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A player and I are having a bit of a disagreement on how Sonic Speed works. He's got a LOT more experience than I do with HU, but I'm not sure I agree with his assessment of the rules.

Basically, how much damage can one do with Sonic Speed, and how many attacks can one get off at full speed.

The way he reads it, he can get up to full speed in action, then do full damage bonus of +140 (+4 for every 20 MPH, travelling at 700 MPH) with every subsequent attack. I say this takes half his attacks (as per pg 72). Which is right?

If you are the GM it is your call.
HU2E section titled NOTES on Super Abilities in Combat

pg72 "However, such an attack counts as the equivalent of HALF his total melee attacks!" Why, because the speedster must have some time to reach a high speed and to deliver the devastating blow. [new paragraph] The lost attacks are in the first half of the round, as the character builds up speed and closes with the target. Thus a character with six attacks would lose his first three and deliver the speed augmented attack ruing the fourth attack segment of the round."

pg73. "Each 10mph of speed requires at least 10 feet of running distance, so full speed assaults may not be possible indoors."

The power itself says it takes 4seconds to get up to speed (pg290 HU2E), that's closer to 1/3-1/4 of available actions. It also says the acts of taking off and stopping each take an action. Given the differences, I would go with the power description to get up to speed, but it still takes another action to attack. Sometimes the general rules are over ruled in specific cases.

The Baron vonClogg wrote:Even if he pulls you into a rules argument, just take a step back. There are very few ways in this game to be able to hand out 140-point damage bonuses multiple times per melee. With the number of attacks also increased, most characters will be dealing 1000+ damage per melee. One of Kevin's governing principles is that one-shot kills are rare, and this would be awfully close for just abut anything but a true brick. This power suddenly becomes the absolute unanimous most overbalanced in the game, and not just the leading contender.

I've also never been comfortable with speedsters dealing this kind of damage without consequence... Just because you're running doesn't mean that your hand suddenly has hundreds of SDC, and wouldn't be shattered when delivering this punch. Not to mention damage to your wrist, elbow, shoulder, and probably some of the longer bones.

Go for the three-attack cost for this power stunt, along with a Balance Check for the "punch then sudden stop" combo, and then if/when he gets a bad roll you should probably inflict some consequences!

Except there aren't any mentions of such punching doing any sort of backlash damage, so the super-speedsters must have the required secondary powers in order to move at those speeds and punch things without injury. Just as we don't see anything that says that someone with Superhuman Strength suffers damage to himself under normal circumstances punching stuff for over 100+ damage.

@Nightmask.
pg73. If someone can trip a speedster, their damage bonus for their speed works against them. That is a specific instance though, I agree if they are the ones delivering the attack they are not going to be taking damage in general. If that was the case a sword (or insert melee weapon) would take damage with every blow, but it isn't by the rules at least.

IIRC, some examples of ram attacks (which the speedster really is doing) do inflict damage to both parties at different rates, so I could see a speedster taking partial damage from the blow unless they take precautions to minimize damage.

talmor wrote:The way he reads it, he can get up to full speed in action, then do full damage bonus of +140 (+4 for every 20 MPH, travelling at 700 MPH) with every subsequent attack. I say this takes half his attacks (as per pg 72). Which is right?

I think you could both be right, depending on circumstances. I think it largely depends on who you're attacking and how your vector has to change between attacks.

If a speedster was running down the middle of a corrider lined on left and right with bad guys, they could probably maintain their speed while punching guys along the way.

If, on the other hand, they were zipping back and forth from 1 end to the other, or staying in 1 spot to punch the same guy, then you would have to decelerate. If you wanted to use the speed bonus against a single target, you'd actually have to put some distance between yourself and them to be able to begin launching a second speed attack at them.

The only feasible way that you could maintain your speed vector and direction and still keep pummeling the same guy would be if your punch launched them ahead of you, and even then, because their own speed would be substracted from your own to calculate the relative velocity, you wouldn't get the bonus. The bonus is based on stationary targets. Much like you would add the damage bonuses of 2 guys charging toward each other, you would subtract them if 1 was running (or being flung) away while getting hit.

In most circumstances, unless things are lined up rather perfectly, you'll need that 1/2 melee to adjust your vectors.

Basically you have to have the delay, and do it like the master. You can super-speed punch, but the biggest most brutal hits need space and delays to traverse them. The master's trick is a neat one for avoiding deceleration and turn-around, but is one that is beyond the realm of mere Sonic-level speedsters.

I've been trying to sort the riddle of the two different speed attacks for a while. Extra Spd and Wingless Flight has the rules of
+4 per 20 mph. Sonic Speed was claiming a run at 400+ mph only did 1D4x10 with nothing extra. Then along comes PU 1 with
Rocket Flight which includes the Extra Spd damage plus its own base damage which escapes me at the moment, since I don't
have my book in front of me since I'm at work . Anyway since I'm guessing the new rule of thumb appears to be following
the latest book with the power being Rocket Flight (PU 3), I'd say use the +4 damage along with whatever base damage is for
Sonic Speed included so the 400 mph body block of sonic speed would do 1D4x10 +4 per 20 mph of speed. Only you take some
damage 5D6 unless you roll with punch and it cost half your actions. Of course that would also need to be determined on how
far away are you from your target. say 50 feet then I say you probably only took 1 or 2 actions instead of half based on the
total number of actions you have in the first place.

Something else with Sonic Speed, I don't know about you folks but I still included the +6 to dodge with the power from the
rules of !st edition revised along with the +3 auto dodge. Use an action to get the bigger bonus is my motto.

If HU ever does get a big fat revamp (namely to remove the 80s and early 90s tech, and that irritating education table, and
update the skills to match BtS, Dead Reign, Rifts, and Robotech) I'd like to see the powers remove some continuity errors
generated because PU 1, 2, and 3. That would solve the issue of Sonic Speed and few others. Slow Motion no save, Stop
Time and Increase Time at saving throw . Negate Super Powers no save. Borrow Super Powers or Possession-Super
Powers saving throw .

I have a different question about superspeed folks, rather than starting a new thread...

HU2 told us that people with Ext/Sonic Speed gets 4 melee attacks (instead of 1 or 2) to try and shoot down missiles that are targetting before they hit. This leaves me wondering some stuff:

1. Is that PER missile, or per volley?
2. What happens if a second volley is fired at you on your enemy's second attack? Are you still busy firing at the first one?
3. If you miss your first 3 shots to try and destroy the volley, instead of a fourth can you opt to dodge?
4. Sonic Flight goes faster than ExtSpeed, could it also get the 4 shots?
5. What about guys like SpeedMetal who have a compromised Sonic Speed? Half sonic is still more than Extraordinary. What if speed is quartered? Maybe some middle ground like 3 instead of 2 or 4?
6. Why is it that these guys can attempt to shoot down missiles 4 times before a missile hits, but can't attempt to dodge it 4 times before it hits? Or wait... rereading it, superspeed guys DO get extra dodges. I guess in that case I'm wondering... since Ext/Sonic Speedsters also have an auto-dodge, could they opt to try 4 auto-dodges (with the lower bonuses) per missile rather than spend the 4 attacks? Or could they mix like 2 attempts to shoot down, 2 attempts to dodge?
7. How much of an attack debt can these guys build up? If someone with Sonic Speed has only 1 attack left in a melee, would they still get 4 attempts to shoot it down, or would they only get 1 because you can only borrow attacks to dodge?
8. Since you can borrow dodging (uses RUE anyway, dunno if this extends to HU) if you're a speedster with 9 attacks and an opponent with 7 attacks fires 7 missiles how would the mechanics of this work? Say it took until your 4th dodge to successfully evade, does this mean (let's say you aren't using auto-dodge) that in 1 melee round of dodging 7 volleys you could end up spending 7x4=28 attacks on dodges evading 1 opponent in a single melee? But you only have 18 attacks from this and next melee. Can you borrow 10 more attacks from the next 2 after that?

Rappanui wrote:I reminded them what someone with Spin at super speed and Magnetism could do..

I'm not sure what you're getting at but you have me intrigued...