Our Fencing Cyberknight!

[Giant2005]

Yes it does.

[dragonfett]

From everyone I have ever talked to it does.

[say652]

Yessir. Also..... if you get supernatural strength some how thats added in also.

[rat_bastard]

In splicers, a game published after RUE, it is clarified to be a +md or SDC damage, depending on the weapon used.

[random_username]

For More Damage: (1) Be a Cyber-Knight Master Psychic; (2) add in a Amaki TW Psi-Blade (W9:South America 2), and (3) finally special training from Psyscape #5 selecting Psi-Sword (W12:Psyscape).

[dragonfett]

Please make note that there has been some debate over this last method mentioned, mostly focusing on the last aspect (the Psyscape training).

[Alrik Vas]

Yeah, SN PS from the spell on a cyber knight with fencing. i'll take my 6d6+ damage at level 1, thanks.

[Giant2005]

Supernatural P.S. does not add to Psi-Sword damage.

[Dakchronos]

Supernatural P.S. does not add to Psi-Sword damage.

I'm with this guy, Psi-sword is an energy blade and has no mass. the fencing skill is more of a GMs call.

[say652]

Pfft. I disagree but, I guess conversion rules and all.
Every game I have ever seen snps+psi sword tge damage adds.
But hey me and only every person I ever gamed with agrees.
Reasoning. Psi swords are an indestructible physical manifestion. Swing that puppy dumb friggin hard (supernatural strength) its gonna hit harder.

#StopNerfinYo

[Giant2005]

Pfft. I disagree but, I guess conversion rules and all.
Every game I have ever seen snps+psi sword tge damage adds.
But hey me and only every person I ever gamed with agrees.
Reasoning. Psi swords are an indestructible physical manifestion. Swing that puppy dumb friggin hard (supernatural strength) its gonna hit harder.

#StopNerfinYo

Supernatural Strength doesn't even stack with a purely physical weapon like a Vibro-Blade.

[Giant2005]

Reference of page number for the specialized training in psyscape please...thanks

Page 29.

[say652]

In my dimension of HEROES Unlimited they do.
No psi specialization for double damge though.

Page 313. Yea I got page numbers also. Lol.

[Giant2005]

In my dimension of HEROES Unlimited they do.
No psi specialization for double damge though.

Page 313. Yea I got page numbers also. Lol.

This is the Rifts forum.

Supernatural Damage and Hand Weapons: When wielding a hand weapon, such as swords, clubs and knives, supernatural beings inflict either the weapon damage plus P.S. damage bonus (in S.D.C), or their own P.S. damage as per Supernatural Strength, whichever is greater.

[Alrik Vas]

Supernatural P.S. does not add to Psi-Sword damage.

Absolutely correct. Though aside a ruling, I see no reason it shouldn't. SN PS isn't always about physical matters.

[say652]

So where as the option to do double damage is there, strength bonus is not added. Interesting. So unless a Magic weapin is being used snps isnt added. Explains qhy a half ton warhammer only adds 2D6 to snps damage.

Out of curiosity may I ask why??

[guardiandashi]

So where as the option to do double damage is there, strength bonus is not added. Interesting. So unless a Magic weapin is being used snps isnt added. Explains qhy a half ton warhammer only adds 2D6 to snps damage.

Out of curiosity may I ask why??

"because" lol game balance or something

[Hotrod]

Supernatural P.S. does not add to Psi-Sword damage.

Absolutely correct. Though aside a ruling, I see no reason it shouldn't. SN PS isn't always about physical matters.

I propose a thought experiment where one of two conditions are applied. Either supernatural strength matters (A) or it doesn't make any difference (B) for psi-sword damage. Feel free to re-interpret as you see fit.

SCENARIO 1: A psi-sword is thrust at a foe in a very tough, but not invincible, MDC armor. It does insufficient damage to destroy the object. If the blade cannot pass through the object, then there are two possibilities I see:
A. The toughness of the armor provides some kind of pushback against the cutting ability of the psi-sword. The sword itself is invincible, so extra strength can be applied to help jam it through the armor, thus doing more damage.
B. The act of inflicting damage depletes the blade itself every time it strikes, so that it seems to thrust through from the outside, when it has not. You can thrust your sword into your opponent up to the hilt, but no blade will appear on the far side. Also, strength is immaterial; each strike will do as much as the sword does.

SCENARIO 2: Someone chops at a cyber-knight with a vibro-sword. The cyber-knight parries.
A. The knight can use his psi-sword to knock the vibro-sword aside, since his strength is transferred through the weapon.
B. Since no strength is transferred through the weapon, the vibro-sword cannot be deflected with the psi-sword.

Scenario 3: Two cyber-knights of equal psi-sword damage attack identical doors. One is a demigod with extra strength (supernatural strength of 66). The other is a decrepit human with a degenerative muscle disease who can barely lift his arms (normal strength of 1). Both are trying to shop through identical chunks of MDC steel. The demigod of strength winds up and brings his psi-sword crashing down with all his might. The disease-wracked human barely manages to twitch his hand up and down, bringing his psi-sword down an inch or so with a slow, awkward stroke.
A. The demigod of strength does more damage.
B. Both do exactly the same

I favor approach A, as it seems the easiest to visualize in my mind's eye.

[say652]

But this is rifts. In heroes unlimited you get the bonus. In Rifts you don't, because of game balance. Bwahahaha. Gotcha.

I house ruled psi sword as a physical object, because it interacts with the physical realm as a solid object. And being "supernatural" and indestructible like a magic weapon I allow supernatural strength to add damage.

But I also play a high power level game. If you think its equal and mystical thats cool man. Just your path aint my path even though we are going the same place.

[Tor]

It only adds MD if he is trained in Splicers, and even then the skill may only apply in that dimension. They have unique skills regarding enhancing MD weapons.

As later printings of the fencing skill in MD settings (RUE, Robotech) after Splicers do not enhance MD attacks, we can only conclude this to be a unique dimensional anomaly.

Sort of like how in most circumstances, PS bonuses do not apply to punches, but they do if you're Thor and wearing a cool belt.

In other settings, the fencing skill adds normal damage (SDC or HP) and not 'mega' since it does not specify that.

This means that for the most part it will not be helpful.

There are some scarce situations where it might be, though. For example, if you were fighting vampires, I think it would apply to harming their HP.

In splicers, a game published after RUE, it is clarified to be a +md or SDC damage, depending on the weapon used.

Wrong, Splicers was published October 2004, RUE was published August 2005.

Yessir. Also..... if you get supernatural strength some how thats added in also.

No, you don't, FAQ has clarified that they are energy weapons which do not benefit from strength-related bonuses.

Fencing is only a candidate (for SDC damage) since it may plausibly come from skill (like damage bonuses on a HtH table, which might plausibly also qualify)

special training from Psyscape #5 selecting Psi-Sword (W12:Psyscape).

I recall that only applying to super psionic powers. It would apply to the normal psi-sword power that Mind Melters can select, but the Cyber-Knight power does not necessarily fall under that category too, nor may the Amaki version.

Psi-sword is an energy blade and has no mass. the fencing skill is more of a GMs call.

Although in spite of this, some Windians manage to use it as a climbing tool.

Ignoring canon, I think it's easier to treat psi-weapons as physical in nature, since the impression is given they can parry other MD weapons, and presumably you couldn't do that unless it had some physical portion, plus it explains the Windian strangeness.

If we weigh'd the one 'no stacking, energy' FAQ versus the many pictures of psi-weapons being used in books, probably in a physical manner, I would say the art has some weight.

Every game I have ever seen snps+psi sword tge damage adds.

Could you give some book/page examples?

Psi swords are an indestructible physical manifestion.

Their physicality is argued. Ever wonder why they can parry energy blasts but not bullets? Also, seeing as how Psi-Nullifiers can negate them, indestructibility is a bit subjective here.

Supernatural Strength doesn't even stack with a purely physical weapon like a Vibro-Blade.

It does in Heroes Unlimited and Nightbane Rifts is... a bit inconsistent about this issue sometimes. Sometimes it follows NB/HU stacking, sometimes it follows PF-replacing.

unless a Magic weapin is being used snps isnt added.

I don't think Xiticix resin weapons are all magic.

[Slight001]

You guys might eant to check out NG2's PA section for melee weapons and take note of the regular references to strength already being added in.

[say652]

No Rifts specifically has wonky rules on damage.
My punch does 6D6 md but if i use a vibro sword I deal 2D6 md or use a psi sword I deal 3D6 md????

But in Heroes Unlimited I can add my bonuses because its sdc???? In this mdc craze y'all ruined the game. Imho.

[flatline]

No Rifts specifically has wonky rules on damage.
My punch does 6D6 md but if i use a vibro sword I deal 2D6 md or use a psi sword I deal 3D6 md????

But in Heroes Unlimited I can add my bonuses because its sdc???? In this mdc craze y'all ruined the game. Imho.

MDC has done more to wreck the setting than any other mechanic that I can think of. And because of the amount of published material, it takes a fair amount of work to fix things with house rules.

--flatline

[guardiandashi]

No Rifts specifically has wonky rules on damage.
My punch does 6D6 md but if i use a vibro sword I deal 2D6 md or use a psi sword I deal 3D6 md????

But in Heroes Unlimited I can add my bonuses because its sdc???? In this mdc craze y'all ruined the game. Imho.

MDC has done more to wreck the setting than any other mechanic that I can think of. And because of the amount of published material, it takes a fair amount of work to fix things with house rules.

--flatline

yes damage is wonky, by the book, or RAW however hand to hand and, direct strength related attacks could be resolved in many cases by a simple "house rule" of saying everything adds, but you need to define what specifically counts as direct strength related.

my "rule of thumb" is:
melee attacks are considered direct strength/ agility (pp) always
ranged attacks throwing and mechanical advantage weapons ONLY count if manufactured/set for the strength needed.
guns and similar NEVER get str bonuses because they have their own way of setting it (effectively)

now with mechanical advantage weapons bow, xbow, spear thrower etc. huge strength may or may not be an actual advantage. If I have a recurve bow made with an 80-200 lb draw and have a 2000lb applicable strength, I can easily overdraw and break the bow if my arms are long enough, on the other hand if its designed for a 2000 lb draw, if you don't have sufficient str you aren't going to move the string.

crossbows are similar but slightly different. they are usually made with a "high" strength draw setting that you use some kind of mechanical advantage system to draw, such as a "goats foot" winch, or similar, in that case having a 1000 lb draw crossbow having a 2000 lb strength, just means you can draw it like its a "light crossbow" instead of having to use the "crank" like a "normal" person would have to.

[say652]

Even though I haven't played yet... I could see a house rule of add weapon damage to basic melee maneuver. IE... If your character does 6d6 MDC. with his fist on a basic punch and he comes across a magical MDC sword that does only 2d6 on a basic strike. When he wields it.. It does 8d6.

Now if he attempted to use an SDC axe I might still give a bonus or half bonus but he shatters the weapon upon impact.

Thats called weapon breakage. And um its covered right in the power description. O wait this is rifts so rules that make sense from other settings dont apply. Lol :/

[eliakon]

Even though I haven't played yet... I could see a house rule of add weapon damage to basic melee maneuver. IE... If your character does 6d6 MDC. with his fist on a basic punch and he comes across a magical MDC sword that does only 2d6 on a basic strike. When he wields it.. It does 8d6.

Now if he attempted to use an SDC axe I might still give a bonus or half bonus but he shatters the weapon upon impact.

Thats called weapon breakage. And um its covered right in the power description. O wait this is rifts so rules that make sense from other settings dont apply. Lol :/

They can apply, they just are not canon. THAT said, I do believe that there is a discussion about weapons breaking in one of the rifts books. But I am not going to sit down and read all 100 or so of them to find it.

[say652]

I love the setting a lot I just run it different I guess. I run a post apocalyptic north america, with the occ, rcc, pcc, lsd, bdsm, huh???, lol, bbq, bbw well you get the idea BUT dont use any books weapons or armor.
Because I run it sdc just like a normal heroes unlimited game. It turns the old farm truck that is Rifts into a F-22 of awesome sauce with rules and rulings that make sense. Omg.

[Alrik Vas]

I allow PS damage bonus, plus SN PS punch damage, on top of weapon damage. There have been exactly 0 balance issues and the games I play in and run aren't really considered "high powered."

A human with a 20 PS and fencing, dealing 3d6+5 with a vibro-sword in now way breaks the game. A godling dealing 2d6x10+45 doesn't either, because its a bloody godling. If he didn't rip infantry in a single shot, I'd feel bad for him.

[say652]

I consider changing things from the "rules" to be high powered.
Example.
Enviromental Body Armor. Sdc-180 Ar-16

Flying power Armor. Sdc-500 Ar-15 robotic.

[wyrmraker]

I never liked how Armor Rating was set up in modern/post-modern settings for non-natural armor. If I am wearing full Class 4 armor, some mook getting a lucky shot with a handgun isn't going to bypass that stuff. Neither will a Called Shot at a 'weak point'.

Penetration Value is the only number that really counts for that.

[say652]

Spend the credits on a light exo suit for a robotic ar.

[Incriptus]

Although the topic kind of got lost there for a moment (I guess there is a reason why there have been dozens of threads on the add PS to MD weapons damage) I'm more than content to allow for skill based damage bonuses such as fencing to stack.

P.S. I always allow P.S. damage bonuses to stack with melee weapons regardless of the source. Gargoyles and Xiticix both figured out how to stack there unarmed damage with their weapon damage, so did everyone else. I take it even further than most, there is a reason why melee weapons exist as predominantly as they do in my Rifts Earth.

[rat_bastard]

Supernatural P.S. does not add to Psi-Sword damage.

I'm with this guy, Psi-sword is an energy blade and has no mass. the fencing skill is more of a GMs call.

Nothing in the text backs either interpretation, maybe it has no more mass than a flash light beam, maybe it does. GM's call.

[say652]

I allow it but only for robotic or supernatural strength. Unless a phase sword is being used then I'm like ok sure, mainly because the text is confusing.

Vibro weapons add in md strength damage.
Psi sword adds in md strength damage.
Magic weapons do also. But these are house rules not canon. Dragons add their supernatural strength to their claw attecks also, for a bite add in half ps damage.

[Tor]

No Rifts specifically has wonky rules on damage. My punch does 6D6 md but if i use a vibro sword I deal 2D6 md or use a psi sword I deal 3D6 md????

Only sometimes, there are many instances indicating we should stack the MD from SNPS with that of melee weapons.

in Heroes Unlimited I can add my bonuses because its sdc???? In this mdc craze y'all ruined the game. Imho.

I wouldn't blame MDC, PF is SDC and has the same 'no stacking' issue.

Cool idea for rule: if you have a weapon kata, you can add your HtH punch damage to your weapon. Otherwise, greatest of 2. Ninjas ftw. Or because: may as well have weapon katas do SOMETHING special in Rifts as opposed to "use this to avoid a N&SS-exclusive handicap"

Penetration Value is the only number that really counts for that.

Can anyone point out where PV rules are actually explained in any book? I've occasionally seen them listed for ammunition types but don't remember where the numbers' meaning was explained.

I always liked the idea of 'damage absorb'.

Absorb could also be type-specific. A cloth armor I can see protecting against a slashing attack but not really doing anything against a blunt one.

Supernatural P.S. does not add to Psi-Sword damage.

I'm with this guy, Psi-sword is an energy blade and has no mass. the fencing skill is more of a GMs call.

Nothing in the text backs either interpretation, maybe it has no more mass than a flash light beam, maybe it does. GM's call.

Text has supported both, that's why it's confusing. Phys-mass supported by 'I use it as an ice pick' and no-mass supported by 'don't add SNPS'

[Giant2005]

My punch does 6D6 md but if i use a vibro sword I deal 2D6 md or use a psi sword I deal 3D6 md????

Only if you were pulling your punch or something. Otherwise you would be dealing 6D6 M.D.

[Nightmask]

My punch does 6D6 md but if i use a vibro sword I deal 2D6 md or use a psi sword I deal 3D6 md????

Only if you were pulling your punch or something. Otherwise you would be dealing 6D6 M.D.

Even though using the Vibro-Sword you should be doing 8d6 MD.

[dragonfett]

Penetration Value is the only number that really counts for that.

Can anyone point out where PV rules are actually explained in any book? I've occasionally seen them listed for ammunition types but don't remember where the numbers' meaning was explained.

I always liked the idea of 'damage absorb'.

Absorb could also be type-specific. A cloth armor I can see protecting against a slashing attack but not really doing anything against a blunt one.

I know for a fact that it is in Compendium of Contemporary Weapons, page 9.

[dreicunan]

The skill says +1d6 to damage with a sword or a knife. The most logical interpretation of that is that a sword or knife attack adds a d6 of sdc if the weapon inflicts sdc or MD if the weapon inflicts MD. So if you attack with a silver gladius, you get +1d6 sdc damage. If you attack with a vibrosword, you get +1d6 MD. If you attack with a psisword, you get +1d6 MD. If you attack with a psi-tomahawk, you don't get the bonus as your psi-weapon is not in the form of a sword or knife.

[flatline]

Let's assume you're using a rotary tool (aka dremel) with a cutting disc to cut something. Your excess strength will not make it cut any faster.

Why should a vibro blade be any different?

--flatline

[say652]

Does also. Chainsaw does also. Most things a lil muscle helps.

[Tor]

My punch does 6D6 md but if i use a vibro sword I deal 2D6 md or use a psi sword I deal 3D6 md????

Only if you were pulling your punch or something. Otherwise you would be dealing 6D6 M.D.

Even though using the Vibro-Sword you should be doing 8d6 MD.

Depends on what ruleset one is using.

In normal rules, people never used to add their punch damage to their weapons, even though that would've been interesting. All that was added was the PS attribute bonus.

I don't know where the idea of stacking first came... was present in Nightbane/HU but Rifts might've already had a reference to it somewhere... anyone recall which world book began doing that?

I know that Cosmo-Knights added their punch damage to cosmic weapons when in melee (I got the impression they didn't add it when throwing though) so it must've been pretty early.

If we look to the previous dimension book, Apoks have SNPS yet there's nothing in the Confessor's stats mentioning a reminder to add his punch MD to his weapon MD so maybe PW introduced it?

Only WB I distinctly remember is Xiticix Invasion but there could've been something prior to this...

The most logical interpretation of that is that a sword or knife attack adds a d6 of sdc if the weapon inflicts sdc or MD if the weapon inflicts MD.

Why's this the most logical?

Sap gloves add 2 damage to punches. Am I to believe that if a Borg or Juicer is doing a d6 MD power-punch that a sap glove will increase the max from 6 to 8?

[Incriptus]

Sap gloves add 2 damage to punches. Am I to believe that if a Borg or Juicer is doing a d6 MD power-punch that a sap glove will increase the max from 6 to 8?

This is where the bulk of the confusion even internally comes in. The rules are written from the perspective of normal people. I declare (by the power vested in me by nobody) that the intention was that a human who added 6 to his punch damage was told he didn't add his strength to his magic sword because it was insignifigant. Since doing 2D6 + .06 MD would be stupid. So the rule read from the human perspective that you don't add your strength bonus to MD attacks. This caused the rules to have a stroke. Rules As Written types read "you don't" as nobody does.

Later on we wanted to give supernatural monsters melee weapons, ie gargoyles and xiticix, so we let them add their SN strength punch damage to there weapons damage. As it would be stupid to have weapons if they didn't increase your damage.

Of course the same Rules As Written types still stick to the idea that the magic sword doesn't add strength while the gargoyle sword does because that's the literally reading of the rules.

As for your example a sap glove adds 2 damage but only in the context it was originally designed for, ie a normal human like you or I, punching someone like a normal human does. The juicers power punch now does 1D6 + .02 MD, but that's stupid so no you don't add that damage.

Without context assume that the rules apply to normal humans doing normal things, when applied to other contexts use common sense ... or wing it.

[Tor]

Well, basically you do add strength/sap/fencing damage, but it remains damage, doesn't turn mega, except in Splicers, a setting of strangeness.

So if I have a PS of 110 (+95 damage) and fencing, it could be worth it to roll that d6 for fencing, because 1/3 of the time you'll get 5 or 6, enough to total 100+ with your PS attribute, and add a point of mega-damage to your vibro-blade.

[Alrik Vas]

I don't have an issue with damage being added. If a situation comes up, i'll rule with consistency and logic for the purpose of balancing the game I'm running. I just don't see the issue with allowing this kind of damage for melee. It really doesn't come up that much.

Sure, i've had some pretty tough scrapes in close quarters playing games (just read the insanity in my sig), but most games were pretty much "hide, shoot, reload, hide again" when it came to combat. Sometimes "escape" was also necessary. Melee only came up when an enemy forced it, or it was required.

Why not let people deal good damage, instead of rubbish damage?

[say652]

PowerSurge doesn't have a prowl skill. And his only wp is wp:knife.

Hiding?? How are you supposed to charge the enemy if they can't see you.

[Alrik Vas]

Yeah, about that...you charge, let your few thousand MDC soak up the fire and I'll bring the house down while they're dealing with you.

[Tor]

Why not let people deal good damage, instead of rubbish damage?

It creates some setting issues. Cyber-Knight's damage was never 'rubbish', even at first level they could equal a mundane vibro-blade and surpassed it at later levels.

None of the cyber-knight NPCs have any advanced damage either. If fencing were actually effective enough to double the damage a first/second CK could inflict, we would probably see it as an OCC skill for them.

[kaid]

I have never had a problem letting fencing work with MDC weapons even things like psi swords. It is not wielding the weapon harder it is wielding it more skillfully. You are picking and hitting your targets better and so the damage is higher. They have to devote a skill for it and in the grand scheme of things an extra 1d6 is not OP at all especially for something they have to close to melee range to utilize.

[say652]

Hehe... I look at the glitterboy inflicting insane amounts of damage with every shot, and people are talking about balancing damage output..it's pretty humorous actually.

I'm suprised this topic is still raging actually.

I know right.