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What if any of a Cosmo Knights previous races special abilities would they keep after being transformed into a Cosmo Knight?

There is no provision in the CK text for any of the racial abilities to be retained.

In certain cases Attributes and only Attributes that are better than a CK you would use the higher stat. This is improbable at best.

This has been a contested bit of info that gets batted about.

One side reads this to mean they lose race abilities as they are "Reborn" by the forge.

The other side points to the above concept and notes that the CK is being empowered instead. Why would it weaken its champion by not letting them keep physical traits and any powers they are born with.

To which is pointed out that the hawk men from Atlantis who are immune to magic and if they retained this ability as a Ck wouldl over balance. This might seem true.

VR Dragon wrote:This has been a contested bit of info that gets batted about.

One side reads this to mean they lose race abilities as they are "Reborn" by the forge.

The other side points to the above concept and notes that the CK is being empowered instead. Why would it weaken its champion by not letting them keep physical traits and any powers they are born with.

To which is pointed out that the hawk men from Atlantis who are immune to magic and if they retained this ability as a Ck wouldl over balance. This might seem true.

Would the Hawk Men be valid possibilities for becoming Cosmo-Knights?

There also wouldn't be any point to the Forge picking from a variety of races if it basically made them all into humans, nor could its Knights continue to pretend to be normal members of their race without those basic racial abilities like wings to fly with or telepathic powers to communicate. You have to retain those basic racial features in order to continue to appear as a normal member of your race, without them it becomes fairly easy to detect a Cosmo-Knight engaging in undercover work when he can't demonstrate basic abilities of his race to the seedy sorts. Criminal organizations aren't known for trusting and the best you could hope for in claiming to be a crippled member of your race is being shown the door, but most likely they'd just shoot to kill and if wrong oh well time to find a new applicant.

Clearly people are afraid of abuse but at the same time they seem to be forgetting that just because something may be possible doesn't mean they have to allow a player to play one in their game (especially if they don't trust the player to not abuse it).

But for the record, I vote racial abilities are preserved both to retain flavor and for all the reasons Nightmask addressed.

--flatline

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:There is no provision in the CK text for any of the racial abilities to be retained.

Or removed.

Looonatic wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:There is no provision in the CK text for any of the racial abilities to be retained.

Or removed.

This. Totally this.

Can anyone give an example of a class description that has something to the effect of "oh, and the character still retains their natural abilities"? I doubt it. It is universally assumed. Why should Cosmo Knights be the exception?

--flatline

Problem is that there is an SN transformation problem, maybe it has to be a case by case adjudication, this goes on, this doesn't... there's no reason most mundane racial abilities (NOT magical ones and the like) would remain... an ocotoman retains the benefits of its tentacles, a Rulian still is a whiz at languages etc...

flatline wrote:

Looonatic wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:There is no provision in the CK text for any of the racial abilities to be retained.

Or removed.

This. Totally this.

Can anyone give an example of a class description that has something to the effect of "oh, and the character still retains their natural abilities"? I doubt it. It is universally assumed. Why should Cosmo Knights be the exception?

--flatline

I think the question keeps coming up relating to Cosmo-Knights as opposed to other forms of augmentation because Cosmo-Knights are unique in that they have overriding attributes rather than attribute bonuses. That implies their transformation being far more complete in that it replaces one's physical abilities rather than adding to them.

The CK text say that only the appearance of the race they came from is retained from their past life.

What's the exact text? I'm not inclined to believe this, because clearly you DO retain MORE than just appearances. For example, retaining a higher attribute if it happens to be a higher roll than the CK default.

Page 99 beginning of the first full paragraph of the 2nd column.

However, munchkins probably point to that sentence also when they are saying that they retain their former race's powers. To Use this text as the basis of giving a CK more then the CK powers is up to specific GM's to choose for their indevidual games as the GM's see fit. As such while it can be argued that it does give more powers/abilities, the argument is based "grasped at loose straws".

Other then their appearance the only thing Specifically Stated as Being Retained is their attributes if the racial stat rolls are higher then the CK stat rolls.

You summarized this paragraph as saying "only the appearance of the race they came from is retained"

I'm reading "retain their personal appearance" but nothing about this being the sole thing retained. Where does "only" appear?

The only other thing I can see of merit is "no longer have the weaknesses of normal mortals". But that is grounds to remove weaknesses, not to remove natural abilities.

This is not a matter of 'giving' the CK powers, but merely retaining abilities they have due to their race.

I don't think the text supports your 'only' addition, unless I'm missing a different statement elsewhere.

It says they lose the weaknesses of their former race, like being SDC, needing to breathe, vulnerability to energy weapons etc... it doesn't say anything about losing their previous abilities... indeed, a Rulian that lost its tremendous language ability, or an octoman who lost the coordination of its tentacles, would have trouble passing for normal members of their respective races.

I would say that since its unclear the GM will have to decide for their own game. Even if they DO keep their powers though, that doesn't mean that a player can automatically choose that. The GM would first have to allow the player to play a "Cosmo-Knight of Race X"....if you don't like the combination the rule of NO pretty useful.

eliakon wrote:I would say that since its unclear the GM will have to decide for their own game. Even if they DO keep their powers though, that doesn't mean that a player can automatically choose that. The GM would first have to allow the player to play a "Cosmo-Knight of Race X"....if you don't like the combination the rule of NO pretty useful.

Well if you're already allowing a Cosmo-Knight you've already accepted having powerful characters in the game, so there's little reason to think that somehow keeping racial abilities would be 'too much' when you're already allowing this supernaturally-powerful cosmic character in.

With all due respect to gm veto rights... having things put clear so there is no need to have the gm need to have to render a verdict would be a better use of gm time and resources.

Cosmo knight as empowered to super human level being works better and makes more sense that the forge would temper their mortal metal than transmutate them into a different race unable to have offspring unless it was with another cosmo knight.

Also becoming a mage does not overwrite your race abilites so why would the CK OCC do otherwise?

eliakon wrote:I would say that since its unclear the GM will have to decide for their own game. Even if they DO keep their powers though, that doesn't mean that a player can automatically choose that. The GM would first have to allow the player to play a "Cosmo-Knight of Race X"....if you don't like the combination the rule of NO pretty useful.

Agreed

VR Dragon wrote:With all due respect to gm veto rights... having things put clear so there is no need to have the gm need to have to render a verdict would be a better use of gm time and resources.

Cosmo knight as empowered to super human level being works better and makes more sense that the forge would temper their mortal metal than transmutate them into a different race unable to have offspring unless it was with another cosmo knight.

Also becoming a mage does not overwrite your race abilites so why would the CK OCC do otherwise?

Becoming a mage is out of the matter. The Forge will not choose seasoned persons to become a CK, if you're already a mage, it might send you dreams to put you on the way of the good fight, it won't offer you to become a CK. If you're already a CK and want to learn magic, you give up the quest the Forge gave you, and become a Fallen Knight which is another barrel of fish.

Actually you wrong a on that forge not taking seasoned characters. It will select anyone from any walk of life and prior exp level. They get a dream that asks them to become a cosmo knight. If they accept they step into the forge vision and get empowered thus forgetting all prior skills and such so they dont multiclass they kind of start over. But Cosmo knight us still an OCC so it is something that should not race change.

Page 99 under becoming a knight.

I already answered on the race thing on p99... they lose the weaknesses of being mere mortals, they don't necessarily leave the particular abilities (like a Rulian's linguisstic abilities or an octoman's tnetacles and dexterity) of their races behind, they still have to be able to pass for normal members of said original ... I don't see a zebuloid being less naturally as a pilot for having answered the call (though less slkilled for having taken the CK skill set)

*yawns* The text being referenced is for GM's to modify the CK's when they see fit and not a part of the class as per what a player can do by themselves for pre-generated chars (i.e.:book canon).

Well, sure, GM's decision is the ultimate and true answer, but where's the discussion in that.

me wrote:Questions on this board need canon answers first, then post your house rules listed as such.

Why? Cause there are newbs that are asking questions, so the answers need to not mislead them about what is the canon answer.

and there's no actual canon on the subject, the p99 bit deals with mortal weaknesses, not with previously owned abilities

I am not trying to hijack a thread but I will ask a question and then weigh in.

Question: Can Cks use techno-wizard items? The question came up and I am having a difficult time answering it. Their powers are PPE based and magic can affect them.

Now talking about canon on CKs. We are warned already that CKs can be unbalancing to a game. If I was giving advice I would say that giving more abilities to a CK is probably more unbalancing and therefore a No-No. Strictly speaking.

Logically speaking I think the argument is much stronger for "empowering" a mortal and allowing them to keep race specific advantages, powers, etc. It just doesn't make sense to take away abilities that everyone of your race and for that matter everyone in the three galaxies will expect you to have.

So as was mentioned before it falls to the GM to decide what level of play s/he wants and if the character is appropriate to that game play.

Silvananthus wrote:I am not trying to hijack a thread but I will ask a question and then weigh in.

Question: Can Cks use techno-wizard items? The question came up and I am having a difficult time answering it. Their powers are PPE based and magic can affect them.

Now talking about canon on CKs. We are warned already that CKs can be unbalancing to a game. If I was giving advice I would say that giving more abilities to a CK is probably more unbalancing and therefore a No-No. Strictly speaking.

Logically speaking I think the argument is much stronger for "empowering" a mortal and allowing them to keep race specific advantages, powers, etc. It just doesn't make sense to take away abilities that everyone of your race and for that matter everyone in the three galaxies will expect you to have.

So as was mentioned before it falls to the GM to decide what level of play s/he wants and if the character is appropriate to that game play.

There wouldn't be any reason a Cosmo-Knight couldn't use a TW item, just as they have no problems using technology or pure magic items.

Of course, TW things are kind of specific to Rifts Earth, so you need the story or backstory to explain how the CK found them...

Since CKs use PPE to power their abilities they are able to channel it into a techno wizard dodad.


And the only reason i used brought mages as an OCC was to compare the fact that you do no loose special racial powers when you become a mage or a cyber knight so having someone loose such things because they join the Cosmo Knight OCC does not follow the established ground rules. CK isnt a RCC after all.

Svartalf wrote:Of course, TW things are kind of specific to Rifts Earth, so you need the story or backstory to explain how the CK found them...

Techno-wizardry was retconned into being commonplace in the Three Galaxies a long time ago, the Worlds of Warlock even have an advanced suit of TW power armor that the Warlock Marines use in defense of their empire.

damn, you're right, I had forgotten about all that.

Svartalf wrote:damn, you're right, I had forgotten about all that.

The Three Galaxies would be quite different without that retcon (or mistake on the part of the original creator of the Phase World setting), since there are groups (like the aforementioned Warlock Marines) that are based around techno-wizardry and would as a result be quite different if they had to be either mages or technologists and couldn't make use of techno-wizardry.

Silvananthus wrote:I am not trying to hijack a thread but I will ask a question and then weigh in.

Question: Can Cks use techno-wizard items? The question came up and I am having a difficult time answering it. Their powers are PPE based and magic can affect them.
...snip

Usually I rule that PPE users can use TW devises as if they were mages. And that ISP users use TW devises use TW devices as per Psychics.

Silvananthus wrote:I am not trying to hijack a thread but I will ask a question and then weigh in.

Question: Can Cks use techno-wizard items? The question came up and I am having a difficult time answering it. Their powers are PPE based and magic can affect them.

Now talking about canon on CKs. We are warned already that CKs can be unbalancing to a game. If I was giving advice I would say that giving more abilities to a CK is probably more unbalancing and therefore a No-No. Strictly speaking.

Logically speaking I think the argument is much stronger for "empowering" a mortal and allowing them to keep race specific advantages, powers, etc. It just doesn't make sense to take away abilities that everyone of your race and for that matter everyone in the three galaxies will expect you to have.

So as was mentioned before it falls to the GM to decide what level of play s/he wants and if the character is appropriate to that game play.

Absolutely. They are supernatural creatures with vast amounts of PPE. Of course they can use TW items.

Thanks guys,

The CKs using techno-wizard devices make sense. I just couldn't find anywhere that it had been approached. I think that if I was playing a CK (I am not, I'm the GM in this campaign) one of the very first things I would do is try to acquire some magical protection in the form of technowizard devices or magical items because of the CK vulnerabilities. I wonder however if "depending on magic" as opposed to my "forge given" abilities isn't a path to corruption and becoming a fallen knight!

Silvananthus wrote:Thanks guys,

The CKs using techno-wizard devices make sense. I just couldn't find anywhere that it had been approached. I think that if I was playing a CK (I am not, I'm the GM in this campaign) one of the very first things I would do is try to acquire some magical protection in the form of technowizard devices or magical items because of the CK vulnerabilities. I wonder however if "depending on magic" as opposed to my "forge given" abilities isn't a path to corruption and becoming a fallen knight!

If its needed I don't see a problem. Its the temptation for 'worldly things' that can get you...and the desire for more power....
But if your going up against an evil wizard sure go right ahead, your good not stupid.

eliakon wrote:Even if they DO keep their powers though, that doesn't mean that a player can automatically choose that. The GM would first have to allow the player to play a "Cosmo-Knight of Race X"....if you don't like the combination the rule of NO pretty useful.

Can we avoid silly disclaimers like this in discussion seeing as how GMs have to approve ALL characters they allow into their games? You could say this for ANY subject on the forums. It's common knowledge and a default assumption.

VR Dragon wrote:If they accept they step into the forge vision and get empowered thus forgetting all prior skills and such so they dont multiclass they kind of start over.

Well... reading it literally, they only explicitly lose "skills", so there's not a clear statement saying you must lose spell-casting or OCC abilities.

Would a Cobbler lose his magic and be demoted to a normal Goblin?

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:*yawns* The text being referenced is for GM's to modify the CK's when they see fit and not a part of the class as per what a player can do by themselves for pre-generated chars (i.e.:book canon).

Source on statement being GMs only?

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:there are newbs that are asking questions, so the answers need to not mislead them about what is the canon answer.

It seems to me that declaring CosmoKs lose their racial abilities without text to support that claim is what might potentially mislead newbies.

Nightmask wrote:There wouldn't be any reason a Cosmo-Knight couldn't use a TW item, just as they have no problems using technology or pure magic items.

The reason they might not be able to use some (most?) TW items is the same reason that most mundanes can't: because by default they are only usable by psychics and practitioners of magic and select OCCs or races that can explicitly use them.

There may be an exception with PPE clips on some Stormspire weapons, not entirely clear on that bit.

Although their PPE is ridiculous, having high PPE doesn't automatically make you capable of using TW items.

Nightmask wrote:Techno-wizardry was retconned into being commonplace in the Three Galaxies a long time ago, the Worlds of Warlock even have an advanced suit of TW power armor that the Warlock Marines use in defense of their empire.

I wouldn't exactly call it a retcon since it was in Phase World from the get-go. It existing there prior to its invention in North America does not necessarily create a conflict, with careful application of time travel.

Looonatic wrote:They are supernatural creatures with vast amounts of PPE. Of course they can use TW items.

Where do you get the idea that either high PPE or being supernatural makes you capable of using TW devices?

RMBp89 only says "a fellow practitioner of magic or psychic can use a techno-wizard's machine". Rifts91 elaborates:
*only practitioners of magic can operate items that require spell magic to be cast
*psychics can operate ley line devices and psionic powered items
*a person without magic abilities (or psionic when applicable) can NOT use a techno-wizard device, even if fully charged

Was this expanded at some point? As I see it, a CK would need to be psychic to use TW devices, and even then would be limited to ley line devices or TK/psionic-related items.

Did RUE just suddenly let every supernatural creature or people with impressive PPE use this stuff?

Tor wrote:

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:there are newbs that are asking questions, so the answers need to not mislead them about what is the canon answer.

It seems to me that declaring CosmoKs lose their racial abilities without text to support that claim is what might potentially mislead newbies.

Nope, because they don't get any of the racial abilities. There is no Text in the stats that reflect the retention of any of their former abilities. All the stats listed for Cosmo-Knights are the stats for all Cosmo-Knights.

And we have already covered this before, and you have failed to show a clear statement in the text supporting you stance. Yes, there is a murky sentence in the flavor text that sort of might support your assertions, but that sentence's ideas did not make the grade when the stats were written out. Thus, make such determination is in the murky realm controlled by individual GMs to decide if that one murky sentence hold water for their game. As such it is not a part of canon that a player can decide for themselves that they can do. And therefor is a part of House Rules that must be presented as house rules.

After saying all of that to you, Anyone saying that "Yes, Cosmo-Knights get racial abilities from their former race." unilaterally is doing the misleading because they are stating their house rules as if they were canon.

CK is an OCC, not an RCC, ergo, it can be combined with a race, no need for a special text for that.

I have it on good authority that techno-wizard elves do not retain their night vision since there is nothing explicit in the techno-wizard OCC saying that you retain your racial abilities while selecting it.

All the stats listed for Cosmo-Knights are the stats for all Cosmo-Knights.

Source? It even mentions that superior natural attributes replace the template. Why are you thinking natural abilities aren't retained?

SE said the batch of it, there is a base race and you only change what it says to change, and it doesn't say to remove natural abilities.

A Wolfen Cosmo-Knight wouldn't fit in too well if he couldn't track by scent, a Noro CosmoK wouldn't fit in well if they couldn't communicate telepathically, and a Gnome CosmoK's inability to do architecture will stand out.

Svartalf wrote:CK is an OCC, not an RCC, ergo, it can be combined with a race, no need for a special text for that.

You do have a point there, OCC have the underlying consideration that they make no changes to the base race/nature of the character unless specifically noted and Cosmo-Knights make no mention of removing natural racial abilities and instead points to where it simply upgrades the base race instead (like improved stat dice or becoming MDC).

A Noro CK that lost its psi powers would seem pretty ludicrous, wouldn't it?

Svartalf wrote:A Noro CK that lost its psi powers would seem pretty ludicrous, wouldn't it?

Pretty much, same with a Mind Bleeder that somehow managed to meet the Forge's requirements. Cosmo-Knight is clearly an add-on (although the reshaping process does apparently screw with your skills somehow). Then again like many OCC like this one it seems to operate from an underlying assumption that somehow everyone selected is somehow basically a level zero character that hadn't done much before qualifying rather than it selecting say a level 10 Special Forces guy who proved to have the right stuff (I guess it's possible it only wants newbies since it seems unlikely that no one who's experienced could meet the qualifications).

CosmoKification messes with your skills even more than Apoking does. It seems like it compromises you as much as being Guardianed. Why do the Forge and the Light want their servants to forget their past so much? It's suspicious, is what it is.

Conversely, a Fallen Guardian who makes pact with the Dark to become a Dark Guardian keeps their skills. As do Fallen Cosmo Knights, and even Demon Knights (though they suffer memory compromising) don't explicitly lose all their skills like this either.

Guardian? What's that from? Same for Demon Knights0

Svartalf wrote:CK is an OCC, not an RCC, ergo, it can be combined with a race, no need for a special text for that.

Nah, the Cosmo Knight class does not really fall into any of the three class types. Being the major portion of the class is being 'empowered' by the Cosmic Forge. However, calling it an RCC is the closest one of the three CC types.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Svartalf wrote:CK is an OCC, not an RCC, ergo, it can be combined with a race, no need for a special text for that.

Nah, the Cosmo Knight class does not really fall into any of the three class types. Being the major portion of the class is being 'empowered' by the Cosmic Forge. However, calling it an RCC is the closest one of the three CC types.

Is a witch an RCC then?

--flatline

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:

Svartalf wrote:CK is an OCC, not an RCC, ergo, it can be combined with a race, no need for a special text for that.

Nah, the Cosmo Knight class does not really fall into any of the three class types. Being the major portion of the class is being 'empowered' by the Cosmic Forge. However, calling it an RCC is the closest one of the three CC types.

That would be valid....if the book didn't explicitly say it was an OCC. ergo, until the canon changes its an OCC.