Forums of the Megaverse®

Being able to travel the megaverse offers some serious opportunity to make money, so I thought I'd start a thread dedicated to exactly this topic.

To start things off, I thought I'd describe the two most obvious opportunities that I could think of.

1. Selling wormwood resin weapons in the 3 galaxies.

According to "Three Galaxies" pages 115-116, there is huge demand for weapons that can do MD but don't require a power source. This demand is so high that a measly 1d6MD crystal knife has a nominal price of $35k and a 2d6 crystal mace goes for $55k. Well, a resin knife and a resin mace to exactly the same amount of damage and do not require a power source. Unfortunately, they're not as pretty as the crystal weapons, but I doubt that would discount their value by more than 50%.

Of course, to make this work, you need to line up a buyer in the 3 galaxies for these weapons and you need to source the weapons from wormwood. I imagine that you could easily trade an energy rifle for one or two dozen resin weapons, so the potential for serious profit is there. Details would need to be worked out in-game.

2. Selling Rifts Earth weapons in the 3 galaxies.

According to Phase World, weapons from Rifts Earth are valued at parity in the 3 galaxies (a gun that costs $20k on Rifts Earth has a nominal value of $20k on Phase World). Of course, unless you're selling to an actual buyer and not someone who plans to resell the weapon, you're not going to get that kind of selling price and the only guide for selling weapons is the black market section in RMB and RUE which says selling price to the black market is typically 10%-30% of the nominal price.

So here's the thing, if you can get better than 10% of the nominal value of the weapons you bought on Rifts Earth, then since you can buy 10 earth credits for each phase world credit, then you come out ahead. For example, let's say you purchase $100k worth of rifles from Northern Gun using universal credits and sell sell them for 15% the nominal price on phase world ($15k in phase world credits), then when you convert back to universal credits at 1:10, you end up with $150k in universal credits which is 50% more than you invested.

Assuming this works at all (entirely up to the GM as to whether you can find a buyer), then the limitations are obvious. By converting phase world credits into universal credits, you are increasing demand for universal credits. If you're doing this in big enough sums, the 1:10 conversion rate will shrink until you can no longer make money. If X is the number of universal credits you can get for a single phase world credit and Y is the fraction of nominal value of the weapon that you can sell the weapons for, you'll make money as long as X*Y is greater than 1.

I hope that's enough to get things started.

--flatline

I like it. You've just opened my eyes to a way my PC's or any of my NPC's could make their millions.

My group would sell Xitixix weapons to the Naruni, I presume the same principle applied for the Naruni resellers.

Naruni present an interesting opportunity. Finding buyers for guns without going through middlemen can be tricky, but ammunition is actually relatively easy to sell. Since Naruni shells cost the same on Rifts Earth as in the 3 galaxies, buy several boxes in Merctown and then sell them to folks in the 3 galaxies who use Naruni weapons. So instead of reselling at 10%-30%, you could reasonably sell at 50%-75% of the ammunition's value.

You: Hey, I notice you guys use Naruni guns. How do you like them?
Guy: We like 'em fine. You thinking of trying them out?
You: No, I didn't like the way they balanced in my hand, but I do still have still some boxes of shells left over. You interested?

--flatline

We set up an import/export business between Dweomer and The Place Of Magic in Palladium.
We exported Techno-Wizardry items, and imported Alchemical items.
We had a large stock of Xiticix TK rifles from various adventures, so that was one of our initial exports to Palladium. Much better range than a bow.

In New Alexandria the Naruni version of the NEMA automag is so common that the plasma ammunition can be used as currency.

rat_bastard wrote:In New Alexandria the Naruni version of the NEMA automag is so common that the plasma ammunition can be used as currency.

Then if you have phase world credits and can access Rifts Earth, you should convert your credits one for ten into Rifts Earth credits and then go to Rifts Earth to purchase your Naruni plasma ammunition there to get 10 times the value out of your phase world credits.

Out of curiosity, where is New Alexandria?

--flatline

flatline wrote:

rat_bastard wrote:In New Alexandria the Naruni version of the NEMA automag is so common that the plasma ammunition can be used as currency.

Then if you have phase world credits and can access Rifts Earth, you should convert your credits one for ten into Rifts Earth credits and then go to Rifts Earth to purchase your Naruni plasma ammunition there to get 10 times the value out of your phase world credits.

Out of curiosity, where is New Alexandria?

--flatline

Northern California, its a home brew city but we absolutely did not shy away from making deals with the Naruni to the point where every military grad is given a Naruni automag when they complete basic.

And the problems of the dimension system as written rear a couple of their ugly heads.
Seriously the system as written makes the ability to dimensionally travel more or less a license to print money. Especially since the only curbs on abuse are GM fiat and/or PCs choosing not to abuse the system.


On a related note, one of my personal solutions has been to say 'okay, you need to find these dimensions first'. This combined with a bunch of my own homebrew dimensions (so that random rolls don't send players to the 'gold mines'), and requiring rolls everytime for dtravel have curbed abuse in my games.

eliakon wrote:And the problems of the dimension system as written rear a couple of their ugly heads.
Seriously the system as written makes the ability to dimensionally travel more or less a license to print money. Especially since the only curbs on abuse are GM fiat and/or PCs choosing not to abuse the system.


On a related note, one of my personal solutions has been to say 'okay, you need to find these dimensions first'. This combined with a bunch of my own homebrew dimensions (so that random rolls don't send players to the 'gold mines'), and requiring rolls everytime for dtravel have curbed abuse in my games.

all of a sudden I had a mental image of the "myth" series and the "d hoppers pop into my head basically a cylinder with a number of wheel tumblers typically thousands or even millions of valid combinations......

eliakon wrote:And the problems of the dimension system as written rear a couple of their ugly heads.
Seriously the system as written makes the ability to dimensionally travel more or less a license to print money. Especially since the only curbs on abuse are GM fiat and/or PCs choosing not to abuse the system.


On a related note, one of my personal solutions has been to say 'okay, you need to find these dimensions first'. This combined with a bunch of my own homebrew dimensions (so that random rolls don't send players to the 'gold mines'), and requiring rolls everytime for dtravel have curbed abuse in my games.

In regards to the bolded text, if someone has been to the dimension and prepared some sort of base of operations there, what rolls do you require for them to return to it?

--flatline

flatline wrote:

eliakon wrote:And the problems of the dimension system as written rear a couple of their ugly heads.
Seriously the system as written makes the ability to dimensionally travel more or less a license to print money. Especially since the only curbs on abuse are GM fiat and/or PCs choosing not to abuse the system.


On a related note, one of my personal solutions has been to say 'okay, you need to find these dimensions first'. This combined with a bunch of my own homebrew dimensions (so that random rolls don't send players to the 'gold mines'), and requiring rolls everytime for dtravel have curbed abuse in my games.

In regards to the bolded text, if someone has been to the dimension and prepared some sort of base of operations there, what rolls do you require for them to return to it?

--flatline

Depends on what they are using to travel, and what sort of base they have.
it ranges from +5% on the roll (hey, I have a rented condo in their Florida) to +98% (I have a full sanctuary with dimensional beacon tuned to my true name).

this all hinges on the ability o convert phase world credits to rifts credits.. only problem is that last i checked, the CCW, Naruni, TGE, and UWW didn't exactly have bank branches in Coalition or NGR territory.. and the NGR and CS didn't have any branches on Phase World or elsewhere.

so you can't just 'convert' the money.. you'd have to find a middleman that deals in both currencies that would be willing to sell rifts credits for phase world ones and vice versa.. and hope that individual is willing to give the same 10 to 1 that is the adjusted value between the two..
given said middleman would by nature be doing same sort of scam involving buying and selling across the dimensional divide (likely using 'in kind' trade where the sale of 3G's goods on earth pays for the goods to be brought back), i doubt he/she/it would be willing to earn no profit on the transaction. you'd be lucky to get 4 to 1 or 3 to 1, if not worse.

you'd be better off setting up your own 'in kind' trade. buy up rifts goods that are worth good value in the 3G's (like say northern Gun energy weaponry), bring them to the 3G's, sell them, use the funds to buy 3G's goods that would be in high demand on earth (like say antigrav flight packs), bring those back, and sell them on earth. find the right mix of goods on both ends and you can weight the transactions to build up a high profit in whichever money you desire.

glitterboy2098 wrote:this all hinges on the ability o convert phase world credits to rifts credits.. only problem is that last i checked, the CCW, Naruni, TGE, and UWW didn't exactly have bank branches in Coalition or NGR territory.. and the NGR and CS didn't have any branches on Phase World or elsewhere.

so you can't just 'convert' the money.. you'd have to find a middleman that deals in both currencies that would be willing to sell rifts credits for phase world ones and vice versa.. and hope that individual is willing to give the same 10 to 1 that is the adjusted value between the two..
given said middleman would by nature be doing same sort of scam involving buying and selling across the dimensional divide (likely using 'in kind' trade where the sale of 3G's goods on earth pays for the goods to be brought back), i doubt he/she/it would be willing to earn no profit on the transaction. you'd be lucky to get 4 to 1 or 3 to 1, if not worse.

you'd be better off setting up your own 'in kind' trade. buy up rifts goods that are worth good value in the 3G's (like say northern Gun energy weaponry), bring them to the 3G's, sell them, use the funds to buy 3G's goods that would be in high demand on earth (like say antigrav flight packs), bring those back, and sell them on earth. find the right mix of goods on both ends and you can weight the transactions to build up a high profit in whichever money you desire.

You can find anything on Phase World, including a money exchanger, it really wouldn't be that difficult once you have access to Phase World to convert currencies around.

glitterboy2098 wrote:this all hinges on the ability o convert phase world credits to rifts credits.. only problem is that last i checked, the CCW, Naruni, TGE, and UWW didn't exactly have bank branches in Coalition or NGR territory.. and the NGR and CS didn't have any branches on Phase World or elsewhere.

so you can't just 'convert' the money.. you'd have to find a middleman that deals in both currencies that would be willing to sell rifts credits for phase world ones and vice versa.. and hope that individual is willing to give the same 10 to 1 that is the adjusted value between the two..
given said middleman would by nature be doing same sort of scam involving buying and selling across the dimensional divide (likely using 'in kind' trade where the sale of 3G's goods on earth pays for the goods to be brought back), i doubt he/she/it would be willing to earn no profit on the transaction. you'd be lucky to get 4 to 1 or 3 to 1, if not worse.

you'd be better off setting up your own 'in kind' trade. buy up rifts goods that are worth good value in the 3G's (like say northern Gun energy weaponry), bring them to the 3G's, sell them, use the funds to buy 3G's goods that would be in high demand on earth (like say antigrav flight packs), bring those back, and sell them on earth. find the right mix of goods on both ends and you can weight the transactions to build up a high profit in whichever money you desire.

Sure, but you can buy gold from phase world, a society that melts down asteroids and small lifeless planets for resources or just examples of outdated phase world tech to trade to earth people and make a similar profit.

glitterboy2098 wrote:you'd be better off setting up your own 'in kind' trade. buy up rifts goods that are worth good value in the 3G's (like say northern Gun energy weaponry), bring them to the 3G's, sell them, use the funds to buy 3G's goods that would be in high demand on earth (like say antigrav flight packs), bring those back, and sell them on earth. find the right mix of goods on both ends and you can weight the transactions to build up a high profit in whichever money you desire.

I totally agree that it would be better, but it's not required to turn a profit.

I would tend to shy away from importing things like grav packs into Rifts Earth because that might draw unwanted attention.

Edit: I don't know what kinds of goods I would risk importing to Rifts Earth. Non-perishable food items (sugar, some candies, etc) might be good trade items.

--flatline

eliakon wrote:And the problems of the dimension system as written rear a couple of their ugly heads.
Seriously the system as written makes the ability to dimensionally travel more or less a license to print money. Especially since the only curbs on abuse are GM fiat and/or PCs choosing not to abuse the system.

Indeed - the problem of the conversion rate are substantial, and in practice do not nearly match the conditions described. Realistically, the difference in a given item's value between location A and location B will never long be more than the expense of transportation between those locations. As a GM I would handle this idea one of the following ways:

Manufacturing limitations: Rifts Earth and Wormwood are war-torn territories, NOT manufacturing powerhouses able to match up with the industries of the Three Galaxies. Getting real quantities and consistent supply are going to be quite problematic for anyone looking to get rich this way. You may be able to finagle an order for 1 million widgets from Earth, but how are you going to get them?

Supply competition: If you start outbidding the militaries and adventurers of Rifts Earth (for example), do you think those powerful entities, fighting for their lives, are going to take it down? Buy up all of the NG output and you had better be prepared to fight off ambushes getting it offworld.

Support limitations: If you are introducing small quantities of product, how are you to support it? If a 3G laser pistol blows a fuse, finding a replacement is trivial. If you buy a laser pistol from some transdimensional peddler, then fixing it becomes an issue. Basically, without good support, many of the items mentioned will be of limited use to any but collectors.

Dammit Jim, I'm a doctor not a salesman!: The vast majority of adventurers lack the basic skills needed to be merchants in even the easiest of environments, and will run afoul of all manner of problems trying to run such a business. Nor will many have the interest, either as characters OR players.

Trade competition: Related to the previous point, sooner or later any such exploitable trade imbalance is GOING to be exploited by other groups better able to do so. If it only costs the characters 20% in costs, that 900% markup is going to get undercut but fast. In a few months, regular trade between two dimensions would have brought the profitability down to the point where this is no longer profitable for novices.

So I might let someone get away with this on a small scale, but after that I would have no problem absolutely crushing them with the problems of trying to start up a transdimensional business.

flatline wrote:

rat_bastard wrote:In New Alexandria the Naruni version of the NEMA automag is so common that the plasma ammunition can be used as currency.

Then if you have phase world credits and can access Rifts Earth, you should convert your credits one for ten into Rifts Earth credits and then go to Rifts Earth to purchase your Naruni plasma ammunition there to get 10 times the value out of your phase world credits.

Out of curiosity, where is New Alexandria?

--flatline

It doesn't work that way - Bill Coffin was smart enough to prevent that exploit when he wrote up the currency conversion rules in Anvil Galaxy, page 29.
If you are buying Phase World Credits with Earthly credits, you get them at a 10:1 ratio.
If you are buying Earthly credits with Phase world credits, you only get them at a 1:5 ratio.

Giant2005 wrote:

flatline wrote:

rat_bastard wrote:In New Alexandria the Naruni version of the NEMA automag is so common that the plasma ammunition can be used as currency.

Then if you have phase world credits and can access Rifts Earth, you should convert your credits one for ten into Rifts Earth credits and then go to Rifts Earth to purchase your Naruni plasma ammunition there to get 10 times the value out of your phase world credits.

Out of curiosity, where is New Alexandria?

--flatline

It doesn't work that way - Bill Coffin was smart enough to prevent that exploit when he wrote up the currency conversion rules in Anvil Galaxy, page 29.
If you are buying Phase World Credits with Earthly credits, you get them at a 10:1 ratio.
If you are buying Earthly credits with Phase world credits, you only get them at a 1:5 ratio.

That's why I said "if you have phase world credits". If you don't already have phase world credits, then you don't come out ahead if you convert to Earth credits and then make your purchase on Earth.

My memory says that Phase World gives the ratios as 20:1 to buy phase world credits and 1:10 convert back. Can someone confirm?

--flatline

glitterboy2098 wrote:this all hinges on the ability o convert phase world credits to rifts credits.. only problem is that last i checked, the CCW, Naruni, TGE, and UWW didn't exactly have bank branches in Coalition or NGR territory.. and the NGR and CS didn't have any branches on Phase World or elsewhere.

so you can't just 'convert' the money.. you'd have to find a middleman that deals in both currencies that would be willing to sell rifts credits for phase world ones and vice versa.. and hope that individual is willing to give the same 10 to 1 that is the adjusted value between the two..
given said middleman would by nature be doing same sort of scam involving buying and selling across the dimensional divide (likely using 'in kind' trade where the sale of 3G's goods on earth pays for the goods to be brought back), i doubt he/she/it would be willing to earn no profit on the transaction. you'd be lucky to get 4 to 1 or 3 to 1, if not worse.

you'd be better off setting up your own 'in kind' trade. buy up rifts goods that are worth good value in the 3G's (like say northern Gun energy weaponry), bring them to the 3G's, sell them, use the funds to buy 3G's goods that would be in high demand on earth (like say antigrav flight packs), bring those back, and sell them on earth. find the right mix of goods on both ends and you can weight the transactions to build up a high profit in whichever money you desire.

I read this and heard (in my head), "I'm with Vandelay Industries. We do importing and exporting."

Giant2005 wrote:It doesn't work that way - Bill Coffin was smart enough to prevent that exploit when he wrote up the currency conversion rules in Anvil Galaxy, page 29.
If you are buying Phase World Credits with Earthly credits, you get them at a 10:1 ratio.
If you are buying Earthly credits with Phase world credits, you only get them at a 1:5 ratio.

By itself, that doesn't prevent the scheme originally presented, it just diminishes the profits a bit.

For example:
1) On Earth, George buys widgets worth X Earth credits.
2) He transports them to Phase World where, being a mediocre merchant, he sells them for 0.5X PW credits (half their supposed list price).
3) He then sells his 0.5X PW credits to purchase 2.5X Earth credits (the 1:5 exchange rate) and returns to Earth.

Repeating these steps, George is able to multiple his investment by a factor of 2.5 each trip based solely on the fact that the price in credits is consistent (even though the relative value of those credits otherwise isn't) and the Earth-for-PW exchange rate.

Exploiting the opposite leg of the trip is trickier because you CANNOT sell at credit parity without losing money:

1) On Earth, George buys widgets worth X Earth credits.
2) He transports them to Phase World where, being a mediocre merchant, he sells them for 0.5X PW credits (half their supposed list price).
3) He then purchases PW widgets worth 0.5X PW credits.
4) He transports them back to Earth where, having a better understanding of the market, he sells the for full list price... 0.5X Earth credits.

By repeating this cycle, he loses half his money each round trip. He can bring it up to zero loss if he can buy and sell at list, but making a profit this way requires selling on Earth for more than a 5X markup, something possible only by deception or with a product not otherwise available and therefore worth extra money. Either practice is likely to draw unwanted attention and thereby be unsustainable.

cosmicfish wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:It doesn't work that way - Bill Coffin was smart enough to prevent that exploit when he wrote up the currency conversion rules in Anvil Galaxy, page 29.
If you are buying Phase World Credits with Earthly credits, you get them at a 10:1 ratio.
If you are buying Earthly credits with Phase world credits, you only get them at a 1:5 ratio.

By itself, that doesn't prevent the scheme originally presented, it just diminishes the profits a bit.

For example:
1) On Earth, George buys widgets worth X Earth credits.
2) He transports them to Phase World where, being a mediocre merchant, he sells them for 0.5X PW credits (half their supposed list price).
3) He then sells his 0.5X PW credits to purchase 2.5X Earth credits (the 1:5 exchange rate) and returns to Earth.

Repeating these steps, George is able to multiple his investment by a factor of 2.5 each trip based solely on the fact that the price in credits is consistent (even though the relative value of those credits otherwise isn't) and the Earth-for-PW exchange rate.

Exploiting the opposite leg of the trip is trickier because you CANNOT sell at credit parity without losing money:

1) On Earth, George buys widgets worth X Earth credits.
2) He transports them to Phase World where, being a mediocre merchant, he sells them for 0.5X PW credits (half their supposed list price).
3) He then purchases PW widgets worth 0.5X PW credits.
4) He transports them back to Earth where, having a better understanding of the market, he sells the for full list price... 0.5X Earth credits.

By repeating this cycle, he loses half his money each round trip. He can bring it up to zero loss if he can buy and sell at list, but making a profit this way requires selling on Earth for more than a 5X markup, something possible only by deception or with a product not otherwise available and therefore worth extra money. Either practice is likely to draw unwanted attention and thereby be unsustainable.

Yes but just to break even, George has to sell his Earth-bought item on PW for 20% of what he paid for it. Anything above that 20% is pure profit.
The thing is, selling things for 20% or more of their market value is a rarity even on Earth. If you take that item to a setting like Phase World witch tech levels that put Earth to shame, the odds are whatever you are trying to sell is going to be either completely obsolete or sub-par technology - getting that 20% resale would be an unrealistic dream to have. You are more likely to get a pretty charitable 5%

Giant2005 wrote:

cosmicfish wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:It doesn't work that way - Bill Coffin was smart enough to prevent that exploit when he wrote up the currency conversion rules in Anvil Galaxy, page 29.
If you are buying Phase World Credits with Earthly credits, you get them at a 10:1 ratio.
If you are buying Earthly credits with Phase world credits, you only get them at a 1:5 ratio.

By itself, that doesn't prevent the scheme originally presented, it just diminishes the profits a bit.

For example:
1) On Earth, George buys widgets worth X Earth credits.
2) He transports them to Phase World where, being a mediocre merchant, he sells them for 0.5X PW credits (half their supposed list price).
3) He then sells his 0.5X PW credits to purchase 2.5X Earth credits (the 1:5 exchange rate) and returns to Earth.

Repeating these steps, George is able to multiple his investment by a factor of 2.5 each trip based solely on the fact that the price in credits is consistent (even though the relative value of those credits otherwise isn't) and the Earth-for-PW exchange rate.

Exploiting the opposite leg of the trip is trickier because you CANNOT sell at credit parity without losing money:

1) On Earth, George buys widgets worth X Earth credits.
2) He transports them to Phase World where, being a mediocre merchant, he sells them for 0.5X PW credits (half their supposed list price).
3) He then purchases PW widgets worth 0.5X PW credits.
4) He transports them back to Earth where, having a better understanding of the market, he sells the for full list price... 0.5X Earth credits.

By repeating this cycle, he loses half his money each round trip. He can bring it up to zero loss if he can buy and sell at list, but making a profit this way requires selling on Earth for more than a 5X markup, something possible only by deception or with a product not otherwise available and therefore worth extra money. Either practice is likely to draw unwanted attention and thereby be unsustainable.

Yes but just to break even, George has to sell his Earth-bought item on PW for 20% of what he paid for it. Anything above that 20% is pure profit.
The thing is, selling things for 20% or more of their market value is a rarity even on Earth. If you take that item to a setting like Phase World witch tech levels that put Earth to shame, the odds are whatever you are trying to sell is going to be either completely obsolete or sub-par technology - getting that 20% resale would be an unrealistic dream to have. You are more likely to get a pretty charitable 5%

It all depends on what you're selling and how willing you are to search for a buyer. In the case of Naruni plasma cartridges, they're the exact same cartridges, brand new, still in Naruni packaging. Clearly not obsolete or sub-par technology although there may be suspicion of counterfeit goods. Buy them on Earth for $40 each using Earth credits, take them to the 3 galaxies and sell them for more than $8 to make profit at the 1:5 conversion rate (can't get to my books right now to see if it's 1:5 as you've said or if it's 1:10 that I remember).

If you're selling to a middleman, then he's going to give you a smaller sum in order to get the margin he wants when he ultimately sells it. If you decide to skip the middleman, then you have to find the buyer yourself which has its own costs, but likely means when you do sell it, you'll do it for a higher price, possibly making up the difference.

I'm not advocating that any of this is guaranteed to work, but certainly the potential is there.

--flatline

Giant2005 wrote:Yes but just to break even, George has to sell his Earth-bought item on PW for 20% of what he paid for it. Anything above that 20% is pure profit.
The thing is, selling things for 20% or more of their market value is a rarity even on Earth. If you take that item to a setting like Phase World witch tech levels that put Earth to shame, the odds are whatever you are trying to sell is going to be either completely obsolete or sub-par technology - getting that 20% resale would be an unrealistic dream to have. You are more likely to get a pretty charitable 5%

I will absolutely buy that if you are figuring in used and outdated technology, like an adventurer trying to rid him/herself of unwanted gear, but not all Earth gear is going to fit those criteria, so the trick simply becomes purchasing and reselling NEW gear, and doing so selectively to identify those areas where the technology gap is minimal or inconsequential.

For example, I don't buy the idea that a brand new TX-20 (2d6 dmg, 800ft range, 20 shots/clip) worth 12k Earth credits is only going to sell for 600 PW credits when a HI-30 (2d6 dmg, 1000ft range, 20 shots/clip) is selling for 15k PW credits. That extra 200 feet of range is just not going to matter to people who are looking for a back-up weapon and/or one that they are only going to willingly use at close range anyway, certainly not enough to drop the price by a factor of 25! I think offering that pistol at 9k PW credits (75% of Earth retail) would probably get a heckuva lot of interest.

There are certainly items that are exactly the same in both locations (as flatline noted above), and I doubt it is all Naruni stock. I also think that there are a lot of not-specifically-adventuring products that would fit this category - foodstuffs, raw materials, etc. Heck, in many cases, import from "lesser" dimensions may be the most common method of commerce in the Three Galaxies!

flatline wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:

cosmicfish wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:It doesn't work that way - Bill Coffin was smart enough to prevent that exploit when he wrote up the currency conversion rules in Anvil Galaxy, page 29.
If you are buying Phase World Credits with Earthly credits, you get them at a 10:1 ratio.
If you are buying Earthly credits with Phase world credits, you only get them at a 1:5 ratio.

By itself, that doesn't prevent the scheme originally presented, it just diminishes the profits a bit.

For example:
1) On Earth, George buys widgets worth X Earth credits.
2) He transports them to Phase World where, being a mediocre merchant, he sells them for 0.5X PW credits (half their supposed list price).
3) He then sells his 0.5X PW credits to purchase 2.5X Earth credits (the 1:5 exchange rate) and returns to Earth.

Repeating these steps, George is able to multiple his investment by a factor of 2.5 each trip based solely on the fact that the price in credits is consistent (even though the relative value of those credits otherwise isn't) and the Earth-for-PW exchange rate.

Exploiting the opposite leg of the trip is trickier because you CANNOT sell at credit parity without losing money:

1) On Earth, George buys widgets worth X Earth credits.
2) He transports them to Phase World where, being a mediocre merchant, he sells them for 0.5X PW credits (half their supposed list price).
3) He then purchases PW widgets worth 0.5X PW credits.
4) He transports them back to Earth where, having a better understanding of the market, he sells the for full list price... 0.5X Earth credits.

By repeating this cycle, he loses half his money each round trip. He can bring it up to zero loss if he can buy and sell at list, but making a profit this way requires selling on Earth for more than a 5X markup, something possible only by deception or with a product not otherwise available and therefore worth extra money. Either practice is likely to draw unwanted attention and thereby be unsustainable.

Yes but just to break even, George has to sell his Earth-bought item on PW for 20% of what he paid for it. Anything above that 20% is pure profit.
The thing is, selling things for 20% or more of their market value is a rarity even on Earth. If you take that item to a setting like Phase World witch tech levels that put Earth to shame, the odds are whatever you are trying to sell is going to be either completely obsolete or sub-par technology - getting that 20% resale would be an unrealistic dream to have. You are more likely to get a pretty charitable 5%

It all depends on what you're selling and how willing you are to search for a buyer. In the case of Naruni plasma cartridges, they're the exact same cartridges, brand new, still in Naruni packaging. Clearly not obsolete or sub-par technology although there may be suspicion of counterfeit goods. Buy them on Earth for $40 each using Earth credits, take them to the 3 galaxies and sell them for more than $8 to make profit at the 1:5 conversion rate (can't get to my books right now to see if it's 1:5 as you've said or if it's 1:10 that I remember).

If you're selling to a middleman, then he's going to give you a smaller sum in order to get the margin he wants when he ultimately sells it. If you decide to skip the middleman, then you have to find the buyer yourself which has its own costs, but likely means when you do sell it, you'll do it for a higher price, possibly making up the difference.

I'm not advocating that any of this is guaranteed to work, but certainly the potential is there.

--flatline

Yeah Naruni tech is probably the best choice, financially at least. If I were GMing that, I'd give the maximum 25% return for New Weapons, Body Armor and Power Armor offered in BM, so it would be profitable.
However, as a player I don't think I'd ever be ballsy enough to try that. Trying to take over the Naruni market with their own gear is likely to leave you with a very serious case of deadness.

Giant2005 wrote:If I were GMing that, I'd give the maximum 25% return for New Weapons, Body Armor and Power Armor offered in BM,

Not sure what "BM" stands for in this context, but I would wager that those percentages are meant for adventurers selling to retailers on a casual basis, and I do not see any reason why an individual devoting serious effort and energy to being a merchant would suffer these costs. Remember that you have the opportunity to establish relationships, offer testing, whatever steps you need to take - the difference in exchange rates at 5:1 offers a LOT of leeway for absorbing costs.

Giant2005 wrote:

flatline wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:

cosmicfish wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:It doesn't work that way - Bill Coffin was smart enough to prevent that exploit when he wrote up the currency conversion rules in Anvil Galaxy, page 29.
If you are buying Phase World Credits with Earthly credits, you get them at a 10:1 ratio.
If you are buying Earthly credits with Phase world credits, you only get them at a 1:5 ratio.

By itself, that doesn't prevent the scheme originally presented, it just diminishes the profits a bit.

For example:
1) On Earth, George buys widgets worth X Earth credits.
2) He transports them to Phase World where, being a mediocre merchant, he sells them for 0.5X PW credits (half their supposed list price).
3) He then sells his 0.5X PW credits to purchase 2.5X Earth credits (the 1:5 exchange rate) and returns to Earth.

Repeating these steps, George is able to multiple his investment by a factor of 2.5 each trip based solely on the fact that the price in credits is consistent (even though the relative value of those credits otherwise isn't) and the Earth-for-PW exchange rate.

Exploiting the opposite leg of the trip is trickier because you CANNOT sell at credit parity without losing money:

1) On Earth, George buys widgets worth X Earth credits.
2) He transports them to Phase World where, being a mediocre merchant, he sells them for 0.5X PW credits (half their supposed list price).
3) He then purchases PW widgets worth 0.5X PW credits.
4) He transports them back to Earth where, having a better understanding of the market, he sells the for full list price... 0.5X Earth credits.

By repeating this cycle, he loses half his money each round trip. He can bring it up to zero loss if he can buy and sell at list, but making a profit this way requires selling on Earth for more than a 5X markup, something possible only by deception or with a product not otherwise available and therefore worth extra money. Either practice is likely to draw unwanted attention and thereby be unsustainable.

Yes but just to break even, George has to sell his Earth-bought item on PW for 20% of what he paid for it. Anything above that 20% is pure profit.
The thing is, selling things for 20% or more of their market value is a rarity even on Earth. If you take that item to a setting like Phase World witch tech levels that put Earth to shame, the odds are whatever you are trying to sell is going to be either completely obsolete or sub-par technology - getting that 20% resale would be an unrealistic dream to have. You are more likely to get a pretty charitable 5%

It all depends on what you're selling and how willing you are to search for a buyer. In the case of Naruni plasma cartridges, they're the exact same cartridges, brand new, still in Naruni packaging. Clearly not obsolete or sub-par technology although there may be suspicion of counterfeit goods. Buy them on Earth for $40 each using Earth credits, take them to the 3 galaxies and sell them for more than $8 to make profit at the 1:5 conversion rate (can't get to my books right now to see if it's 1:5 as you've said or if it's 1:10 that I remember).

If you're selling to a middleman, then he's going to give you a smaller sum in order to get the margin he wants when he ultimately sells it. If you decide to skip the middleman, then you have to find the buyer yourself which has its own costs, but likely means when you do sell it, you'll do it for a higher price, possibly making up the difference.

I'm not advocating that any of this is guaranteed to work, but certainly the potential is there.

--flatline

Yeah Naruni tech is probably the best choice, financially at least. If I were GMing that, I'd give the maximum 25% return for New Weapons, Body Armor and Power Armor offered in BM, so it would be profitable.
However, as a player I don't think I'd ever be ballsy enough to try that. Trying to take over the Naruni market with their own gear is likely to leave you with a very serious case of deadness.

The Naruni like spunk. I think they wouldn't kill you right off. They would show up, and explain that operating a franchise has certain rules. Rules that you obviously agree to since you are running said franchise....

I just pulled out Phase World and I can't find where the conversion rates going to or from Earth credits are printed. Does anyone know where they are and what they are?

--flatline

flatline wrote:I just pulled out Phase World and I can't find where the conversion rates going to or from Earth credits are printed. Does anyone know where they are and what they are?

--flatline

I mentioned it earlier in the thread: Anvil Galaxy, page 29.

Giant2005 wrote:

flatline wrote:I just pulled out Phase World and I can't find where the conversion rates going to or from Earth credits are printed. Does anyone know where they are and what they are?

--flatline

I mentioned it earlier in the thread: Anvil Galaxy, page 29.

Ah, thank you. I remembered wrong. The ratios are, indeed 10:1 RE->PW and 1:5 PW->RE which means the break even sell percentage is 20%.

--flatline

eliakon wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:

flatline wrote:
It all depends on what you're selling and how willing you are to search for a buyer. In the case of Naruni plasma cartridges, they're the exact same cartridges, brand new, still in Naruni packaging. Clearly not obsolete or sub-par technology although there may be suspicion of counterfeit goods. Buy them on Earth for $40 each using Earth credits, take them to the 3 galaxies and sell them for more than $8 to make profit at the 1:5 conversion rate (can't get to my books right now to see if it's 1:5 as you've said or if it's 1:10 that I remember).

If you're selling to a middleman, then he's going to give you a smaller sum in order to get the margin he wants when he ultimately sells it. If you decide to skip the middleman, then you have to find the buyer yourself which has its own costs, but likely means when you do sell it, you'll do it for a higher price, possibly making up the difference.

I'm not advocating that any of this is guaranteed to work, but certainly the potential is there.

--flatline

Yeah Naruni tech is probably the best choice, financially at least. If I were GMing that, I'd give the maximum 25% return for New Weapons, Body Armor and Power Armor offered in BM, so it would be profitable.
However, as a player I don't think I'd ever be ballsy enough to try that. Trying to take over the Naruni market with their own gear is likely to leave you with a very serious case of deadness.

The Naruni like spunk. I think they wouldn't kill you right off. They would show up, and explain that operating a franchise has certain rules. Rules that you obviously agree to since you are running said franchise....

It would be to your advantage to not get on their radar. Don't advertise, line up your buyers discretely, don't deal in large enough numbers to draw attention to yourself.

--flatline

So, the most obvious way to make a ton of money is take something valuable from someone and sell it. Your costs are limited to your time and any costs associated with acquiring and selling the valuable (repairs, healing, bribes, whatever).

In one of the first Rifts campaigns we ever played, we captured a Death Head Transport undamaged with troops and power armor inside (they were dead, of course. Diabolism for the win!). We never actually sold any of it. We started looking for buyers, but quit the campaign before we succeeded. In the later campaigns where we "acquired" DHTs, we donated them to Wormwood (sometimes with a full compliment of troops and equipment).

Has anyone ever bothered to figure out how much a DHT and the equipment inside is worth?

--flatline

flatline wrote:So, the most obvious way to make a ton of money is take something valuable from someone and sell it. Your costs are limited to your time and any costs associated with acquiring and selling the valuable (repairs, healing, bribes, whatever).

There is a lot of risk associated with this method, but a skilled and dedicated team could certainly make some serious money this way... but not as much as you could make through honest work.

flatline wrote:In one of the first Rifts campaigns we ever played, we captured a Death Head Transport undamaged with troops and power armor inside (they were dead, of course. Diabolism for the win!). We never actually sold any of it. We started looking for buyers, but quit the campaign before we succeeded. In the later campaigns where we "acquired" DHTs, we donated them to Wormwood (sometimes with a full compliment of troops and equipment).

There are a lot of problems associated with selling something like a DHT: it will require maintenance and parts and tools that will be extraordinarily hard to acquire, it is a hard to disguise/hard to conceal item that the original owner will want to reclaim or destroy, its absence will be hard to conceal and may substantially reduce the value, and it is so valuable that it will have a very limited number of potential buyers.

Personally, I would target rune weapons - extremely valuable and marketable, small, portable, and easy to sell. And if you pick your targets carefully, not necessarily an overwhelming opponent.

i find it funny how many people are saying they would add all kinds of roadblocks to this... and yet, in the black market book (btw, for those who mentioned earlier, BM is black market), you can apparently just buy a (black market, which is actually legitimate in certain parts of the world to boot) business that will give a 100% return on investment within a couple of months just for sitting around.

at least being interdimensional merchants means they're putting in some effort. they have to actually travel between dimensions, find buyers and sellers, etc, and they likely have to keep doing it if they want to keep earning more money (and they'll have to find a way to transport their products once they've built up to the point where they're buying large quantities at a time rather than a few laser rifles).

with that said, i would think that weapons which have a limited ammo supply are going to be hard to sell at first. not saying that triax pump gun will actually only sell for a few hundred credits, but i am going to say that if your buyer doesn't have good reason to believe he can buy more ammo when he runs out, you won't be able to sell at all... which means those triax pistols are not the greatest choice

energy weapons are likely to have a similar problem unless you spend the effort to convert them to use 3 galaxies e-clips (or offer a converter attachment or something similar), which is more a way of saying "you're going to need to spend some time and effort on this" than to suggest that the idea wouldn't work at all. another possibility would be techno-wizardry device... service for them is going to be no worse than any TW device made anywhere else in the 3 galaxies (you always need a techno-wizard no matter what).

Shark_Force wrote:i find it funny how many people are saying they would add all kinds of roadblocks to this...

Yes, for two reasons: first, as a GM I would have little to no interest in running a mercantile campaign, and second, I believe "get rich quick schemes" should succeed ONLY with the assistance of extraordinary talent, extraordinary effort, and not insubstantial luck. The ideas floated previously require none of those, and to me that signals opportunities that have either not been fully considered and/or will collapse almost immediately.

Shark_Force wrote:in the black market book (btw, for those who mentioned earlier, BM is black market), you can apparently just buy a (black market, which is actually legitimate in certain parts of the world to boot) business that will give a 100% return on investment within a couple of months just for sitting around.

Then I would consider that an error.

Shark_Force wrote:i would think that weapons which have a limited ammo supply are going to be hard to sell at first. not saying that triax pump gun will actually only sell for a few hundred credits, but i am going to say that if your buyer doesn't have good reason to believe he can buy more ammo when he runs out, you won't be able to sell at all... which means those triax pistols are not the greatest choice

The TX-20 pistols I mentioned use standard e-clips. Recharging them should not be an issue, and realistically e-clips will be recharged whenever possible anyway. Selling clips alongside should be an easy part of the sale.

As a side note on this issue, Watts are Watts, and it would genuinely astonish me if the 3G did not have a wide variety of ways for cheaply adapting e-clips. In the worst case, getting a 3W manufacturer to make a large batch of Triax e-clips should not be a real problem either.

cosmicfish wrote:

flatline wrote:So, the most obvious way to make a ton of money is take something valuable from someone and sell it. Your costs are limited to your time and any costs associated with acquiring and selling the valuable (repairs, healing, bribes, whatever).

There is a lot of risk associated with this method, but a skilled and dedicated team could certainly make some serious money this way... but not as much as you could make through honest work.

The amount of risk depends on the abilities of the party and the abilities of the target.

Whether or not piracy/privateering pays better than honest work really depends on the honest work available to you and the kinds of targets you're capable of taking, I suppose.

--flatline

Ain't capitalism wonderful?
There's shades of the great mercantile ventures of the Age of Sail here, where expeditions to the Far East might take 3-4 years, with no assurance of survival.
But one surviving cargoload of cloves making home port in Amsterdam, and the investors could be set for life.

cosmicfish wrote:

Shark_Force wrote:i find it funny how many people are saying they would add all kinds of roadblocks to this...

Yes, for two reasons: first, as a GM I would have little to no interest in running a mercantile campaign, and second, I believe "get rich quick schemes" should succeed ONLY with the assistance of extraordinary talent, extraordinary effort, and not insubstantial luck. The ideas floated previously require none of those, and to me that signals opportunities that have either not been fully considered and/or will collapse almost immediately.

I have found that most RPG's have a massive potential to turn into a mercantile game, assuming that the characters have only a fiscal motivation. Players need to work with their GM to come up with relevant reasons why they're an adventurer and would remain an adventurer. I've played PCs that were trying to achieve much more meta goals, such as improving the human condition on earth to not only kick out the alien intelligence's but be able to keep them off in the future; coming into a hundred million dollars will not substantially make that goal more achievable.

I can see many money making opportunities that have not been considered, and would be achievable, much more due to a novel combination of technologies from multiple geographic (or dimensional) sources. I agree with others that MD weapons without power sources are desirable in Phase World (and associated galaxies); utilizing ship-scale phase weaponry on a flying platform and then shooting at geographic spaces rather than point targets would allow you to start sweeping Xiticix hives to exterminate them from a stand-off distance. You can collect both the bounty and their weapon.

Even if you disagree that phase weapons could start shooting deep underground to exterminate Xiticix, then consider phase weapon carrying PC's with a mercantile personality, start shooting earth robot vehicles with a PH-400 heavy phase beamer (Phase World Pg 123) due to its area of effect; kill the crew without harming the bot, now you just need to successfully extract the robot from generally 'hostile' territory. If you set up multiple PH-400 beamers in an organ gun like fashion, you should be able to achieve a one shot kill on most coalition soldiers; I believe it's about seven PH-400's needed to achieve a reasonable % kill on average CS troopers.

The issue is RPG's are an abstraction, that players are generally larger than life, and that there are specific game rules that are codified as well, rules. This allows gaming the system, like Enron did to energy markets. There is really no way to truly stop a player from trying to become a merchant prince if that is their character's desire and only goal; that being said, it's easy and boring to make a hundred million, or even a billion dollars, then what? Your character retires, next character. If you have mercantile characters try to bribe their way out of everything, ask them why they're still adventuring spending all their hard earned dollars on frivolous pursuits. Characters have a great deal of money shouldn't disrupt a good campaign where both the players and GM are working together to weave a good story. Money sometimes just means the characters can spend money in ways more like Conan than Scrooge McDuck; when was the last time you saw a player character blow half their treasure on a giant party? No, they want to buy better magic weapons. But, if the players weren't always trying to maximize their characters abilities, then having more money just opens up other opportunities for fun.

Oborous wrote:The issue is RPG's are an abstraction, that players are generally larger than life, and that there are specific game rules that are codified as well, rules. This allows gaming the system, like Enron did to energy markets.

It allows gaming the system only to the extent that the GM allows it. The rules in roleplaying games are supposed to be subordinate to the story, not the other way around - and if a rule is driving the story somewhere it is not supposed to go then it is on the GM to make changes to the rules or story as necessary. This, BTW, is one of the prime differences between an MMO and tabletop gaming - the presence of a human arbiter.

Oborous wrote:There is really no way to truly stop a player from trying to become a merchant prince if that is their character's desire and only goal;

Actually, there are lots. There is no reason for a GM to run a mercantile game if they do not want to do so - players who DO exclusively want such a game can either start their own, or sit this one out. If there are other players who want such a game then it should be simple for them to set one up, and if there are not then there is no reason why the lone aspiring merchant should force their will on the GM and other players.

Also, the GM serves as the adversary anyway and has effectively infinite resources and power. Someone comes in with a load for trade? Perhaps it gest destroyed, or impounded, or they get conned, or ... whatever. If a GM has the authority and ability to strip people of rune weapons and starships, getting rid of occasional loads of pistols or ammo should not be confounding.

cosmicfish wrote:

Oborous wrote:The issue is RPG's are an abstraction, that players are generally larger than life, and that there are specific game rules that are codified as well, rules. This allows gaming the system, like Enron did to energy markets.

It allows gaming the system only to the extent that the GM allows it. The rules in roleplaying games are supposed to be subordinate to the story, not the other way around - and if a rule is driving the story somewhere it is not supposed to go then it is on the GM to make changes to the rules or story as necessary. This, BTW, is one of the prime differences between an MMO and tabletop gaming - the presence of a human arbiter.

I think you seem to be missing a point, the story is supposed to go where the people writing it want it to go, i.e. the players. Since they are the ones making the story they ought to actually get to decide what they want to do not the GM saying 'sorry but your character really doesn't want to do that he wants to do what I want him to do'. That's railroading and if the players have no say in things why bother playing?

cosmicfish wrote:

Oborous wrote:There is really no way to truly stop a player from trying to become a merchant prince if that is their character's desire and only goal;

Actually, there are lots. There is no reason for a GM to run a mercantile game if they do not want to do so - players who DO exclusively want such a game can either start their own, or sit this one out. If there are other players who want such a game then it should be simple for them to set one up, and if there are not then there is no reason why the lone aspiring merchant should force their will on the GM and other players.

Also, the GM serves as the adversary anyway and has effectively infinite resources and power. Someone comes in with a load for trade? Perhaps it gest destroyed, or impounded, or they get conned, or ... whatever. If a GM has the authority and ability to strip people of rune weapons and starships, getting rid of occasional loads of pistols or ammo should not be confounding.

You're advocating bad GM behavior there, that and that the players should just be puppets to whatever the GM wants instead of getting to actually decide for themselves what they want. So yes there's every reason for the GM to run a mercantile game if that's what his players want instead of insisting that they only get the kind of game HE enjoys rather than what THEY will enjoy.

Wondering if we could clarify source of Wormwood resin weapon damage. We know it does not get destroyed off-word like symbiotes or crystals or bloodstones... but I am unclear if it retains MDC much less MD-inflicting ability. Pg34 resin mountains description does not mention, I think I forgot page with damage mentioned.

Also since the leader of Society of Knife is a native to there, wondering if he might go back now and then, or send agents, and be trying to monopolize that source and take offense to anyone nosing in on it.

Tiamat might be trying something similar.

Giant2005 wrote:Bill Coffin was smart enough to prevent that exploit when he wrote up the currency conversion rules in Anvil Galaxy, page 29.
If you are buying Phase World Credits with Earthly credits, you get them at a 10:1 ratio.
If you are buying Earthly credits with Phase world credits, you only get them at a 1:5 ratio.

Er so... not sure which is left or right. It costs 10 rifts creds to buy 1 phase cred and you can spend 1 phase cred to get 5 rifts creds... or...

Nightmask wrote:

cosmicfish wrote:

Oborous wrote:The issue is RPG's are an abstraction, that players are generally larger than life, and that there are specific game rules that are codified as well, rules. This allows gaming the system, like Enron did to energy markets.

It allows gaming the system only to the extent that the GM allows it. The rules in roleplaying games are supposed to be subordinate to the story, not the other way around - and if a rule is driving the story somewhere it is not supposed to go then it is on the GM to make changes to the rules or story as necessary. This, BTW, is one of the prime differences between an MMO and tabletop gaming - the presence of a human arbiter.

I think you seem to be missing a point, the story is supposed to go where the people writing it want it to go, i.e. the players. Since they are the ones making the story they ought to actually get to decide what they want to do not the GM saying 'sorry but your character really doesn't want to do that he wants to do what I want him to do'. That's railroading and if the players have no say in things why bother playing?

cosmicfish wrote:

Oborous wrote:There is really no way to truly stop a player from trying to become a merchant prince if that is their character's desire and only goal;

Actually, there are lots. There is no reason for a GM to run a mercantile game if they do not want to do so - players who DO exclusively want such a game can either start their own, or sit this one out. If there are other players who want such a game then it should be simple for them to set one up, and if there are not then there is no reason why the lone aspiring merchant should force their will on the GM and other players.

Also, the GM serves as the adversary anyway and has effectively infinite resources and power. Someone comes in with a load for trade? Perhaps it gest destroyed, or impounded, or they get conned, or ... whatever. If a GM has the authority and ability to strip people of rune weapons and starships, getting rid of occasional loads of pistols or ammo should not be confounding.

You're advocating bad GM behavior there, that and that the players should just be puppets to whatever the GM wants instead of getting to actually decide for themselves what they want. So yes there's every reason for the GM to run a mercantile game if that's what his players want instead of insisting that they only get the kind of game HE enjoys rather than what THEY will enjoy.

IF all the players want to play a merchant game, AND the GM wants to run one then its fine to do this.
IF only one or two players want to do this, and the rest don't. Then yes the GM should squash it before it disrupts the game.

if your proposed solution for the players not doing what you want as the GM is to be a giant jerk, then perhaps GMing is not for you. being the GM is not a license to go on a power trip.

fix your problems some other way; if you want to play a game where X happens, and the players want to play a game where they get filthy stinking rich, then you need to find a way to compromise with the players, instead of trying to railroad them into what you want.

because i promise you, the second you try to *force* them to do what you want is the exact moment where you can expect them to repeatedly attempt to derail your game. don't be petty. suck it up; play something you'll both enjoy, or you're going to find that your players can derail your game and have fun with it while you're just getting more and more annoyed with trying to deal with the stupid things you do (and quite frankly, if your plan was to try and be a douchebag until they do what you want, you deserve every second of it).

Both the players and the GM should be having fun.

If the players want to make some money but the GM doesn't want to deal with the logistics of trading, perhaps he could just throw them a bone and move on ("some guy offers to take all that stuff from you for a lump sum of $X. Take it or leave it, there are no other buyers in the area").

Similarly, if the GM wants to take the campaign a certain direction, the players should attempt to play along. However, if the GM doesn't make it enjoyable or otherwise worth their while, some sort of compromise will be necessary or else nobody will have any fun and the campaign will end abruptly.

--flatline

flatline wrote:Both the players and the GM should be having fun.

If the players want to make some money but the GM doesn't want to deal with the logistics of trading, perhaps he could just throw them a bone and move on ("some guy offers to take all that stuff from you for a lump sum of $X. Take it or leave it, there are no other buyers in the area").

Similarly, if the GM wants to take the campaign a certain direction, the players should attempt to play along. However, if the GM doesn't make it enjoyable or otherwise worth their while, some sort of compromise will be necessary or else nobody will have any fun and the campaign will end abruptly.

--flatline

THIS

eliakon wrote:IF all the players want to play a merchant game, AND the GM wants to run one then its fine to do this.

Totally.

IF only one or two players want to do this, and the rest don't. Then yes the GM should squash it before it disrupts the game.

No. Not this.

If there is disagreement amongst the PCs, let the players sort things out in character. It is not the job of the GM to force a resolution in favor of the majority. If there truly is an impasse at the character level, then sort things out as adults.

--flatline

flatline wrote:[ If there truly is an impasse at the character level, then sort things out as adults.

--flatline

With taunting, name-calling, denial, and refusal.

Nightmask wrote:I think you seem to be missing a point, the story is supposed to go where the people writing it want it to go, i.e. the players. Since they are the ones making the story they ought to actually get to decide what they want to do not the GM saying 'sorry but your character really doesn't want to do that he wants to do what I want him to do'. That's railroading and if the players have no say in things why bother playing?

First, the GM is one of the writers too, and the most powerful and influential of all. Not only do they get to have fun too, they also have the burden of managing the story and the setting, and getting too far out of the comfort zone of the GM is one of the surest ways I know to wind up with a garbage game.

Second, it is neither uncommon nor unrealistic for GM's to require the player to play the character. If I allow someone to come into my game with a clearly mercantile character, then I am accepting a responsibility to allow that character to use their abilities. If, on the other hand, some player thinks that his Juicer should become a merchant prince just because that is what he suddenly decides he wants to do, I would see it as the GM's responsibility to make sure that his ease of doing so is complicated by the relatively poor ability of that character to accomplish the task.

Third, game sessions and even entire campaigns are often predicated on certain assumptions, and trying to railroad the GM onto some new path can mean throwing away all the work that they have invested in a campaign and forcing them to direct a campaign about which they have neither knowledge nor interest - how is THAT going to be fun for anyone? Ideally, the party will stay within the bounds of what the GM can handle by preparation or native talent, but if not...

Nightmask wrote:You're advocating bad GM behavior there, that and that the players should just be puppets to whatever the GM wants instead of getting to actually decide for themselves what they want. So yes there's every reason for the GM to run a mercantile game if that's what his players want instead of insisting that they only get the kind of game HE enjoys rather than what THEY will enjoy.

Not really what I was aiming for, but you seem to be advocating the GM as a puppet of the players... a worse option, IMO. Really, the players and the GM should all have a common idea of what direction the game will take, before play even starts, and deviations from that direction should be mutually acceptable. If they are not, then the MOST common results (in my experience) are for one or more players to leave the game or for the game to simply terminate (hopefully so that a new and more acceptable game can start).

so in other words, the players should all grovel at the GM's feet and beg for scraps.

yeah, remind me to never play in your games, it sounds like they suck. because there's no way a juicer could ever *possibly* get rich, since they're not a member of the filthy stinking rich OCC.

flatline wrote:

eliakon wrote:IF only one or two players want to do this, and the rest don't. Then yes the GM should squash it before it disrupts the game.

No. Not this.

If there is disagreement amongst the PCs, let the players sort things out in character. It is not the job of the GM to force a resolution in favor of the majority. If there truly is an impasse at the character level, then sort things out as adults.

--flatline

I agree with this, with the caveat that if the impasse is at the player level, then it behooves the GM to resolve things. For some GM's it may be possible to split into two separate campaigns, either temporarily or permanently, for others that will just not be practical. There is no point to being a part of a game, either as a player or as a GM, where you are not having fun.