Forums of the Megaverse®

Sorry, this should be obvious and I swear I have searched the forums for an answer.

Does transforming from Jet to Guardian or Battloid in a Veritech cost an attack? If so is it your next or from your total?

in 2E I don't recall it ever being addressed. I can see a case for it consuming an action/attack though given how long some transformations are depicted as taking, so maybe allow a wild shot if transforming for the attack.

In Macross 2 RPG though I recall that it does consume an action/attack. In 1E RT RPG it was a free action to for everyone but the Cyclone IIRC.

As for where the attack is drawn from if it consume an action, I would say from your attack/action that part of the round when it is executed. Ex. If you have five attack actions per melee round (15sec), and you transform on your 3rd attack that would be your attack/action for that cycle. It wouldn't come off at the end, and on your 4th attack of the cycle you can act normally.

Based on the show most of the Veritechs(VF-1,VHT,LOGAN,Alphas) all seem to transform pretty instantly. The Cyclone though does take a bit longer but even then in my games I did not enforce that rule.

grandmaster z0b wrote:Sorry, this should be obvious and I swear I have searched the forums for an answer.

Does transforming from Jet to Guardian or Battloid in a Veritech cost an attack? If so is it your next or from your total?

It should, IMO... as a transformation for most mecha takes anywhere from ~1.5 seconds (VF-1) to as much as five or six seconds (Alpha), during which the mecha cannot attack.

i beleive in the rules it takes 1 action to transform. which works out to a couple of seconds even at high character levels, so the rough feel of the show is preserved. the main thing is that while transforming your not really going to be doing much in the way of shooting.

grandmaster z0b wrote:Sorry, this should be obvious and I swear I have searched the forums for an answer.

Does transforming from Jet to Guardian or Battloid in a Veritech cost an attack? If so is it your next or from your total?

If your char is Max Sterling no, otherwise yes.

If you don't want it to cost you an action, i'd let them make a piloting check at -30%. If they succeeded, they transform as a free action.

No. There's never been any mention of it in any of the RP materials and even the animes make seem that the trained pilot doesn't lose an attack.

keir451 wrote:No. There's never been any mention of it in any of the RP materials and even the animes make seem that the trained pilot doesn't lose an attack.

except that it does take time to transform, several seconds in most cases (not counting the extended sequences the first time a type of mecha changes in the show) during which the pilot/mecha isn't able to do much more than travel a distance

which is pretty much the definition of a palladium attack.. a several second duration during which a person can attack or carry out an action. after all, movement is free.

grandmaster z0b wrote:Sorry, this should be obvious and I swear I have searched the forums for an answer.

Does transforming from Jet to Guardian or Battloid in a Veritech cost an attack? If so is it your next or from your total?

I would rule that it does take an action from your total. I don't enforce a loss of next action because losing an action from your total (and onto next round totals) will still lead to being entirely on the defensive and because of a small blurb under the definition of shooting wild that states that a character can still dodge and come up shooting (which doesn't make sense if they just lost their next action, at least to me).

glitterboy2098 wrote:

keir451 wrote:No. There's never been any mention of it in any of the RP materials and even the animes make seem that the trained pilot doesn't lose an attack.

except that it does take time to transform, several seconds in most cases (not counting the extended sequences the first time a type of mecha changes in the show) during which the pilot/mecha isn't able to do much more than travel a distance

which is pretty much the definition of a palladium attack.. a several second duration during which a person can attack or carry out an action. after all, movement is free.

IIRC it was once stated that the transformations took maybe one second at most, the transformations we see in the anime are most likely for visual effect not real time transformation sequences.

keir451 wrote:IIRC it was once stated that the transformations took maybe one second at most, the transformations we see in the anime are most likely for visual effect not real time transformation sequences.

Eh... while I haven't been able to find anything about the duration of the transformation in the 2E RT RPG's text, and the animation does occasionally draw transformations out for the sake of "glamour shots" that do take longer than the transformation process viewed in real time, and some sets of OSM specs do include a precise transformation time between modes. Almost all clock in at above 1.5 seconds though.

The VF-1 actually holds the fastest stated speed, with the mean transformation time being about 1.5s, the fastest being the absolute minimum transformation time, fighter-to-battroid, being 0.9 seconds, and regular transformations being under 2 seconds. The Ride Armors of MOSPEADA (RT fans call them "Cyclones") are sitting at about 2 seconds if you don't count that they need a run-up. Apart from those, it's mostly in the 4-5 seconds bracket occupied by the Legioss and TLEAD (Alpha and Beta).

Seto Kaiba wrote:

keir451 wrote:IIRC it was once stated that the transformations took maybe one second at most, the transformations we see in the anime are most likely for visual effect not real time transformation sequences.

Eh... while I haven't been able to find anything about the duration of the transformation in the 2E RT RPG's text, and the animation does occasionally draw transformations out for the sake of "glamour shots" that do take longer than the transformation process viewed in real time, and some sets of OSM specs do include a precise transformation time between modes. Almost all clock in at above 1.5 seconds though.

The VF-1 actually holds the fastest stated speed, with the mean transformation time being about 1.5s, the fastest being the absolute minimum transformation time, fighter-to-battroid, being 0.9 seconds, and regular transformations being under 2 seconds. The Ride Armors of MOSPEADA (RT fans call them "Cyclones") are sitting at about 2 seconds if you don't count that they need a run-up. Apart from those, it's mostly in the 4-5 seconds bracket occupied by the Legioss and TLEAD (Alpha and Beta).

OK. So for the most part it doesn't appear to take a full attack/action to transform most of the units with the supposed exception of the Alpha and Beta units. I say exception not to contradict, but out of curiosity as to where the info comes from. Are we looking at anime transformation times or was in one of the books or OSM? Is the "run up" for Cyclones mandatory or another anime effect? I ask as the RPG material doesn't specify so you get the implication that your can transform form a standstill.

keir451 wrote:OK. So for the most part it doesn't appear to take a full attack/action to transform most of the units with the supposed exception of the Alpha and Beta units. I say exception not to contradict, but out of curiosity as to where the info comes from. Are we looking at anime transformation times or was in one of the books or OSM?

's part of the technical write-up that's in the official stats for the original shows... the VF-1's has a bit more detail than the others, covering both automatic and manual transformations in both mode combinations. All the others have is the Armo-Fighter to Armo-Soldier mode time.

keir451 wrote:Is the "run up" for Cyclones mandatory or another anime effect? I ask as the RPG material doesn't specify so you get the implication that your can transform form a standstill.

The Armored Bikes in MOSPEADA do seem to need to be in midair (however briefly) to transform to Ride Armor mode, invariably assisted by the thruster above the rear wheel. Transforming back to bike mode from Ride Armor took even longer, because the user had to stop, kneel, extract himself from the mecha, and then pick up the handlebars to force the mecha back into its bike configuration.

Theoretically, I suppose it'd be possible to just pull a wicked wheelie and fire the thruster, but that's still going to take a second or two to pull off before you can transform. Whenever the scene doesn't call for reusing that one glamour shot that MOSPEADA used a lot, they usually just have it happen while the guilty party is offscreen... like Harmony Gold did in Shadow Chronicles.

If you're losing about a third of your melee to transformation, I'd say it's AT LEAST one attack you have to forfeit to do it, though I'd restrict it to one in the name of simple fairness, or have that transformation move count as an automatic dodge response to the next incoming attack (since transformation is commonly used in Macross as an attack-avoidance strategem).

To answer the OP. As evidenced here the answer is up to you as to whether it should or as to if you want it to take an attack or not since there is no definitive answer on that.

Seto Kaiba wrote:

keir451 wrote:OK. So for the most part it doesn't appear to take a full attack/action to transform most of the units with the supposed exception of the Alpha and Beta units. I say exception not to contradict, but out of curiosity as to where the info comes from. Are we looking at anime transformation times or was in one of the books or OSM?

's part of the technical write-up that's in the official stats for the original shows... the VF-1's has a bit more detail than the others, covering both automatic and manual transformations in both mode combinations. All the others have is the Armo-Fighter to Armo-Soldier mode time.

keir451 wrote:Is the "run up" for Cyclones mandatory or another anime effect? I ask as the RPG material doesn't specify so you get the implication that your can transform form a standstill.

The Armored Bikes in MOSPEADA do seem to need to be in midair (however briefly) to transform to Ride Armor mode, invariably assisted by the thruster above the rear wheel. Transforming back to bike mode from Ride Armor took even longer, because the user had to stop, kneel, extract himself from the mecha, and then pick up the handlebars to force the mecha back into its bike configuration.

Theoretically, I suppose it'd be possible to just pull a wicked wheelie and fire the thruster, but that's still going to take a second or two to pull off before you can transform. Whenever the scene doesn't call for reusing that one glamour shot that MOSPEADA used a lot, they usually just have it happen while the guilty party is offscreen... like Harmony Gold did in Shadow Chronicles.

If you're losing about a third of your melee to transformation, I'd say it's AT LEAST one attack you have to forfeit to do it, though I'd restrict it to one in the name of simple fairness, or have that transformation move count as an automatic dodge response to the next incoming attack (since transformation is commonly used in Macross as an attack-avoidance strategem).

Fair 'nough. I can certainly see that the Cyclones, at the very least, take longer to transform then anyhting else. I think, for me, it was partly that my GMs of past and relative present never bothered with that particular detail. Oh well. Live and learn!

keir451 wrote:Fair 'nough. I can certainly see that the Cyclones, at the very least, take longer to transform then anyhting else. I think, for me, it was partly that my GMs of past and relative present never bothered with that particular detail. Oh well. Live and learn!

Well, to be fair... neither the Robotech setting nor the Palladium system offer much in the way of very profound reasons to switch modes other than flight speed and maybe needing to pick something up with the mecha's hands.

Macross's setting, at least, offers a decent set of reasons to switch modes and some relevant bonuses and penalties, which gives a little more incentive to pay attention to transformation...