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They are also the ones who facilitate all enhancements made to
1) Bio-Tech weapons
2) Biotics
3) War Mounts
4) Wing Packs
5) Host Armors

When
1) a Packmaster is ready to enhance his Gorehounds
2) a Dreadguard has Bio-E to spend on her Host Armor

They go see a Geneticist to schedule the upgrades.

Although Gorehounds are not explicitly mentioned in the 5 examples of 'facilitate all enchancements', perhaps they fall in with War Mounts? It's all souped-up animals after all...

Anyway, Geneticists DO get a huge amount of Bio-E every level of experience... but not enough for me to think that only a minority of Geneticists could account for all the Bio-E being spent on upgrades (not to mention base equipment) for all the different OCCs out there.

The best way to calculate this may be to go based on average amounts. Just to get an idea.

They get an average of 45 bio-E each level to give away.

Now let's look at the other classes who utterly rely on them... and let's just look at their per-level upgrades. Let's ignore the starting costs (or replace-after-destruction costs) because they facilitate all 'enhancements' so it could be that Gene Pools provide the Bio-E for the initial items (even the ones who get extra bio-E to begin with)

1) Archangels cost 12 Bio-E each level
2) Biotics seldom exceed an average of 41.5 every 3 levels, or 13.93
3) Dreadguards cost an average of 25 Bio-E each level
4) Outriders cost an average of 21 Bio-E each level (12+9)
5) Packmasters cost an average of 25.5 Bio-E each level (that's assuming they have to split this as a pool amongst their Hounds and it isn't per-hound)
6) Roughnecks cost an average of 11 Bio-E each level.

I'm not sure what the ratios are supposed to be, but it seems like places would need to be chock-full of Geneticists to support these populations, unless Geneticists level-up at a faster rate than other OCCs to compensate (and I'm not sure why they would, if anything they seem like the less-adventurous type who would level slower).

The 45avg Geneticists can support 2 big guys (an Outrider and either a Packmaster or a Dreadguard), or perhaps instead support the upgrades of 4 Roughnecks (costing 44) or 3 Archangels (36). They can't actually support 2 Packmasters or 2 Dreadguards though, the cost is too high. They could support a trio of Biotics' moderate upgrades (42) too.

Things would work out just fine if it Geneticists were 50% of the population of these 7 Bio-E related OCCs but that really would put the culture in an interesting perspective.

About the only saving-skew I an think to put on this is relying on the 'reduction on Bio-E cost' research technique they can use. This would allow us to lower the amount of Geneticists required to keep up with all the improvements that OCCs demand.

Another gruesome possibility: perhaps there is never a high net amount of Geneticists... but rather a large turnover. It's easier to level-up at lower levels anyway, right? High-level Geneticists would not produce as much Bio-E per unit of time since it would take longer and longer periods to reach a new level and get new Bio-E...

Perhaps Geneticists are prone to killing themselves (depression over getting mutated into ugly forms by being in Gene Pools) or being killed by angry impatient warlords (YOU ARE GETTING SLOW, I WILL REPLACE YOU WITH NEW BLOOD) or they get eaten as FUEL by carnivorous suits...

This makes me wonder... if there was such a turnover of Geneticists... it might explain why there might not be a world flooded with Homunculi. Although lots of Geneticists cycle through THE WHEEL to produce the Bio-E needed, most may commit suicide or get killed by brutal warlords before they can reach level 5 to be able to begin nurturing a Homunculus.

I think you are mistaking the Bio-E points they can give as gifts with the Bio-E these other OCCs earn as they level up. They are two different things as the Bio-E that the Geneticists give others is in addition to that which the OCCs earns each level.

The Bio-E that a Dreadguard (for example) gets at each level is from his own experience as he learns to better endure the physical and mental stress that using bio-tech places on him... allowing him to further enhance his Host Armor with new enhancements.

Geneticists on the other hand, through their experimentation and knowledge of bio-tech have learned methods to further tweek various bio-tech creations... effectively allowing them to enhance it beyond what would normally be possible. This is reflected in the pool of Bio-E points they can give out to others as "gifts". It should be noted that in the "Example of Host Armor Creation" in the core book (pg 108) that Librarians and Engineers can also give these "gifts" of additional Bio-E points (though both seem to rarely do so).

For an in-game explanation, think of it like this... the Geneticist (or Librarian or Engineer) has developed a new genetic code for a given modification(s) that effectively reduces the overall cost of adding it to a given piece of bio-tech. Most of the time this is an experimental design or one that can only be performed on a specific character's piece of bio-tech.

Geneticists may help facilitate the addition of new features into bio-tech devices and creatures, but they are not the "source" of the Bio-E that one gains at each level (any more than a Librarian or an Engineer is)... the source of that is the character themselves as they learn to better withstand the rigors of using bio-tech. Remember, the Bio-E points one gets is based on the character's own PE, ME and level.

i think you're misunderstanding.

you know how most classes have a "you can get extra Bio-E as a reward from various people" clause somewhere in them (frequently including a notation that it requires something exceptional)? add geneticists to the list of people who can give you bio-e.

that's the kind of resource the geneticist gets. it's a bargaining chip, their ability to offer extra bio-e points, in exchange for various favours and such.

the regular upgrades don't come from the geneticist's special allotment. it comes from the other class's allotments. the geneticist can grant *extra* bio-e to people that earn their favour.

The geneticist clas was tweaked and submitted with one of our latest books "Splicers: Genetic Expressions" and some of these questions, including the nature of bio-e and the enhanncement processes are discussed. The previous two responses hit the nail on the head.

1) Gorehounds are a subset of War Mounts.
2) The extra Bio-E that the Geneticist gets is for them to give away as they see fit. This is spearate from the Bio-E that the Genepool and the Engineers use to manipulate the genetic code of other creatures.
3) Geneticists are under the protectection and serve at the pleasure of the Engineer. A warlord coming in and threatening and killing an Geneticist would be a bad move.
4) Geneticists would generally be a rarity. Maybe one for every 50 of the Splicers combat classes.

I think I'm having trouble understanding how Bio-E caps work here.

We are initially told in Splicers that the ME/PE/level limit how much Bio-E you can handle in a suit. Otherwise it over-taxes your mind...

So I don't really understand how it is that people can just gift you Bio-E in addition to that. Shouldn't there be some kind of focus or sanity penalty for exceeding limits like that?

I mean... in theory there is no cap at all if people can just gift, it's basically up to the GM when it becomes available since it's an NPC things unless you have say, a group of 9 generous Geneticists PCs and 1 lucky Biotic/Dreadguard.

The term "Gifting" Bio-E is a bit of a misnomer, in that while they are adding to the available Bio-E points one has from a game mechanic standpoint, but in reality they are more or less offering an enhancement at a reduced cost (reduced by the amount of Bio-E they are "gifting"). Maybe they have worked out a new genetic code that allows the implementation of the enhancement easier than it normally would be... or are taking advantage of a character's unique equipment to do something similar. Chances are that what they are adding is an experimental prototype (or the genetic equivalent), and a one shot-deal that probably can only be done on that character's equipment.

Think of it like a car engine... and you've been carefully tweeking it so that it gets a slightly better performance, and thus requires a little less fuel to get you from point A to point B, saving you some money. Those same modifications that work with your car probably won't work with your neighbor's truck or your sister's mini-van... or even your son's motorcycle... because their engines are very different from the one in your car. Even if you found another car exactly like yours, the wear and tear the two have had over the years will probably cause the modifications you made to fail in that other car.

The same is true with bio-tech... each has a unique genetic code... even the mass produced items will have slight differences (not enough to affect the actual game mechanics though). So while two Dreadguards, both with similar armors (say both omnivorous), may not be able to get the same enhancement at the same cost because of the different genetic structure of their host armors (as different in DNA as the two Dreadguards are). A Geneticist can "gift" one with some Bio-E, reducing the cost of an expensive enhancement, while the other has to wait until he builds up enough Bio-E to get the same enhancement. Later on, the same Geneticist might be able to "gift" the other with Bio-E that allows him to purchase more of a given enhancement (say mini-rocket pods) than the first one can at that time.

Exactly how the Bio-E is spent is up to the player, as that is game mechanics. Story wise, it is likely because of new genetic strands that allows those enhancements to be added at a slightly cheaper cost in addition to the unique genetic code of the bio-tech being modified that allows that enhancement to be added at that reduced cost (reduced by the amount of Bio-E the character was "gifted" with).

Tor wrote:I think I'm having trouble understanding how Bio-E caps work here.

We are initially told in Splicers that the ME/PE/level limit how much Bio-E you can handle in a suit. Otherwise it over-taxes your mind...

So I don't really understand how it is that people can just gift you Bio-E in addition to that. Shouldn't there be some kind of focus or sanity penalty for exceeding limits like that?

I mean... in theory there is no cap at all if people can just gift, it's basically up to the GM when it becomes available since it's an NPC things unless you have say, a group of 9 generous Geneticists PCs and 1 lucky Biotic/Dreadguard.

Its a difference in the definition of Bio-E meaning Bio-Energy and Bio-E meaning Bio-Enhancement, both terms used in the main Splicers book. This has been thoroughly discussed in part of Genetic Expressions.

Whether Energy or Enhancement, the part in question I mean is page 76.

Host Armor generates enormous stress on the character.
The Host Armor taxes the character's Physical Endurance (PE)
and strains the nervous system as well as the mind (ME)
This places a limit on the amount of Bio-E and physical change one can make on the Host Armor that is manageable for the human pilot who must wear and operate it.
As time goes on the pilot becomes hardened to the stress and can handle more enhancements (gains more Bio-E as one goes up in level) but even then the amount is limited.

The treatment of Bio-E in the books elsewhere appears to conflict with this.

I get how ME+PE covers the baseline endurance, while the experience level covers the 'becomes hardened' thing. I don't really get how the non-endurance non-LVL dice that Dreadguard get in addition as a base works into this though... I guess it could just be seen as an OCC bonus?

It seems to me like there should be 2 numbers: the maximum Bio-E your character can handle, and the actual Bio-E built into your suit.

A high-level Dreadguard with all kinds of crazy upgrades (let's say he rolls perfect and gets 400 extra Bio-E by level 10) whose armor gets destroyed would be capable of dealing with massive Bio-E in the armor, but the new low-tier armor he might get as a replacement would be nowhere near his capacity to manage.

I can see how gifts from Geneticists (perhaps as a reward at behest of a Warlord they work for) could help, say, to bring a new replacement cruddy-armor back up to speed, but I don't see how it would allow someone to become able to handle a higher-BioE armor when their ME and PE and level should be the limit.

Perhaps in estimating the limits, we should use the maximum possible roll as the limitation cap, and then the actual-roll is how much they actually receive, and then gifts can bring people up to the cap but not beyond it?

Like in the case of Dreadguard, however low they roll, they could not upgrade beyond a total of ME+PE+180+LVL*40 ?

Okay... I think my explanations above might have been a little too confusing.

Let's put it in game terms. For example, say a Dreadguard wanted to put an Omega Blaster into his Host Armor. The Omega Blaster has a Bio-E cost of 80 points, and at the moment he has 40 Bio-E saved up from leveling up. At his next level-up, he only manages to gain an additional 30 Bio-E points, bringing his total to 70 Bio-E stocked up... not quite enough to get that Omega-Blaster he wants to add to his armor. However, a Geneticist overhears the Dreadguard's desire to add an Omega Blaster to his Host Armor and offers him a proposition, if the Dreadguard undertakes a mission for the Geneticist to get organic samples from a Nature Preserve, the Geneticist will give the Dreadguard an experimental gene sequence that will give him that Omega Blaster (effectively "gifting" the Dreadguard with the additional 10 Bio-E he needs to get the Blaster).

Mechanically, he pays the full price of 80 Bio-E to get the Omega Blaster... even though he only had 70 Bio-E worth of physical and mental resistance to work with. Thanks to the Geneticist's tinkering with DNA sequences, he was able to provide that 10 extra Bio-E without taxing the Dreadguard's mental and physical endurance past their limits.

Consider the Bio-E "gifts" of Geneticists, Librarians and Engineers as more of a Discount on the cost of new enhancements... allowing a Splicer to get additional improvements to their gear without surpassing their normal limits. These are likely experimental gene sequences that may only work because of the unique nature of the bio-tech being enhanced.

In the above example, it is possible that the Geneticist has a Homunculi with a similar metabolism to the Dreadguard's Host Armor and had recently experimented with giving the Homunculi an Omega Blaster modification... which lead to a new gene sequence that made the biological cost of adding the Blaster a little cheaper... at least if the Geneticist adds the Blaster. Of course, he doesn't know if it will actually work as well on a proper Host Armor, but then that is why he is willing to make a deal with the Dreadguard... he gets to try out a new gene sequence on an actual Host Armor, and if it works, the Dreadguard gets the Omega Blaster he desires sooner than he normally would with a more proven gene sequence that, at his current level, would tax his mental and physical endurance beyond their limits.

yeah, it's mechanically represented as giving bonus bio-e points...

but as an in-game thing, it's basically the geneticist going in and doing some special optimization for you. have you ever heard of the 80/20 rule? (aka a bunch of other things)

basically, the idea is that 80% of the "effect" comes from 20% of the "cause"... so, for example, your host armour *could* be better optimized, but the engineers, geneticists, librarians, etc only have so much time to design the equipment for everyone in the great house. they could improve it... but it takes a whole lot more effort to get a comparatively small amount of benefit. like, quintuple the amount of time to plan it out, for those that have the skills.

the genetecist's ability to "gift" bio-e essentially represents them spending the time to squeeze that extra little bit out of whatever they're improving.

likewise with the others that can "gift" bio-e. (well, for some people it's more likely that they have the ability to order someone else to take the time - for example, the warlord can probably grant you some bonus bio-e by enlisting the help of a geneticist, librarian, or engineer - although for a librarian, he may very well have to promise something else, like authorizing the use of a crack team of dreadguards to harvest a tissue sample that he normally wouldn't want to risk collecting).

I don't understand what you mean about discounts here. According to Rifter 50, ALL the enhancements come from Geneticists, you can't upgrade in any other way, far as I understand...

Or does it say somewhere that you can just venture into the wilderness and spontaneously evolve upgrades and new weapons and stuff without help? I thought a 'return to base' process is needed to spend the Bio-E when you gain a new XP level...

The mechanism for discounted upgrades is also explained, but that's for lowering the Bio-E the Geneticist pays to give the upgrade.

The problem still exists that it's worded as if there is an endurance (mental and physical) limit on interacting with a sum of Bio-E (capping it) which gets an experience level-based-boost (randomized) and a lump sum boost (also randomized) plus a bonus from Metabolism (which could be interpreted as lessening the stress on endurance to varying degrees based on how close it is to your natural metabolism)

If the only way to get upgrades (per rifter 50) is geneticists, then they are how you get to spend your per-level additions anyway (and it seems the Geneticist has to pay for this from their pool? or see below) within the confines of your endurance capacity. So additional gifts on top of the per-level additions (via Warlord or Librarian generosity) would not be bypassing those endurance limits.

Unless... perhaps the way it works is that Geneticists do all the upgrading, but the Bio-E can either come from themself (as a gift) or the Bio-E can come from the person (the ME/PE and basic Bio-E allocation from OCC) or the inherent energy of host armor (metabolism bonus) or the subsequent Bio-E the host-armor has built up through interacting with the pilot (the per-level Bio-E gains which do not carry over to replacement armor if it is destroyed)

Tor wrote: I don't understand what you mean about discounts here. According to Rifter 50, ALL the enhancements come from Geneticists, you can't upgrade in any other way, far as I understand...

All the enhancements come from the Engineer and the Genepool. The geneticist is the assistant. They help the common person commune with an extrememly alien supernatural creature.

Tor wrote: Or does it say somewhere that you can just venture into the wilderness and spontaneously evolve upgrades and new weapons and stuff without help? I thought a 'return to base' process is needed to spend the Bio-E when you gain a new XP level...

You do need to return to base unless for some reason the specific enhancement says otherwise.

Tor wrote: The mechanism for discounted upgrades is also explained, but that's for lowering the Bio-E the Geneticist pays to give the upgrade.

True. The gifted amount that the Geneticist has can effectively be explained as a manipulation of the person or creture to be able to withstand more physical and mental stress of Bio-Technology. Again, more of this is explained in the Genetic Expressions manuscript.

Tor wrote: The problem still exists that it's worded as if there is an endurance (mental and physical) limit on interacting with a sum of Bio-E (capping it) which gets an experience level-based-boost (randomized) and a lump sum boost (also randomized) plus a bonus from Metabolism (which could be interpreted as lessening the stress on endurance to varying degrees based on how close it is to your natural metabolism)

Bio-Energy and Bio-Enhancement points are different names that use the same abreviation and are effectively interchangeable on a 1 to 1 ratio. So, the Geneticist can gift bio-e to someone, and that may take the form of additional resources that the receiving character didn't have access to, or additional manipulation so the character can handle more radical genetic maipulation.

Tor wrote: If the only way to get upgrades (per rifter 50) is geneticists

It's not.

Tor wrote:Unless... perhaps the way it works is that Geneticists do all the upgrading, but the Bio-E can either come from themself (as a gift) or the Bio-E can come from the person (the ME/PE and basic Bio-E allocation from OCC) or the inherent energy of host armor (metabolism bonus) or the subsequent Bio-E the host-armor has built up through interacting with the pilot (the per-level Bio-E gains which do not carry over to replacement armor if it is destroyed)

Kind of this. Bio-Energy can come from a variety of sources.

The moral of this story is that vagueness in the text allows me to write more books...

edit: forgot to close quote tags

The Galactus Kid wrote:All the enhancements come from the Engineer and the Genepool. The geneticist is the assistant. They help the common person commune with an extrememly alien supernatural creature.

I believe you may be right, and I think I understand where I erred in misreading:

Rifter 50 wrote:They are also the ones who facilitate all enhancements made to
1) Bio-Tech weapons
2) Biotics
3) War Mounts
4) Wing Packs
5) Host Armors

I took at passing glance the verb -facilitate- to mean -exclusively do- which upon a closer look I realize is wrong, faciliators help to make things happen, they grease the wheels, act as middle-men. If it were them exclusively who did these things then it would say something like -the ones who make all enhancements-.

This realization leaves me confused about what exactly they DO actually do though. I assume they at least perform the enhancements on their Homunculi...

So basically they can gift Bio-E to supplement the Bio-E naturally generated by endurance and OCC and level-up and metabolism... but the Bio-E does not actually make anything until the Host Armor is taken to an Engineer.

Perhaps what they can do on their own without an Engineer using their Bio-E for the benefit of others would be those tiny damage-range-accuracy tweaks...

But it mentions that a Geneticist can produce the Mega enhancement in an upgrade on page 82 under Decreasing Cost... and it does not sound as if an Engineer is involved there... now wondering if that category might be unique since it does not create anything new, just enhance existing. Which makes me wonder if other upgrades for already-Engineered weapons could be done exclusively by a Geneticist. Or should we assume the Mega enhancement does require an Engineer in spite of them not being mentioned as involved in the Decreasing Cost example.

No enhancement is exclusively done by the geneticist. They can pull strings call in favors with the gene pool and engineer that the work with in order to get some perks for those they deem worth it.

so when it says "Geneticists receive (Bio-E per level) to spend on experimenting with and upgrading the features of their Homunculi." it means that they need Engineer/Pool help to do it?

What about...

Once a Homunculi has a certain enhancement
the Geneticist can tinker with its genetic code
Engineers and Librarians are the real originators of Bio-Tech
Geneticists are always looking to improve it.

Perhaps the distinction here is between the verb 'enhance' versus 'tinker'.

Enhancements cover the standard stuff from the main book while the 'Tinkering' sounds like something a Geneticist can do on their own without help from an Engineer/Pool

Under the IWC Tinker ability it says "Geneticists can increase the range, accuracy or damage of existing Bio-Weapons." not "Geneticists, with the help of Engineers linked to a Gene Pool" which is why I figured they didn't need the help at least for this.

When it says "the Geneticist can produce an equivalent enhancement that costs less." it makes me think they're producing the enhancement alone, since it didn't say "the Geneticist with an Engineer-linked-to-a-Gene-Pool"

So, the tinkering and slight manipulation of bio-enhancements and organisms can be thought of as a person messing around with an engine in his garage. He might add a different air filter or tweak the fuel injection system. And although he may find out that if he re-machines the valves and pistons he could make a more efficient engine, he just doesn't have the capability to do that in his workshop.

So, the Geneticist is manipulating the genetic code of the Humuculi and testing, but all changes in the game require the Genepool to breakdown and rewrite the genetic code. He can say "if we tweak this or modify this, then the humucli will work better" and gets priority to make his enhancements from simply having access to the Genepool that others don't readily have. Then, once something is discovered through gameplay and story development (the remachining of the pistons) the Genepool can start making better enhancements (more efficient engines).

If we do ever get stats for Engineers, the Gene-Pools they link to, or Librarians, perhaps that could clarify questions about the manufacturing infrastructure and stuff. It`s hard to know the limits of how fast communities can grow without knowing their engines.

I guess the only thing I am still not sure about is the whole researching-to-discount-cost process that is going on. If you can pass down the efficiency to your whole clan then inevitably EVERY upgrade would only cost 10. If the machine does not hurry up, humans will be way more powerful in a few decades.

Just not sure I understand the step-by-step of how a feature goes on a homunculus (paid for) and then gets paid for a second time when a Geneticist is researching to make it cheaper... and then the effect of having made it cheaper afterward... like if that applies only if you are going to install that feature on a second or third Homunculus or if it also applies to non-Homunculi things like weapons, living armor, host armor, etc.