Forums of the Megaverse®

Flatline has come up with the scenario of a mage sending countless Magic Pigeons to a Coalition City as an irritant, taking advantage of the fact that a MP that cannot find its target will simply hang out at the location.

This thread is to discuss not only that scenario, but any and all other scenarios we can think of that one could within the rules abuse the spell "Magic Pigeon."

Note: Techno-wizardry is the one area that springs to mind that is effectively forbidden as means of abusing one's pigeons(s), for the purposes of this thread.
This is primarily because the rules of techno-wizardry make any invention that a person might come up with simultaneously possible and impossible, because the function, non-function, or malfunction of any home-brew TW device is entirely up to whichever individual GM is running the game.
So it would be both incredibly easy to imagine a TW device that launched Magic Pigeons Of Annihilation at enemies, it would be a pointless exercise, since any GM could either negate or endorse such a device while being well within the official rules of the game.

One of my thoughts is that since the spell creates the pigeon anywhere in your immediate area, you might be able to use the spell to Parry an incoming attack, in a pinch.
Though casting time might be an issue unless one is using a magic device to cast the spell, and I think that the GM would be well within his/her rights to impose penalties.

"Oh crap, that battlefortress is reving it's main gun, and i don't have Impervious to Energy! I'll need to time this just right...i hope Mr. Lazlo doesn't mind me saying hello at this hour..."

I can see it.

Finding people. If you know at least the general area where the person is, you can send them a Magic Pigeon and then track/follow it. "Upon reaching its destination, the pigeon seeks out that person and immediately delivers the message." You can make the message "found you" or something equally appropriate.

Glistam wrote:Finding people. If you know at least the general area where the person is, you can send them a Magic Pigeon and then track/follow it. "Upon reaching its destination, the pigeon seeks out that person and immediately delivers the message." You can make the message "found you" or something equally appropriate.

Right!
I was thinking this in the other thread, where I made the argument that they can track people far better than normal pigeons can- effectively unerringly, as long as the person is within the target area.
If you were trying to track somebody nearby, or detect an invisible foe, you could sic a MP on them, then either follow that MP or listen for its message (perhaps shouting) to be delivered.

When I saw the title of this thread, my immediate thought was 'Poisoning Pigeons in the Park' by Tom Lehrer...

1. Take a vehicle or a suit of armor.
2. Cast Carpet of Adhesion on the vehicle or suit of armor, making the surface area sticky.
3. Have a Diabolist add a Permanence Ward, making the CoA armor/vehicle permanently sticky.
4. Cast Magic Pigeon.
5. Have your Diabolist make the MP permanent as well.
6. Stick the MP onto the armor/vehicle.
7. Repeat until the entire outer portion of the armor/vehicle is covered with indestructible, permanent Magic Pigeons.
8. Enjoy your new semi-indestructible armor/vehicle.

Variation:
Same technique, only build a castle.
For fun, once your indestructible pigeon castle is built, you can have it deliver a message to somebody, flying to that location.
This will probably only work the one time, if at all.

Killer Cyborg wrote:1. Take a vehicle or a suit of armor.
2. Cast Carpet of Adhesion on the vehicle or suit of armor, making the surface area sticky.
3. Have a Diabolist add a Permanence Ward, making the CoA armor/vehicle permanently sticky.
4. Cast Magic Pigeon.
5. Have your Diabolist make the MP permanent as well.
6. Stick the MP onto the armor/vehicle.
7. Repeat until the entire outer portion of the armor/vehicle is covered with indestructible, permanent Magic Pigeons.
8. Enjoy your new semi-indestructible armor/vehicle.

Variation:
Same technique, only build a castle.
For fun, once your indestructible pigeon castle is built, you can have it deliver a message to somebody, flying to that location.
This will probably only work the one time, if at all.

The mental images these conjure up...incredible!

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Glistam wrote:Finding people. If you know at least the general area where the person is, you can send them a Magic Pigeon and then track/follow it. "Upon reaching its destination, the pigeon seeks out that person and immediately delivers the message." You can make the message "found you" or something equally appropriate.

Right!
I was thinking this in the other thread, where I made the argument that they can track people far better than normal pigeons can- effectively unerringly, as long as the person is within the target area.
If you were trying to track somebody nearby, or detect an invisible foe, you could sic a MP on them, then either follow that MP or listen for its message (perhaps shouting) to be delivered.

And from the other thread, you pointed out that due to the vaugness in the description, one could rule that the only way to trap it is by using magic. If that's correct, then should the magic pigeon be able to fly through (non-magical) walls to get to the person?

The Beast wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Glistam wrote:Finding people. If you know at least the general area where the person is, you can send them a Magic Pigeon and then track/follow it. "Upon reaching its destination, the pigeon seeks out that person and immediately delivers the message." You can make the message "found you" or something equally appropriate.

Right!
I was thinking this in the other thread, where I made the argument that they can track people far better than normal pigeons can- effectively unerringly, as long as the person is within the target area.
If you were trying to track somebody nearby, or detect an invisible foe, you could sic a MP on them, then either follow that MP or listen for its message (perhaps shouting) to be delivered.

And from the other thread, you pointed out that due to the vaugness in the description, one could rule that the only way to trap it is by using magic. If that's correct, then should the magic pigeon be able to fly through (non-magical) walls to get to the person?

I really can't tell. That IS one logical interpretation of the description.
Technically, we are told "normal weapons cannot... capture the pigeon."
Walls aren't generally "weapons," but if you can't catch a pigeon with a net or other physical weapon, then it does indicate at least a degree of intangibility.

(Which actually indicates that you might well NOT be able to parry with a MP, or use them to protect your armor/vehicle- they might be intangible as a rule, impervious to physical attacks. That would leave some question as to why CoA and Magic Net can catch them... but magic is funky.)

So what happens to a Magic Pigeon that delivers its message? I'm reading the spell and it doesn't say the pigeon disappears... so does the pigeon just follow the person around for 2 months?

The Magic Pigeon can deliver a "written message," which implies that it can carry objects. How much can it carry? Can it carry explosives? Letter bombs? White powders?

I am pretty sure they disappear.
Now if you want another amusing way to abuse this one.
Go into a sanctum spell.
close the door
cast a lot of magic pigeon spells (locating magic doesn't work in the sanctum...)
dispel magic on the sanctum
watch in amusement as a flock of pigeons goes after your victim

Glistam wrote:The Magic Pigeon can deliver a "written message," which implies that it can carry objects. How much can it carry? Can it carry explosives? Letter bombs? White powders?

Or a letter with a curse written into it that's activated by opening it?

wyrmraker wrote:

Glistam wrote:The Magic Pigeon can deliver a "written message," which implies that it can carry objects. How much can it carry? Can it carry explosives? Letter bombs? White powders?

Or a letter with a curse written into it that's activated by opening it?

10th Level Spell "Wards." A Curse: Phobia or a Curse: Minor.

I remember the Curse of Boils from 1st Ed PF. That was a devastatingly horrible spell that none of my GMs would ever let me have.

I'm not saying they were wrong to not let me have it. I'm just saying.

Glistam wrote:The Magic Pigeon can deliver a "written message," which implies that it can carry objects. How much can it carry? Can it carry explosives? Letter bombs? White powders?

Tracking device?
Cameras?

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Glistam wrote:The Magic Pigeon can deliver a "written message," which implies that it can carry objects. How much can it carry? Can it carry explosives? Letter bombs? White powders?

Tracking device?
Cameras?

Or even a roll of film, or an SD card. Make the spell a part of an espionage agent's utility kit.

That's an idea, there. I can imagine a guy slipping around guards invisibly, maybe climb a wall across the street from an Intel dump, teleport in, swipe the goods and send a pigeon off to his employer. Then off to cocktails with some sexy d-bee with blue skin.

wyrmraker wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Glistam wrote:The Magic Pigeon can deliver a "written message," which implies that it can carry objects. How much can it carry? Can it carry explosives? Letter bombs? White powders?

Tracking device?
Cameras?

Or even a roll of film, or an SD card. Make the spell a part of an espionage agent's utility kit.

Personally I'd limit it to what a normal pigeon would be able to carry, so most of the above would be good.

Too bad that magic pigeons probably don't poop.

--flatline

I'd say the spell requires an amendment if they don't, bwahahaha.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

The Beast wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Glistam wrote:Finding people. If you know at least the general area where the person is, you can send them a Magic Pigeon and then track/follow it. "Upon reaching its destination, the pigeon seeks out that person and immediately delivers the message." You can make the message "found you" or something equally appropriate.

Right!
I was thinking this in the other thread, where I made the argument that they can track people far better than normal pigeons can- effectively unerringly, as long as the person is within the target area.
If you were trying to track somebody nearby, or detect an invisible foe, you could sic a MP on them, then either follow that MP or listen for its message (perhaps shouting) to be delivered.

And from the other thread, you pointed out that due to the vaugness in the description, one could rule that the only way to trap it is by using magic. If that's correct, then should the magic pigeon be able to fly through (non-magical) walls to get to the person?

I really can't tell. That IS one logical interpretation of the description.
Technically, we are told "normal weapons cannot... capture the pigeon."
Walls aren't generally "weapons," but if you can't catch a pigeon with a net or other physical weapon, then it does indicate at least a degree of intangibility.

(Which actually indicates that you might well NOT be able to parry with a MP, or use them to protect your armor/vehicle- they might be intangible as a rule, impervious to physical attacks. That would leave some question as to why CoA and Magic Net can catch them... but magic is funky.)

Intangible probably is one of the better all around ways to make sense of how the power seems to work.

kaid wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

The Beast wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Glistam wrote:Finding people. If you know at least the general area where the person is, you can send them a Magic Pigeon and then track/follow it. "Upon reaching its destination, the pigeon seeks out that person and immediately delivers the message." You can make the message "found you" or something equally appropriate.

Right!
I was thinking this in the other thread, where I made the argument that they can track people far better than normal pigeons can- effectively unerringly, as long as the person is within the target area.
If you were trying to track somebody nearby, or detect an invisible foe, you could sic a MP on them, then either follow that MP or listen for its message (perhaps shouting) to be delivered.

And from the other thread, you pointed out that due to the vaugness in the description, one could rule that the only way to trap it is by using magic. If that's correct, then should the magic pigeon be able to fly through (non-magical) walls to get to the person?

I really can't tell. That IS one logical interpretation of the description.
Technically, we are told "normal weapons cannot... capture the pigeon."
Walls aren't generally "weapons," but if you can't catch a pigeon with a net or other physical weapon, then it does indicate at least a degree of intangibility.

(Which actually indicates that you might well NOT be able to parry with a MP, or use them to protect your armor/vehicle- they might be intangible as a rule, impervious to physical attacks. That would leave some question as to why CoA and Magic Net can catch them... but magic is funky.)

Intangible probably is one of the better all around ways to make sense of how the power seems to work.

But then it shouldn't be able to carry a written message.

The Beast wrote:

kaid wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

The Beast wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:
Right!
I was thinking this in the other thread, where I made the argument that they can track people far better than normal pigeons can- effectively unerringly, as long as the person is within the target area.
If you were trying to track somebody nearby, or detect an invisible foe, you could sic a MP on them, then either follow that MP or listen for its message (perhaps shouting) to be delivered.

And from the other thread, you pointed out that due to the vaugness in the description, one could rule that the only way to trap it is by using magic. If that's correct, then should the magic pigeon be able to fly through (non-magical) walls to get to the person?

I really can't tell. That IS one logical interpretation of the description.
Technically, we are told "normal weapons cannot... capture the pigeon."
Walls aren't generally "weapons," but if you can't catch a pigeon with a net or other physical weapon, then it does indicate at least a degree of intangibility.

(Which actually indicates that you might well NOT be able to parry with a MP, or use them to protect your armor/vehicle- they might be intangible as a rule, impervious to physical attacks. That would leave some question as to why CoA and Magic Net can catch them... but magic is funky.)

Intangible probably is one of the better all around ways to make sense of how the power seems to work.

But then it shouldn't be able to carry a written message.

Perhaps it simply reforms if it takes damage.

--flatline

flatline wrote:

The Beast wrote:But then it shouldn't be able to carry a written message.

Perhaps it simply reforms if it takes damage.

--flatline

There's nothing indicating that it CAN take damage.

Also, it's unclear whether the MP carries an actual physical message or not.
It certainly doesn't carry a verbal message.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

flatline wrote:

The Beast wrote:But then it shouldn't be able to carry a written message.

Perhaps it simply reforms if it takes damage.

--flatline

There's nothing indicating that it CAN take damage.

Also, it's unclear whether the MP carries an actual physical message or not.
It certainly doesn't carry a verbal message.

RMB, page 177 (I don't have my RUE in front of me):
"The magic pigeon is able to deliver a spoken (30 words or less) or written message to anyone, anyplace in this world (in the same dimension)."

wyrmraker wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

flatline wrote:

The Beast wrote:But then it shouldn't be able to carry a written message.

Perhaps it simply reforms if it takes damage.

--flatline

There's nothing indicating that it CAN take damage.

Also, it's unclear whether the MP carries an actual physical message or not.
It certainly doesn't carry a verbal message.

RMB, page 177 (I don't have my RUE in front of me):
"The magic pigeon is able to deliver a spoken (30 words or less) or written message to anyone, anyplace in this world (in the same dimension)."

Right.
Now, when it delivers that spoken message, do you think for a moment that the pigeon is physically carrying the spoken message?

Killer Cyborg wrote:

wyrmraker wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

flatline wrote:

The Beast wrote:But then it shouldn't be able to carry a written message.

Perhaps it simply reforms if it takes damage.

--flatline

There's nothing indicating that it CAN take damage.

Also, it's unclear whether the MP carries an actual physical message or not.
It certainly doesn't carry a verbal message.

RMB, page 177 (I don't have my RUE in front of me):
"The magic pigeon is able to deliver a spoken (30 words or less) or written message to anyone, anyplace in this world (in the same dimension)."

Right.
Now, when it delivers that spoken message, do you think for a moment that the pigeon is physically carrying the spoken message?

I think it can either repeat the message in the caster's voice, or carry a slip of paper like a messenger pigeon. Either one would be eligible, but not both in the same casting. That's what the text says to me.

wyrmraker wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Now, when it delivers that spoken message, do you think for a moment that the pigeon is physically carrying the spoken message?

I think it can either repeat the message in the caster's voice, or carry a slip of paper like a messenger pigeon. Either one would be eligible, but not both in the same casting. That's what the text says to me.

What makes you think that it can carry a slip of paper?

Killer Cyborg wrote:

wyrmraker wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Now, when it delivers that spoken message, do you think for a moment that the pigeon is physically carrying the spoken message?

I think it can either repeat the message in the caster's voice, or carry a slip of paper like a messenger pigeon. Either one would be eligible, but not both in the same casting. That's what the text says to me.

What makes you think that it can carry a slip of paper?

The spell description I quoted states "or written message". It seems pretty clear-cut to me; I can't really see any other way of viewing that one.

wyrmraker wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

wyrmraker wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Now, when it delivers that spoken message, do you think for a moment that the pigeon is physically carrying the spoken message?

I think it can either repeat the message in the caster's voice, or carry a slip of paper like a messenger pigeon. Either one would be eligible, but not both in the same casting. That's what the text says to me.

What makes you think that it can carry a slip of paper?

The spell description I quoted states "or written message". It seems pretty clear-cut to me; I can't really see any other way of viewing that one.

So the way you see things:
-The ONLY way that it makes sense for a Magic Pigeon to deliver a spoken message is for the pigeon to be able to recite the message verbatim in the speaker's own voice, NOT to hand the pigeon a tiny cassette tape or other recording devices.
-The ONLY way that it makes sense for a Magic Pigeon to deliver a written message is to carry a physical piece of paper, NOT to write the message out itself, or to produce an illusory scroll, or to project the words onto the nearest handy surface, or anything else.

What I'm getting at:
IF the pigeon has magical "I'm recording what you're saying, and I can play it back later" powers that pigeons don't normally have, that's fine- it's magic.
So why wouldn't a pigeon be just as likely to have "I'm recording everything you've written, and I can write (or project, or whatever) it back out to you later" powers as well?
If the pigeon doesn't have to carry a physical recording of an audio message in order to deliver it, why would it have to carry a physical recording of a visual message in order to deliver it?
Conversely, if the pigeon does have to physically carry a piece of paper in order to deliver a written message, why would it NOT have to carry a micro-cassette or other physical recording of an audio message?

For that matter, if the pigeon is physically carrying the written message, why is the message limited to 30 words or less? Why can't you just write small? Or use a micro-dot? Or otherwise take measures to bypass that 30 word limit?
Perhaps because it's not actually a physical piece of paper, or other physical device.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

wyrmraker wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

wyrmraker wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Now, when it delivers that spoken message, do you think for a moment that the pigeon is physically carrying the spoken message?

I think it can either repeat the message in the caster's voice, or carry a slip of paper like a messenger pigeon. Either one would be eligible, but not both in the same casting. That's what the text says to me.

What makes you think that it can carry a slip of paper?

The spell description I quoted states "or written message". It seems pretty clear-cut to me; I can't really see any other way of viewing that one.

So the way you see things:
-The ONLY way that it makes sense for a Magic Pigeon to deliver a spoken message is for the pigeon to be able to recite the message verbatim in the speaker's own voice, NOT to hand the pigeon a tiny cassette tape or other recording devices.
-The ONLY way that it makes sense for a Magic Pigeon to deliver a written message is to carry a physical piece of paper, NOT to write the message out itself, or to produce an illusory scroll, or to project the words onto the nearest handy surface, or anything else.

What I'm getting at:
IF the pigeon has magical "I'm recording what you're saying, and I can play it back later" powers that pigeons don't normally have, that's fine- it's magic.
So why wouldn't a pigeon be just as likely to have "I'm recording everything you've written, and I can write (or project, or whatever) it back out to you later" powers as well?
If the pigeon doesn't have to carry a physical recording of an audio message in order to deliver it, why would it have to carry a physical recording of a visual message in order to deliver it?
Conversely, if the pigeon does have to physically carry a piece of paper in order to deliver a written message, why would it NOT have to carry a micro-cassette or other physical recording of an audio message?

For that matter, if the pigeon is physically carrying the written message, why is the message limited to 30 words or less? Why can't you just write small? Or use a micro-dot? Or otherwise take measures to bypass that 30 word limit?
Perhaps because it's not actually a physical piece of paper, or other physical device.

I see where you're going with this, but I think that you're over-thinking this one. Usually the simplest answer is the most applicable on most of Palladium's spell system. And if it doesn't implicitly state how an effect takes place in the spell description, then it's up to the GM's interpretation of how it functions.

wyrmraker wrote:I see where you're going with this, but I think that you're over-thinking this one. Usually the simplest answer is the most applicable on most of Palladium's spell system. And if it doesn't implicitly state how an effect takes place in the spell description, then it's up to the GM's interpretation of how it functions.

The thing is, I don't think that:
"The Magic Pigeon cannot be harmed or captured/constrained, but isn't intangible. Or it IS intangible, but can carry physical objects anyway. Also, it has magical tape-recorder powers. And it can only carry a piece of paper if that piece of paper has 30 or fewer words written on it."

Is simpler than:
"The Magic Pigeon cannot be harmed or captured/constrained because it is intangible. It can somehow record and playback audio and written messages."

wyrmraker wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:So the way you see things:
-The ONLY way that it makes sense for a Magic Pigeon to deliver a spoken message is for the pigeon to be able to recite the message verbatim in the speaker's own voice, NOT to hand the pigeon a tiny cassette tape or other recording devices.
-The ONLY way that it makes sense for a Magic Pigeon to deliver a written message is to carry a physical piece of paper, NOT to write the message out itself, or to produce an illusory scroll, or to project the words onto the nearest handy surface, or anything else.

What I'm getting at:
IF the pigeon has magical "I'm recording what you're saying, and I can play it back later" powers that pigeons don't normally have, that's fine- it's magic.
So why wouldn't a pigeon be just as likely to have "I'm recording everything you've written, and I can write (or project, or whatever) it back out to you later" powers as well?
If the pigeon doesn't have to carry a physical recording of an audio message in order to deliver it, why would it have to carry a physical recording of a visual message in order to deliver it?
Conversely, if the pigeon does have to physically carry a piece of paper in order to deliver a written message, why would it NOT have to carry a micro-cassette or other physical recording of an audio message?

For that matter, if the pigeon is physically carrying the written message, why is the message limited to 30 words or less? Why can't you just write small? Or use a micro-dot? Or otherwise take measures to bypass that 30 word limit?
Perhaps because it's not actually a physical piece of paper, or other physical device.

I see where you're going with this, but I think that you're over-thinking this one. Usually the simplest answer is the most applicable on most of Palladium's spell system. And if it doesn't implicitly state how an effect takes place in the spell description, then it's up to the GM's interpretation of how it functions.

Probably more that 'or written message' means 'a written slip of paper with however many words you can write onto it', as the 30 words limitation is pretty clearly meant to reflect how many spoken words the pigeon can 'carry' and pass on to the target and not how many words you can write onto the slip of paper.

Nightmask wrote:

wyrmraker wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:So the way you see things:
-The ONLY way that it makes sense for a Magic Pigeon to deliver a spoken message is for the pigeon to be able to recite the message verbatim in the speaker's own voice, NOT to hand the pigeon a tiny cassette tape or other recording devices.
-The ONLY way that it makes sense for a Magic Pigeon to deliver a written message is to carry a physical piece of paper, NOT to write the message out itself, or to produce an illusory scroll, or to project the words onto the nearest handy surface, or anything else.

What I'm getting at:
IF the pigeon has magical "I'm recording what you're saying, and I can play it back later" powers that pigeons don't normally have, that's fine- it's magic.
So why wouldn't a pigeon be just as likely to have "I'm recording everything you've written, and I can write (or project, or whatever) it back out to you later" powers as well?
If the pigeon doesn't have to carry a physical recording of an audio message in order to deliver it, why would it have to carry a physical recording of a visual message in order to deliver it?
Conversely, if the pigeon does have to physically carry a piece of paper in order to deliver a written message, why would it NOT have to carry a micro-cassette or other physical recording of an audio message?

For that matter, if the pigeon is physically carrying the written message, why is the message limited to 30 words or less? Why can't you just write small? Or use a micro-dot? Or otherwise take measures to bypass that 30 word limit?
Perhaps because it's not actually a physical piece of paper, or other physical device.

I see where you're going with this, but I think that you're over-thinking this one. Usually the simplest answer is the most applicable on most of Palladium's spell system. And if it doesn't implicitly state how an effect takes place in the spell description, then it's up to the GM's interpretation of how it functions.

Probably more that 'or written message' means 'a written slip of paper with however many words you can write onto it', as the 30 words limitation is pretty clearly meant to reflect how many spoken words the pigeon can 'carry' and pass on to the target and not how many words you can write onto the slip of paper.

I always saw it as either the pigeon carried a verbal message, or turned into the paper with the written message on it. *shrugs*

Killer Cyborg wrote:

wyrmraker wrote:I see where you're going with this, but I think that you're over-thinking this one. Usually the simplest answer is the most applicable on most of Palladium's spell system. And if it doesn't implicitly state how an effect takes place in the spell description, then it's up to the GM's interpretation of how it functions.

The thing is, I don't think that:
"The Magic Pigeon cannot be harmed or captured/constrained, but isn't intangible. Or it IS intangible, but can carry physical objects anyway. Also, it has magical tape-recorder powers. And it can only carry a piece of paper if that piece of paper has 30 or fewer words written on it."

Is simpler than:
"The Magic Pigeon cannot be harmed or captured/constrained because it is intangible. It can somehow record and playback audio and written messages."

Okay, okay. Excellent points. I can'r really argue with any of them; they're all very valid. I wouldn't go that route with Magic Pigeon in my game, mostly because it descends from Palladium Fantasy. And let's face the fact that KS tends to think in a very linear fashion when it comes to the spells he created.
Based on KS's track record, I still maintain that my view is the more accurate one in line with canon.

BoM p113: "The Magic Pigeon is able to deliver a spoken (30 words or less) or written message"

We know from the real world how pigeons deliver written messages. It's strange to me the ability of the Magic Pigeon to deliver written messages would even be a point for debate.

Of course, just because the pigeon can't be harmed doesn't mean that the paper slip clipped to its leg is similarly immune to harm...

--flatline

flatline wrote:BoM p113: "The Magic Pigeon is able to deliver a spoken (30 words or less) or written message"

We know from the real world how pigeons deliver written messages. It's strange to me the ability of the Magic Pigeon to deliver written messages would even be a point for debate.

Of course, just because the pigeon can't be harmed doesn't mean that the paper slip clipped to its leg is similarly immune to harm...

--flatline

why wouldn't it be in debate? The spell doesn't say anything other than 'can deliver a written message' It clearly doesn't say 'has a message capsule' and there is no talk about having to retrieve a capsule, or handle the message carefully, nor about if you need it written prior. Thus there is a HUGE amount of grey in this spell. As I said previously for all my time playing I just assumed the spell conjured a piece of paper when the 'pigeon' got to is destination. *shrugs*

eliakon wrote:

flatline wrote:BoM p113: "The Magic Pigeon is able to deliver a spoken (30 words or less) or written message"

We know from the real world how pigeons deliver written messages. It's strange to me the ability of the Magic Pigeon to deliver written messages would even be a point for debate.

Of course, just because the pigeon can't be harmed doesn't mean that the paper slip clipped to its leg is similarly immune to harm...

--flatline

why wouldn't it be in debate? The spell doesn't say anything other than 'can deliver a written message' It clearly doesn't say 'has a message capsule' and there is no talk about having to retrieve a capsule, or handle the message carefully, nor about if you need it written prior. Thus there is a HUGE amount of grey in this spell. As I said previously for all my time playing I just assumed the spell conjured a piece of paper when the 'pigeon' got to is destination. *shrugs*

Why would there be any time wasted on something as obvious as that? It would be a lot of wasted verbage to go, 'can deliver a written message that the receiver will have to remove from the bird's leg where it will be clipped as it would be for a normal carrier pidgeon'. So any grey is self-generated as it's certainly not in the spell.

Nightmask wrote:

eliakon wrote:

flatline wrote:BoM p113: "The Magic Pigeon is able to deliver a spoken (30 words or less) or written message"

We know from the real world how pigeons deliver written messages. It's strange to me the ability of the Magic Pigeon to deliver written messages would even be a point for debate.

Of course, just because the pigeon can't be harmed doesn't mean that the paper slip clipped to its leg is similarly immune to harm...

--flatline

why wouldn't it be in debate? The spell doesn't say anything other than 'can deliver a written message' It clearly doesn't say 'has a message capsule' and there is no talk about having to retrieve a capsule, or handle the message carefully, nor about if you need it written prior. Thus there is a HUGE amount of grey in this spell. As I said previously for all my time playing I just assumed the spell conjured a piece of paper when the 'pigeon' got to is destination. *shrugs*

Why would there be any time wasted on something as obvious as that? It would be a lot of wasted verbage to go, 'can deliver a written message that the receiver will have to remove from the bird's leg where it will be clipped as it would be for a normal carrier pidgeon'. So any grey is self-generated as it's certainly not in the spell.

have you ever tried to capsule a pigeon? should it just take 3-5 seconds? (or actually zero seconds since the spell goes off when cast, there is no mention of a delay while you attach messages/dictate/what ever.) Why not just assume that its magic, and casting the spell creates a little magic bird that flies off and delivers the message that the caster is thinking? Why assume that a magic spell has to have ANY basis or connection to our mundane reality?

eliakon wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

eliakon wrote:

flatline wrote:BoM p113: "The Magic Pigeon is able to deliver a spoken (30 words or less) or written message"

We know from the real world how pigeons deliver written messages. It's strange to me the ability of the Magic Pigeon to deliver written messages would even be a point for debate.

Of course, just because the pigeon can't be harmed doesn't mean that the paper slip clipped to its leg is similarly immune to harm...

--flatline

why wouldn't it be in debate? The spell doesn't say anything other than 'can deliver a written message' It clearly doesn't say 'has a message capsule' and there is no talk about having to retrieve a capsule, or handle the message carefully, nor about if you need it written prior. Thus there is a HUGE amount of grey in this spell. As I said previously for all my time playing I just assumed the spell conjured a piece of paper when the 'pigeon' got to is destination. *shrugs*

Why would there be any time wasted on something as obvious as that? It would be a lot of wasted verbage to go, 'can deliver a written message that the receiver will have to remove from the bird's leg where it will be clipped as it would be for a normal carrier pidgeon'. So any grey is self-generated as it's certainly not in the spell.

have you ever tried to capsule a pigeon? should it just take 3-5 seconds? (or actually zero seconds since the spell goes off when cast, there is no mention of a delay while you attach messages/dictate/what ever.) Why not just assume that its magic, and casting the spell creates a little magic bird that flies off and delivers the message that the caster is thinking? Why assume that a magic spell has to have ANY basis or connection to our mundane reality?

Because if it didn't have any basis or connection to mundane reality then it wouldn't either be comprehensible or have anything about it that one could define or identify making it useless. Just because it's magic doesn't mean that it has no rules or things one can expect of it, it must if not then one couldn't use it because there'd be nothing about it they could understand to make use of it.

The Magical Pigeon spell creates a magical version of a pigeon, it's clearly defined by that intent and construction and its purpose to deliver a message to a target. Because of that it's bound by certain things, it can't magically explode into flames at random because that's not how it was built, or find anyone anywhere it has to be given some target location to search, and so on.

Nightmask wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

eliakon wrote:

flatline wrote:BoM p113: "The Magic Pigeon is able to deliver a spoken (30 words or less) or written message"

We know from the real world how pigeons deliver written messages. It's strange to me the ability of the Magic Pigeon to deliver written messages would even be a point for debate.

Of course, just because the pigeon can't be harmed doesn't mean that the paper slip clipped to its leg is similarly immune to harm...

--flatline

why wouldn't it be in debate? The spell doesn't say anything other than 'can deliver a written message' It clearly doesn't say 'has a message capsule' and there is no talk about having to retrieve a capsule, or handle the message carefully, nor about if you need it written prior. Thus there is a HUGE amount of grey in this spell. As I said previously for all my time playing I just assumed the spell conjured a piece of paper when the 'pigeon' got to is destination. *shrugs*

Why would there be any time wasted on something as obvious as that? It would be a lot of wasted verbage to go, 'can deliver a written message that the receiver will have to remove from the bird's leg where it will be clipped as it would be for a normal carrier pidgeon'. So any grey is self-generated as it's certainly not in the spell.

have you ever tried to capsule a pigeon? should it just take 3-5 seconds? (or actually zero seconds since the spell goes off when cast, there is no mention of a delay while you attach messages/dictate/what ever.) Why not just assume that its magic, and casting the spell creates a little magic bird that flies off and delivers the message that the caster is thinking? Why assume that a magic spell has to have ANY basis or connection to our mundane reality?

Because if it didn't have any basis or connection to mundane reality then it wouldn't either be comprehensible or have anything about it that one could define or identify making it useless. Just because it's magic doesn't mean that it has no rules or things one can expect of it, it must if not then one couldn't use it because there'd be nothing about it they could understand to make use of it.

The Magical Pigeon spell creates a magical version of a pigeon, it's clearly defined by that intent and construction and its purpose to deliver a message to a target. Because of that it's bound by certain things, it can't magically explode into flames at random because that's not how it was built, or find anyone anywhere it has to be given some target location to search, and so on.

that is a strawman argument though. It doesn't explode because its a spell to carry a message. Its magic that pretty much means right there it doesn't follow the rules of reality that we know. Just because it follows the rules of magic, doesn't mean that we cant know anything about it. We know a ton.
We know that it conjures something that looks like a pigeon, that flies to a target, that cant be destroyed by normal weapons, and when it gets to the target (eventually) gives that person a message.
We don't have to assume anything more than that. We don't need to assume that the pigeon carries a tiny piece of paper...heck you can send a pigeon to the center of a star, and the person will get the message! *shrugs* it would take a long time to get there at 30 miles per hour

eliakon wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Because if it didn't have any basis or connection to mundane reality then it wouldn't either be comprehensible or have anything about it that one could define or identify making it useless. Just because it's magic doesn't mean that it has no rules or things one can expect of it, it must if not then one couldn't use it because there'd be nothing about it they could understand to make use of it.

The Magical Pigeon spell creates a magical version of a pigeon, it's clearly defined by that intent and construction and its purpose to deliver a message to a target. Because of that it's bound by certain things, it can't magically explode into flames at random because that's not how it was built, or find anyone anywhere it has to be given some target location to search, and so on.

that is a strawman argument though. It doesn't explode because its a spell to carry a message. Its magic that pretty much means right there it doesn't follow the rules of reality that we know. Just because it follows the rules of magic, doesn't mean that we cant know anything about it. We know a ton.
We know that it conjures something that looks like a pigeon, that flies to a target, that cant be destroyed by normal weapons, and when it gets to the target (eventually) gives that person a message.
We don't have to assume anything more than that. We don't need to assume that the pigeon carries a tiny piece of paper...heck you can send a pigeon to the center of a star, and the person will get the message! *shrugs* it would take a long time to get there at 30 miles per hour

That's not a strawman argument, 'why assume it has any basis in mundane reality' is. It does follow the rules of reality, magic is part of reality therefor it follows the rules of reality that apply to magic. No, we don't have to assume it carries a piece of paper since we're already TOLD it can carry a piece of paper. We certainly can't claim that 'or a written message' somehow doesn't mean it can carry a piece of paper because clearly it must be able to transport a piece of paper because we're told it can. Might as well claim someone is just 'assuming' a 10 shot e-clip has 10 shots when we're told it's a 10-shot e-clip. We're told the magical pigeon can deliver a written message so it must be able to transport what the message is written on, that should be self-evident. It doesn't really matter how it's carrying the paper just that we know it can.

Nightmask wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Because if it didn't have any basis or connection to mundane reality then it wouldn't either be comprehensible or have anything about it that one could define or identify making it useless. Just because it's magic doesn't mean that it has no rules or things one can expect of it, it must if not then one couldn't use it because there'd be nothing about it they could understand to make use of it.

The Magical Pigeon spell creates a magical version of a pigeon, it's clearly defined by that intent and construction and its purpose to deliver a message to a target. Because of that it's bound by certain things, it can't magically explode into flames at random because that's not how it was built, or find anyone anywhere it has to be given some target location to search, and so on.

that is a strawman argument though. It doesn't explode because its a spell to carry a message. Its magic that pretty much means right there it doesn't follow the rules of reality that we know. Just because it follows the rules of magic, doesn't mean that we cant know anything about it. We know a ton.
We know that it conjures something that looks like a pigeon, that flies to a target, that cant be destroyed by normal weapons, and when it gets to the target (eventually) gives that person a message.
We don't have to assume anything more than that. We don't need to assume that the pigeon carries a tiny piece of paper...heck you can send a pigeon to the center of a star, and the person will get the message! *shrugs* it would take a long time to get there at 30 miles per hour

That's not a strawman argument, 'why assume it has any basis in mundane reality' is. It does follow the rules of reality, magic is part of reality therefor it follows the rules of reality that apply to magic. No, we don't have to assume it carries a piece of paper since we're already TOLD it can carry a piece of paper. We certainly can't claim that 'or a written message' somehow doesn't mean it can carry a piece of paper because clearly it must be able to transport a piece of paper because we're told it can. Might as well claim someone is just 'assuming' a 10 shot e-clip has 10 shots when we're told it's a 10-shot e-clip. We're told the magical pigeon can deliver a written message so it must be able to transport what the message is written on, that should be self-evident. It doesn't really matter how it's carrying the paper just that we know it can.

Not really to both
1) it DOESNT have to have a mundane basis, eg just because it summons the facsimile of a pigeon doesn't mean that it has to be used just like a mundane pigeon with capsules, and notes, and the like it can be completely unrelated to that mundane way of using pigeons to carry messages, and be one that is completely magical.
2) it doesn't HAVE to carry a pre-written message. It just has to deliver a written message. There is a difference. I say that its just as possible that the written message is created out of whole cloth at the destination, assuming that you go that route.

eliakon wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Because if it didn't have any basis or connection to mundane reality then it wouldn't either be comprehensible or have anything about it that one could define or identify making it useless. Just because it's magic doesn't mean that it has no rules or things one can expect of it, it must if not then one couldn't use it because there'd be nothing about it they could understand to make use of it.

The Magical Pigeon spell creates a magical version of a pigeon, it's clearly defined by that intent and construction and its purpose to deliver a message to a target. Because of that it's bound by certain things, it can't magically explode into flames at random because that's not how it was built, or find anyone anywhere it has to be given some target location to search, and so on.

that is a strawman argument though. It doesn't explode because its a spell to carry a message. Its magic that pretty much means right there it doesn't follow the rules of reality that we know. Just because it follows the rules of magic, doesn't mean that we cant know anything about it. We know a ton.
We know that it conjures something that looks like a pigeon, that flies to a target, that cant be destroyed by normal weapons, and when it gets to the target (eventually) gives that person a message.
We don't have to assume anything more than that. We don't need to assume that the pigeon carries a tiny piece of paper...heck you can send a pigeon to the center of a star, and the person will get the message! *shrugs* it would take a long time to get there at 30 miles per hour

That's not a strawman argument, 'why assume it has any basis in mundane reality' is. It does follow the rules of reality, magic is part of reality therefor it follows the rules of reality that apply to magic. No, we don't have to assume it carries a piece of paper since we're already TOLD it can carry a piece of paper. We certainly can't claim that 'or a written message' somehow doesn't mean it can carry a piece of paper because clearly it must be able to transport a piece of paper because we're told it can. Might as well claim someone is just 'assuming' a 10 shot e-clip has 10 shots when we're told it's a 10-shot e-clip. We're told the magical pigeon can deliver a written message so it must be able to transport what the message is written on, that should be self-evident. It doesn't really matter how it's carrying the paper just that we know it can.

Not really to both
1) it DOESNT have to have a mundane basis, eg just because it summons the facsimile of a pigeon doesn't mean that it has to be used just like a mundane pigeon with capsules, and notes, and the like it can be completely unrelated to that mundane way of using pigeons to carry messages, and be one that is completely magical.
2) it doesn't HAVE to carry a pre-written message. It just has to deliver a written message. There is a difference. I say that its just as possible that the written message is created out of whole cloth at the destination, assuming that you go that route.

Worth mentioning is the fact that I can deliver a written message easily enough in real life without handing over a piece of paper. I can simply read a message and verbally relay the contents of that message to whomever I am delivering it to.

Giant2005 wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Because if it didn't have any basis or connection to mundane reality then it wouldn't either be comprehensible or have anything about it that one could define or identify making it useless. Just because it's magic doesn't mean that it has no rules or things one can expect of it, it must if not then one couldn't use it because there'd be nothing about it they could understand to make use of it.

The Magical Pigeon spell creates a magical version of a pigeon, it's clearly defined by that intent and construction and its purpose to deliver a message to a target. Because of that it's bound by certain things, it can't magically explode into flames at random because that's not how it was built, or find anyone anywhere it has to be given some target location to search, and so on.

that is a strawman argument though. It doesn't explode because its a spell to carry a message. Its magic that pretty much means right there it doesn't follow the rules of reality that we know. Just because it follows the rules of magic, doesn't mean that we cant know anything about it. We know a ton.
We know that it conjures something that looks like a pigeon, that flies to a target, that cant be destroyed by normal weapons, and when it gets to the target (eventually) gives that person a message.
We don't have to assume anything more than that. We don't need to assume that the pigeon carries a tiny piece of paper...heck you can send a pigeon to the center of a star, and the person will get the message! *shrugs* it would take a long time to get there at 30 miles per hour

That's not a strawman argument, 'why assume it has any basis in mundane reality' is. It does follow the rules of reality, magic is part of reality therefor it follows the rules of reality that apply to magic. No, we don't have to assume it carries a piece of paper since we're already TOLD it can carry a piece of paper. We certainly can't claim that 'or a written message' somehow doesn't mean it can carry a piece of paper because clearly it must be able to transport a piece of paper because we're told it can. Might as well claim someone is just 'assuming' a 10 shot e-clip has 10 shots when we're told it's a 10-shot e-clip. We're told the magical pigeon can deliver a written message so it must be able to transport what the message is written on, that should be self-evident. It doesn't really matter how it's carrying the paper just that we know it can.

Not really to both
1) it DOESNT have to have a mundane basis, eg just because it summons the facsimile of a pigeon doesn't mean that it has to be used just like a mundane pigeon with capsules, and notes, and the like it can be completely unrelated to that mundane way of using pigeons to carry messages, and be one that is completely magical.
2) it doesn't HAVE to carry a pre-written message. It just has to deliver a written message. There is a difference. I say that its just as possible that the written message is created out of whole cloth at the destination, assuming that you go that route.

Worth mentioning is the fact that I can deliver a written message easily enough in real life without handing over a piece of paper. I can simply read a message and verbally relay the contents of that message to whomever I am delivering it to.

Which means you delivered a verbal message, the spell description for the Magic Pigeon doesn't say 'and can deliver a written message verbally' it says 'or a written message', on top of 'delivers a verbal message'. No reasonable person is going to think when they hear 'or a written message' in that context that it means anything but deliver a piece of paper with writing on it.

eliakon wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

eliakon wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Because if it didn't have any basis or connection to mundane reality then it wouldn't either be comprehensible or have anything about it that one could define or identify making it useless. Just because it's magic doesn't mean that it has no rules or things one can expect of it, it must if not then one couldn't use it because there'd be nothing about it they could understand to make use of it.

The Magical Pigeon spell creates a magical version of a pigeon, it's clearly defined by that intent and construction and its purpose to deliver a message to a target. Because of that it's bound by certain things, it can't magically explode into flames at random because that's not how it was built, or find anyone anywhere it has to be given some target location to search, and so on.

that is a strawman argument though. It doesn't explode because its a spell to carry a message. Its magic that pretty much means right there it doesn't follow the rules of reality that we know. Just because it follows the rules of magic, doesn't mean that we cant know anything about it. We know a ton.
We know that it conjures something that looks like a pigeon, that flies to a target, that cant be destroyed by normal weapons, and when it gets to the target (eventually) gives that person a message.
We don't have to assume anything more than that. We don't need to assume that the pigeon carries a tiny piece of paper...heck you can send a pigeon to the center of a star, and the person will get the message! *shrugs* it would take a long time to get there at 30 miles per hour

That's not a strawman argument, 'why assume it has any basis in mundane reality' is. It does follow the rules of reality, magic is part of reality therefor it follows the rules of reality that apply to magic. No, we don't have to assume it carries a piece of paper since we're already TOLD it can carry a piece of paper. We certainly can't claim that 'or a written message' somehow doesn't mean it can carry a piece of paper because clearly it must be able to transport a piece of paper because we're told it can. Might as well claim someone is just 'assuming' a 10 shot e-clip has 10 shots when we're told it's a 10-shot e-clip. We're told the magical pigeon can deliver a written message so it must be able to transport what the message is written on, that should be self-evident. It doesn't really matter how it's carrying the paper just that we know it can.

Not really to both
1) it DOESNT have to have a mundane basis, eg just because it summons the facsimile of a pigeon doesn't mean that it has to be used just like a mundane pigeon with capsules, and notes, and the like it can be completely unrelated to that mundane way of using pigeons to carry messages, and be one that is completely magical.
2) it doesn't HAVE to carry a pre-written message. It just has to deliver a written message. There is a difference. I say that its just as possible that the written message is created out of whole cloth at the destination, assuming that you go that route.

Neither of those is a reasonable interpretation of the spell.

1) Form follows function and given it is magic that creates a magical version of a pigeon it stands to reason that it's going to deliver a written message in the fashion a mundane pigeon would, i.e. by a message attached to it in the mundane fashion. Insisting it could do it in some unrelated, completely magical way is just trying to muddy the waters just to make things seem vaguer than they actually are. There is no reason to think it would transport a written message in any way other than the mundane way of an actual pigeon and nothing is given to suggest that a spell made to mimic a pigeon in form to deliver messages would not use the mundane method with regards to transporting a written message.

2) I this case you're misusing the English language and again trying to create a meaning that's completely unreasonable and contrary to the actual meaning of the words as well as to the nature of the spell presented to us. It can deliver a written message, it's fashioned to resemble and function like a carrier pigeon, ergo it delivers a written message on paper that it physically carries from the caster's location to the target location and attempts to deliver to its intended recipient. It most certainly doesn't do anything as ridiculous as transmit what you tell it to transmit but can make it a written piece of paper at the end instead of being verbal in the delivery, that would require a completely different sentence structure such as: 'The pigeon can deliver a message of up to 30 words in length either verbally or by leaving it transcribed to a piece of paper that magically appears to the recipient.'. What we do have is quite clear: it delivers either a verbal message of 30 words or less or it delivers a written message that it carries from where it is to the target with the limits of how much you can fit to the written page for delivery.

Nightmask wrote:Probably more that 'or written message' means 'a written slip of paper with however many words you can write onto it', as the 30 words limitation is pretty clearly meant to reflect how many spoken words the pigeon can 'carry' and pass on to the target and not how many words you can write onto the slip of paper.

I completely stand corrected on that front- I misread the text.
There is no word limit stated for the written message, as you say.

flatline wrote:BoM p113: "The Magic Pigeon is able to deliver a spoken (30 words or less) or written message"

We know from the real world how pigeons deliver written messages. It's strange to me the ability of the Magic Pigeon to deliver written messages would even be a point for debate.

In the real world, how do pigeons deliver spoken messages?

Of course, just because the pigeon can't be harmed doesn't mean that the paper slip clipped to its leg is similarly immune to harm...

Interesting point.