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MD Tear Gas!

No, seriously, this is part of the ridiculousness of having creatures that are MDC.

--flatline

There are normal people who through periodic exposure are pretty minimally effected by tear gas. In NG-1 they have a special load out on some mechs using KHEX which is much nastier than normal tear gas and at least has some effect on supernatural critters.

Mercbook1 wrote:Yeah but people are thinking that normal tear gas would effect them to me makes me laugh that they would think this since there skin is harder than modern day tank armor is.

What does the strength of their skin have to do with an inhaled gas?

For one, check the gargoyle entry for their immunity to chemicals; they don't have one. Tear gas is a chemical inhalant of which they have no special resistance to. That said, I don't know whether or not a gargoyle has tear-ducts, so it'd be speculation.

Basically, unless tear gas says that it doesn't affect supernatural creatures, or that under said supernatural creature it says specifically, "immune to gases", then guess what? It's not immune and the creature would be affected.

I'd tone done the effect to the equivalent of a human sniffing a just cut onion: unpleasant, but not debilitating.

Olerak Mace in Merc Ops is a Tear Gas that has normal effect on humans and supernatural creatures, its more expensive but totally worth it. A simple Chemistry, Field Armorer and Munitions expert or Demolitions roll should allow you to turn a tear gas grenade into a Olerak Mace Grenade.

I'm with Dog, unless there immune to chemicals or gases they should be affected. Now the only thing I see is how it affects them. and how said species cries (as in physical tears.) this rule would also apply to Mace or pepper spray unless said species does not have eyes or is immune to pepper spray.

and onions effect I would say should affect rolls, but no where near the level Pepper spray or tear gas. Also onions would not be a "1d4 days if a save is failed " thing. only as long as exposed to the offending Spanish onion.

It would seem to me the primary problem would be that gargoyles are 30 feet tall and would require a vastly higher does of any given chemical to have a discernable effect.

Mercbook1 wrote:Think some of us are missing the point these guys said normal CS-gas would effect them. To me these are creatures that have to have poisons added to there drinks to help them get drunk. Just find modern day tear gas as used by police and riot police today would not effect them.

"To me"

That is the problem; you're giving them abilities in your mind that they don't have.

Or I'll put this another way; acid.

So to start with a bit of background, iron is observationally, as well as factually tougher than human skin. We make all sorts of things out of it, from utensils to building materials.

But acid will dissolve iron. Acid will dissolve humans too. The point I'm making here is that just because one thing is physically tougher in certain aspects, does not mean that it is tougher in all respects.

Considering that they (gargoyles) need to breathe another SDC gas ("air"), and that an SDC compound can kill them if they breathe it in ("water"), it isn't and should not be a stretch to consider that other SDC chemicals can and will affect them.

One also has to consider the height of something like a gargoyle Tear gas is pretty heavy and for something as tall as a gargoyle even if they were just as effected as humans are is not getting nearly as concentrated of a dose of it as a human who is a fraction of their height is.

I would think normal CS gas is probably not much better than a smoke bomb to a gargoyle maybe a minor added eye irritant although due to how fast they bio regen that effect is unlikely to last more than a moment after out of the cloud.

Something like the NG khex grenades are much nastier and much more potent than standard CS gas and do have listed effects on supernatural creatures. I do not recommend players flinging khex grenades around though unless they are all buttoned up in EBA armor or vehicles that stuff is more than a bit antisocial.

CS gas is certainly something you can become accustomed to, even for a nomral human. That, however, doesn't mean a gargoyle is going to laugh at it automatically. If they have supernatural stats, it should be reflected by their ability to resist, sure, but the mechanics should be (if they don't already exist) something like a special bonus, which should also reflect their size.

Though CS gas is pretty nasty, honestly. It crystalizes your sinuses and in the cases of CS gas used for military operations, can make you choke, vomit or even lose your sense of balance and cause you to fall over. The more common effects are tears, coughing and an uncontrollable reation to shut your eyes. It burns, mostly through irritation of moisture on the body like the throat, mucus areas like the nose and your eyes as well. If your body has moisture on it, CS gas will have an effect, but it may be very limited or easily dealt with. CS gas particularly has a smaller effect on animals, but this isn't due to endurance, their fur often protects their mucus-filled cavities and they also have less developed tear ducts.

A gargoyle still has saliva and their eyes wet, they don't have fur, but they do have massive resilience from a supernatural source. I'd say they could choke and vomit if they inhaled too much, but the tearing properties might be lessened. really, a gargoyle should just get a bonus to save if they're caught in the area.

Consider an SDC human compared to a MDC human (perhaps a resident of Wormwood?). All the chemical reactions in their bodies are identical, so tear gas should affect them equally.

Similarly, if tear gas is effective against an SDC gargoyle (say, in Palladium or some non-MDC world) then it should have the same impact on a MDC gargoyle on Rifts Earth.

Whether or not the target of the tear gas is MDC should have no bearing on whether or not the tear gas causes them trouble.

--flatline

Basially what I intended with my comments, yeah.

Don't Gargoyles have a high enough PE to save vs poison?

They can have a high PE, yes. I think the point is that if they get a save from a gas grenade, their PE would affect it, but that wouldn't be any different from someone else with a high PE.

Personally i don't have a problem with them getting a higher bonus from having Supernatural Attributes, but I don't think they'd be immune at all.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:It would seem to me the primary problem would be that gargoyles are 30 feet tall and would require a vastly higher does of any given chemical to have a discernable effect.

SHHHHHhhhh...You know how expensive that Pepper spray is? the NGR accountants might tell the brass and no more crying gargoyles.

Alrik Vas wrote:They can have a high PE, yes. I think the point is that if they get a save from a gas grenade, their PE would affect it, but that wouldn't be any different from someone else with a high PE.

Personally i don't have a problem with them getting a higher bonus from having Supernatural Attributes, but I don't think they'd be immune at all.

Even NPC's roll 1's.

That brings up a question, actually. Is the save for a CS grenade dodging? Would it be a save vs non-leathal poison? Not sure where the rules for that are.

i would be surprised if it didn't have any effect
i would think tear gas much of the time (and pepper spray most of the time) would have an even greater effect on most animals , don't gargolyes have better than average human sight? i would think if they did all the optic capability's would go with that from nerve endings to tear ducts

the height might be an issue but i'm sure gas rising could reach 30'+ but it might take about 2-3 melee actions (great if large areas are covered and robots keep gargoyles in the gas with hand to hand attacks, not so good if a human tosses a single grenade and runs away as it wouldn't have the area , or reason for the gargoyle to stay in the gas)

I'd probably lean against tear gas having much of an effect on them; it's a chemical irritant. However, I'd also expect the NDR to have a version that will work on gargoyles... perhaps something like a dust-bomb using powdered concrete to irritate and blind them.

NGR has its own version of Olterak gas...

The RAW has no reason to say that Gargoyles (or most anything ELSE) are immune to tear gas. That said, I would, as a GM would likely make a house ruling that they are either immune, or have a lessened effect. that is after all one of the main jobs of the GM, to make the rules work for the group instead of against them.

Alrik Vas wrote:That brings up a question, actually. Is the save for a CS grenade dodging? Would it be a save vs non-leathal poison? Not sure where the rules for that are.

An interesting note, looking up the listings for Tear Gas in a few different books, there is no save. It is conspicuous by its absence, given most other gasses have saves.

13eowulf wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:That brings up a question, actually. Is the save for a CS grenade dodging? Would it be a save vs non-leathal poison? Not sure where the rules for that are.

An interesting note, looking up the listings for Tear Gas in a few different books, there is no save. It is conspicuous by its absence, given most other gasses have saves.

I would lean to a Non-Lethal poison if it hits or you get tossed into a cloud of the stuff. Now that you mention it it does seem to be on to something. Would curious what other items have no save as well.

Mark Hall wrote:I'd probably lean against tear gas having much of an effect on them; it's a chemical irritant. However, I'd also expect the NDR to have a version that will work on gargoyles... perhaps something like a dust-bomb using powdered concrete to irritate and blind them.

Add nanobots to that and you could also have nano-Concreate to more quickly construct building foundations...hmmmm not a bad thought. Thank you for that bit of inspiration.

Ok unless something inflicts md it doesn't hurt mdc. Gas which is inhaled hence WOULD Affect anything that breathes. Radiation wether its sdc or mdc damages just about everything.

Mercbook1 wrote:Just think some of us are forgetting there healing factor that it's self could be a reason that it would not effect them.

A healing factor might speed recovery but shouldn't provide immunity, that would be a different category of features. Wolverine heals pretty fast but even he gets affected by things like Tear Gas.

say652 wrote:Ok unless something inflicts md it doesn't hurt mdc. Gas which is inhaled hence WOULD Affect anything that breathes. Radiation wether its sdc or mdc damages just about everything.

Tear gas doesn't do damage, either SD or MD.....its a perfect example of 'other'

say652 wrote:Ok unless something inflicts md it doesn't hurt mdc. Gas which is inhaled hence WOULD Affect anything that breathes. Radiation wether its sdc or mdc damages just about everything.

That logic does not always hold up. So I take MDC being that needs to breath air and trap him in a cage and throw it in the ocean it sinks. Water does SDC so does a air breathing MDC creature now not die when under water for 2 years? Now then I trap another MDC creature that needs to eat in a cage and do not let him get food or drink does he not die to starvation as that is not MDC? Does a Nero mace affect MDC creatures?

If something is not rated to a type of damage then it does not mater if the target is MDC or SDC. A MDC solar panel and a SDC one both draw power from sunlight.

Mechanically there is no distinction not created in your own mind. So then lets think about how it affecting the target, a irritating burning sensation as it reacts to exposed fluids. Without anything saying they are not, based on the same type of carbon/water system as humans we must assume they are so the exposed fluids will likely have a similar chemical structure. So the same process will happen.

From my experience panicking to the strange sensation causes the affects of CS to much worse than it is. If you remain come you can operate at a reduced level, if you panic it cripples your ability to operate.

Pepper spray.
Humans are affected by Pepper Spray at a much lower dosage of the active ingredient than a Bear. Bear Spray has a much higher dosage of the same active ingredient to overcome size and natural tolerance.

I would say human tear gas would have very little if any effect on an animal the size of a gargoyle.

Greyaxe wrote:Pepper spray.
Humans are affected by Pepper Spray at a much lower dosage of the active ingredient than a Bear. Bear Spray has a much higher dosage of the same active ingredient to overcome size and natural tolerance.

I would say human tear gas would have very little if any effect on an animal the size of a gargoyle.

There is a big difference between pepper spray and tear gas. Pepper spray shoots a set does of liquid to the target. Tear gas or CS gas fills an area with vapors and the bigger you are the larger the does you get. So using something that premeasures the does as justification does not work also you are outside of the game mechanical rules.

If you rule that you can do a save vs non lethal to avoid the affects of tear gas then the gargoyle would have a better time saving than a person.

Greyaxe wrote:Pepper spray.
Humans are affected by Pepper Spray at a much lower dosage of the active ingredient than a Bear. Bear Spray has a much higher dosage of the same active ingredient to overcome size and natural tolerance.

I would say human tear gas would have very little if any effect on an animal the size of a gargoyle.

There are some animals out there that can handle their spices. Just like some people like it spicy. Pepper Spray, and Bear Spray by extention are not tear gas though. They work differently.

Did you know that there is a significant portion of people out there immune to the effects of tear gas? It's not because they can handle their spices, either.

At the end of the day though, tear gas is a gas-effect in this game, of which gargoyles do not have a listed immunity to. As as pointed out previously in this thread, they aren't 100 times more resistant to starvation or drowning either simply because they're MDC and those damages are SDC.

I think more than anything it's that CS gas isn't damage. It's just an effect and it doesn't have anything to do with resilience, really.

I've said give them lessened effects, but that's just because they're supernatural and you expect it, not because its realistic.