Controlling the Demon Knights

[Tor]

Do the Demon Lords actually have any means of controlling the Demon Knights? Is there anything stopping them from switching allegiance to another Demon Lord? Like what if, for example, Charun made a Demon Knight and then the Knight ratted him out to Modeus?

I don't recall if it explicitly said this, but I get the general impression that Demon Knights and Witches both reveal their true name to their main Lord, so that would be some measure of control making them vulnerable to summoning and magic. But since it is possible to rename yourself per Heart of Magic that's not really a long-term guarantee. If a Demon Knight stopped worshipping the Lord before the ceremony, there would be no window into knowing what the new name is.

Do you think a Knight's Lord could depower them if betrayed, similar to how the Forge depowers Cosmo-Knights? If so, what would the stats of a Fallen Demon-Knight be? It is mentioned that some of the Demon Knights are promoted from Greater Demonic Mortals so I was wondering if we should just reduce them to those stats in the case of treachery.

With so many Lords and their infighting, I think perhaps if you keep your treachery secret, it might be possible to switch Lords under the noses of an initial master and avoid the de-power process (assuming the process exists and it is possible to de-demon a DemonK.

To do so shouldn't be that easy though, probably require some kind of ritual, since you'd have to change the symbol and stuff.

With FcosmoKs keeping their weapon and losing their armor, what do you think is the case with FdemonKs? Maybe some spin like losing the awesome weapon but keeping the inferior armor?

I was also never clear if FcosmoKs who retained their cosmic weapon could use it conjunction with the new demon blade, or if something about the forging processed destroyed the normally indestructible thing or made it unsummonable.

[Nekira Sudacne]

Reading through them carefully, it seems that they cannot in fact be de-powered. The process is explictly stated to be complete and irreversable, their old body is completely purged and replaced with a supernatural one. It also destroys almost all of their memories in the process. A newborn demon knight is essentially an amnesiac, with only fleeting fragments of their old life yet. They are reborn as greater demons and considered such for all supernatural purposes.

Amusing, this means if you get their true name, you could summon them with a summoning circle.

But no, the way they are written, they have no built-in means of control.

[Tor]

I'm left a bit iffy on whether or not they are actual full greater demons... I mean, it says to 'consider' the Plant/Man monsters greater demons in additional to supernatural beings (not Spirit, they're creatures of magic) and so too with Dragonmages at higher levels (I would've put a 'if you get a head' prereq there) but one could plausibly be considered a greater demon without being a Hades-linked one who respawns...

Perhaps it's up in the air because IF any have died yet (not even sure if they have since they're pretty tough), the minimum waiting period before Hades-respawn hasn't gone by yet to see if they pop out of any eggs, and unlike the Deevil Lords I don't think the Demon Lords have that whole speed-up option if they want to find out quicker.

If they're capable of the respawn they are probably also capable of possessing mortal feti to respawn faster that way, but having that potential doesn't necessarily mean they're actually aware of it, or if they are, have enough knowledge or experience of the process to attempt it. I'd hazardly warrant that you'd have to reborn at least once the normal way to make a possession-enhanced second attempt, perhaps with some instruction from those who have come before.

[Tor]

I think it says something about DemonKs getting their magic from their Lord, so presumably if you betrayed them, were discovered and abandoned, you could no longer learn new magic as you levelled up...

Although can't they just buy magic normally? Not sure whether or not...

Even if it stopped you from learning new magic, I don't think it means you would forget the stuff you already learned though. It seems like they would keep existing magic much like a Channeler and just be prevented from improving.

Wish I knew more about how their swords work... like do they hide their swords while they sleep so that they don't get stolen? I don't think they can just poof their swords away ilke Cosmo-Knights (even Fallen ones) apparently can.

[eliakon]

I think it says something about DemonKs getting their magic from their Lord, so presumably if you betrayed them, were discovered and abandoned, you could no longer learn new magic as you levelled up...

Although can't they just buy magic normally? Not sure whether or not...

No they can't buy spells. They are granted magic, not scholars.

Even if it stopped you from learning new magic, I don't think it means you would forget the stuff you already learned though. It seems like they would keep existing magic much like a Channeler and just be prevented from improving.

The lord can refuse to give new spells, but there is nothing in the text to suggest he can strip old ones away.

Wish I knew more about how their swords work... like do they hide their swords while they sleep so that they don't get stolen? I don't think they can just poof their swords away ilke Cosmo-Knights (even Fallen ones) apparently can.

Its a regular item. It has no special properties of hiding mentioned, so it doesn't get any.


Also don't forget if your a greater supernatural creature you can be summoned and bound....and your lord probably knows your True Name. Add in the fact that he has a basic mindlink to you. And lets not forget that as written it would seem that most of these things would WANT to be loyal. They get power, they get revenge, they get to indulge in their desires, AND they get rank and authority.....If your a psychotic-evil monster what's not to like?

[Tor]

I don't know if the True Name thing is ever explicit but I would say it is a reasonable assumption at least. Most probably they get issued a new True Name known only to the Lord. That way, anyone knowing the previous name could not use it to control such a powerful creature and it would give the Lord a monopoly.

What's not to like is basically how sometimes evil continues to grave. Sure, you get power and to indulge in desire, and rank, and authority... but it's never enough! Sure, you can be a Sovereign... but why not a Lord? I think a lot of Greater Demons dare to dream of Lordship.

I suppose magic could always be used to hide the sword or teleport it to ones' person. Also there's not exactly anything stopping these guys from learning other magical OCCs which do let them buy spells

Do you figure it's indestructible like Cosmic Weapons are?

It makes me wonder... stuff like Scathach cauldrons can melt rune weapons... but these aren't rune weapons... I'm not even sure if they qualify as magic weapons. Sure they SEEM magical but... I dunno, it's weird, cosmic may be on a whole other level, and I'm not sure whether these demon-swords are more cosmic or more magical in nature.

I hope a future sourcebook (perhaps MiF) fleshes this class out a bit. There's questions to explore. Like how much time you have to feed a sword blood before you miss the boat on getting a damage upgrade. Or what penalties/damage a DemonK takes if they don't drink blood every day.

[say652]

Imho.

Most evil things are controlled by fear of physical harm by stronger evil things. Pack mentality.

[Tor]

Yup, but they still aspire, even if it's gradual. We do have a greater demon (regent) aspiring to be a Lord though, that bear guy. Demon Knights might do that eventually too.

I expect they'd wait until they became Princes first though, just like a Deevil would become Regent first.

[say652]

Unrelated but.....
For generating hundreds of thousands of followers I was forced to elevate a Godling to a lesser god. In which he used his new powers to generate even more followers.
#ChurchMoonshade
Where community matters.

[Sir_Spirit]

I assume the Demon Knights mind is reshaped as it's body is. Thus it becomes loyal to it's new master on a level it wasn't before. It probably doesn't even want to be free from it's service, instead getting some pleasure from obeying it.

[Tor]

Their minds do get reshaped but I don't see any mention of forced loyalty or taking pleasure from service in there...

Aside from Modeus, does anyone know if any of the Demon Lords are explicitly stated to have or lack Demon Knights in their service? Guys like Belphegor or the Demon Beetles or 2/3 of the Bletherad Minor Lords all seem to have IQs too low to be trusted with them, and I think Modeus might be hesitant to allow access to the process to any of the Demon Lords he might suspect of treachery...

Although I guess anyone he did trust (like Andras) might be assigned some.

One assumes that Modeus tries to keep control over the biggest demon world (Cormal) where the DemonKs get made though since if other Lords could gain access without permission, they could great a large amount of Lords and greatly upset the balance of power. Since Modeus relies upon his Locusts to secure his reign and even a first-level Demon Knights could probably take out a Locust, regulating their creation would be very important.

Is it possible that Modeus might require assurance like knowing the true name of any DemonKs created by other Lords, although I think I remember something about there only being 1 name-lord possible, not sure on the mechanics though.