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Some martial art forms in the book provide W.P. skills as part of their training, but don't list that W.P. in the weapon kata section. Does this mean that even though the martial art training included the W.P., it wasn't advanced enough to actually combine with the martial art form, and thus can't be used with it? Or should it be assumed that if a martial art form teaches a W.P., it also provides the associated weapon kata?

Mileage may vary, but for me, if a martial art form includes a WP, then you automatically get the Kata for that weapon. Since yah it makes it hard to train to use a weapon....if you cant use the weapon

I thought a weapon kata just taught the WP for the purposes of using that specific form, whereas if you had the WP, you could use it no matter what form you were using?

eliakon wrote:Mileage may vary, but for me, if a martial art form includes a WP, then you automatically get the Kata for that weapon. Since yah it makes it hard to train to use a weapon....if you cant use the weapon

This is incorrect. You only get the Kata if it says you get the Kata. This is very clear in arts like Zanji which only give you a kata in a single weapon while giving you several other WPs without katas.

This clearly means it is only PP+WP for strike/parry. Not sure on the issue of attacks.

Katas are superior to WP due to the stacking. WP can be used with anything but don't stack.

There's also subleties like being able to use a weapon for more than just striking. Certain Atemi and martial arts techniques have wording vague enough that they could be done with WP, such as Vital Points.

Nope, to enjoy the bonuses of your form with a weapon, you need to have weapon kata, if you don't, you just have the bonuses of proficiency (if you are proficient).
If you have both weapon kata and proficiency, the bonuses stack.

You'll notice, for instance that Ninjutsu teaches a bevy of exotic weapons, but only two kata. One of the weapons offered for kata, the ninja sword, is not among the proficiencies, so you get only nijnutsu's bonuses to hit, parry etc with it (unless you use a secondary skill slot to get the proficiency).

Svartalf wrote:Nope, to enjoy the bonuses of your form with a weapon, you need to have weapon kata, if you don't, you just have the bonuses of proficiency (if you are proficient).
If you have both weapon kata and proficiency, the bonuses stack.

You'll notice, for instance that Ninjutsu teaches a bevy of exotic weapons, but only two kata. One of the weapons offered for kata, the ninja sword, is not among the proficiencies, so you get only nijnutsu's bonuses to hit, parry etc with it (unless you use a secondary skill slot to get the proficiency).

I believe that's more because if you acquire a Weapon Kata in something you automatically gain Weapon Proficiency in it (which certainly makes sense, you can hardly master use of a weapon for a style if you haven't even learned how to use the weapon in general). So selecting 'Weapon Kata-Ninja Sword' includes 'Weapon Proficiency-Ninja Sword', you just don't get it as an automatic selection as a WP without the kata as well.

Sorry but no cigar, if you check the description of ninjutsu in N&SS, you'll notice that among the weapons offered for kata are the knife and kusarigama, which are also noted among the taught WP skills... either my theory is correct or a huge mistake passed through proof reading twice (original edition, AND revision). Plus, nowhere in any section pertaining to weapon kata is it said or implied that the corresponding WP (and its bonuses) was included. Kobujutsu is the ability to merge weapon use with one's martial arts form to benefit from the form's bonuses.

Svart you automatically get the WP if you get the kata, pg123's description explicitly states that "Taking this kata automatically gives the character full WP with the weapon named".

The WP and kata selections of Ninjutsu don't contradict this in any way. In this case it just means you get more bang for your buck if you select Ninja Sword, since then you get a WP you don't have automatically (WP sword, albeit limited to a specific kind), whereas in the case of the other katas, you are merely getting the added kata abilities to existing WPs.

I'm not seeing how the overlap (or lack thereof) would be a mistake. This would be true if you were given a fixed WP kata that duplicated a WP skill, but there's no conflict if you can only choose some (in this case 2) of several katas and thus none are fixed.

Damn, see what I get for not paying proper attention, you and Nightmask are correct of course.

So if I understand correctly...

All Kata include the WP but WP does not include the kata.

The benefit of the kata is that you can use the WP bonuses and the forms bonuses together.

I can use a weapon I have a WP for while I am using a form, but I can not combine the forms bonuses with the WP bonuses.

tsh77769

The WP's that are not a part of a WK do not get the MAF bonuses.

tsh77769 wrote:The benefit of the kata is that you can use the WP bonuses and the forms bonuses together.

Another benefit is that you can use the weapons with the techniques.

Bonuses are what we mainly focus on, but 'techniques' covers any special moves the form provides, including associated Atemi skills not limited to HtH techniques.

For example, say your super-hero friend made of Plasma was deafened by an enemy using Atemi.

You have a Healing Atemi move, but if you did it with your body to help him, the contact would burn your limbs off.

Luckily you have a Bo Staff Weapon Kata, so you are able to hit him with a 10ft pole and cure him of his deafness, and it only burns up a length of wood instead of your finger.

Something else worth noting: automatic parry is something provided by HtH forms.

This means that unless you have a WP Kata, parrying with a mere WP skill will cost you an attack. Automatic parry could only be used with weapons if you have the kata.

Far as I know, sans Kata, the only thing you use from your HtH form is attacks per melee. Plus obvious passive stuff like SDC bonuses or savings throws.

In the specific example of the Ninja sword from Ninjitsu and the Kobu-Jutsu example from page 123 of the N&SS book, the downside to getting the WP for Ninja Sword as part of a Weapon Kata for that form is that you are only able to use the Ninja Sword with Ninjitsu- as pointed out in the provided example of WK Spear with Isshin-Ryu and how it cannot be used outside Isshin-Ryu combat.

fbdaury wrote:In the specific example of the Ninja sword from Ninjitsu and the Kobu-Jutsu example from page 123 of the N&SS book, the downside to getting the WP for Ninja Sword as part of a Weapon Kata for that form is that you are only able to use the Ninja Sword with Ninjitsu- as pointed out in the provided example of WK Spear with Isshin-Ryu and how it cannot be used outside Isshin-Ryu combat.

You can use the spear outside of the Isshin-Ryu style, you just can't add the bonuses from Isshin-Ryu style to combat with the spear when not using that style at the time only the bonuses from WP Spear.

From N&SS page 123, under the description for Kobu-Jutsu: "For example, a character with Isshin-Ryu could take a Spear Weapon Kata. That would allow the use of a spear while fighting with the usual Isshin-Ryu moves and bonuses. But he can only use the spear with Isshin-Ryu combat."

Emphasis on the bold section.

fbdaury wrote:From N&SS page 123, under the description for Kobu-Jutsu: "For example, a character with Isshin-Ryu could take a Spear Weapon Kata. That would allow the use of a spear while fighting with the usual Isshin-Ryu moves and bonuses. But he can only use the spear with Isshin-Ryu combat."

Emphasis on the bold section.

You're misreading that, it means he can't use the Spear Weapon Kata he learned for Isshin-Ryu outside Isshin-Ryu not that he can't use a spear at all unless it's while using Isshin-Ryu. Anyone can use any weapon even if they don't have a weapon proficiency for it but they can't gain the bonuses of a particular martial art using a weapon unless they have that particular weapon kata with that particular martial art. So since taking a weapon kata automatically gives you the weapon proficiency as well the character always has the Spear weapon proficiency's bonuses when using a spear but can only add into that the bonuses from Isshin-Ryu while using the Isshin-Ryu style.

Nightmask wrote:

fbdaury wrote:From N&SS page 123, under the description for Kobu-Jutsu: "For example, a character with Isshin-Ryu could take a Spear Weapon Kata. That would allow the use of a spear while fighting with the usual Isshin-Ryu moves and bonuses. But he can only use the spear with Isshin-Ryu combat."

Emphasis on the bold section.

You're misreading that, it means he can't use the Spear Weapon Kata he learned for Isshin-Ryu outside Isshin-Ryu not that he can't use a spear at all unless it's while using Isshin-Ryu. Anyone can use any weapon even if they don't have a weapon proficiency for it but they can't gain the bonuses of a particular martial art using a weapon unless they have that particular weapon kata with that particular martial art. So since taking a weapon kata automatically gives you the weapon proficiency as well the character always has the Spear weapon proficiency's bonuses when using a spear but can only add into that the bonuses from Isshin-Ryu while using the Isshin-Ryu style.

Correct, you can use the WP at will.
However, if you want to use the WK (Weapon Kata) in two martial arts, you need to learn it twice, once for both martial arts.
Its sort of like getting two skills
You get a WP and a WK. The WK supersedes the WP, but can only be used in the Martial Art it was learned in.

The WP gained from a WP kata can be used in any hand-to-hand just not combined with its bonuses.

So there's no downside to getting Ninja Sword as kata instead of WP.