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From the "Better GB Killer" topic:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Mack wrote:Skelebots are by far the best way to take out a Glitterboy. Send in a dozen or so but don't bother with ranged attacks. Just have them swarm the GB and use their robotic strength to grapple/pin him, then just disable/destroy the suit at your leisure. Sure, you will lose a few 'bots in the assault but that's a trade the CS would make any day of the week.

Pretty good strategy.
A GB can grapple... but not so much if they're outnumbered that heavily.

I might have to run some test scenarios on this one some day.

So I decided to apply a bit of math to this scenario. Here's what I came up with.

Assumptions:
- Eight Skelebots, starting at 1/4 mile away.
- While the Skelebots have a top speed of 90mph, they will evade and zig-zag as they approach, reducing their closing speed to 60mph. This means they can close the gap in a single melee round. (Yay for convenient math!)
- A 5th level Glitterboy pilot, who (after all the bonuses and penalties) needs to roll a 7 or better to hit.
- The GB has 7 attacks per melee round.
- Taking into account the missed shots and critical hits, the GB will average 78.75 MDC per attack.
- For simplicity, I gave the GB initiative.
- If 3 Skelebots can get into grappling range, I give them the win.

Details:


Results:
After the one round, 3 Skelebots are destroyed, 1 is damaged, and 4 are untouched. That leaves plenty to grapple with GB and eventually disable/destroy it (not a quick process). Victory to the Skelebots.

Range is definitely the Glitterboy's ally. Should the Skelebots start from a 1/2 mile away, then only a single robot would make it close enough to grapple. I'd call that a GB victory.

Using the new FASSAR-30 Skelebots (150 MDC) versus the original FASSAR-20s (100 MDC) doesn't change the outcome as both require two hits from the boomgun.

Also, if you forget the evasive zig-zag and have the Skelebots run straight at the Glitterboy, then there would be five shots fired before they get into grappling range (2 destroyed, 1 damaged, and 5 whole robots). Arriving sooner via the increased closing speed (90mph vs 60mph) outweighs strike penalty for evasion.

Closing thoughts:
So there ya go. If you find yourself to be a CS soldier with a handful of Skelebots and need to kill a lone Glitterboy, then you should get your robotic minions to within a 1/4 mile of the target before shots are fired. If you can't do that, then it's best if you wait for a better opportunity or just go home.

And if you find yourself to be a Glitterboy pilot all alone walking in the woods. First, remind yourself to brings friends on your next walk. And second, find yourself some high-ground with a nice long field of fire right quick. Terrain is your enemy.

Except that as per RUE , you need a minimum of 8 to hit at range.....so any penalties and bonuses would have to account for that as well. Unless you meant a 7 on the die roll itself then nevermind

Otherwise excellent analysis.

GBs are artillery. Not HTH fighters. Always better to close the gap Heavier PA's and FulCon Borgs are the worst for a GB as they are usually better fitted for speed and HTH.

Hell one of my first orders for the skelebots would be to sever the ammo feed and take the BG out of the fight entirely.

jaymz wrote:Except that as per RUE , you need a minimum of 8 to hit at range.....so any penalties and bonuses would have to account for that as well. Unless you meant a 7 on the die roll itself then nevermind

Hmm... "A 5th level Glitterboy pilot, who (after all the bonuses and penalties) needs to roll a 7 or better to hit."

jaymz wrote:Otherwise excellent analysis.

Thank you.

jaymz wrote:GBs are artillery. Not HTH fighters. Always better to close the gap Heavier PA's and FulCon Borgs are the worst for a GB as they are usually better fitted for speed and HTH.

Hell one of my first orders for the skelebots would be to sever the ammo feed and take the BG out of the fight entirely.

Agreed. I figure the first two Skelebots use their strength to immobilize the boomgun while the remainder disable it.

Just making sure as some people mean the total when they say roll a number to hit with. You meant die. That makes sense then

Funny thing is they say a pair of Samas have a good chance of success against a GB and three Sams should almost always win....Thing is, if they only fight at range they are likely tolose not win. Again they; have to close to HTH/Grappling range.

Ah well. I say snipe the helmet from behind sturdy cover and move when you can to snipe some more. Easier to take out it''s head and i don;t care how much MDC it has, getting hit in the head repeatedly is going to be a distraction

Sidenote - The CS GB killer can't kill a GB in any consistent fashion. Useless unit in my opinion for that purpose.

Mack wrote:From the "Better GB Killer" topic:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Mack wrote:Skelebots are by far the best way to take out a Glitterboy. Send in a dozen or so but don't bother with ranged attacks. Just have them swarm the GB and use their robotic strength to grapple/pin him, then just disable/destroy the suit at your leisure. Sure, you will lose a few 'bots in the assault but that's a trade the CS would make any day of the week.

Pretty good strategy.
A GB can grapple... but not so much if they're outnumbered that heavily.

I might have to run some test scenarios on this one some day.

So I decided to apply a bit of math to this scenario. Here's what I came up with.

Assumptions:
- Eight Skelebots, starting at 1/4 mile away.
- While the Skelebots have a top speed of 90mph, they will evade and zig-zag as they approach, reducing their closing speed to 60mph. This means they can close the gap in a single melee round. (Yay for convenient math!)
- A 5th level Glitterboy pilot, who (after all the bonuses and penalties) needs to roll a 7 or better to hit.
- The GB has 7 attacks per melee round.
- Taking into account the missed shots and critical hits, the GB will average 78.75 MDC per attack.
- For simplicity, I gave the GB initiative.
- If 3 Skelebots can get into grappling range, I give them the win.

Details:

Spoiler:

Attack 1:
- GB shoots Skelebot 1 for 78.75MD.
- 8 Skelebots advance.
Attack 2:
- GB shoots Skelebot 1 and destroys it.
- 7 Skelebots advance.
Attack 3:
- GB shoots Skelebot 2 for 78.75MD.
- 7 Skelebots advance.
Attack 4:
- GB shoots Skelebot 2 and destroys it.
- 6 Skelebots advance.
Attack 5:
- GB shoots Skelebot 3 for 78.75MD.
- 6 Skelebots advance.
Attack 6:
- GB shoots Skelebot 3 and destroys it.
- 5 Skelebots advance.
Attack 7:
- GB shoots Skelebot 4 for 78.75MD.
- 5 Skelebots advance and arrive in melee range.

Results:
After the one round, 3 Skelebots are destroyed, 1 is damaged, and 4 are untouched. That leaves plenty to grapple with GB and eventually disable/destroy it (not a quick process). Victory to the Skelebots.

Range is definitely the Glitterboy's ally. Should the Skelebots start from a 1/2 mile away, then only a single robot would make it close enough to grapple. I'd call that a GB victory.

Using the new FASSAR-30 Skelebots (150 MDC) versus the original FASSAR-20s (100 MDC) doesn't change the outcome as both require two hits from the boomgun.

Also, if you forget the evasive zig-zag and have the Skelebots run straight at the Glitterboy, then there would be five shots fired before they get into grappling range (2 destroyed, 1 damaged, and 5 whole robots). Arriving sooner via the increased closing speed (90mph vs 60mph) outweighs strike penalty for evasion.

Closing thoughts:
So there ya go. If you find yourself to be a CS soldier with a handful of Skelebots and need to kill a lone Glitterboy, then you should get your robotic minions to within a 1/4 mile of the target before shots are fired. If you can't do that, then it's best if you wait for a better opportunity or just go home.

And if you find yourself to be a Glitterboy pilot all alone walking in the woods. First, remind yourself to brings friends on your next walk. And second, find yourself some high-ground with a nice long field of fire right quick. Terrain is your enemy.

That is the only thing in your post that for some reason seems off to me. It seems like it should take longer to close in from that distance...

The Beast wrote:

Mack wrote:- Eight Skelebots, starting at 1/4 mile away.
- While the Skelebots have a top speed of 90mph, they will evade and zig-zag as they approach, reducing their closing speed to 60mph. This means they can close the gap in a single melee round. (Yay for convenient math!)

That is the only thing in your post that for some reason seems off to me. It seems like it should take longer to close in from that distance...

So 60 miles per hour...
= 60 Miles / Hour
= 1 Mile / Minute (divide by 60 to get speed in minutes)
= 0.25 Miles / 0.25 Minutes (divide by 4 to get a quarter minute)
= 0.25 Miles / 1 Melee Round (a quarter minute is equal to a melee round)

So transiting a quarter mile takes one melee round at 60 mph.

(Now, I freely admit that I arbitrarily choose for the zig-zag to drop the closing speed from 90 mph to 60 mph, but losing a third of one's speed seemed reasonable. For the non zig-zag "straight in" approach, 90 mph works out to a quarter mile in 10 seconds.)

What about sniping or getting someone to sneak up on the GB and cut the ammo feed?

Mack wrote:

The Beast wrote:

Mack wrote:- Eight Skelebots, starting at 1/4 mile away.
- While the Skelebots have a top speed of 90mph, they will evade and zig-zag as they approach, reducing their closing speed to 60mph. This means they can close the gap in a single melee round. (Yay for convenient math!)

That is the only thing in your post that for some reason seems off to me. It seems like it should take longer to close in from that distance...

So 60 miles per hour...
= 60 Miles / Hour
= 1 Mile / Minute (divide by 60 to get speed in minutes)
= 0.25 Miles / 0.25 Minutes (divide by 4 to get a quarter minute)
= 0.25 Miles / 1 Melee Round (a quarter minute is equal to a melee round)

So transiting a quarter mile takes one melee round at 60 mph.

(Now, I freely admit that I arbitrarily choose for the zig-zag to drop the closing speed from 90 mph to 60 mph, but losing a third of one's speed seemed reasonable. For the non zig-zag "straight in" approach, 90 mph works out to a quarter mile in 10 seconds.)

Strikes me as a pretty reasonable assumption also given they are not running over a flat paved area maintaining max speed while dodging would be almost impossible.


As for the 3 samas vs 1 gb the fight would likely go to the samas even at range. Their speed makes them hard targets to shoot and given the GB has to lock down to fire its almost guaranteeing two SAMAS free shots at its back while it tries to shoot one. Samas can also survive a single full strength shot or 2 or 3 average roll shots and with the speeds and maneuverability involved it would be hard for a GB to concentrate fire on one without giving the other two a massive amount of free shots at it.

A gb on its own is a potent opponent but one with some limitations that are exploitable. Where GB really show their awesomeness is in the glitterboy formations Free quebec uses where they can deploy as intended with ancillary support to offset their weaknesses.

kaid wrote:

Mack wrote:

The Beast wrote:

Mack wrote:- Eight Skelebots, starting at 1/4 mile away.
- While the Skelebots have a top speed of 90mph, they will evade and zig-zag as they approach, reducing their closing speed to 60mph. This means they can close the gap in a single melee round. (Yay for convenient math!)

That is the only thing in your post that for some reason seems off to me. It seems like it should take longer to close in from that distance...

So 60 miles per hour...
= 60 Miles / Hour
= 1 Mile / Minute (divide by 60 to get speed in minutes)
= 0.25 Miles / 0.25 Minutes (divide by 4 to get a quarter minute)
= 0.25 Miles / 1 Melee Round (a quarter minute is equal to a melee round)

So transiting a quarter mile takes one melee round at 60 mph.

(Now, I freely admit that I arbitrarily choose for the zig-zag to drop the closing speed from 90 mph to 60 mph, but losing a third of one's speed seemed reasonable. For the non zig-zag "straight in" approach, 90 mph works out to a quarter mile in 10 seconds.)

Strikes me as a pretty reasonable assumption also given they are not running over a flat paved area maintaining max speed while dodging would be almost impossible.


As for the 3 samas vs 1 gb the fight would likely go to the samas even at range. Their speed makes them hard targets to shoot and given the GB has to lock down to fire its almost guaranteeing two SAMAS free shots at its back while it tries to shoot one. Samas can also survive a single full strength shot or 2 or 3 average roll shots and with the speeds and maneuverability involved it would be hard for a GB to concentrate fire on one without giving the other two a massive amount of free shots at it.

A gb on its own is a potent opponent but one with some limitations that are exploitable. Where GB really show their awesomeness is in the glitterboy formations Free quebec uses where they can deploy as intended with ancillary support to offset their weaknesses.

This is why in the Free Quebec world book it says that the GB were never intended for fighting alone but to work with other units (even as a unit composed of other GB's).

Mack wrote:From the "Better GB Killer" topic:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Mack wrote:Skelebots are by far the best way to take out a Glitterboy. Send in a dozen or so but don't bother with ranged attacks. Just have them swarm the GB and use their robotic strength to grapple/pin him, then just disable/destroy the suit at your leisure. Sure, you will lose a few 'bots in the assault but that's a trade the CS would make any day of the week.

Pretty good strategy.
A GB can grapple... but not so much if they're outnumbered that heavily.

I might have to run some test scenarios on this one some day.

So I decided to apply a bit of math to this scenario. Here's what I came up with.

Assumptions:
- Eight Skelebots, starting at 1/4 mile away.
- While the Skelebots have a top speed of 90mph, they will evade and zig-zag as they approach, reducing their closing speed to 60mph. This means they can close the gap in a single melee round. (Yay for convenient math!)
- A 5th level Glitterboy pilot, who (after all the bonuses and penalties) needs to roll a 7 or better to hit.
- The GB has 7 attacks per melee round.
- Taking into account the missed shots and critical hits, the GB will average 78.75 MDC per attack.
- For simplicity, I gave the GB initiative.
- If 3 Skelebots can get into grappling range, I give them the win.

Details:

Spoiler:

Attack 1:
- GB shoots Skelebot 1 for 78.75MD.
- 8 Skelebots advance.
Attack 2:
- GB shoots Skelebot 1 and destroys it.
- 7 Skelebots advance.
Attack 3:
- GB shoots Skelebot 2 for 78.75MD.
- 7 Skelebots advance.
Attack 4:
- GB shoots Skelebot 2 and destroys it.
- 6 Skelebots advance.
Attack 5:
- GB shoots Skelebot 3 for 78.75MD.
- 6 Skelebots advance.
Attack 6:
- GB shoots Skelebot 3 and destroys it.
- 5 Skelebots advance.
Attack 7:
- GB shoots Skelebot 4 for 78.75MD.
- 5 Skelebots advance and arrive in melee range.

Results:
After the one round, 3 Skelebots are destroyed, 1 is damaged, and 4 are untouched. That leaves plenty to grapple with GB and eventually disable/destroy it (not a quick process). Victory to the Skelebots.

Range is definitely the Glitterboy's ally. Should the Skelebots start from a 1/2 mile away, then only a single robot would make it close enough to grapple. I'd call that a GB victory.

Using the new FASSAR-30 Skelebots (150 MDC) versus the original FASSAR-20s (100 MDC) doesn't change the outcome as both require two hits from the boomgun.

Also, if you forget the evasive zig-zag and have the Skelebots run straight at the Glitterboy, then there would be five shots fired before they get into grappling range (2 destroyed, 1 damaged, and 5 whole robots). Arriving sooner via the increased closing speed (90mph vs 60mph) outweighs strike penalty for evasion.

Closing thoughts:
So there ya go. If you find yourself to be a CS soldier with a handful of Skelebots and need to kill a lone Glitterboy, then you should get your robotic minions to within a 1/4 mile of the target before shots are fired. If you can't do that, then it's best if you wait for a better opportunity or just go home.

And if you find yourself to be a Glitterboy pilot all alone walking in the woods. First, remind yourself to brings friends on your next walk. And second, find yourself some high-ground with a nice long field of fire right quick. Terrain is your enemy.

Why isn't the GB performing evasive? Jump into the air backwards. Fire shot, make acrobatics roll, with difficulty modifier or whatever you'd use, land. Shot taken, ground gained or rather lost by the skelebots. Rinse and repeat.

By my math:
30' per attack equals about 210' per melee.
Running at 60 mph equals about 1321' per melee.

Killer Cyborg wrote:By my math:
30' per attack equals about 210' per melee.
Running at 60 mph equals about 1321' per melee.

still gives time. And I did say start wit a backwards jump... Of course I meant jet assisted. And if we're talking what would really happen... Then a shot in the air should throw the GB more than 30' back and would probably also flip ot end over end, requiring some major skills nut seeing as how a PC isnt supposed to be an average person... it shouldn't be made impossible for the character. Especially if one play whatever the GB character that is supposed to come from a long ling of pilots... His pappy was like to train him from the moment he was able to enter a simulator.

jaymz wrote:Funny thing is they say a pair of Samas have a good chance of success against a GB and three Sams should almost always win....Thing is, if they only fight at range they are likely tolose not win. Again they; have to close to HTH/Grappling range.

Ah well. I say snipe the helmet from behind sturdy cover and move when you can to snipe some more. Easier to take out it''s head and i don;t care how much MDC it has, getting hit in the head repeatedly is going to be a distraction

Sidenote - The CS GB killer can't kill a GB in any consistent fashion. Useless unit in my opinion for that purpose.

Samas can run at it like A-10 on a tank. They don't come in from the same vector. While the GB is concentrating on the incoming SAMAS the other has free shots without the disadvantage of having to perform evasive maneuvers. Is probably what they were thinking... But it doesn't work that way... Until a SAMAS is built around a gun system. SAMAS Warthog anyone?

Essentially the GB is the design equivalent of an A-10. What designation did PB give it?

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:By my math:
30' per attack equals about 210' per melee.
Running at 60 mph equals about 1321' per melee.

still gives time. And I did say start wit a backwards jump... Of course I meant jet assisted. And if we're talking what would really happen... Then a shot in the air should throw the GB more than 30' back and would probably also flip ot end over end, requiring some major skills nut seeing as how a PC isnt supposed to be an average person... it shouldn't be made impossible for the character. Especially if one play whatever the GB character that is supposed to come from a long ling of pilots... His pappy was like to train him from the moment he was able to enter a simulator.

Seems like a lot of risk and effort in order to not really accomplish anything.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:By my math:
30' per attack equals about 210' per melee.
Running at 60 mph equals about 1321' per melee.

still gives time. And I did say start wit a backwards jump... Of course I meant jet assisted. And if we're talking what would really happen... Then a shot in the air should throw the GB more than 30' back and would probably also flip ot end over end, requiring some major skills nut seeing as how a PC isnt supposed to be an average person... it shouldn't be made impossible for the character. Especially if one play whatever the GB character that is supposed to come from a long ling of pilots... His pappy was like to train him from the moment he was able to enter a simulator.

Seems like a lot of risk and effort in order to not really accomplish anything.

I wonder if that is what someone said to the first pilot to pull an Immelman or a Cobra?
What is the distance of a jump? Add in minimum 30' plus I'd assume someone desperate enough to do this would also be running backwards at the same time. Since the thrusters only fire in one direction it would make more sense if the GB was running, jumped using gets turned in mid air and fired, attempting to recover landing facing in the direction of travel and continuing his run. Rinse and repeat.

All I'm really trying to say is a GB that stands there while being charged is an idiot.

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:By my math:
30' per attack equals about 210' per melee.
Running at 60 mph equals about 1321' per melee.

still gives time. And I did say start wit a backwards jump... Of course I meant jet assisted. And if we're talking what would really happen... Then a shot in the air should throw the GB more than 30' back and would probably also flip ot end over end, requiring some major skills nut seeing as how a PC isnt supposed to be an average person... it shouldn't be made impossible for the character. Especially if one play whatever the GB character that is supposed to come from a long ling of pilots... His pappy was like to train him from the moment he was able to enter a simulator.

The number of shots per round lost to this manuever (even if succesful) is far outweighed by the skelebots closing speed. At best the GB would get off 1 shot for every 3 actions (and I consider that generous) while the skelebots just keep closing.

Regardless, I don't consider that manuever practicable or repeatable. Or as an old boss of mine would say: "Hope is not a strategy."

But I do like the creativity!

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:By my math:
30' per attack equals about 210' per melee.
Running at 60 mph equals about 1321' per melee.

still gives time. And I did say start wit a backwards jump... Of course I meant jet assisted. And if we're talking what would really happen... Then a shot in the air should throw the GB more than 30' back and would probably also flip ot end over end, requiring some major skills nut seeing as how a PC isnt supposed to be an average person... it shouldn't be made impossible for the character. Especially if one play whatever the GB character that is supposed to come from a long ling of pilots... His pappy was like to train him from the moment he was able to enter a simulator.

Seems like a lot of risk and effort in order to not really accomplish anything.

I wonder if that is what someone said to the first pilot to pull an Immelman or a Cobra?
What is the distance of a jump?

12' for a normal jump, 22' for a running jump, and 80' for a jet assisted leap.
So if you make a jet-assisted leap, turn mid-air and fire the Boom Gun... well, not much would happen unless you disabled the recoil suppression system.
Depending on the GM, that'd take a toolkit and some significant time.

But let's just say you can disable it at the flick of a button...
That'd end up being a 120' jump at the cost of at least 1 action.
If the GB just ran, he'd have moved 1321'.

Since the thrusters only fire in one direction

More accurately, they fire in any direction except for one. They swivel with the gun, so any time the gun points somewhere, they're pointing the opposite direction.

All I'm really trying to say is a GB that stands there while being charged is an idiot.

I think it'd make more sense than making wild shots while performing questionable acrobatics.

It seems to be poor tactics on behalf of the Glitterboy; Mack, are you just running this as the Glitterboy standing and shooting? I'm asking because it seems pretty basic tactics that movement is important, especially when facing superior numbers.

I mention this because you're having the Skelebots acting in a manner they otherwise wouldn't; it doesn't make sense for them not to shoot.

I would also like to mention that the First long-range attack in a round is a critical, not to mention that the Glitterboy gets to make at the very minimum 3 simultaneous strikes against the first three melee attackers. Additionally, the Glitterboy's parry bonus gives him a greater than 50% chance to parry those grapple-attempts.

But beyond this, there is another thing; those skelebots are striking just as wildly against the Glitterboy when he's moving as he would be against them while moving; they may be capable of moving faster than he, but when it comes down to it, they have the same disadvantages the Glitterboy does.

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Mack wrote:From the "Better GB Killer" topic:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Mack wrote:Skelebots are by far the best way to take out a Glitterboy. Send in a dozen or so but don't bother with ranged attacks. Just have them swarm the GB and use their robotic strength to grapple/pin him, then just disable/destroy the suit at your leisure. Sure, you will lose a few 'bots in the assault but that's a trade the CS would make any day of the week.

Pretty good strategy.
A GB can grapple... but not so much if they're outnumbered that heavily.

I might have to run some test scenarios on this one some day.

So I decided to apply a bit of math to this scenario. Here's what I came up with.

Assumptions:
- Eight Skelebots, starting at 1/4 mile away.
- While the Skelebots have a top speed of 90mph, they will evade and zig-zag as they approach, reducing their closing speed to 60mph. This means they can close the gap in a single melee round. (Yay for convenient math!)
- A 5th level Glitterboy pilot, who (after all the bonuses and penalties) needs to roll a 7 or better to hit.
- The GB has 7 attacks per melee round.
- Taking into account the missed shots and critical hits, the GB will average 78.75 MDC per attack.
- For simplicity, I gave the GB initiative.
- If 3 Skelebots can get into grappling range, I give them the win.

Details:

Spoiler:

Attack 1:
- GB shoots Skelebot 1 for 78.75MD.
- 8 Skelebots advance.
Attack 2:
- GB shoots Skelebot 1 and destroys it.
- 7 Skelebots advance.
Attack 3:
- GB shoots Skelebot 2 for 78.75MD.
- 7 Skelebots advance.
Attack 4:
- GB shoots Skelebot 2 and destroys it.
- 6 Skelebots advance.
Attack 5:
- GB shoots Skelebot 3 for 78.75MD.
- 6 Skelebots advance.
Attack 6:
- GB shoots Skelebot 3 and destroys it.
- 5 Skelebots advance.
Attack 7:
- GB shoots Skelebot 4 for 78.75MD.
- 5 Skelebots advance and arrive in melee range.

Results:
After the one round, 3 Skelebots are destroyed, 1 is damaged, and 4 are untouched. That leaves plenty to grapple with GB and eventually disable/destroy it (not a quick process). Victory to the Skelebots.

Range is definitely the Glitterboy's ally. Should the Skelebots start from a 1/2 mile away, then only a single robot would make it close enough to grapple. I'd call that a GB victory.

Using the new FASSAR-30 Skelebots (150 MDC) versus the original FASSAR-20s (100 MDC) doesn't change the outcome as both require two hits from the boomgun.

Also, if you forget the evasive zig-zag and have the Skelebots run straight at the Glitterboy, then there would be five shots fired before they get into grappling range (2 destroyed, 1 damaged, and 5 whole robots). Arriving sooner via the increased closing speed (90mph vs 60mph) outweighs strike penalty for evasion.

Closing thoughts:
So there ya go. If you find yourself to be a CS soldier with a handful of Skelebots and need to kill a lone Glitterboy, then you should get your robotic minions to within a 1/4 mile of the target before shots are fired. If you can't do that, then it's best if you wait for a better opportunity or just go home.

And if you find yourself to be a Glitterboy pilot all alone walking in the woods. First, remind yourself to brings friends on your next walk. And second, find yourself some high-ground with a nice long field of fire right quick. Terrain is your enemy.

Why isn't the GB performing evasive? Jump into the air backwards. Fire shot, make acrobatics roll, with difficulty modifier or whatever you'd use, land. Shot taken, ground gained or rather lost by the skelebots. Rinse and repeat.

Can you shoot in the air? (unless your the Triax flying GB)

Assuming the GB plants and shoots in the same action, and he has distance on the skelebots, the pilot could move and use terrain if it's available.

However, most tanks operate alongside AFVs and/or helicopters. An M1 isn't exactly in the best situation against a bunch of technicals with recoiless rifles, for instance. A G-10 should not be left to fend for itself on the battlefield.

Different set of assumptions.

1) I'm too lazy to math, so everyone hits roughly 2/3 of the time. We'll call that 70 damage per action for a GB (a little over 2/3 of its average damage roll of 95) and 10 damage per single shot for a Skelebot (a little over 2/3 of its average damage roll of 14).

2) 7 actions per round for the GB and 5 for each skelebot. GB wins init every round because he's awesome.

3) Their designers weren't idiots, so the skelebots fire long bursts every action. If your gun can fire bursts and you don't need to reload, why would you ever fire single shots?


Bam. 5 Skelebots will win in the first round, with 3 survivors.

Or we could be sportsmanlike and assume that the skelebots didn't have their variable frequency laser rifles properly tuned, and they'll do half-damage for the first melee round while the computers in their guns analyse the target.

Bam. 6 Skelebots win in the second melee round, with 2 survivors.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:By my math:
30' per attack equals about 210' per melee.
Running at 60 mph equals about 1321' per melee.

still gives time. And I did say start wit a backwards jump... Of course I meant jet assisted. And if we're talking what would really happen... Then a shot in the air should throw the GB more than 30' back and would probably also flip ot end over end, requiring some major skills nut seeing as how a PC isnt supposed to be an average person... it shouldn't be made impossible for the character. Especially if one play whatever the GB character that is supposed to come from a long ling of pilots... His pappy was like to train him from the moment he was able to enter a simulator.

Seems like a lot of risk and effort in order to not really accomplish anything.

I wonder if that is what someone said to the first pilot to pull an Immelman or a Cobra?
What is the distance of a jump?

12' for a normal jump, 22' for a running jump, and 80' for a jet assisted leap.
So if you make a jet-assisted leap, turn mid-air and fire the Boom Gun... well, not much would happen unless you disabled the recoil suppression system.
Depending on the GM, that'd take a toolkit and some significant time.

But let's just say you can disable it at the flick of a button...
That'd end up being a 120' jump at the cost of at least 1 action.
If the GB just ran, he'd have moved 1321'.

Since the thrusters only fire in one direction

More accurately, they fire in any direction except for one. They swivel with the gun, so any time the gun points somewhere, they're pointing the opposite direction.

All I'm really trying to say is a GB that stands there while being charged is an idiot.

I think it'd make more sense than making wild shots while performing questionable acrobatics.

I think running and firing with recoil system disabled would be better than standing there. Lets get rid of the jumppy floppy thing.

Run, turn, fire roll with it and continue running. Too bad it isn't really like a tank where they can just go full speed doward in a retreat and spin the turret around.

Dog_O_War wrote:I would also like to mention that the First long-range attack in a round is a critical, not to mention that the Glitterboy gets to make at the very minimum 3 simultaneous strikes against the first three melee attackers. Additionally, the Glitterboy's parry bonus gives him a greater than 50% chance to parry those grapple-attempts.

But beyond this, there is another thing; those skelebots are striking just as wildly against the Glitterboy when he's moving as he would be against them while moving; they may be capable of moving faster than he, but when it comes down to it, they have the same disadvantages the Glitterboy does.

why parry? Simultaneous attack, point blank, boomguns anyone?

Rallan wrote:Different set of assumptions.

1) I'm too lazy to math, so everyone hits roughly 2/3 of the time. We'll call that 70 damage per action for a GB (a little over 2/3 of its average damage roll of 95) and 10 damage per single shot for a Skelebot (a little over 2/3 of its average damage roll of 14).

2) 7 actions per round for the GB and 5 for each skelebot. GB wins init every round because he's awesome.

3) Their designers weren't idiots, so the skelebots fire long bursts every action. If your gun can fire bursts and you don't need to reload, why would you ever fire single shots?


Bam. 5 Skelebots will win in the first round, with 3 survivors.

Or we could be sportsmanlike and assume that the skelebots didn't have their variable frequency laser rifles properly tuned, and they'll do half-damage for the first melee round while the computers in their guns analyse the target.

Bam. 6 Skelebots win in the second melee round, with 2 survivors.

I think BAM is already someone else's catch phrase.

Been thinking a bit about the GB's jet-assisted leap.
In the right terrain, it could be pretty handy, because he could jump over a crevice, or jump up a cliff, or whatever, leaving the skelebots scrambling to catch up.

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Dog_O_War wrote:I would also like to mention that the First long-range attack in a round is a critical, not to mention that the Glitterboy gets to make at the very minimum 3 simultaneous strikes against the first three melee attackers. Additionally, the Glitterboy's parry bonus gives him a greater than 50% chance to parry those grapple-attempts.

But beyond this, there is another thing; those skelebots are striking just as wildly against the Glitterboy when he's moving as he would be against them while moving; they may be capable of moving faster than he, but when it comes down to it, they have the same disadvantages the Glitterboy does.

why parry? Simultaneous attack, point blank, boomguns anyone?

I pointed both out to lend weight to the fact that it's not as easy as it has been made out to be, regardless of situation.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Been thinking a bit about the GB's jet-assisted leap.
In the right terrain, it could be pretty handy, because he could jump over a crevice, or jump up a cliff, or whatever, leaving the skelebots scrambling to catch up.

How well do the skelebots climb? I guess even of it well they have to use both hands. GB jump onto a sheer cliff sheer vertical rise, whatever ya wanna call it, and fires the boom gun or engages the anchor system the second he strikes.

(Using brackets here because this is entirely homebrew: in the games i run, skelebots are infantry and Glitterboys are obviously power armor. I do damage on a scale, infantry does half damage to power armor and a third damage to robots etc. Robots do triple, power armor does double to infantry and so on. This eliminates much of this dicussion, but as i said it's my personal way of doing it)

Now on to climbing and terrain. The GB's leap gives it some versatility. I think the teactic wouild be to leap on top of a cliff, the blow it up from range with the boomgun when the skelebots get too far up. Then shift to higher elevation if possible.

Anyway, on flat ground, armed only with it's main weapon, I don't think it's got much of a chance against multiple, fast-moving targets.

In our group we always have k-9 robot companions for our GBs and one even has a robot horse. In Triax 2 a better version of a dog robot came out with greater speed than the slow k-9 bots, other great equipment like the Triax missile shield and some kind of kinetic hammer which are great for knocking down large creatures, adding these to GB arsenal can help in most battles. Against these Skelebots, using booster jets can help keep range and if they ever do grapple the boomgun one option is to release the anchors and fire it sending it and the bots flying backwards which may loosen the bots grip as GB and the bots tumble a few hundred feet.

Killer Cyborg wrote:Been thinking a bit about the GB's jet-assisted leap.
In the right terrain, it could be pretty handy, because he could jump over a crevice, or jump up a cliff, or whatever, leaving the skelebots scrambling to catch up.

If only the skelebots had some way of attacking from a distance. Like guns or something.

Rallan wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Been thinking a bit about the GB's jet-assisted leap.
In the right terrain, it could be pretty handy, because he could jump over a crevice, or jump up a cliff, or whatever, leaving the skelebots scrambling to catch up.

If only the skelebots had some way of attacking from a distance. Like guns or something.

Ever heard of line of sight?

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Rallan wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Been thinking a bit about the GB's jet-assisted leap.
In the right terrain, it could be pretty handy, because he could jump over a crevice, or jump up a cliff, or whatever, leaving the skelebots scrambling to catch up.

If only the skelebots had some way of attacking from a distance. Like guns or something.

Ever heard of line of sight?

Nope that's the imaginary thing that is hardly used in P&P games unless there's minis right?

Though line of sight is an issue for targeting, as soon as you fire that first mega damage shot, most of the cover is going to be gone, then it's up to optics. Though you can always shoot wild. Multiple attackers have a better chance by their higher volume of shots.

Alrik Vas wrote:Though line of sight is an issue for targeting, as soon as you fire that first mega damage shot, most of the cover is going to be gone, then it's up to optics. Though you can always shoot wild. Multiple attackers have a better chance by their higher volume of shots.

Depends partially on how much MD you're talking about, versus how much SDC.

Since I was talking about jumping up to the top of a cliff as one example, that'd leave the skelebots shooting at the cliff.
Average shot of 14 MD would probably do a lot of damage to stone, but it's not going to destroy the entire cliff in one shot, especially since cliff faces are just the face. They're solid all the way back until the terrain lowers again.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Alrik Vas wrote:Though line of sight is an issue for targeting, as soon as you fire that first mega damage shot, most of the cover is going to be gone, then it's up to optics. Though you can always shoot wild. Multiple attackers have a better chance by their higher volume of shots.

Depends partially on how much MD you're talking about, versus how much SDC.

Since I was talking about jumping up to the top of a cliff as one example, that'd leave the skelebots shooting at the cliff.
Average shot of 14 MD would probably do a lot of damage to stone, but it's not going to destroy the entire cliff in one shot, especially since cliff faces are just the face. They're solid all the way back until the terrain lowers again.

Not to mention after the first couple shots they're making additional obscurment cover as they turn that hillside into dust and and not being especially cautious or geologist can bring down some clifside on top of themselves.

Incidentally, this same disparity plays out just as well when you talk about PA vs manned robots - by the numbers, an expensive robot can generally be downed by a handful of people using a collectively cheaper assemblage of powered armor (or skelebots!). It is one of the quirks of the rules.

Dog_O_War wrote:the Glitterboy gets to make at the very minimum 3 simultaneous strikes against the first three melee attackers.

I get the impression to make an attack you need your next attack free... are you talking about doing this all in the first turn, or taking 3 turns to do it?

Tor wrote:

Dog_O_War wrote:the Glitterboy gets to make at the very minimum 3 simultaneous strikes against the first three melee attackers.

I get the impression to make an attack you need your next attack free... are you talking about doing this all in the first turn, or taking 3 turns to do it?

In the scenario described, the Glitterboy is not attacked in the first turn, so making them in that first turn is impossible.

Mack wrote:From the "Better GB Killer" topic:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Mack wrote:Skelebots are by far the best way to take out a Glitterboy. Send in a dozen or so but don't bother with ranged attacks. Just have them swarm the GB and use their robotic strength to grapple/pin him, then just disable/destroy the suit at your leisure. Sure, you will lose a few 'bots in the assault but that's a trade the CS would make any day of the week.

Pretty good strategy.
A GB can grapple... but not so much if they're outnumbered that heavily.

I might have to run some test scenarios on this one some day.

So I decided to apply a bit of math to this scenario. Here's what I came up with.

Assumptions:
- Eight Skelebots, starting at 1/4 mile away.
- While the Skelebots have a top speed of 90mph, they will evade and zig-zag as they approach, reducing their closing speed to 60mph. This means they can close the gap in a single melee round. (Yay for convenient math!)
- A 5th level Glitterboy pilot, who (after all the bonuses and penalties) needs to roll a 7 or better to hit.
- The GB has 7 attacks per melee round.
- Taking into account the missed shots and critical hits, the GB will average 78.75 MDC per attack.
- For simplicity, I gave the GB initiative.
- If 3 Skelebots can get into grappling range, I give them the win.

Details:

Spoiler:

Attack 1:
- GB shoots Skelebot 1 for 78.75MD.
- 8 Skelebots advance.
Attack 2:
- GB shoots Skelebot 1 and destroys it.
- 7 Skelebots advance.
Attack 3:
- GB shoots Skelebot 2 for 78.75MD.
- 7 Skelebots advance.
Attack 4:
- GB shoots Skelebot 2 and destroys it.
- 6 Skelebots advance.
Attack 5:
- GB shoots Skelebot 3 for 78.75MD.
- 6 Skelebots advance.
Attack 6:
- GB shoots Skelebot 3 and destroys it.
- 5 Skelebots advance.
Attack 7:
- GB shoots Skelebot 4 for 78.75MD.
- 5 Skelebots advance and arrive in melee range.

Results:
After the one round, 3 Skelebots are destroyed, 1 is damaged, and 4 are untouched. That leaves plenty to grapple with GB and eventually disable/destroy it (not a quick process). Victory to the Skelebots.

Range is definitely the Glitterboy's ally. Should the Skelebots start from a 1/2 mile away, then only a single robot would make it close enough to grapple. I'd call that a GB victory.

Using the new FASSAR-30 Skelebots (150 MDC) versus the original FASSAR-20s (100 MDC) doesn't change the outcome as both require two hits from the boomgun.

Also, if you forget the evasive zig-zag and have the Skelebots run straight at the Glitterboy, then there would be five shots fired before they get into grappling range (2 destroyed, 1 damaged, and 5 whole robots). Arriving sooner via the increased closing speed (90mph vs 60mph) outweighs strike penalty for evasion.

Closing thoughts:
So there ya go. If you find yourself to be a CS soldier with a handful of Skelebots and need to kill a lone Glitterboy, then you should get your robotic minions to within a 1/4 mile of the target before shots are fired. If you can't do that, then it's best if you wait for a better opportunity or just go home.

And if you find yourself to be a Glitterboy pilot all alone walking in the woods. First, remind yourself to brings friends on your next walk. And second, find yourself some high-ground with a nice long field of fire right quick. Terrain is your enemy.

Where do you come up with 78.5?
The GBs damage on average is ((1+2+3+4+5+6)/6)*3*10=105/ attack 5% chance of critical (or does level 5 get crit on 19+?) and 35% chance to miss. So 4 hits, 3 misses and no crits at 105 MD average per SUCCESSFUL attack. Only four skelebots make it and the next four get destroyed as the next turn starts when they engage the GB. What's required to hit roll for point blank per RUE? The first robot rolls to grapple, GB simultaneous strikes with his first attack and destroys the skelebot that jumps at him, same goes for each other one. At a quarter mile a GB has a good chance of taking out 8 FASSAR-20s maybe 10 depending on point blank rules. While the GB would be over run by the FASSAR-30s only being able to kill two at range and not being able to despose of them before they grappled with sumultanious attacks.

Ya can't take the 5% crit and call it one and the three misses and divide all the damage from the four hits into all of the attacks to come out with the 78.5MD. The hits do damage and the misses don't do anything this isn't a computer game where were trying to figure out DPS.

If an officer misses 35% of the time and there are 7 bad guys and the officer shoots 7 times all the bad guys dont each get 65% of a bullet. It is far more realistic that 4 bad guys get hit 2 are unharmed and maybe the seventh got winged, but no real damage.

Zer0 Kay wrote:

Mack wrote:From the "Better GB Killer" topic:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Mack wrote:Skelebots are by far the best way to take out a Glitterboy. Send in a dozen or so but don't bother with ranged attacks. Just have them swarm the GB and use their robotic strength to grapple/pin him, then just disable/destroy the suit at your leisure. Sure, you will lose a few 'bots in the assault but that's a trade the CS would make any day of the week.

Pretty good strategy.
A GB can grapple... but not so much if they're outnumbered that heavily.

I might have to run some test scenarios on this one some day.

So I decided to apply a bit of math to this scenario. Here's what I came up with.

Assumptions:
- Eight Skelebots, starting at 1/4 mile away.
- While the Skelebots have a top speed of 90mph, they will evade and zig-zag as they approach, reducing their closing speed to 60mph. This means they can close the gap in a single melee round. (Yay for convenient math!)
- A 5th level Glitterboy pilot, who (after all the bonuses and penalties) needs to roll a 7 or better to hit.
- The GB has 7 attacks per melee round.
- Taking into account the missed shots and critical hits, the GB will average 78.75 MDC per attack.
- For simplicity, I gave the GB initiative.
- If 3 Skelebots can get into grappling range, I give them the win.

Details:

Spoiler:

Attack 1:
- GB shoots Skelebot 1 for 78.75MD.
- 8 Skelebots advance.
Attack 2:
- GB shoots Skelebot 1 and destroys it.
- 7 Skelebots advance.
Attack 3:
- GB shoots Skelebot 2 for 78.75MD.
- 7 Skelebots advance.
Attack 4:
- GB shoots Skelebot 2 and destroys it.
- 6 Skelebots advance.
Attack 5:
- GB shoots Skelebot 3 for 78.75MD.
- 6 Skelebots advance.
Attack 6:
- GB shoots Skelebot 3 and destroys it.
- 5 Skelebots advance.
Attack 7:
- GB shoots Skelebot 4 for 78.75MD.
- 5 Skelebots advance and arrive in melee range.

Results:
After the one round, 3 Skelebots are destroyed, 1 is damaged, and 4 are untouched. That leaves plenty to grapple with GB and eventually disable/destroy it (not a quick process). Victory to the Skelebots.

Range is definitely the Glitterboy's ally. Should the Skelebots start from a 1/2 mile away, then only a single robot would make it close enough to grapple. I'd call that a GB victory.

Using the new FASSAR-30 Skelebots (150 MDC) versus the original FASSAR-20s (100 MDC) doesn't change the outcome as both require two hits from the boomgun.

Also, if you forget the evasive zig-zag and have the Skelebots run straight at the Glitterboy, then there would be five shots fired before they get into grappling range (2 destroyed, 1 damaged, and 5 whole robots). Arriving sooner via the increased closing speed (90mph vs 60mph) outweighs strike penalty for evasion.

Closing thoughts:
So there ya go. If you find yourself to be a CS soldier with a handful of Skelebots and need to kill a lone Glitterboy, then you should get your robotic minions to within a 1/4 mile of the target before shots are fired. If you can't do that, then it's best if you wait for a better opportunity or just go home.

And if you find yourself to be a Glitterboy pilot all alone walking in the woods. First, remind yourself to brings friends on your next walk. And second, find yourself some high-ground with a nice long field of fire right quick. Terrain is your enemy.

Where do you come up with 78.5?
The GBs damage on average is ((1+2+3+4+5+6)/6)*3*10=105/ attack 5% chance of critical (or does level 5 get crit on 19+?) and 35% chance to miss. So 4 hits, 3 misses and no crits at 105 MD average per SUCCESSFUL attack. Only four skelebots make it and the next four get destroyed as the next turn starts when they engage the GB. What's required to hit roll for point blank per RUE? The first robot rolls to grapple, GB simultaneous strikes with his first attack and destroys the skelebot that jumps at him, same goes for each other one. At a quarter mile a GB has a good chance of taking out 8 FASSAR-20s maybe 10 depending on point blank rules. While the GB would be over run by the FASSAR-30s only being able to kill two at range and not being able to despose of them before they grappled with sumultanious attacks.

Ya can't take the 5% crit and call it one and the three misses and divide all the damage from the four hits into all of the attacks to come out with the 78.5MD. The hits do damage and the misses don't do anything this isn't a computer game where were trying to figure out DPS.

If an officer misses 35% of the time and there are 7 bad guys and the officer shoots 7 times all the bad guys dont each get 65% of a bullet. It is far more realistic that 4 bad guys get hit 2 are unharmed and maybe the seventh got winged, but no real damage.

If the pilot is going to do Simo-attacks he is in for a world of hurt.
The first issue is that if there are more skelebots than he has APM he runs out of attacks.
The second issue is that if he MISSES then he is grappled, which if it puts him in a hold means that he automatically loses any ability to attack....so all it takes is ONE bot to NOT get destroyed by the Simo attack and its bye-bye GB.
It gets WORSE if he is trying to deal with ranged attacks. Since the Skelbots each have a full load of actions they can all just keep shooting...the GB will run out of APM fairly quickly and have to either dodge (thus removing his ability to continue fighting) or take the hits (which will whittle him away). Don't forget the 'bots can make called shots to things like the boom gun (175 MDC) or the hands (100mdc -4 to strike)

So the way I see this playing out is that the skelbots will fire as they close, return all attacks with simo-strikes of their own. And then, when they are in range begin grappling.

eliakon wrote:If the pilot is going to do Simo-attacks he is in for a world of hurt.
The first issue is that if there are more skelebots than he has APM he runs out of attacks.
The second issue is that if he MISSES then he is grappled, which if it puts him in a hold means that he automatically loses any ability to attack....so all it takes is ONE bot to NOT get destroyed by the Simo attack and its bye-bye GB.
It gets WORSE if he is trying to deal with ranged attacks. Since the Skelbots each have a full load of actions they can all just keep shooting...the GB will run out of APM fairly quickly and have to either dodge (thus removing his ability to continue fighting) or take the hits (which will whittle him away). Don't forget the 'bots can make called shots to things like the boom gun (175 MDC) or the hands (100mdc -4 to strike)

So the way I see this playing out is that the skelbots will fire as they close, return all attacks with simo-strikes of their own. And then, when they are in range begin grappling.

The bots can't make called shots; at least, not ones worth while.
Because you can't called-shot a burst.
The Glitterboy can make called shots, which would put him at one shot = one kill per Skelebot, but nobody bothered to mention that.

Basically, those skelebots would be making called shots with melee weapons, which at a couple d6 MD per hit, will take them a year and a day to do anything worth-while.

As for the Glitterboy "running out" of attacks; a Glitterboy does not "run out" he uses all of his attacks and then uses his many hundreds of MDC to weather the typically puny (in this case, puny) attacks.

Just sayin'. I mean, yeah, missing sucks, but he's not going to miss; the odds are in his favour. Even with zero bonuses, the odds are in his favour, at 65% with zero bonuses to strike, and his opponent can't dodge (and even if he could, he does so at a -10 penalty).

I mean, if we're talking chances here, the Glitterboy can make 8 shots that first round, and then make 4 called shots the second round (well, only three*) to his opponents' heads with an 85% chance to hit, with each hit resulting in a fatality.

That would only leave one Skelebot left to grapple him, and the Glitterboy still has 2 attacks left. The only reason he can't just pop this Skelebot is because he can only react to a maximum of three different attackers that turn.

cosmicfish wrote:Incidentally, this same disparity plays out just as well when you talk about PA vs manned robots - by the numbers, an expensive robot can generally be downed by a handful of people using a collectively cheaper assemblage of powered armor (or skelebots!). It is one of the quirks of the rules.

Depends entirely on the robot and PAs in question and the parameters of the fight. If the Robot isnt ambushed at "point blank" ranges and has time to employ its usually superior range, a lot of times the PA womt even survive into engagement range. We did a full break down of 4 Smiling Jack/Classic SAMs vs. a single Skullsmasher (iirc), and the Skullsmasher won handily in every scenario that didnt involve the SAMs starting inside their own weapons range and getting the drop on the Skullsmasher... And even then, it was close enough that depending on rolls, it was reasonbly possible that the Bot would still win. We ran it with Striker-SAMs too, and it was still largely in favor of the robit, though it always emerged heavily damaged.

Its also a matter of the use of certain types of war machines/units. Armor (in the style of tanks/heavy bots) is great for cutting down infantry in job lots.. Usually before the infantry even knows its under attack and from ranges that he infantry cannot reply. PA is (by and large) good for fast-attack and hunting Armor. Infantry is actually a decent counter/screen to PA. Its sorta like rock paper scissors... You utilize different tools for different things.

Dog_O_War wrote:I would also like to mention that the First long-range attack in a round is a critical,

Dog_O_War wrote:That would only leave one Skelebot left to grapple him, and the Glitterboy still has 2 attacks left. The only reason he can't just pop this Skelebot is because he can only react to a maximum of three different attackers that turn.

Both of these stuck out to me..

where is that stuff coming from?

Also, while i understand this is a thought exercise, and i like though exercises (i did that huge multipost about Skullsmasher Vs Sams way back when) it seems.. i dunno, im not going to say rigged, disingenuous i guess.

I've played a lot of Rifts games (not recently, but back when Rifts first came out and for a decade+ afterwards) - probaby upwards of 40-50 different campaigns. In maybe 8 or 9 of those games did someone play a Glitterboy.

The number of times said person didn't carry a close-range weapon for his GB? Approximately zero. All of them carried both a melee back up weapon (at least a vibrosword, sometimes more than one) and at least one ranged backup. The Wilks 447 Pulse Rifle, C-27, and L-20 were all popular choices. The insane MDC of a Glitterboy would let him weather enough attacks to blow those skelebots away pretty handily, i'd think.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

Dog_O_War wrote:I would also like to mention that the First long-range attack in a round is a critical,

Dog_O_War wrote:That would only leave one Skelebot left to grapple him, and the Glitterboy still has 2 attacks left. The only reason he can't just pop this Skelebot is because he can only react to a maximum of three different attackers that turn.

Both of these stuck out to me..

where is that stuff coming from?

Both are in the combat section of R:UE, though as I'm at work right now, I can't give you an exact page number. The three attackers part though is under the multiple combatants portion of combat; the fourth attacker can't be parried or dodged, though I'm fairly certain it reads on a situational basis; like, if you've killed one of the four attackers, then the next time you go in the round-robin, you can react to that (now third) attacker.
The long-range attacks thing is in the ranged combat part (not sure where, but it's there, and as per standard, ill-defined).

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Also, while i understand this is a thought exercise, and i like though exercises (i did that huge multipost about Skullsmasher Vs Sams way back when) it seems.. i dunno, im not going to say rigged, disingenuous i guess.

I don't think it's rigged either. This isn't a Lenwen scenario
I'm only pointing out certain factors I believe were not considered; I don't particularly want one side or the other to win, I am just fully aware of the power of the Glitterboy.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:The number of times said person didn't carry a close-range weapon for his GB? Approximately zero. All of them carried both a melee back up weapon (at least a vibrosword, sometimes more than one) and at least one ranged backup. The Wilks 447 Pulse Rifle, C-27, and L-20 were all popular choices. The insane MDC of a Glitterboy would let him weather enough attacks to blow those skelebots away pretty handily, i'd think.

Well yeah; the Glitterboy gets equipment after all.
And yeah; even at 8 skelebots, it will still take two full rounds of shooting from them with 100% accuracy to kill that Glitterboy, but the thing is, as a stand-up shooting match progresses, they experience a significant reduction in fire-power based on the fact that the Glitterboy is eliminating the number of attacks they can perform through his kills.

That said, this whole thread is about using alternate tactics for the Glitterboy's opponents; I'm really only commenting on what should be viewed as otherwise "standard" tactics for the Glitterboy here. None of this "fire the boomgun while unanchored to get out of melee or climb cliffs" junk. Standard tactics are for the Glitterboy to seek out one-hit kills where possible, but make effective shots the entire time. And since he's in powered armour, kiting an opponent who clearly prefers close-combat is a general tactic. And it's also within the Glitterboy's purview to simply weather attacks rather than try and dodge bullets; that's Juicer territory.

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:We did a full break down of 4 Smiling Jack/Classic SAMs vs. a single Skullsmasher (iirc), and the Skullsmasher won handily in every scenario that didnt involve the SAMs starting inside their own weapons range and getting the drop on the Skullsmasher... And even then, it was close enough that depending on rolls, it was reasonbly possible that the Bot would still win. We ran it with Striker-SAMs too, and it was still largely in favor of the robit, though it always emerged heavily damaged.

Not knowing what strategies you employed, I think you picked a scenario too heavily biased for my poorly-worded comment to apply. The Skullsmasher is a $74M heavy assault robot with three combatants inside, against which you sent $7.2M worth of light power armor with 4 combatants. That's exactly the kind of case where "generally" is going to take a hit!

It seems like there are a number of quirks of the rules that play in the robot's favor here. I am trying to recall if Palladium has any rules for changing orientation - a Skullsmasher should not realistically be able to rotate to engage 360 degrees of opponents in a single round and would seem to be vulnerable to flanking moves. Plus, while the PA enjoys a net +4 differential in hit probability based on the flank speeds of the two vehicles (90mph vs 300mph), the PA's don't get any relative advantage from size, despite the fact that the robot's 28'x14' front profile is roughly 10x larger than the PA's 10'x3.5' front profile - the phrase "broad side of a barn" should be playing heavily in the PA's favor!

Still, I am not sure why your scenario was so decisive. The primary weapons of the four 250 MDC SAMAS are a railgun (25MD, 4000ft) and 6 (each) mini-missiles (35MD, 1 mile), while the 990 MDC robot's primaries are a single heavy laser (35MD, 6000ft), two forearm lasers (33MD, 4000ft), 6 medium-range missiles (175MD, 80 miles), and 21 mini-missiles (35MD, 1 mile). The robot has an advantage in that it remains fully functional for almost 1000 MDC, while the offensive capability of the SAMAS drops as units are eliminated. As the more agile combatants, the PA should be choosing the engagement range (which is why I didn't mention the particle cannon), and can close in a straight line at 4620-8580 ft per round (depending on the motion of the robot):

Outside 6000ft, only the MRM's can engage, with 2 of the $100k beasties required to drop a single SAMAS (who should be spread enough to avoid one missile damaging two suits) - and I would consider this to be the only engagement range where the robot has a serious advantage, and that only last for 6 missiles.

From 5280-6000ft, the robot still has the advantage, in that it can now use a single laser weapon while the SAMAS are still unable to engage. This phase of the engagement should last for about 3 seconds (1 shot from the laser), however, even if the SAMAS is evading.

From 4000-5280ft, it is a mini-missile fight, and the two sides get roughly matched - one laser and 21 mini-missiles against 24 mini-missiles. Of note, it will take the SAMAS 1 attack to launch all 24 missiles, while the robot will require at least 6 attacks to do the same. It takes at most 5 seconds for the SAMAS to traverse this distance.

From 1400-4000 ft, it is a gun fight, and the two sides are again pretty even. Three lasers with three shooters doing a combined 101MD average per volley against four railguns with four shooters doing a combined 100MD average per volley. Within this range, the SAMAS are harder to hit and can deal out (assuming equal attacks/shooter) the same damage, which should give them a decent edge even ignoring tactics.

Inside 1400 ft... well, the only real reason to get this close (for the SAMAS) is to get one of them on the undefended back of the robot. At that point it should be able to find something to hang onto (edge of an armor plate, for example) with that PS 30 and just fire that railgun until it's dug a hole in the robot. Risky, but worthwhile.

I would be curious to see a step-by-step version of this engagement, and how many suits of a given PA it requires to take a Skullsmasher down. I think 4 should stand a decent chance, and I would think that 6 or 7 would have a decisive advantage. I also think that the faster, tougher, 28-mini-missiles-each, $2.6M Striker SAMAS would have a good chance of tearing up that Skullsmasher with just 4 units by making optimum use of that 4000-5280ft engagement range.

cosmicfish wrote:

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:We did a full break down of 4 Smiling Jack/Classic SAMs vs. a single Skullsmasher (iirc), and the Skullsmasher won handily in every scenario that didnt involve the SAMs starting inside their own weapons range and getting the drop on the Skullsmasher... And even then, it was close enough that depending on rolls, it was reasonbly possible that the Bot would still win. We ran it with Striker-SAMs too, and it was still largely in favor of the robit, though it always emerged heavily damaged.

Not knowing what strategies you employed, I think you picked a scenario too heavily biased for my poorly-worded comment to apply. The Skullsmasher is a $74M heavy assault robot with three combatants inside, against which you sent $7.2M worth of light power armor with 4 combatants. That's exactly the kind of case where "generally" is going to take a hit!

It seems like there are a number of quirks of the rules that play in the robot's favor here. I am trying to recall if Palladium has any rules for changing orientation - a Skullsmasher should not realistically be able to rotate to engage 360 degrees of opponents in a single round and would seem to be vulnerable to flanking moves.

It rotates 360 degrees at the waist. It's specifically mentioned.

Plus, while the PA enjoys a net +4 differential in hit probability based on the flank speeds of the two vehicles (90mph vs 300mph), the PA's don't get any relative advantage from size, despite the fact that the robot's 28'x14' front profile is roughly 10x larger than the PA's 10'x3.5' front profile - the phrase "broad side of a barn" should be playing heavily in the PA's favor!

Still, I am not sure why your scenario was so decisive. The primary weapons of the four 250 MDC SAMAS are a railgun (25MD, 4000ft) and 6 (each) mini-missiles (35MD, 1 mile), while the 990 MDC robot's primaries are a single heavy laser (35MD, 6000ft), two forearm lasers (33MD, 4000ft), 6 medium-range missiles (175MD, 80 miles), and 21 mini-missiles (35MD, 1 mile). The robot has an advantage in that it remains fully functional for almost 1000 MDC, while the offensive capability of the SAMAS drops as units are eliminated. As the more agile combatants, the PA should be choosing the engagement range (which is why I didn't mention the particle cannon), and can close in a straight line at 4620-8580 ft per round (depending on the motion of the robot):

Outside 6000ft, only the MRM's can engage, with 2 of the $100k beasties required to drop a single SAMAS (who should be spread enough to avoid one missile damaging two suits) - and I would consider this to be the only engagement range where the robot has a serious advantage, and that only last for 6 missiles.

The MRM's actually weren't a major factor. And your damage numbers are off. A single MRM can put paid to a SAM on a decent roll (5d6x10), but i agree it isn't likely. The major factor was the fact that mini-missiles from the SAMs were useless (the bot has enough countermissile capacity to simply nullify them) and the greater armor. The railguns on the SAMs just dont pack enough punch to bring it down before the heavier weapons on the bot can 86 the SAMs.

From 5280-6000ft, the robot still has the advantage, in that it can now use a single laser weapon while the SAMAS are still unable to engage. This phase of the engagement should last for about 3 seconds (1 shot from the laser), however, even if the SAMAS is evading.

From 4000-5280ft, it is a mini-missile fight, and the two sides get roughly matched - one laser and 21 mini-missiles against 24 mini-missiles. Of note, it will take the SAMAS 1 attack to launch all 24 missiles, while the robot will require at least 6 attacks to do the same. It takes at most 5 seconds for the SAMAS to traverse this distance.

From 1400-4000 ft, it is a gun fight, and the two sides are again pretty even. Three lasers with three shooters doing a combined 101MD average per volley against four railguns with four shooters doing a combined 100MD average per volley. Within this range, the SAMAS are harder to hit and can deal out (assuming equal attacks/shooter) the same damage, which should give them a decent edge even ignoring tactics.

Inside 1400 ft... well, the only real reason to get this close (for the SAMAS) is to get one of them on the undefended back of the robot. At that point it should be able to find something to hang onto (edge of an armor plate, for example) with that PS 30 and just fire that railgun until it's dug a hole in the robot. Risky, but worthwhile.

I would be curious to see a step-by-step version of this engagement, and how many suits of a given PA it requires to take a Skullsmasher down. I think 4 should stand a decent chance, and I would think that 6 or 7 would have a decisive advantage. I also think that the faster, tougher, 28-mini-missiles-each, $2.6M Striker SAMAS would have a good chance of tearing up that Skullsmasher with just 4 units by making optimum use of that 4000-5280ft engagement range.

Im sure the thread is still there. Im not going to re-hash it all here (dont want to hijack this thread), but if i have time later, ill dig up a link to the original breakdown.

And, again, like i said, it's about combined-arms and using tools for what they are meant for (and actually isn't dissimilar to real life). We have fast-attack vehicles now that mount anti-tank weapons that are fairly cheap (compared to a tank) that have a reasonably good chance to KO a tank (almost a 100% chance against the tanks most of our enemies use). But tanks will stil, by and large, mow infantry down in job lots and crush fortified positions. Not all tools (Giant Robots) are useful in all situations. Power Armors ARE ideal Bot-hunters in a lot of cases, and there's nothing wrong with that. That same bot, however, will absolutely obliterate infantry in job lots, and make short work of fortifications and other large threats, as well as providing interdiction capability to protect your own infantry from giant monsters/other giant robots.

Dog_O_War wrote:

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:

Dog_O_War wrote:I would also like to mention that the First long-range attack in a round is a critical,

Dog_O_War wrote:That would only leave one Skelebot left to grapple him, and the Glitterboy still has 2 attacks left. The only reason he can't just pop this Skelebot is because he can only react to a maximum of three different attackers that turn.

Both of these stuck out to me..

where is that stuff coming from?

Both are in the combat section of R:UE, though as I'm at work right now, I can't give you an exact page number. The three attackers part though is under the multiple combatants portion of combat; the fourth attacker can't be parried or dodged, though I'm fairly certain it reads on a situational basis; like, if you've killed one of the four attackers, then the next time you go in the round-robin, you can react to that (now third) attacker.
The long-range attacks thing is in the ranged combat part (not sure where, but it's there, and as per standard, ill-defined).

Yeah, if you can dig those up when you get a chance that would be great. I just took a gander through R:UE's ranged combat section (Page 360 and onward) and can find no reference to it at all, though im aware that doesn't mean anything as rules in palladium can be hidden in innocuous paragraphs nowhere near any other rules (see Triax and the NGR with rules about firing rifles one-handed hidden in the descriptive text of a single weapon no one ever uses) and i just dont know where its at...

Ill look for the three attackers thing too, while im still on my lunch break (doing last minute work on Geek Fan Expo stuff... if you're in Michigan and aren't coming, why is that? =) ), but if you can dig em up when you get a chance that would be great. I've never heard of either of those things, and much like the "new" shooting rules in RUE, it would make the game even more broken and unplayable from a balance standpoint and further invalidate entire swaths of weapons from being useful in the game. And make GB-snipers like, hella awesome. (and guys with an NE Shoulder Cannon - 2d4x10+20, auto-crit the first shot every round? yes please; that'd be a guaranteed kill on most infantry with a shot to the head, barring application of the GI-Joe rule to NPCs)

Colonel_Tetsuya wrote:Yeah, if you can dig those up when you get a chance that would be great.

RUE 342 Under Two Against One