Megaversal impacts of Heart of Magic's rules for True Names!

[Tor]

Regarding the rules on page 62-64 of the first 'Mysteries of Magic' series book for PF 'Heart of Magic', should we assume these rules apply outside of the Palladium World?

If so, I feel like this would be a HUGE impact for magic-heavy worlds like Nightbane and Rifts. Less so for magic-light worlds like HU/TMNT.

The negation of save bonuses is a huge deal, especially for beings like gods who would normally not have to worry about a huge amount of spells since they would have high save bonuses, and since the impact of controlling such beings would be so massive.

One thing I thought of is: knowing a being's true name alone probably is NOT enough to negate the bonuses. I think you would also have to know that you were targetting the person whose name you know.

For example, of Poseidon or Athena or Hera were trying to cast Dominate against Hades, even if theyknew the true 'Aidoneous' name, I think they would also know that it was Hades he was trying to cast the spell against. If Hades were disguised via magic as say, a Baalrog or a Devilkin, and those three thought they were just targetting some minion, then it wouldn't work.

Is this a reasonable assumption?

In this case I think it would explain why a lot of gods would often adopt disguises. Not being known as who you were is a defense against being targetted by wizards and other gods who might know your name, in case it gets out. Not all gods have super-secret 50+ names like Marduk, so anonymity would be a huge defense. This could be why you may not find out until later (as the god is leaving, or even after they left) that the person in your company actually was a god, or if you did, which one it was.

Also I think this might mean that gods would regularly have 'rebirth' ceremonies, whenever they thought enemies might have found out this information.

The danger of trueNames would be less known by newbie mystics/sorcerers in Nightbane/Beyond though, so roleplaying the discovery of that vulnerability, attempts to either eliminate the (lives or memory of) people who know the name, or to find a way to change it 'truly', would be pretty cool.

Also I think HoM should elaborate on how this works in conjunction with Hades/Dyval rules.

So far as I can tell, normal beings are penalized in a battle of wills if the name is knowm, but Demons/Deevils suck because they aren't just penalized, they automatically lose, and don't even NEED a battle of wills to dominate if the name is known. It's just automatic minionship.

The only real problem is multiple masters. This problem exists with battles of will too. If two people know your name, if two people cast dominate on you, if two people summon you, etc. In cases like this, if one is dominated by 2 masters, then perhaps it should be a direct battle of wills between the masters over the minion to see which order takes precidence?

[Tor]

Reinforcing this China statement (good find, going to write it into my book in pen, you know which page?) I think I recall something about learning the true name being ineffective if someone already knows it... presumably I think this means you have to kill their previous master (or they must otherwise die) for you to become the new one?

In the case of demon masters dying outside Hades, even though they're not TRULY dead, I kinda think that kind of upset should also qualify. Similarly, if the previous master gets knocked into a coma, maybe that should break their hold if someone else knows the name?

[Library Ogre]

One thing I thought of is: knowing a being's true name alone probably is NOT enough to negate the bonuses. I think you would also have to know that you were targetting the person whose name you know.

Certainly; I view it as not just a matter of KNOWING the name, but specifically including it in the spell. If you use the wrong true name against someone (i.e. you identify someone else), it does no good.

[Tor]

This makes me wonder... besides the obvious option of simply using worshippers as scout-pawns (great tactic) if a deity were to use Manifest to explore a world, if they would have to have the same True Name, or if they would have to come up with a new one, or if either is an option.

I'm thinking with Styphathal's manifestation of "Stavros" for example. I'm thinking perhaps that dark elf's true name really IS Stavros.

Similarly, with the Nightlords and their avatars. Is the Ghost Queen's 'true name' whatever Lilith's is, or is it 'Ghost Queen', or some other secret that perhaps she's even keeping from her master?

Or the true name of an Astral Avatar that an Astral Lord/Mage creates to defend their domain in their absence. Or the true name of a doppleganger (the spell, pretty sure Nightlands Dopplegangers already have different names). It seems like knowing the name of a copy that you create of yourself (or summon from another dimension, etc) would be a great way to keep control over them, and that adopting a new name unknown to the creator in symbolic rebirth would be a huge first step any of them would take in initiating rebellion.

Besides a first step, it's also a warning sign though. It makes me wonder if guys like Modeus who have names of all the Demons will occasionally try casting a weak spell (can you intentionally limit your spell strength to 12 even if you have bonuses from leveling? I don't see why not...) to see if it works or not. If it doesn't, that's a possibly indicator that their save bonuses returned and that they secretly changed their secret name without telling you...

Probably a more reliable way of checking that would be to say the name into a crystal ball though, since if you change your true name, your old true name would not successfully call up an image in the crystal ball.

[eliakon]

True names do not work against those who are immortals.

Can you clarify this some? What sort of 'immortal' are you talking about? And why doesn't it work?

[Tor]

All I know is you can't use the TN of a Deevil/Demon LORD to control them in the same way, but all demons/deevils are immortal (lifespanwise) and can be controlled explicitly, so there's clearly no anti-immortal rule.

Furthermore, even the LORDS should still be vulnerable via their True Names in the same way that normal people are, just not as badly (automatic fail) as their minions are.

[eliakon]

All I know is you can't use the TN of a Deevil/Demon LORD to control them in the same way, but all demons/deevils are immortal (lifespanwise) and can be controlled explicitly, so there's clearly no anti-immortal rule.

Furthermore, even the LORDS should still be vulnerable via their True Names in the same way that normal people are, just not as badly (automatic fail) as their minions are.

Oh I am sure that a demon lord or a god is vulnerable to True Name.....if the opponent is another such being. I would just think that the power inherent in such a name is more than most people can wield though. *shrugs* totally non-canon but it makes sense to me.

[Tor]

No rules exist requiring the being knowing a name to be of equal power. A level 1 wizard/LLW who happens to know the True Name of Sahtalus and knows he is casting a spell against Sahtalus would do so with Sahtalus having NO bonuses to save against him.

This is probably part of why even super-strong guys have minions (to deal with mass amounts of weaklings who might learn your true name) and travel around in disguise.

Sahtalus also has 'name hunter' squads. They're primarily to protect his minions who are MORE vulnerable to true name exploitation, but they are also to protect himself and his fellow lords.

[eliakon]

No rules exist requiring the being knowing a name to be of equal power. A level 1 wizard/LLW who happens to know the True Name of Sahtalus and knows he is casting a spell against Sahtalus would do so with Sahtalus having NO bonuses to save against him.

This is probably part of why even super-strong guys have minions (to deal with mass amounts of weaklings who might learn your true name) and travel around in disguise.

Sahtalus also has 'name hunter' squads. They're primarily to protect his minions who are MORE vulnerable to true name exploitation, but they are also to protect himself and his fellow lords.

in the RAW knowing Sahtalus's true name would do you no good, since as a Devil Lord he is immune to the effect. I was suggesting that perhaps he isn't totally immune, just effectively immune.

[Tor]

You obviously have not read the summon nightlord Description to come to this conclusion.

I've read that ritual, Nightbane148-9. It only requires the title/given name of the nightlord to bring them here. If you know their TRUE name then they would not get the savings throw bonus for being unwilling. This is why Nightlords would protect their true name.

in the RAW knowing Sahtalus's true name would do you no good, since as a Devil Lord he is immune to the effect. I was suggesting that perhaps he isn't totally immune, just effectively immune.

Demon/Deevil Lords are ONLY immune to the demon/deevil specific effects of knowing true name (complete obedience without a save).

They are not immune to the new rules in HoM which apply to everyone.

[Tor]

HoMp62 opens with "for mortals and immortals alike" and the only mention I see of "gods and demonic lords" is that their spell strength tends to be high. Please direct me to what sentence discusses this immunity, I'm not seeing it.

The only mention of Lord immunity to Demon/Deevil true-name control I have seen is:

*HadesPg18 (left) "It is also why demons, especially Demon Lords, may be known by many different names." (right) lesser minions are more easily tricked into revealing their true name (or the name of a hated rival or enemy) than a Greater Demon or Demon Lord."

*HadesPg19 "Lords seem to be immune to this weakness, at least when it comes to mortals. Their deific powers counteract this, protecting them from harm." + "magic could be used to summon one" .. "there would be no battle of the wills and the Demon Lord would be a free, evil force"

*DyvalPg15 "Only Deevil Lords are immune because of their godlike power. If summon someone tries to summon a Deevil Lord by using his true name, there is no result, unless the Deevil Lord chooses to answer the call".

These only pertains to the unique vulnerability to true names that Demons/Devils have (complete automatic obedience without even needing a battle of will or taking up a slot in a summoner's allotment) and not the overall vulnerability all named people have (losing save bonuses, penalty in battles of will).

The impression I get from these dimension books is that the Lords of Dyval are better off. They can resist summoning altogether. The Lords of Hades cannot, they WILL be summoned by their true name, but they can't be out-willed. Furthermore, this only refers to mortals, so it's possible if a deity or Deevil Lord learned the true name of a Demon Lord that they WOULD be vulnerable to the battle of wills. Whereas Deevil Lords have blanket immunity no matter who has their name. All true names due to DeeviLords is allow you to contact them. Having a Demon Lord's true name allows you to transport them against their will, which could make them vulnerable to attack, even if they are immune to being controlled afterward and could plausibly just teleport away, it's still a vulnerability. This explains why the Demon Lords are talked about protecting their true names and this isn't emphasized for Deevil Lords.

However, taking HoM into account, even Deevil Lords would protect their true name, because they are only immune to automatic summoning and automatic battle-of-wills loss. They are not immune to the loss of their save bonuses, which is a crippling vulnerability.

Edit: I just thought of something else. How does the 'no bonuses' aspect work in regard to penalties? If someone is -1 to all savings throws to some curse and +2 to save vs magic, do they roll vs magic at -1 or a natural die roll? I think it's common for people to sum the net of bonuses and penalties, but reading literally I guess penalties would apply in full and would not be offset by bonuses?