in RUE they now have a quick draw skill as a physical skill or WP (I forget which) that anyone can take. So, a Gunfighter could take that IN ADDITION to his OCC bonuses!!

Tsh77769

[tsh77769]

I vote to not even consider the gun master from Rifts China 2 on account of outright ridiculous silliness. Even the concept and flavor of it makes me gag. I just have an irrational hate for it, and I special ordered Rifts China 2 directly from Palladium (unavailable locally) specifically for it in the first place!! YUCCKK!!

tsh77769

[kaid]

My intent is not to bring race or magic into it. I know you are saying that the book of heroes isn't magic. I still don't like it.

I want to focus on skills (from across the megaverse), the shooting rules (what do you really need to hit on average, what about called shots, what about when you are moving or they are or both, etc.), equipment, and cybernetics.

That way, a general foundation of knowledge that can then be applied to the widest array of possible future builds can be established.

My two favorite games are Rifts and HU, so that is why I was looking at them in particular.

I'm cool with stuff from the Rifter and am really digging the HU super soldier stuff.

Interestingly in Robotech Shadow Chronicles, as part of building your character there is a special trait or quirk you can pick or roll for your character that gives them a small bonus. One of them is +2 to strike with all sorts of guns and cannons, a different one is +1 APM.

I was also noticing that in RUE they now have a quick draw skill as a physical skill or WP (I forget which) that anyone can take. So, a Gunfighter could take that IN ADDITION to his OCC bonuses!!

Tsh77769

Yup that is one reason I pretty much was not really bringing up race or unusual combos.

Gunfighters, paratroopers, headhunters, cyberknights, NG LPO are all really good choices for high end modern weapon users. They start with good stats or good boosts for gun usage and have solid access to all the skills necessary to maximize their shooty abilities. For pure focused small arms skill gunfighters, paratroopers are probably top of the list.

After them the other three I mentioned are all pretty close. Headhunters starting cybernetics/bionics means you are not at the mercy of the dice gods when rolling your character and you WILL have sufficient PP to get at least reasonable usage from sharpshooting skills.

Cyberknights get some pretty good physical stats boosts and are both very good with modern weapons and very good against users of modern weapons.

NG LPO pretty similiar starting skill set to the head hunters but start with a better HtH skill as they start with commando and I think head hunters start with expert/martial arts. If evil they can also swap commando for assassin without having to burn skills to get it which is nice. These guys are high end gun fighters with a dash of james bond and counter intelligence thrown in for good measure. Also like the head hunter have excellent access to piloting skills if you find your self wanting/needing to use power armor/robot vehicles or man the weapon systems of such things.

[kaid]

I vote to not even consider the gun master from Rifts China 2 on account of outright ridiculous silliness. Even the concept and flavor of it makes me gag. I just have an irrational hate for it, and I special ordered Rifts China 2 directly from Palladium (unavailable locally) specifically for it in the first place!! YUCCKK!!

tsh77769

I concur I just flat ignore it exists. It is an interesting concept that is just simply way out of wack and depending on the interpretations of the book recommended nerfing it either breaks it to the point the class is pointless or it has almost no effect on it and its way stupid powerful.

I also find it unnecessary normal classed like gun fighters/paratroopers/cyberknights/head hunters if they take the skills to do it are freaking crazy accurate in a system where misses already are pretty low.

[ShadowLogan]

W.P. Paired Weapons (I know I've seen Modern W.P. examples). This would allow one to use two (or more if multi-limbed) guns simultaneously (at least by the rules), effectively doubling APM (not a literal doubling though). One can take this as either a Skill Slot or receive it via HTH at higher levels.

Do not forget about Simultaneous Attacks. You have to gamble a bit with regard to the dice as you lose defensive options (which I would think would include Auto-Dodge).

Neither provide bonuses per say, but they are things that could be used to make a gun user more deadly.

[kaid]

Some OCC start with paired weapons skill. I think the cyber knight and gunfighter do.

In my groups we never let simultaneous attacks work for ranged weaponry. It is listed in the HTH section and when we tried it once in play it just worked badly with ranged weapon. It just turned things into a massive war of attrition as once that starts both sides just keep doing it turn after turn so you wind up with two guys just standing still blazing away at each other neither side ever really missing and he who has the best armor wins.

It also pretty much negates the power of juicers since anytime anybody fought a juicer its just simultaneous attacks every single round so the dodging ability of juicers was just taken out of the picture which seemed wrong.

[Killer Cyborg]

W.P. Paired Weapons (I know I've seen Modern W.P. examples). This would allow one to use two (or more if multi-limbed) guns simultaneously (at least by the rules), effectively doubling APM (not a literal doubling though). One can take this as either a Skill Slot or receive it via HTH at higher levels.

Do not forget about Simultaneous Attacks. You have to gamble a bit with regard to the dice as you lose defensive options (which I would think would include Auto-Dodge).

Neither provide bonuses per say, but they are things that could be used to make a gun user more deadly.

If your character is ambidextrous, then both hands should count as your "regular hand," meaning that your strike penalties would only be -2/-2, not -2/-6.

Also, I've tended to interpret the penalties listed on RUE 327 to be general penalties, regardless of whether the character has WP Paired Weapons, although I might not be correct on that point- the book is unclear.

[jaymz]

Rethinking it......

HU Hardware Weapons + paired weapons + TAG training (Rifter) + ranged combat training special forces or sniper (Rifter). THAT is likely the best combo of non augmented modern gun user.

[Witchcraft]

I never found the Gun Master to be ridiculous to the point of banning and nerfing into uselessness-oblivion. I thought it had a lot of flare and some very specific bonuses (mainly with 9mm handguns) and bonuses to ROF / ammo / gun katas.

It is one of the only specialists in China who embraces guns and martial arts in an Equilibrium-esque kind of flavor.

The others that come to mind are primarily in Rifts Japan -- might be worth looking into. I forgot the names but there's a few Mercenary / PA Pilots / Robots that are pretty sick. I think some of their full-conversion borgs / robots are also pretty kewl too but none of them really have the same "feel" as the Gun Master.

I really like the full-conversion borg / robot body in New West. Is it called "Gaucho?" or "Desperado??" I forgot the name but there's a 2-armed and a 4-armed version (chick) in the pictures and they have the bionic P.P. boosters high enough to really make a difference and M.D.C. armor built in -- PLUS 4-arms!

[tsh77769]

When you talk about the gun master are you meaning the one from mystic china (Triad Assasin)or from Rifts China 2 (Gun master)? I ask because it seems that you may have been confusing them based on your reference to the 9mm part.

tsh77769

[Giant2005]

one of the big nerfs Gun master has was that it was NOT allowed to take Weapon Proficiencies.

They automatically start with W.P.s for all modern weapons. They have Sharpshooting for all weapons and being proficient is a requirement of Sharpshooting.