Forums of the Megaverse®

So was reading over the spell anti magic cloud. And one neat little side effect is that creatures of magic become SDC creatures while in the clouds area of effect...

This seems a wonder magic spell for a dragon slaying rune weapon to have i think. Once the dragon is SDC just shoot it with a energy blast from the magic item since it is immune to its own effects.

Well to refute your claim of being "wrong"....

Dragons are creatures of magic...

Magic on rifts earth is rampted so high that creatures of magic become MDC due to all that juice.

So a spell that was once legend is cast and makes a spot of no magic... would turn magic juiced up critters into SDC.

The text of the spell does say "limited to spell effects only"

If this isnt the case then it seems odd to state that creatures that MDC who fail the magic save become SDC but loose half their MDC if they do save. Nothing about magic spell transformations only.

It seems like it might work, though you'd have to then shoot them with something mega-damage that isn't magical...as the cloud would negate the effect...

Alrik Vas wrote:It seems like it might work, though you'd have to then shoot them with something mega-damage that isn't magical...as the cloud would negate the effect...

Well if the rune weapon cast the spell its magic Abilities would work as normal since the caster of the spell is not under the magic dampening effects.

So something like a rune sword of atlantis that has this power and hits a dragon with some 2d4x10 MD force blast would put a major boot in said dragon's butt.

Also a good spell for dragons to know themselves if they can learn it.

Just give me pre RUE version of the spell

Nightfactory wrote:Back to the second line: Creatures that are normally MDC due to magic become SDC beings. If it was the way you say it is, then it would say this instead: "Creatures that are normally MDC become SDC beings." Obviously it's been qualified for a reason.

I think you're shifting the goalposts here. Not all creatures who are MDC are necessarily MDC due to magic. Machine People for example.

The question here is that whether "MDC creature of magic" (since not all creatures of magic turn MDC, in spite of CB generalizations, since Changelings are CoMs yet SDC) equates to "MDC due to magic".

The impression I get is that any CoM who is MDC is so due to their CoM status.

However... does this apply to supernatural creatures? Some confusion is caused in regard to those who are both (like dragons) or those who are supernatural but not creatures of magic (like vampires).

Tor wrote:

Nightfactory wrote:Back to the second line: Creatures that are normally MDC due to magic become SDC beings. If it was the way you say it is, then it would say this instead: "Creatures that are normally MDC become SDC beings." Obviously it's been qualified for a reason.

I think you're shifting the goalposts here. Not all creatures who are MDC are necessarily MDC due to magic. Machine People for example.

The question here is that whether "MDC creature of magic" (since not all creatures of magic turn MDC, in spite of CB generalizations, since Changelings are CoMs yet SDC) equates to "MDC due to magic".

The impression I get is that any CoM who is MDC is so due to their CoM status.

However... does this apply to supernatural creatures? Some confusion is caused in regard to those who are both (like dragons) or those who are supernatural but not creatures of magic (like vampires).

As always, nicely put Tor.

But are there ever cases where supernatural creatures become MDC?
Dragons are supernatural as well right?

Mal

VR Dragon wrote:So was reading over the spell anti magic cloud. And one neat little side effect is that creatures of magic become SDC creatures while in the clouds area of effect...

This seems a wonder magic spell for a dragon slaying rune weapon to have i think. Once the dragon is SDC just shoot it with a energy blast from the magic item since it is immune to its own effects.

If that dosn't work, I find an effect that blocks teleporation right before a massive missile barrage kills just about anything.

Malleable wrote:are there ever cases where supernatural creatures become MDC? Dragons are supernatural as well right?

I'd say most supernatural creatures are MDC... the only ones I can think of off-hand who are not are vampires/werewolves and they both have that whole "I'm invulnerable to most things and MD attacks inflict HP to me" thing going for them.

I think Prometheans are also supernatural but they have a similar "my sexy phase body converts stuff into SDC" thing going.

The rare thing to look for would be supernatural creatures who are not MDC and lack such resistances. I'm sure there must be one but it's hard to think of one easily...

Tor wrote:

Malleable wrote:are there ever cases where supernatural creatures become MDC? Dragons are supernatural as well right?

I'd say most supernatural creatures are MDC... the only ones I can think of off-hand who are not are vampires/werewolves and they both have that whole "I'm invulnerable to most things and MD attacks inflict HP to me" thing going for them.

I think Prometheans are also supernatural but they have a similar "my sexy phase body converts stuff into SDC" thing going.

The rare thing to look for would be supernatural creatures who are not MDC and lack such resistances. I'm sure there must be one but it's hard to think of one easily...

There are a lot of Supernatural creatures that are MDC, but being supernatural doesn't immediately make that creature MDC.

Someone more knowledgable about the way the monsters were supposed to be could clarify...

Mdc hide snps. Lose spells and breath weapon.

Mummies are creatures of magic? Does this mean with a single corpse I can make unlimited Zavor?

Zavor invade the coalition. Lol.

say652 wrote:Zavor invade the coalition. Lol.

If you can find a Zavor to start with, it takes very little effort to breed millions of them. I seem to remember a thread a couple of years ago that showed how little effort it took to set things up so that your steady-state generation was 10's of thousands every minute. The trick, of course, is to get those thousands into the middle of CS territory or even a fortress city.

--flatline

If the CS didn't know how to counter Zavor, I'm sure they'd figure it out eventually. Having encountered vampires (not sure about werebeasts) they understand the idea of 'immune to attacks' and would use their mobility to keep a distance while evaluating vulnerabilities with specialists.

Soon as they realize wood/iron worked, easier to manage than vamps, really.

Tor wrote:If the CS didn't know how to counter Zavor, I'm sure they'd figure it out eventually. Having encountered vampires (not sure about werebeasts) they understand the idea of 'immune to attacks' and would use their mobility to keep a distance while evaluating vulnerabilities with specialists.

Soon as they realize wood/iron worked, easier to manage than vamps, really.

Even if they know what Zavor are vulnerable to, how many waves of Zavor does it take before the CS is all out of the appropriate ammunition? Once the waves start, how quickly can the CS deploy the appropriate ammunition?

If they run out of ammunition and resort to wooden/iron clubs, then it's just a matter of time...

--flatline

Considering how many of their enemies have that kind of vulnerability, the CS should have that kind of special ammo stocken and ready to distribute, if not actively carried.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Considering how many of their enemies have that kind of vulnerability, the CS should have that kind of special ammo stocken and ready to distribute, if not actively carried.

I totally expect that the CS has stockpiles of wooden and maybe silver and iron ammunition, but I would be surprised if troops routinely carry more than a token amount unless it is required by their current mission.

--flatline

Zavor are slower than humans, much less humans in power armor who can fly, and they're not very smart, so tactics should be able to contain and flank them.

I don't see them as a main threat but rather, a very effective harassment technique, because the minor MD they inflict can whittle stuff down and keep the CS busy repairing stuff, draining resources.

Any MD psionic attack could instantly kill them, I expect Psi-Net would employ Bursters and Zappers to wipe them out if they attacked en-masse. Any physical psionic could use telekinesis to beat them to death with wood or iron implements from a safe distance. I expect CS would conserve silver for werewolves.

Tor wrote:Zavor are slower than humans, much less humans in power armor who can fly, and they're not very smart, so tactics should be able to contain and flank them.

I don't see them as a main threat but rather, a very effective harassment technique, because the minor MD they inflict can whittle stuff down and keep the CS busy repairing stuff, draining resources.

Any MD psionic attack could instantly kill them, I expect Psi-Net would employ Bursters and Zappers to wipe them out if they attacked en-masse. Any physical psionic could use telekinesis to beat them to death with wood or iron implements from a safe distance. I expect CS would conserve silver for werewolves.

The idea isn't that Zavor are hard to deal with (they're not once you figure out what you're up against). The idea is that wave after wave of large numbers of Zavor (1) tie up troops, (2) consume resources to deal with, (3) do lots of infrastructure damage (directly or indirectly...every wooden MD shot that obliterates a Zavor probably does some damage to something behind the Zavor...), and, perhaps most importantly, (4) costs the attacker almost nothing once things are set up properly except, perhaps, PPE

Psi-net will eventually run out of ISP. Soldiers will eventually run out of ammunition. People eventually need to sleep. But a properly designed Zavor breeding program can run indefinitely without pause.

--flatline

Soldiers can sleep in shifts, ISP regenerates too, though with lines/nexi it does regen faster now, will give you that. PPE cost is negligible if you have a magic weapon that returns when thrown so you can safely divide them from a distance without getting hit. Although if a Zavor managed to grab your weapon that could cause some trouble (this is possible after a successful parry if you use N&SS rules, it's a technique available to anyone, you don't even need a HtH, though a Zavor lacks automatic parry I think).

A big logistical problem will be distribution. You'll want a way to transport them because otherwise the Zavor may attack you or your allies. Plus you want them to fan out and not have their source traceable. The CS has trackers who could follow their trail back to the location of a rift, for example (assuming Zavor can even travel through magic-created Rifts... they could have just come through random rifts which are not magic, just raw PPE)

If the Zavor were grouped in any fashion a Burster/Zapper could wade through them pretty easily, just engaging them in melee combat. Their energy auras would be adequate to mow them down, and could probably eat the low MD attacks from them and regenerate it as it came so long as they didn't swarm too heavily (in which case, just add more Psychics to compensate).

Pretty sure guys like Cyber-Knights would also lend a hand with their psi-swords to help protect various farming communities from Zavor.

The CS could also produce their Psionic Weapons Gauntlets (Psyscape 154) and distribute them to psychics of all kinds (plenty of minor) and they can do indefinite electric blasts at 30 feet for no ISP cost (unless this got added later, anyone know?) sucky in most combat situations but easily allowing them to take out the Zavor indefinitely, who have no ranged attack. It's pricy, but worth it, if ISP limits are a problem (no point using the psi-sword unless something was immune to electric or you wanted to utilize WP bonuses)

There is of course no way to CONTROL those Zavor....so yes, as long as you don't mind using a doomsday weapon sure you can make it really inconvenient for the CS....And when/if it falls you now have umpteen million homicidal zavor running around trying to exterminate all life.....swell

eliakon wrote:There is of course no way to CONTROL those Zavor....so yes, as long as you don't mind using a doomsday weapon sure you can make it really inconvenient for the CS....And when/if it falls you now have umpteen million homicidal zavor running around trying to exterminate all life.....swell

That's why you set up your breeding program on an uninhabited planet somewhere (atmosphere, water, etc are totally optional). You can safely abandon your breeding program any time for as long as you want and come back any time.

--flatline

flatline wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Considering how many of their enemies have that kind of vulnerability, the CS should have that kind of special ammo stocken and ready to distribute, if not actively carried.

I totally expect that the CS has stockpiles of wooden and maybe silver and iron ammunition, but I would be surprised if troops routinely carry more than a token amount unless it is required by their current mission.

--flatline

I'd say that if their mission took them into an area where they could expect unknown supernatural forces, they'd be likely to carry at least some specialty ammo.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

flatline wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Considering how many of their enemies have that kind of vulnerability, the CS should have that kind of special ammo stocken and ready to distribute, if not actively carried.

I totally expect that the CS has stockpiles of wooden and maybe silver and iron ammunition, but I would be surprised if troops routinely carry more than a token amount unless it is required by their current mission.

--flatline

I'd say that if their mission took them into an area where they could expect unknown supernatural forces, they'd be likely to carry at least some specialty ammo.

As I said, a token amount.

--flatline

Still wondering: if Zavor are impervious to magic, how do you plan to get them to and back from this dimension without using the Dimensional Portal spell?

Only solution I can think of is using Astral Lords or Dream Makers since psionic interdimensional portals would work on them.

Tor wrote:Still wondering: if Zavor are impervious to magic, how do you plan to get them to and back from this dimension without using the Dimensional Portal spell?

Only solution I can think of is using Astral Lords or Dream Makers since psionic interdimensional portals would work on them.

A rift between dimensions is not, itself, magic. Just because it is created via a magic spell doesn't mean that it's not an effective way to transport Zavor.

To say that Zavor can't go through rifts that were created by magic is as nonsensical as saying that a Zavor can't fall into a hole dug with magic.

--flatline

If I cast an Anti-Magic cloud when a Dimensional Portal is open, does it close? If so, then magic is keeping it open... but then, magic could make a carpet fly and that wouldn't make Zavor unable to ride it...

I could be wrong, but I could be right, we know too little about how the spell and rifts work, I say.

What is your opinion on the Passageway spell from TTGD? I'm sure we could agree that Teleport doesn't work. How about Mystic Portal?

flatline wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

flatline wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Considering how many of their enemies have that kind of vulnerability, the CS should have that kind of special ammo stocken and ready to distribute, if not actively carried.

I totally expect that the CS has stockpiles of wooden and maybe silver and iron ammunition, but I would be surprised if troops routinely carry more than a token amount unless it is required by their current mission.

--flatline

I'd say that if their mission took them into an area where they could expect unknown supernatural forces, they'd be likely to carry at least some specialty ammo.

As I said, a token amount.

--flatline

Why a token? They have enough presence in the SouthWest to know just how dangerous and hard to destroy wild vampires are... so a few stakes, a big watergun, and silver loaded automatic sidearm with several reloads would be order of the day, for everyone, in vamp infested areas.

And something like Zavors would attract other magicians who would shut down the portal pretty fast...

...after letting the CS deal with the problem for a few days. Mostly for intelligence gathering purposes, clearly.

Svartalf wrote:

flatline wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

flatline wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Considering how many of their enemies have that kind of vulnerability, the CS should have that kind of special ammo stocken and ready to distribute, if not actively carried.

I totally expect that the CS has stockpiles of wooden and maybe silver and iron ammunition, but I would be surprised if troops routinely carry more than a token amount unless it is required by their current mission.

--flatline

I'd say that if their mission took them into an area where they could expect unknown supernatural forces, they'd be likely to carry at least some specialty ammo.

As I said, a token amount.

--flatline

Why a token? They have enough presence in the SouthWest to know just how dangerous and hard to destroy wild vampires are... so a few stakes, a big watergun, and silver loaded automatic sidearm with several reloads would be order of the day, for everyone, in vamp infested areas.

Grunt standard equipment, RUE p233:
"Coalition "Dead Boy" body armor, energy rifle and energy sidearm of choice, four extra E-clips for each, two fragmentation grenades, three signal flares, survival knife, utility belt, air filter and gas mask, walkie-talkie, combat boots, canteen, and additional non-energy weapon of choice"

So by your judgment, what's the maximum amount of special ammunition that a CS grunt carries on him as standard equipment? That "non-energy weapon of choice" is the only candidate for special ammunition and no mention is made of carrying spare magazine for it.

Edit: I'll start a Zavor thread since this is moving away from the original topic.

--flatline

flatline wrote:Grunt standard equipment, RUE p233:
"Coalition "Dead Boy" body armor, energy rifle and energy sidearm of choice, four extra E-clips for each, two fragmentation grenades, three signal flares, survival knife, utility belt, air filter and gas mask, walkie-talkie, combat boots, canteen, and additional non-energy weapon of choice"

Same page, CS Grunt Equipment Available On Assignment: "Any weapon types, extra ammunition[...]", provided as needed.

Tinker Dragoon wrote:

flatline wrote:Grunt standard equipment, RUE p233:
"Coalition "Dead Boy" body armor, energy rifle and energy sidearm of choice, four extra E-clips for each, two fragmentation grenades, three signal flares, survival knife, utility belt, air filter and gas mask, walkie-talkie, combat boots, canteen, and additional non-energy weapon of choice"

Same page, CS Grunt Equipment Available On Assignment: "Any weapon types, extra ammunition[...]", provided as needed.

But if it's always provided, then it would be listed as standard equipment. That is, in fact, my point.

--flatline

Nobody said it was always provided, just that when it is available, troops should be able to stock up on as much as they need.

Tinker Dragoon wrote:Nobody said it was always provided, just that when it is available, troops should be able to stock up on as much as they need.

So who then determines how much the troops "need"?

Tinker Dragoon wrote:Nobody said it was always provided, just that when it is available, troops should be able to stock up on as much as they need.

There's a word for keeping equipment that wasn't used on the mission that it was provided for: theft.

Unless you don't think the CS military has a problem with that...

--flatline

I would think, from the descriptions here that the gear sets are like in the US Army.
You have a basic issue of a whole bunch of stuff that you get, sign for and keep. (though ammunition and grenades are usually only in war zones but....). You ALSO can get all sorts of stuff depending on a specific job, unit, commander, mission, policy, some higher ups bright idea, testing, or what ever other reason.
PLUS there is the 'stuff' that just...accumulates
So while their basic draw may not include a 9mm and some aluminum bullets, they could certainly have some since their last captain had a phobia of Xamerian wombats, who are deathly allergic to aluminum. And then there is the neural/vibro knives that the 18th infantry is testing, oh, and those Wilks laser rounds from that test, after they arrested the lead engineer no one really wants to mention them, but they don't want to dispose of them either, so they sit around in your footlocker, and this post has issues with werewolves so everyone has to carry a 4 magazines of silver rounds and......

also where it says "sidearm of choice" then later "4 e-clips for each", if you take a slug thrower as your sidearm, they'd give you 4 magazines of ammuntion. Then you could take additional equipment as well, and it's a safe assumption at least 4 mags is standard for it.

Who determines who gets what? Requisitions and Supply does. Talk to your local quartermaster and be on their good side. In areas where supernatural threats are identified by CS Intellignence, the grunt's standard gear would have to be modified apporpriately to deal with the threats in the area. The more experienced the grunt, the more prepared they'll be.

Even if not issued, if horror stories about vamps have spread far enough, a lot would probably opt to spend their salaries on such weapons.

Although they might just rely on a cross.