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Shaking off one or two laser blasts and living to tell the tale of it is not the same thing as falling from orbit.

The Galactus Kid wrote:You have a built in contragravity pack. Why do you have to fall?

Greyaxe wrote:

Shaking off one or two laser blasts and living to tell the tale of it is not the same thing as falling from orbit.

I have a full conversion Cyborg who went to Phase World and tricked himself out with: combat computers; Full Environmental Upgrade, making him space worthy; an integrated Contra-Gravity Pack; and a super heavy Naruni integrated force field, 320 md total; powered by an internal nuclear reactor.

I have a theory that he could leap from a spacecraft, fly towards a planet and effectively fall into the gravity well. The FF would take the brunt of the reentry damage, possibly all with good rolls. (I have parachuting as a skill which is part of the reason I am full conversion) Then when terminal velocity is reached as I enter the lower atmosphere engage the Contra-Gravity pack and lower myself to safety.

What do you guys think?

cornholioprime wrote:

Greyaxe wrote:

Shaking off one or two laser blasts and living to tell the tale of it is not the same thing as falling from orbit.

I have a full conversion Cyborg who went to Phase World and tricked himself out with: combat computers; Full Environmental Upgrade, making him space worthy; an integrated Contra-Gravity Pack; and a super heavy Naruni integrated force field, 320 md total; powered by an internal nuclear reactor.

I have a theory that he could leap from a spacecraft, fly towards a planet and effectively fall into the gravity well. The FF would take the brunt of the reentry damage, possibly all with good rolls. (I have parachuting as a skill which is part of the reason I am full conversion) Then when terminal velocity is reached as I enter the lower atmosphere engage the Contra-Gravity pack and lower myself to safety.

What do you guys think?

Putting aside the other posters' observation that you have a working contra-gravity drive....

What gives you the idea that re-entry friction causes mega-damage? It doesn't even do that in the real world, now -high heat isn't necessarily indicative of how much damage is being caused.

Cornholio_Prime -even after 30+ years, still hates that Kal-El's spacecraft in the 1980 Superman movie went through the heart of a star without a scratch but crumpled like aluminum foil when it entered Earth's atmosphere

cornholioprime wrote:Putting aside the other posters' observation that you have a working contra-gravity drive....

What gives you the idea that re-entry friction causes mega-damage? It doesn't even do that in the real world, now -high heat isn't necessarily indicative of how much damage is being caused.

Alrik Vas wrote:Yet, there would be technology that could be applied to protect the pilot, wouldn't there be?

flatline wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:Putting aside the other posters' observation that you have a working contra-gravity drive....

What gives you the idea that re-entry friction causes mega-damage? It doesn't even do that in the real world, now -high heat isn't necessarily indicative of how much damage is being caused.

This is where game mechanics don't mesh well with reality.

For instance, we all agree that modern nuclear weapons would cause megadamage and modern small arms don't, but we have no non-arbitrary test for any of this. The Shuttle doesn't (usually) burn up on re-entry because it has a heat shield built specifically to allow it to survive re-entry, yet there's no way a SAMAS could do the same even though the heat shield can be damaged by your finger and the SAMAS armor is virtually indestructible by modern standards. Even if the SAMAS itself survived, the pilot would be cooked inside.

Go figure.

--flatline

glitterboy2098 wrote:yep.. use your engine to slow down from orbital speeds and come pretty much straight down.

Greyaxe wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:yep.. use your engine to slow down from orbital speeds and come pretty much straight down.

Ok. Is a contra-gravity pack trans atmospheric?

cornholioprime wrote:

flatline wrote:

cornholioprime wrote:Putting aside the other posters' observation that you have a working contra-gravity drive....

What gives you the idea that re-entry friction causes mega-damage? It doesn't even do that in the real world, now -high heat isn't necessarily indicative of how much damage is being caused.

This is where game mechanics don't mesh well with reality.

For instance, we all agree that modern nuclear weapons would cause megadamage and modern small arms don't, but we have no non-arbitrary test for any of this. The Shuttle doesn't (usually) burn up on re-entry because it has a heat shield built specifically to allow it to survive re-entry, yet there's no way a SAMAS could do the same even though the heat shield can be damaged by your finger and the SAMAS armor is virtually indestructible by modern standards. Even if the SAMAS itself survived, the pilot would be cooked inside.

Go figure.

--flatline

Side question:

Are any of us even sure that a relatively low-mass object, traveling at a relatively low speed, would even burn up on re-entry in the first place?

Objects like the space shuttle and meteorites are typically traveling at thousands of miles an hour (the former because of the speeds involved in interplanetary/interstellar travel, the latter because it has to maintain a certain speed to maintain a given orbit) relative to the planet, not the falling Power Armor/Full Conversion Cyborg in the OP scenario.

cornholioprime wrote:What gives you the idea that re-entry friction causes mega-damage? It doesn't even do that in the real world, now -high heat isn't necessarily indicative of how much damage is being caused.

cornholioprime wrote:hates that Kal-El's spacecraft in the 1980 Superman movie went through the heart of a star without a scratch but crumpled like aluminum foil when it entered Earth's atmosphere

flatline wrote:there's no way a SAMAS could do the same even though the heat shield can be damaged by your finger and the SAMAS armor is virtually indestructible by modern standards. Even if the SAMAS itself survived, the pilot would be cooked inside.

Tor wrote:

flatline wrote:there's no way a SAMAS could do the same even though the heat shield can be damaged by your finger and the SAMAS armor is virtually indestructible by modern standards. Even if the SAMAS itself survived, the pilot would be cooked inside.

I thought environmental body armor helped regulate your internal temperature and that power armor tended to be even better than normal EBA in that regard. Do we know what the limits are and if re-entry would exceed them?

It seems to help them well enough against Bursters and Fire Dragons.

Slight001 wrote:

Tor wrote:

flatline wrote:there's no way a SAMAS could do the same even though the heat shield can be damaged by your finger and the SAMAS armor is virtually indestructible by modern standards. Even if the SAMAS itself survived, the pilot would be cooked inside.

I thought environmental body armor helped regulate your internal temperature and that power armor tended to be even better than normal EBA in that regard. Do we know what the limits are and if re-entry would exceed them?

It seems to help them well enough against Bursters and Fire Dragons.

you should look at the common traits of powered armor and body armor again. I'm at my sisters away from my books right now otherwise I'd give you a proper page number / quote to show that the temperature range these systems protect against is surprisingly low given the types of weapons that are encountered upon the rifts battlefields.

glitterboy2098 wrote:Most of the heat generating weapon in rifts only last less than a second, and expend most of that energy burning/melting armor. The heat resistance limits listed are for sustained heat, like walking thru fire or hot climates.

For reentry, even if the armor is proof against the damage inflicted, heat bleed thru buy the multi thousand degree fireball your creating for several minutes due to friction would likely kill you.

Tor wrote:...I think we need some rules on fall damage into water too, since that presumably is slightly less damaging than falling onto land...

flatline wrote:EBA: RUE p267: "Insulated, high temperature resistant shielding for up to 200 degrees centigrade. Normal fires do no damage. Nuclear, plasma, and magic fires do full damage"

So if I pour gasoline on you in your armor and light you on fire, the armor will be undamaged since it's normal fire, but the 900C flame will cook you on the inside. Of course we don't know how quickly the internal temperature control will be overwhelmed.

Power Armor is described the same on p271 except it protects up to 400C, so a gasoline fire will still cook you just fine if given enough time.

The Beast wrote:

Tor wrote:...I think we need some rules on fall damage into water too, since that presumably is slightly less damaging than falling onto land...

Actually that's only true at low speeds and low (comparatively) heights. http://adventure.howstuffworks.com/outdoor-activities/water-sports/cliff-diving3.htm

Tor wrote:

flatline wrote:EBA: RUE p267: "Insulated, high temperature resistant shielding for up to 200 degrees centigrade. Normal fires do no damage. Nuclear, plasma, and magic fires do full damage"

So if I pour gasoline on you in your armor and light you on fire, the armor will be undamaged since it's normal fire, but the 900C flame will cook you on the inside. Of course we don't know how quickly the internal temperature control will be overwhelmed.

Power Armor is described the same on p271 except it protects up to 400C, so a gasoline fire will still cook you just fine if given enough time.

I just don't think I'm really aware of how hot normal fires can get.

Bust out the molotovs against the Super-SAMAS, folks. They're not just useful for Inquisitors against demons in terms of MDC combat anymore.

Please tell me at least robots are protected... picturing UAR1 enforces and Spider-Skull walkers being deactivated via molotov-throwing vagabonds.

Tor wrote:I guess that gives some useful incentive to robots, they were kind of lacking it except for the range of their weapons in terms of cost. Human life is cheaper to shove into mass amounts of low-quality PA.

Nightfactory wrote:Just play a Frank Sinatra OCC. He fell out of orbit and survived.

Nightfactory wrote:Frank Sinatra fell out of orbit and survived.

glitterboy2098 wrote:sounds like a high tech MOOSE. not sure i'd be crazy enough to try it. the only problem i can see is that by canon forcefields allow the passage of atmosphere thru them, so using a force field as an aerobrake probably wouldn't work too well.

flatline wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:Most of the heat generating weapon in rifts only last less than a second, and expend most of that energy burning/melting armor. The heat resistance limits listed are for sustained heat, like walking thru fire or hot climates.

For reentry, even if the armor is proof against the damage inflicted, heat bleed thru buy the multi thousand degree fireball your creating for several minutes due to friction would likely kill you.

I agree with your post, but I thought I'd point out a common misconception that I've bolded in your post above. The heat isn't due to friction, but to compression. You're falling through the air faster than the air can move out of your way, so the air in front of you is compressed which, of course, raises the temperature according to the ideal gas law. Raise it enough and it become a plasma like it is for the space shuttle.

--flatline

Zer0 Kay wrote:

flatline wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:Most of the heat generating weapon in rifts only last less than a second, and expend most of that energy burning/melting armor. The heat resistance limits listed are for sustained heat, like walking thru fire or hot climates.

For reentry, even if the armor is proof against the damage inflicted, heat bleed thru buy the multi thousand degree fireball your creating for several minutes due to friction would likely kill you.

I agree with your post, but I thought I'd point out a common misconception that I've bolded in your post above. The heat isn't due to friction, but to compression. You're falling through the air faster than the air can move out of your way, so the air in front of you is compressed which, of course, raises the temperature according to the ideal gas law. Raise it enough and it become a plasma like it is for the space shuttle.

--flatline

So your saying NONE of the air escapes and NONE of the heat is from friction? Or are you saing the vast majority of the heat is from compression?

flatline wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:

flatline wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:Most of the heat generating weapon in rifts only last less than a second, and expend most of that energy burning/melting armor. The heat resistance limits listed are for sustained heat, like walking thru fire or hot climates.

For reentry, even if the armor is proof against the damage inflicted, heat bleed thru buy the multi thousand degree fireball your creating for several minutes due to friction would likely kill you.

I agree with your post, but I thought I'd point out a common misconception that I've bolded in your post above. The heat isn't due to friction, but to compression. You're falling through the air faster than the air can move out of your way, so the air in front of you is compressed which, of course, raises the temperature according to the ideal gas law. Raise it enough and it become a plasma like it is for the space shuttle.

--flatline

So your saying NONE of the air escapes and NONE of the heat is from friction? Or are you saing the vast majority of the heat is from compression?

None, because friction with a gas does not exist in the way you're thinking.

Go read up on the kinetic theory of gases and ask yourself "what is air friction?".

--flatline

Giant2005 wrote:

flatline wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:

flatline wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:Most of the heat generating weapon in rifts only last less than a second, and expend most of that energy burning/melting armor. The heat resistance limits listed are for sustained heat, like walking thru fire or hot climates.

For reentry, even if the armor is proof against the damage inflicted, heat bleed thru buy the multi thousand degree fireball your creating for several minutes due to friction would likely kill you.

I agree with your post, but I thought I'd point out a common misconception that I've bolded in your post above. The heat isn't due to friction, but to compression. You're falling through the air faster than the air can move out of your way, so the air in front of you is compressed which, of course, raises the temperature according to the ideal gas law. Raise it enough and it become a plasma like it is for the space shuttle.

--flatline

So your saying NONE of the air escapes and NONE of the heat is from friction? Or are you saing the vast majority of the heat is from compression?

None, because friction with a gas does not exist in the way you're thinking.

Go read up on the kinetic theory of gases and ask yourself "what is air friction?".

--flatline

Air Friction

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:

flatline wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:

flatline wrote:
I agree with your post, but I thought I'd point out a common misconception that I've bolded in your post above. The heat isn't due to friction, but to compression. You're falling through the air faster than the air can move out of your way, so the air in front of you is compressed which, of course, raises the temperature according to the ideal gas law. Raise it enough and it become a plasma like it is for the space shuttle.

--flatline

So your saying NONE of the air escapes and NONE of the heat is from friction? Or are you saing the vast majority of the heat is from compression?

None, because friction with a gas does not exist in the way you're thinking.

Go read up on the kinetic theory of gases and ask yourself "what is air friction?".

--flatline

Air Friction

Thank you

Also, flatline, if there was no friction from air molecules the concept of Tesla's bladeless turbine wouldn't work.

Fluids including air have viscosity and will adhere to surfaces passing through them. If not how does the moisture collected on aircraft wings in flight not just drop off?

Heck flight wouldn't even be possible because the leading edge would just be compressing the air rather than splitting it and causing a low pressure area under the wing because the airflow going over the wing has more surface area to travel. No friction, no airflow adhering to the wing. Do you know what it's called when the airflow doesn't adhere to the wing? A stall. No friction, no adherence.

flatline wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Giant2005 wrote:

flatline wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:So your saying NONE of the air escapes and NONE of the heat is from friction? Or are you saing the vast majority of the heat is from compression?

None, because friction with a gas does not exist in the way you're thinking.

Go read up on the kinetic theory of gases and ask yourself "what is air friction?".

--flatline

Air Friction

Thank you

Also, flatline, if there was no friction from air molecules the concept of Tesla's bladeless turbine wouldn't work.

The transfer of momentum during an elastic collision between a gas molecule and a solid is sufficient to explain why it works. When you sum all of the collisions at a particular moment in time, the result is the impulse vector. When you sum all the impulse vectors over time, you get the force vector which causes the turbine to work.

Fluids including air have viscosity and will adhere to surfaces passing through them. If not how does the moisture collected on aircraft wings in flight not just drop off?

Surface tension is a property of liquids, not gases.

The boundary layer of gases near a moving surface is the result of gas particles colliding with that surface, having their momentum changed from the mean of the particles in the area, and then colliding with the particles that have not yet had their momentum changed by the moving surface. This transfer of momentum from the moving surface to the gas molecules is perceived as drag at the macroscopic scale. Again, it is the sum of the impulse vectors from each collision.

Heck flight wouldn't even be possible because the leading edge would just be compressing the air rather than splitting it and causing a low pressure area under the wing because the airflow going over the wing has more surface area to travel. No friction, no airflow adhering to the wing. Do you know what it's called when the airflow doesn't adhere to the wing? A stall. No friction, no adherence.

http://www.chem.hope.edu/~polik/Chem345 ... osity.html

Enjoy. The viscosity of gases is a macroscopic effect of many many many individual elastic collisions between (layers of) particles as they interact with a moving surface and layers of particles moving at different average velocities.

--flatline