Do Spells count as ranged attacks for initiative

[kiralon]

I say no for casting time reasons, some of my players say yes.

The reason I ask is the 2nd ed book says that ranged attacks go first, and I play that as readied ranged attacks go first, and the rest are as normal initiative

[drewkitty ~..~]

If the range from the caster to the target is greater then "touch", Yes.

It also depends on where the caster is: "In the middle of a melee fight?" no they are not ranged. And any higher level spells might get interrupted if using the RUE spell casing times.

Remember, you are the GM and have final say on things...just don't be a little 'tin god' about things.

[kiralon]

cheers

[Tor]

the 2nd ed book says that ranged attacks go first

Which pages says this? I thought it only applied to surprise attacks.

You can make a surprise attack with a bow pretty easily, but if you're within hearing range and use the spoken word to cast your spell, that might spoil an ambush.

[kiralon]

the 2nd ed book says that ranged attacks go first

Which pages says this? I thought it only applied to surprise attacks.

You can make a surprise attack with a bow pretty easily, but if you're within hearing range and use the spoken word to cast your spell, that might spoil an ambush.

p.43

[Tor]

The "Long Range Attack" (special italics) mentioned there doesn't seem to show up in the PF glossary, happens when you reprint other book's contents and then cull recklessly.

Checking N&SS, the LRA 'undetected first strike' (effectively a sneak attack, same thing) has 'provided the attacker is not seen' disclaimer.

It clarifies "not to be confused with 'long range' described in combat range".

So if your chanting leads you to be seen, or someone sees your spellcasting coming, even if launching lightning from a thousand feet off, you don't get the initiative.

[zyanitevp]

I do sneak attacks as first only, then initiative.

[Prysus]

I say no for casting time reasons, some of my players say yes.

The reason I ask is the 2nd ed book says that ranged attacks go first, and I play that as readied ranged attacks go first, and the rest are as normal initiative

Greetings and Salutations. Page 43 ... huh? You know, never read that before. Interesting. Reading it, these ar my thoughts on the matter ...

Page 43 states "Long-Range Attacks" have initiative. To me, this is an important distinction between range and long-ranged. The only other definition of "long-range" I can find is in the Sniper skill found on page 52. Here, we see it defined as 300 feet (91.4 m) or better.

As such, I'd break it down this way (by the rules) ...

1: Is your attack occuring at 300 feet or greater? If no, this does not apply. If yes, see 2.

2: Is your opponent using an attack at 300 feet or greater? If no, you have initiative (since he can't attack you anyways!). If yes, roll initiative as normal (you both can't have initiative, and ties result in a reroll).

Now my perosnal opinion on the matter is that the rule is saying something pretty basic. The rule is that whoever has initiative keeps it until the end of the round. If only person can attack, that person wins initiative by default. So I'll put it in this scenario ...

Situation: You have a bow and are standing 50 feet* out. I have a sword, and have a speed of 25.
First action: Can I attack you with my sword? No (you should even be out of throwing range). As such, I cannot attack. So which one of us should attack first? The person who CAN attack. As such, you get initiative. You fire your bow. I spend my turn running towards you. With my speed (not factoring in time to reach max velocity, etc.) I can reach you in 2 seconds (we'll just say 1 melee action though for simplicity).
Second action: I can strike you with my sword now! Yea! However, the person who has initiative keeps it until the end of the round. In this case, that's you. As such, you still get to attack first (and will continue to do so until the end of the melee round).
Next action: Continue as such.
Next Round: We roll for initiative as normal (unless you've managed to put me at range again).

*Note: 50 feet does not fall under the "long-range" definition I provided earlier. However, I feel it does fit what the book was trying to say. That is, of course, my opinion.

So ultimately I guess I'm trying to say this rule isn't about using a ranged attack, but about using an attack at range. That's at least my take on it. Take that for what you will. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys to all.

[The Dark Elf]

I say no for casting time reasons, some of my players say yes.

The reason I ask is the 2nd ed book says that ranged attacks go first, and I play that as readied ranged attacks go first, and the rest are as normal initiative

Greetings and Salutations. Page 43 ... huh? You know, never read that before. Interesting. Reading it, these ar my thoughts on the matter ...

Page 43 states "Long-Range Attacks" have initiative. To me, this is an important distinction between range and long-ranged. The only other definition of "long-range" I can find is in the Sniper skill found on page 52. Here, we see it defined as 300 feet (91.4 m) or better.

As such, I'd break it down this way (by the rules) ...

1: Is your attack occuring at 300 feet or greater? If no, this does not apply. If yes, see 2.

2: Is your opponent using an attack at 300 feet or greater? If no, you have initiative (since he can't attack you anyways!). If yes, roll initiative as normal (you both can't have initiative, and ties result in a reroll).

Now my perosnal opinion on the matter is that the rule is saying something pretty basic. The rule is that whoever has initiative keeps it until the end of the round. If only person can attack, that person wins initiative by default. So I'll put it in this scenario ...

Situation: You have a bow and are standing 50 feet* out. I have a sword, and have a speed of 25.
First action: Can I attack you with my sword? No (you should even be out of throwing range). As such, I cannot attack. So which one of us should attack first? The person who CAN attack. As such, you get initiative. You fire your bow. I spend my turn running towards you. With my speed (not factoring in time to reach max velocity, etc.) I can reach you in 2 seconds (we'll just say 1 melee action though for simplicity).
Second action: I can strike you with my sword now! Yea! However, the person who has initiative keeps it until the end of the round. In this case, that's you. As such, you still get to attack first (and will continue to do so until the end of the melee round).
Next action: Continue as such.
Next Round: We roll for initiative as normal (unless you've managed to put me at range again).

*Note: 50 feet does not fall under the "long-range" definition I provided earlier. However, I feel it does fit what the book was trying to say. That is, of course, my opinion.

So ultimately I guess I'm trying to say this rule isn't about using a ranged attack, but about using an attack at range. That's at least my take on it. Take that for what you will. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys to all.

/agree

[kiralon]

I say no for casting time reasons, some of my players say yes.

The reason I ask is the 2nd ed book says that ranged attacks go first, and I play that as readied ranged attacks go first, and the rest are as normal initiative

Greetings and Salutations. Page 43 ... huh? You know, never read that before. Interesting. Reading it, these ar my thoughts on the matter ...

Page 43 states "Long-Range Attacks" have initiative. To me, this is an important distinction between range and long-ranged. The only other definition of "long-range" I can find is in the Sniper skill found on page 52. Here, we see it defined as 300 feet (91.4 m) or better.

As such, I'd break it down this way (by the rules) ...

1: Is your attack occuring at 300 feet or greater? If no, this does not apply. If yes, see 2.

2: Is your opponent using an attack at 300 feet or greater? If no, you have initiative (since he can't attack you anyways!). If yes, roll initiative as normal (you both can't have initiative, and ties result in a reroll).

Now my perosnal opinion on the matter is that the rule is saying something pretty basic. The rule is that whoever has initiative keeps it until the end of the round. If only person can attack, that person wins initiative by default. So I'll put it in this scenario ...

Situation: You have a bow and are standing 50 feet* out. I have a sword, and have a speed of 25.
First action: Can I attack you with my sword? No (you should even be out of throwing range). As such, I cannot attack. So which one of us should attack first? The person who CAN attack. As such, you get initiative. You fire your bow. I spend my turn running towards you. With my speed (not factoring in time to reach max velocity, etc.) I can reach you in 2 seconds (we'll just say 1 melee action though for simplicity).
Second action: I can strike you with my sword now! Yea! However, the person who has initiative keeps it until the end of the round. In this case, that's you. As such, you still get to attack first (and will continue to do so until the end of the melee round).
Next action: Continue as such.
Next Round: We roll for initiative as normal (unless you've managed to put me at range again).

*Note: 50 feet does not fall under the "long-range" definition I provided earlier. However, I feel it does fit what the book was trying to say. That is, of course, my opinion.

So ultimately I guess I'm trying to say this rule isn't about using a ranged attack, but about using an attack at range. That's at least my take on it. Take that for what you will. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys to all.

/agree

That's pretty much how it works out when I do it, but I do allow a free 10 ft move and swing, and if they can get you with that, even if you are nocked, aiming and waiting you both roll init anyway.

but they read the long range attack and tried it out as long range is relative to whatever is being used. (300 ft is out of range for a dart for example)

[zyanitevp]

I say no for casting time reasons, some of my players say yes.

The reason I ask is the 2nd ed book says that ranged attacks go first, and I play that as readied ranged attacks go first, and the rest are as normal initiative

Greetings and Salutations. Page 43 ... huh? You know, never read that before. Interesting. Reading it, these ar my thoughts on the matter ...

Page 43 states "Long-Range Attacks" have initiative. To me, this is an important distinction between range and long-ranged. The only other definition of "long-range" I can find is in the Sniper skill found on page 52. Here, we see it defined as 300 feet (91.4 m) or better.

As such, I'd break it down this way (by the rules) ...

1: Is your attack occuring at 300 feet or greater? If no, this does not apply. If yes, see 2.

2: Is your opponent using an attack at 300 feet or greater? If no, you have initiative (since he can't attack you anyways!). If yes, roll initiative as normal (you both can't have initiative, and ties result in a reroll).

Now my perosnal opinion on the matter is that the rule is saying something pretty basic. The rule is that whoever has initiative keeps it until the end of the round. If only person can attack, that person wins initiative by default. So I'll put it in this scenario ...

Situation: You have a bow and are standing 50 feet* out. I have a sword, and have a speed of 25.
First action: Can I attack you with my sword? No (you should even be out of throwing range). As such, I cannot attack. So which one of us should attack first? The person who CAN attack. As such, you get initiative. You fire your bow. I spend my turn running towards you. With my speed (not factoring in time to reach max velocity, etc.) I can reach you in 2 seconds (we'll just say 1 melee action though for simplicity).
Second action: I can strike you with my sword now! Yea! However, the person who has initiative keeps it until the end of the round. In this case, that's you. As such, you still get to attack first (and will continue to do so until the end of the melee round).
Next action: Continue as such.
Next Round: We roll for initiative as normal (unless you've managed to put me at range again).

*Note: 50 feet does not fall under the "long-range" definition I provided earlier. However, I feel it does fit what the book was trying to say. That is, of course, my opinion.

So ultimately I guess I'm trying to say this rule isn't about using a ranged attack, but about using an attack at range. That's at least my take on it. Take that for what you will. Thank you for your time and patience, please have a nice day. Farewell and safe journeys to all.

/agree

//agree

[victor15065]

You don't get all your attacks then the next person combat goes back and forth till all run out then start over

[URLeader Hobbes]

Under the initiative step it states that someone who is Sneak attacking or attacking from Long Range goes first. So imagining a battle on a field, this means that archers, mages and anyone else making a long range attack goes first..

Fair enough… Just one problem.. The book doesn’t state how far away you have to be in order to be making a long range attack.. 50 feet? 100 feet? Out of any potential melee attacks altogether? It doesn't say. What if a guy is attacking with a bow but is in melee range of another foe, but taking a shot at someone from a distance? How does this work? Does he get to fire and get stabbed later on by the foe within melee range? This is necessary to know since mages who get attacked are likely to mess up the spells they are casting.

This vital tidbit of info being left out is cause for some great concern as it seriously empowers long bowmen and any mage who might be casting a spell. With the rules in the Mysteries of Magic book 1st and 2nd level spells only take one action to cast. Let’s say we go with 90 ft being a long range attack, this means a mage who opts to cast a spell this round goes first. So Increase Weight, Befuddle, Cloud of Slumber, and Fear can all be cast as a long range attack before anyone else has a chance of taking an action. (Regardless of who "won" the initiative)

So I think a bit of clarification needs to be done on what constitutes “Long Range Attacks” Unfortunately this is never brought to light in the game as far as I can tell.

This effectively throws initiative out the window if a ranged attack is far enough away. So ranged attacks get to volley first. Then anyone left standing gets to make a move.

[eliakon]

Under the initiative step it states that someone who is Sneak attacking or attacking from Long Range goes first. So imagining a battle on a field, this means that archers, mages and anyone else making a long range attack goes first..

Fair enough… Just one problem.. The book doesn’t state how far away you have to be in order to be making a long range attack.. 50 feet? 100 feet? Out of any potential melee attacks altogether? It doesn't say. What if a guy is attacking with a bow but is in melee range of another foe, but taking a shot at someone from a distance? How does this work? Does he get to fire and get stabbed later on by the foe within melee range? This is necessary to know since mages who get attacked are likely to mess up the spells they are casting.

This vital tidbit of info being left out is cause for some great concern as it seriously empowers long bowmen and any mage who might be casting a spell. With the rules in the Mysteries of Magic book 1st and 2nd level spells only take one action to cast. Let’s say we go with 90 ft being a long range attack, this means a mage who opts to cast a spell this round goes first. So Increase Weight, Befuddle, Cloud of Slumber, and Fear can all be cast as a long range attack before anyone else has a chance of taking an action. (Regardless of who "won" the initiative)

So I think a bit of clarification needs to be done on what constitutes “Long Range Attacks” Unfortunately this is never brought to light in the game as far as I can tell.

This effectively throws initiative out the window if a ranged attack is far enough away. So ranged attacks get to volley first. Then anyone left standing gets to make a move.

Page 43 states "Long-Range Attacks" have initiative. To me, this is an important distinction between range and long-ranged. The only other definition of "long-range" I can find is in the Sniper skill found on page 52. Here, we see it defined as 300 feet (91.4 m) or better.

I think Prysus had the best answer on the question of "what is long range" with this.

[Lukterran]

Ok...the only reason Long Range attacks would go first is if the other combatants aren't within combat range. They don't automatically get the init. If combat is within range for other to be able to engage or take actions then you could do init just like normal (highest first).

[Library Ogre]

This is one place where Hackmaster's second-by-second initiative really shines... If you start at 100' away, and we both go on the same second, I'm probably going to go first, because you're going to have to get yourself 100' closer to hit me with your sword, while I can toss off Magic Projectile in just a couple seconds. With a bow at the ready, I have to decide between a snap shot (which gives a penalty), or an aimed shot (which takes time).