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What is up with this book? It was mentioned right at the end of megaverse in flames. Apparently it is going to be a suppliant to the minion war and collation war machine.

Can anyone shed any light on the book development? I don't think anything has even been mentioned about it in the newsletter or the forum.

I honestly had only heard the title a couple of times with nothing else before GenCon.. While there I met the artist who did the cover and got a good look at said image.. all I can say is WOW..

I imagine from reading the intro pages to MiF that with the Coalition caught off-guard by the invasion, it will be about the best part of any heroic journey; the mind-blowing struggle against immeasurable odds and the quick thinking development of new tactics and procedures for dealing with this number of class 3, 4 and 5 supernatural menaces..

kozmonaut wrote:What is up with this book? It was mentioned right at the end of megaverse in flames. Apparently it is going to be a suppliant to the minion war and collation war machine.

Can anyone shed any light on the book development? I don't think anything has even been mentioned about it in the newsletter or the forum.

The 2012 Catalog of Palladium Books has this blurb about it, on page 44 right underneath the section on Rifts: Antarctica.

Rifts® Sourcebook:
The Coalition States™: Heroes of Humanity™
The Coalition States and their military machine are heroes to some and despised villains to others. In the wake of the demon swarms and events unleashed in Megaverse® in Flames, it is the Coalition Army taking the lead to send demons and supernatural horrors back to the pits of Hell.

• New Coalition power armor and robots.
• New insight about their motives, goals and tactics.
• Coalition operations against the demon plagues.
• Coalition Army: good, evil or what?
• Written by Kevin Siembieda. Coming 2013.
• Final size, price and release date not yet known.

If all were going to get is a stronger more powerful CS. With no change in attitude or philosophy. While also being protected by plot armor because of fan popularity and being a favorite of Kevin. I'm not too interested.

If the little blurb in Megaverse in Flames is any indication then I think that the CS will get a story line driven boost. Not that they need it, 1.6 million operational and active old style SAMAS after all... But Megaverse in Flames indicates that another million new people join the CS army after Prosek's speech and several retired individuals join back up.

SAMAS reference WB 11: Coalition War Campaign, p113, left column, 2nd paragraph under Old-Style "Death's Head" SAMAS.

Yes, I know, this is a dead horse but I always did enjoy beating it. CS are like Pringles, kill all you want, they will just write more into the story.

Sureshot wrote:If all were going to get is a stronger more powerful CS. With no change in attitude or philosophy. While also being protected by plot armor because of fan popularity and being a favorite of Kevin. I'm not too interested.

I don't think so much stronger as much as we are likely to see designs along the lines of NG2 with the CS taking some pages from the northern gun and making some dedicated anti supernatural weapon platforms. Most of the CS designs are primarily anti tech type all purpose type models. Probably what we will see is some things like the NG gun wolf and some of the NG power armor that is very specifically designed with certain types of opponents in mind.

I think doing something like this would show why the CS is as good as the writing says. They should have had more units like this in CWC. The hellraiser and DB (GB) Killer aren't enough.

Sureshot wrote:If all were going to get is a stronger more powerful CS. With no change in attitude or philosophy. While also being protected by plot armor because of fan popularity and being a favorite of Kevin. I'm not too interested.

Hasn't been a problem in the game so far, so I don't think it'll start now.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Hasn't been a problem in the game so far, so I don't think it'll start now.

I'm assuming you never read SOT then. Where it pretty much was a one sided victory by the CS. All because the CS is popular IMO .

Sureshot wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Hasn't been a problem in the game so far, so I don't think it'll start now.

I'm assuming you never read SOT then. Where it pretty much was a one sided victory by the CS. All because the CS is popular IMO .

Was the only person who looked at the raw numbers of the CS and though the whole SOT was too drawn out? War is a numbers game, if you out number the opponent by 10 or 15 to one, you win. It should have been... "CS wake in the morning and destroy Tolkeen. They take the afternoon off as a reward."

The CS has been built up to the point where there isn't any force in North American that could oppose them. They just have too many bodies setup for combat to be opposed.

Of course, all the numbers tossed out for the CS forces make me laugh mainly due to the lack of logistics, sustainability resource wise, and overall lack of comprehension on what it would take to manage and lead a force that large. But that is a whole other conversation.

Sureshot wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Hasn't been a problem in the game so far, so I don't think it'll start now.

I'm assuming you never read SOT then. Where it pretty much was a one sided victory by the CS. All because the CS is popular IMO .

Or because every power that was, said the CS was many orders of magnitude stronger than Tolkeen, and even 'in universe' the other magic nations told Tolkeen straight up 'Even with all of us combined, we'd still lose the war, it'd drag out longer but the CS would still win"

In all honesty the war between the CS and tolkeen lasted as long as it did, with the back and forth seesawing, to --sell more books--. I don't think that's a fault. Palladium is an RPG book company. that's their job. Still, the fight was drug out much longer than it should have been. It was the "Hand of god" That stopped Tolkeen from dieing in the flight times of the CS nukes over to Tolkeen.

This has been debated at great great length here in the forums. I just get a little irked when I see stuff like "The cs just won because they're popular" vs the literal Decades of books we have that have said from the very start, that the CS would win that fight.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:

Sureshot wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Hasn't been a problem in the game so far, so I don't think it'll start now.

I'm assuming you never read SOT then. Where it pretty much was a one sided victory by the CS. All because the CS is popular IMO .

Or because every power that was, said the CS was many orders of magnitude stronger than Tolkeen, and even 'in universe' the other magic nations told Tolkeen straight up 'Even with all of us combined, we'd still lose the war, it'd drag out longer but the CS would still win"

In all honesty the war between the CS and tolkeen lasted as long as it did, with the back and forth seesawing, to --sell more books--. I don't think that's a fault. Palladium is an RPG book company. that's their job. Still, the fight was drug out much longer than it should have been. It was the "Hand of god" That stopped Tolkeen from dieing in the flight times of the CS nukes over to Tolkeen.

This has been debated at great great length here in the forums. I just get a little irked when I see stuff like "The cs just won because they're popular" vs the literal Decades of books we have that have said from the very start, that the CS would win that fight.

Pretty much.
The CS victory over Tolkeen was clear from day one.

I never said that the CS would not beat Tolkien . It was how poorly it was handled. A very one sided fight. One side gets a bloody nose. The other sees their kingdom burned to the ground. I just don't want to see another such victory in HOH. With the CS stronger and more powerful. They have to take some major losses. If it's another bloody nose then with all due respect it's because they are popular.

Sureshot wrote:I never said that the CS would not beat Tolkien . It was how poorly it was handled.

I agree that it was handled poorly.
Both sides got a lot of handwaving and gratuitous buffing up.
Both sides were written very poorly as far as strategy and tactics.

A very one sided fight. One side gets a bloody nose. The other sees their kingdom burned to the ground.

That's how it always was.
It was supposed to be a very one-sided fight.
The very first time we ever heart of Tolkeen was Rifts 139:
The Coalition's immediate opposition will be the city of Tolkeen... Without question, Tolkeen is the largest and most powerful city in the area...Despite this, I fear Tolkeen has no hope for survival against an all-out siege by the CS.

The real opposition that awaits the Coalition is the alien insect race known as the Xiticix.

Right there, the first time we hear of Tolkeen, we're told that they're powerful for that area, but that they have no hope of survival against the CS.
Tolkeen, in spite of their relative power, is just a warm-up for the CS's real challenge, the Xitixix.

I just don't want to see another such victory in HOH. With the CS stronger and more powerful. They have to take some major losses. If it's another bloody nose then with all due respect it's because they are popular.

No, it's because they were set up as THE main bad-guy since day one.
They're the biggest power in North America other than the Xiticix.
They've got the best (overall) native tech in North America.
They've got the most troops.
They've got among the best training.
They've got more SAMAS than Tolkeen's entire population.

With all the "CS are basically the Nazis" build-up and analogies in the books, it's NOT any kind of favoritism or popularity contest when they roll right over their first minor opposition without any real problem.
Same with the second.
I think it's pretty clear-and always has been clear-that in order to take down the CS, you'd need a number of Allied Forces to gang up on them.

If the Death Star is blown up by Alderan's defenses, what the hell are Luke and Lei going to do for the rest of the movie?

I see your point KC. Though the CS losing a territory would not be the end of them IMO. At the feet least I hope the enemies the CS face will be written and portrayed better. Not "I'm evil and power hungry therefore that makes me arrogant and dumb" portrayal that Tolkien as a whole was given. If the CS just keeps getting bigger, better and stronger what's to stop them from conquering the whole of North America. Nothing IMO. I also wish there was less new toys and just more refining if existing technology. Not new ones.

Sureshot wrote:I see your point KC.

Though the CS losing a territory would not be the end of them IMO.

Well, they lost Quebec already, but yeah.
And I think it's coming at some point. The main issue is that Palladium takes a long, long, long, long time to tell the tale of Rifts Earth.

At the feet least I hope the enemies the CS face will be written and portrayed better. Not "I'm evil and power hungry therefore that makes me arrogant and dumb" portrayal that Tolkien as a whole was given.

Agreed.
Likewise, I hope that the CS will be written better. They built up an army of robots with variable-frequency lasers, declared war on the ONLY enemy where VF lasers matter, then sent pretty much all their skelebots off in the opposite direction, to battle mages.
Just for example.

If the CS just keeps getting bigger, better and stronger what's to stop them from conquering the whole of North America. Nothing IMO.

The same things that were laid out in the RMB:
-The Xiticix
-The Vampires
-The Magic Zone

I also wish there was less new toys and just more refining if existing technology. Not new ones.

I hear ya.
I'd also love to see more tech that is useful, but not really powerful. Stuff like the Sonic Flea Collar. Things that flesh out the world, and that have potential in-game use beyond "I inflict x MD."

FatherMorpheus wrote:

Sureshot wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Hasn't been a problem in the game so far, so I don't think it'll start now.

I'm assuming you never read SOT then. Where it pretty much was a one sided victory by the CS. All because the CS is popular IMO .

Was the only person who looked at the raw numbers of the CS and though the whole SOT was too drawn out? War is a numbers game, if you out number the opponent by 10 or 15 to one, you win. It should have been... "CS wake in the morning and destroy Tolkeen. They take the afternoon off as a reward."

The CS has been built up to the point where there isn't any force in North American that could oppose them. They just have too many bodies setup for combat to be opposed.

Of course, all the numbers tossed out for the CS forces make me laugh mainly due to the lack of logistics, sustainability resource wise, and overall lack of comprehension on what it would take to manage and lead a force that large. But that is a whole other conversation.

This was more of my opinion as well. The fact tolkeen held out as long as they did was the part that baffled me. At the start of the conflict the numbers given the three city states that made up tolkeen did not equal the population of even one of the smaller CS fortress cities. Even with the best tactics and most nefarious use of magic they still would have lost just to running out of warm bodies.

I have a question....
How the heck does anyone play a major campaign that doesn't have all the books/parts of it written yet?

I mean for me a campaign is something you do over the summer, not over a decade. It's been like 7 or so years since this campaign started and is still yet to get all the books out for it.

As the books come out, wouldn't major ret-conning be required to make it mesh with the new material??

Maybe when they get them all out i might consider checking it out...until then.

MurderCityDisciple wrote:I have a question....
How the heck does anyone play a major campaign that doesn't have all the books/parts of it written yet?

I mean for me a campaign is something you do over the summer, not over a decade. It's been like 7 or so years since this campaign started and is still yet to get all the books out for it.

As the books come out, wouldn't major ret-conning be required to make it mesh with the new material??

Maybe when they get them all out i might consider checking it out...until then.

Just because a book says something has happened in a certain area doesn't mean your game is WRONG. If new fluff contradicts your story ignore the new fluff.

Same thing if you simply don't own the books.

BuzzardB wrote:

MurderCityDisciple wrote:I have a question....
How the heck does anyone play a major campaign that doesn't have all the books/parts of it written yet?

I mean for me a campaign is something you do over the summer, not over a decade. It's been like 7 or so years since this campaign started and is still yet to get all the books out for it.

As the books come out, wouldn't major ret-conning be required to make it mesh with the new material??

Maybe when they get them all out i might consider checking it out...until then.

Just because a book says something has happened in a certain area doesn't mean your game is WRONG. If new fluff contradicts your story ignore the new fluff.

Same thing if you simply don't own the books.

If it's part of the overall story arc, then you really can't just blow off major plot points and head off on your own. Buying any other books would just be kind of a waste. If you go your own way, then it really isn't 'that' campaign anymore.

It'd be kind of like making up your own version of Star Wars after only seeing New Hope and Empire Strikes Back and then trying to ret-con it after you do see Return of the Jedi. It'd be impossible or a mess.

I've played in a lot of campaigns (D&D Giants and Drow campaigns & Call of Cthulhu's Masks of Nyarlathotep) and if A,B and C don't line up, it's a bust. Of course all of those campaigns are put out in one book or within the same year, not stretched out over 7.

I guess if you want to play the MiF you have to fudge and fiddle to make it work or just wait.

Are the books just fluff then? Flavor text? New toys?
Or is it plot and storyline?

I'm sure a lot of it is overall story. The players aren't actively being game changers to that story. They may win battles, but the war was already decided, and apparently the CS are the winners.

But from what I have heard on Heroes of Humanity (Kevin's Interview), it hasn't even been written yet. I'm sure Carl can whip it out in short time, it will still go through the Palladium vortex of editing, and the final release date is unknown. Now I could be wrong that it hasn't been written, and I hope I am. Out of all the MiF series of books, this new one proposed is the only one that has peaked my interest.

MurderCityDisciple wrote:If it's part of the overall story arc, then you really can't just blow off major plot points and head off on your own.

Of coarse you can, you can do whatever you want in your game.

I know a lot of people on these forums don't like the RUE fluff and the Coalition War Campaign fluff and don't use it, doesn't invalidate their games one bit.

When our G.M. started out campaign and introduced the Minion War, Calgary was our first stop. Throughout the course of the campaign we've managed to destroy it twice. All this was well before Megaverse in Flames came out. Now that it is out, nothing's being ret-conned. We're in this for the long haul.

Tiree wrote:I'm sure a lot of it is overall story. The players aren't actively being game changers to that story. They may win battles, but the war was already decided, and apparently the CS are the winners.

Did you happen to read MiF? No winner was declared and Heroes of Humanity is not an aftermath book.

Tiree wrote:But from what I have heard on Heroes of Humanity (Kevin's Interview), it hasn't even been written yet. I'm sure Carl can whip it out in short time, it will still go through the Palladium vortex of editing, and the final release date is unknown. Now I could be wrong that it hasn't been written, and I hope I am. Out of all the MiF series of books, this new one proposed is the only one that has peaked my interest.

Kevin and I spoke at length about this book at GenCon and I will be contributing to this book. While all major nations general responses are outlined in MiF, this will focus in more detail on the CS response.

I'd like to see more on Lazlo and Dweomer personally. I hope they get a section of the book

So the new sourcebook is basically "The Big Book Of Why The CS Aren't Baddies And Let's All Pretend The Stuff From The Early Books Never Existed".

Not sure where you got that one Rallan.

As it's been described it's "CS Response to the Minion war +New toys (guns/bots/Pa etc)"

Carl Gleba wrote:

Tiree wrote:I'm sure a lot of it is overall story. The players aren't actively being game changers to that story. They may win battles, but the war was already decided, and apparently the CS are the winners.

Did you happen to read MiF? No winner was declared and Heroes of Humanity is not an aftermath book.

Not yet, I have not picked up my copy.

Carl Gleba wrote:

Tiree wrote:But from what I have heard on Heroes of Humanity (Kevin's Interview), it hasn't even been written yet. I'm sure Carl can whip it out in short time, it will still go through the Palladium vortex of editing, and the final release date is unknown. Now I could be wrong that it hasn't been written, and I hope I am. Out of all the MiF series of books, this new one proposed is the only one that has peaked my interest.

Kevin and I spoke at length about this book at GenCon and I will be contributing to this book. While all major nations general responses are outlined in MiF, this will focus in more detail on the CS response.

Good to hear. It sounded like you were going to be the primary writer AND you were just given the assignment.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:Not sure where you got that one Rallan.

As it's been described it's "CS Response to the Minion war +New toys (guns/bots/Pa etc)"

Well it's a book about the CS as protagonists in a war against an umambigously evil foe, with the CS being called "Heroes of Humanity" (its even in the title), and it promises to have a closer look at the motives and morality of the CS (which presumably means they'll be casting the CS in a more sympathetic light so that people who want to play CS characters as good guys will have an easier time glossing over the whole tyrannical police state of genocidal future-nazis thing).

If I was a gambling man I'd say that it's probably going to deliver the whitewashing that the fans have been asking for.

Rallan wrote:Well it's a book about the CS as protagonists in a war against an umambigously evil foe, with the CS being called "Heroes of Humanity" (its even in the title), and it promises to have a closer look at the motives and morality of the CS (which presumably means they'll be casting the CS in a more sympathetic light so that people who want to play CS characters as good guys will have an easier time glossing over the whole tyrannical police state of genocidal future-nazis thing).

This already began in the Coalition War Campaign. Where the CS went from being evil to Are the CS Evil?. "No kind of yes and no". The implication being that not everyone in the CS is evil. All well and true except those in charge are evil through and through. So even if the CS has good people within their borders working with the military by and large are powerless.

Rallan wrote:So If I was a gambling man I'd say that it's probably going to deliver the whitewashing that the fans have been asking for.

Agreed and seconded.

I expect the Cs to lose no territory. Get a slap on the wrist at most a bloody nose. Given that from the looks of it their core attitudes and philosophies will remain the same.

Rallan wrote:which presumably means they'll be casting the CS in a more sympathetic light so that people who want to play CS characters as good guys will have an easier time glossing over the whole tyrannical police state of genocidal future-nazis thing

Why would I want that?

The Coalition States are interesting because their villainy is a rational survival response to a world full of supernatural, shape-changing, man-eating creatures from beyond our dimension. If I lived in a world filled with polymorphed predators with a taste for human flesh and insidious creatures with incomprehensible mind control powers, I'd probably be apt to shoot anything that looked funny too, just out of a desperate sense of self-preservation. It may not be just, but it's a natural survival instinct for those who want to live another day.

It's easy to vilify the Coalition for the murderous things they do, but how does the average CS soldier know those D-bee children aren't actually 3 ft. tall blood-sucking predators? Or a poly-morphed red dragon? Or demonically possessed? Or juvenile forms of a deadly supernatural menace? Or an illusion used to manipulate their faith in humanity and their leadership?

The answer is, they just don't. Moreover, they've heard stories of other soldiers or civilians being killed by just that sort of trick. Are they going to risk their life hoping that this time, maybe, those D-Bee children actually are harmless children? Not if they want to live to go home to their families they won't.

But the Coalition as a whole should know better, you say? Sure. Theoretically. Then again, they have a responsibility to protect a largely powerless human population from just the sort of horrors that were mentioned earlier - even if you know what a D'norr Devilman is, and that he's likely just as harmless as the average human, there are still too many unknowns the CS can't rule out - that there's a more dangerous or powerful variation of the D'norr Devilman that has yet to be cataloged, that what you think is a D'norr is actually something else disguising itself by means magical or mundane, that the D'norr may host some extra-dimensional disease that could wipe out the entire city-state, that the D'norr is a mundane terrorist with a desire for revenge against the Coalition for the deaths of his fellow Devilmen. Take a chance, blow it, and dozens of innocent human lives may be lost. Why take that chance at all?

Which is not to say that I'm arguing that the leadership of the Coalition is just. They obviously have a very vested interest in maintaining their iron grip on society, and they manipulate people's fears of the unknown to keep their positions of power. They make war against the d-bee and the magic user knowing full well they will be slaughtering the innocent alongside the vile, but it's also hard to argue that their methods haven't saved millions of human lives.

Can you do evil for a good cause? Can evil be beneficial to others? Can doing the right thing morally be the wrong thing for a species? Is something truly just if it dooms others to a horrible death? I find these to be very interesting questions, which is why I love the Coalition States. The last thing I want is for the Coalition States to stop being evil. It's the dichotomy of murderer and hero which makes them so fun to read about and play as.

Proseksword wrote:

Rallan wrote:which presumably means they'll be casting the CS in a more sympathetic light so that people who want to play CS characters as good guys will have an easier time glossing over the whole tyrannical police state of genocidal future-nazis thing

Why would I want that?

The Coalition States are interesting because their villainy is a rational survival response to a world full of supernatural, shape-changing, man-eating creatures from beyond our dimension.

Yup.
I don't know of many CS fans who want the CS to be "white-washed."
They're much more interesting as the quasi-Nazis that they are, precisely because they're villains, but they're sometimes all that stand between your characters and death.

It looks to me that people are seeing the name and are sprinting off to the races on what the book is, with no indication of the book actually 'being' that.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:It looks to me that people are seeing the name and are sprinting off to the races on what the book is, with no indication of the book actually 'being' that.

Yup.

I take the name to be partially ironic, in that they normally view themselves as the "heroes of humanity," but they're really normally an oppressive regime... but when the **** hits the demon-fan, it turns out that they have a chance for some real heroics for a change.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:It looks to me that people are seeing the name and are sprinting off to the races on what the book is, with no indication of the book actually 'being' that.

Yup.

I take the name to be partially ironic, in that they normally view themselves as the "heroes of humanity," but they're really normally an oppressive regime... but when the **** hits the demon-fan, it turns out that they have a chance for some real heroics for a change.

Post like this are why you got poster of the year KC

Nailed it.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Pepsi Jedi wrote:It looks to me that people are seeing the name and are sprinting off to the races on what the book is, with no indication of the book actually 'being' that.

Yup.

I take the name to be partially ironic, in that they normally view themselves as the "heroes of humanity," but they're really normally an oppressive regime... but when the **** hits the demon-fan, it turns out that they have a chance for some real heroics for a change.

That's --exactly-- how I take it. The people in the CS don't see themselves as villains and very much do think they're the heroes of the story.

Pepsi Jedi wrote:That's --exactly-- how I take it. The people in the CS don't see themselves as villains and very much do think they're the heroes of the story.

Well one could say they have to see themselves as heroes. Or the select few in control will be unhappy. Something along the lines of " we the CS are the heroes. We don't take too kindly to any citizens thinking otherwise". Posters forget that the average citizen is both brainwashed and threatened by those who hold the power. Probably both on a regular basis.

The CS government promotes pride in being human and they're the ones who make the PSA that tells you to kill or be killed when confronted with those cute little pink skinned d-bees with the big eyes and adorable clothes. However, the PSA earlier in the week showed a town that had been flattened, it's populace turned into zombies and made to serve some scaly skinned necromancer, forcing the army with a heavy heart to annihilate their former friends and comrades so their taint doesn't spread. Then they showed the necromancer's public execution, news at 11.

Even though people in the CS might ask themselves, "Is this right? Are we in the wrong? Have we brought this on ourseleves?" They don't voice it because of all the people who are in 100% agreement with the government's actions AND motives.

When HoH comes out, there won't be any question anymore. The government and the army will be firing on all 2 million cylinders of righteous hatred for the xenos (ahem). I think all the haters are just upset the CS gets to do something "good" (though honestly it's just defending itself) without shifting it's paradigm.

They are doing something good to be sure. They are looking after their own interests as well. It's in Rifts Earth but mostly in the CS best interests to get involved. Not to mention one kind act does not a good and kind CS make. I'm sure at one point Hitler did something kind. It will never excuse all the evil things he did.

I'm not a CS hater. I despise factions in RPGs getting plot armor because of fan or developer popularity.

Sureshot wrote:I'm not a CS hater. I despise factions in RPGs getting plot armor because of fan or developer popularity.

Right.
But the CS doesn't.
Unless you want to consider "they were originally created to be the most powerful force in North America, and they still are" to be "plot armor."

Yeah, I look at other games and there is some serious favoritism (if you know anything about Legend of the 5 Rings, I give you exhibit A: The Spider Clan). But KC is right, the CS isn't an under dog that keeps inexplicably winning, they're the evil overlords of the north American setting and have a pretty right grip on their holdings. It's consistent with the material.

I guess the favouritism seems to come from suddenly being able to acquire, field and train a million soldiers. Suddenly the wilds of Rifts Earth and/or the CS burbs suddenly have a million people ready to fight. That's favouritism right there IMO.

Sureshot wrote:I guess the favouritism seems to come from suddenly being able to acquire, field and train a million soldiers. Suddenly the wilds of Rifts Earth and/or the CS burbs suddenly have a million people ready to fight. That's favouritism right there IMO.

Why are you using the word "sudden"...?

RMB 140
The Coalition State of Chi-Town encompasses Northern Illinois and all of Iowa.... Tiny farm communities can be found every 50 miles or so...Only the occasional military base breaks the peace and beauty of this simple country... Estimated population is 1.3 million.

The Illinois portion of the Chi-Town State is the undisputed hub of North American civilization. Hundreds of small towns and villages dot the land around a dozen large cities (each city has an average population of approximately 200,000 citizens).

Chi-Town, the city itself... boasts a strictly human population of two million, with an additional three million living in the slums, known as "The Burbs."

What we're looking at in the state of Chi-Town alone is:
1.3 million people in small farming communities
Another 2.4 million people living in the large cities.
Another 2 million people in the city of Chi-Town
Another three million living in the Chi-Town Burbs.

If the CS recruited 1/3 of the Chi-Town Burbs, that's a million men right there.
That's not out of nowhere.
If they recruited 20% of the Chi-Town Burbs, that's 300k men.
If they recruited 15% of the farm community, that's another 205k.
If they recruited 15% of the city boys, that's another 360k.
So that's about 865k right there, just from one CS state, just from the original numbers in the main book (which don't include any of the alliances and territories gained SINCE 100 PA).

Yeah, they could have gone into more detail about the logistics and details of recruiting that many people, but I think it's safe to say that Palladium assumed that we wouldn't be interested in reading detailed logistic reports on the recruitment methods of an imaginary civilization.

On the other side of things, Tolkeen likewise got a big troop surge of volunteers.
Plus they got all the new toys and magical abilities from the FoM book, PLUS all kinds of zany stuff like the Triangular Rift Defense stuff.
So if recruiting a million-man army seems "out of nowhere," I guess I can kind of see that... but only if the same standard is applied to all the "out of nowhere" stuff that the CS enemies got.
Worst case scenario, it's bad writing, but it's NOT favoritism because it happens to all factions.

I see what you mean. It's still bad writing I agree. I wish they would actually do some research on logistics instead of just pulling unrealistic numbers out of thin air. They are fielding another large army. That has to okay havoc with the CS economy. I would like to to see something like that happen in HOH.

Sureshot wrote:I see what you mean. It's still bad writing I agree. I wish they would actually do some research on logistics instead of just pulling unrealistic numbers out of thin air. They are fielding another large army. That has to okay havoc with the CS economy. I would like to to see something like that happen in HOH.

This has actually been discussed. Repeatedly the entire CS Economy is to field that army. Who ever isn't 'In' The army, for the most part works to keep that army fed and in gear, supported. Probably 8 out of 10 jobs out side of the CS military feed straight back into it.

Even if you're one of the farmers, raising the genetically enhanced cattle (Check lone star for that one) That grow faster, eat less, produce more meat that tastes awesome... You're a farmer who's working to feed the military and feed the other CS citizens that work to produce everything ELSE the Army needs, be it your wife that works in the factory that sew's the CS Army's underwear, or your cousin who works in the factory that puts together the guns, or your other cousin that works in the mud farms helping to harvest all the ceramics to help make the MDC materials, or you're the guy that works at Coalition King burger joints that feeds the chick that works in the underwear factory and the mudder in the mud fields and the guys on the farm. etc. It all circles around. The CS Economy is very much "On War Footing" To maintain and fields those 3 million troops.

As for population numbers. KC points out, there's more of a population in the CS than one usually thinks of. Most people think of the CS as "Chitown and some smaller states" but there are multiple megacities with their corresponding states that have towns of hundreds of thousands of people.

I don't have the new book, but if I'm not mistaken the 'threat' of the demon invasion galvanizes the CS and they get a flood of new people signing up.

Just like the US did after 9-11. We had so many people trying to join the military that we were turning people away.

As for the 'Suddenly" Getting the million troops. This has been addressed too. Basic training only lasts 2 or 3 months, tops. And that's if your troops can read. The majority of the CS basic training isn't going to be THAT deep just for grunts. With standing armies of 2,000,000+ already, their training cardres have to be MASSIVE, even if they had 10,000 or 50,000 troops detached to put the guys through basic, it could be done in 3 to 6 months and there's your new recruit army. Rotate um to the front lines, mix um in with the experienced troops and giddy up.

Remember, MDC materials also means "Stuff doesn't wear out and need be replaced" the only way to damage MDC stuff is with Mega damage. They can even produce MDC Uniforms now (Well NG does, if nothing else they could buy them straight from NG) That cuts way way way down on your logistics. sure you still need some spare parts, but not the sort of amounts you need for 'normal' items. If your gun will work till the cows come home even if you drop it from a moving Death's head transport, you don't need replacements unless a dragon bites it in half or something. Multiply that times most everything in the CS military.

Comparing the CS economy and military deployment to the American economic and military system is like comparing apples and mutant orangutans.

The US is a consumer driven economy. Even during WWII, which was the height of our military industrialization, we still had massive consumer spending. In the CS everything revolves around the military. Taxes are almost certainly through the roof and peoples ability to spend money on consumer goods is almost certainly limited, maybe even close to nonexistent. Now normally this kind of economy is completely unsustainable (see the fall of the Soviet Union) but in the case of Rifts Earth people are willing to tolerate it because it is not an imaginary or potential enemy they are preparing for but a real and truly horrific enemy that wants to enslave and/or kill them. This means they are willing to sacrifice a lot just for the privilege of living in a fortress city.

Logistics are also something that comes up with the CS. Again, the US has most of its major military deployments on the other side of the world and all of our equipment are major gas guzzlers requiring physical ammunition (bullets, bombs, missiles). The CS uses very little physical fuel, most being nuclear. Also, most weapons are energy based needing no ammunition. This combined with how close the CS deploys its armies (usually less then 1,000 miles from a major city) and their logistics requirements will not be anything like the current US military.

Manufacturing is also heavily automated, as would farming I assume, so your manpower requirements there would also be lower.

As for the 1 million new troops and how to train them, I think everyone is assuming these will be 1 million new RPAs, military specialists or even grunts. I would like to remind you that Joseph Stalin fielded millions of soldiers in a matter of weeks, there training was something close to nonexistent. All Prosek has to do is get a bunch of old style armor and weapons out of storage, hand it out. Do a quick few days of "point the rifle where the guy with the bars tells you to" and your off to the races. At the end of the day a million bullet catches/walking decoys will be just as useful to him as fully trained soldiers.

The proper historical comparison for the CS is not the modern US. Think Germany 1938 or Soviet Union 1940, only with golden age technology.

Also given how hostile of a world rifts earth is many of their recruites already likely have at least some experience with light body armor and probably light environmental body armor and high energy weapons. The plus side of so much of their equipment falling off the truck to the black market over the years means many people near the CS states likely have some previous experience handling CS equipment.

Also all of that equipment is designed for the use by people who are totally illiterate so its going to be as dumbed down and soldier proof as physically possible so even with some basic training you could turn out people capable of shooting the right direction at the big scary things. As with WWII the recruits who can't learn fast die first and those who survive learn very rapidly. The high quality of the CS gears means even barely trained yokels still have about as much durability as lesser demons/devils with comparable offensive punch. The big issue would be shaky moral but combined with the commisar type political officers the CS already has and the fact they are actually fighting honest to god demons from hell puts things in a very stark light.

I don't understand why everything isn't just a world book, if a 'war campaign' can be a 'world' book then I think a 'heroes' book can be as well. Locations like Mindwerks also for some reason are source instead of world...

Is it to take away from the impact of just how many books there are?

Have the sourcebooks even been numbered?

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Proseksword wrote:

Rallan wrote:which presumably means they'll be casting the CS in a more sympathetic light so that people who want to play CS characters as good guys will have an easier time glossing over the whole tyrannical police state of genocidal future-nazis thing

Why would I want that?

The Coalition States are interesting because their villainy is a rational survival response to a world full of supernatural, shape-changing, man-eating creatures from beyond our dimension.

Yup.
I don't know of many CS fans who want the CS to be "white-washed."
They're much more interesting as the quasi-Nazis that they are, precisely because they're villains, but they're sometimes all that stand between your characters and death.

I don't think this is going to be a whitewash but when you have the CS pitting themselves up to the hilt fighting off real honest to god demons and devils from the pits of hades and dyvaal they do tend to come out of that type of fight if they survive looking pretty good in comparison especially for humans.

Tor wrote:I don't understand why everything isn't just a world book, if a 'war campaign' can be a 'world' book then I think a 'heroes' book can be as well. Locations like Mindwerks also for some reason are source instead of world...

Is it to take away from the impact of just how many books there are?

Have the sourcebooks even been numbered?

Sourcebooks in RIFTs originally seemed to be about providing supplemental information on an area that didn't rise to the scale of a full World Book - Sourcebook 1 was basically a jumble of random places, equipment, rules, and factoids. Sourcebook 2 was more of an overgrown adventure/campaign book, Sourcebook 3 probably could have been considered a world book for Poland, but wasn't large enough to be considered a full World Book. Sourcebook 3 was the last Sourcebook to be numbered.

Since book 3, none of the Sourcebooks have been numbered. Personally, as a completionist I wish they were still numbered. I think we'd be on SB12 with the Vampire Sourcebook?