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My GM has banned my shifter (lv4) from summoning. He says its to hard to control and short of fiat saying my demon/monster/ect. Wins its battle of wills via fiat hes warning me not to try it. The one and only thing I summoned was a brodkil.
I know him well and know hes not going to budge. So what should I ask for to make up for my basicly cripled shifter? More spells? More ppe? Rune weapon? This came about for my stated intension to summon a fire elemental.
Thoughts.

Zamion138 wrote:My GM has banned my shifter (lv4) from summoning. He says its to hard to control and short of fiat saying my demon/monster/ect. Wins its battle of wills via fiat hes warning me not to try it. The one and only thing I summoned was a brodkil.
I know him well and know hes not going to budge. So what should I ask for to make up for my basicly cripled shifter? More spells? More ppe? Rune weapon? This came about for my stated intension to summon a fire elemental.
Thoughts.

Why did he allow the Shifter in the first place? It sounds like you would have been better off playing a Ley Line Rifter or a Vanguard Translocator.

I dont think he relized they could summon he normal gm's HU, Path finder, and iron kingdoms...so he knows megaversal stuff frrom HU but I think he just skimmed the class figuring the mainbook wouldnt be to powerfull.
Id reather not make a new char I kinda like this guy.

So you can't win a battle of wills when you summon using their special ability, or you can't summon and control any creature, regardless if it's from a spell or the special ability? Honestly this sounds quite lame to not allow the shifter to have access to their main ability.

The Ley Line Rifter has an intersting ability that may be applicable to give to the Shifter in place of the summon ability. Alternatively you could barter with the GM for more spells, or spells from a school not normally available (such as Necromancy or Temporal Magic). Our Rifts GM at one point considered replacing the Shifter's ability to summon with the Super Powers from Armageddon Unlimited that allow the summoning of creatures - that may be another way to work this in.

I can still spell summon, just not the occ class feat with battle of wills, im thinking of asking for like 5 spells over lv10 and maybe a bump in PPE. Like basicly the bond with a god of knowledge but with out being beholden to a god

I've never really bothered with summoning when I've played a shifter.

Zamion138 wrote:My GM has banned my shifter (lv4) from summoning. He says its to hard to control and short of fiat saying my demon/monster/etc. Wins its battle of wills via fiat he's warning me not to try it. The one and only thing I summoned was a brodkil.
I know him well and know he's not going to budge. So what should I ask for to make up for my basically crippled shifter? More spells? More ppe? Rune weapon? This came about for my stated intension to summon a fire elemental.
Thoughts.

Get a familiar for your char. there are rules in the Through the glass darkly for modifying/improving your familiar. There is also a rifter article that expands on this idea. I think it is in the teens somewhere.

And not some demon familiar, just a normal familiar. With maybe some improvments.

Killer Cyborg wrote:I've never really bothered with summoning when I've played a shifter.

What about the pacts or famliars?
To me the summoning or the pacts are what set the apart from leyline walkers.....that and cheaper Diminsional travels

Zamion138 wrote:I dont think he relized they could summon he normal gm's HU, Path finder, and iron kingdoms...so he knows megaversal stuff frrom HU but I think he just skimmed the class figuring the mainbook wouldnt be to powerfull.
Id reather not make a new char I kinda like this guy.

Well unless the GM gives you something to make up for neutering your Shifter, you have as I see it the choices of either playing the neutered shifter, make a new character, or freezing your Shifter class and starting a new OCC.

Zamion138 wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:I've never really bothered with summoning when I've played a shifter.

What about the pacts or famliars?
To me the summoning or the pacts are what set the apart from leyline walkers.....that and cheaper Diminsional travels

I've occasionally dealt with pacts, but never bothered with familiars.
In Rifts, familiars seem WAY too fragile.

With the pacts... the power boost is nice, but I don't like being the effective servant of an unknown (and probably evil) power.

For me, it's always been about the dimensional travel. The ability to Rift home if you're stranded somewhere is a NICE way out of a lot of jams, and my Shifters have always been more about exploring rifts than in summoning minions and such.

Killer Cyborg wrote:I've never really bothered with summoning when I've played a shifter.

Your character sounds like some kind of monk.

IRL I think 99% of shifters would have summoned a Succubi or similar temptress at least once.

Alistair Dunscon is the mascot of this trope, has one sitting by his throne.

Tor wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:I've never really bothered with summoning when I've played a shifter.

Your character sounds like some kind of monk.

IRL I think 99% of shifters would have summoned a Succubi or similar temptress at least once.

You know, I don't think that actually ever even occurred to me to do in Rifts.
I guess part of it is the True From of the Succubi in Palladium's games.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Tor wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:I've never really bothered with summoning when I've played a shifter.

Your character sounds like some kind of monk.

IRL I think 99% of shifters would have summoned a Succubi or similar temptress at least once.

You know, I don't think that actually ever even occurred to me to do in Rifts.
I guess part of it is the True From of the Succubi in Palladium's games.

There are two 'succubus' in PB. The Demonic one's form is comely in appearance. Then there is the Dar'ota, also called a succubus, which is fugly. I think the Dar'pta comes from BtS.

We're all yucky on the inside anyway, your pretty non-Dar'ota made won't look good if a Fleshsculptor casts that skinning spell.

Or is the bit about them trying to eat you? Just get a strong healing rate and let the Su/In cubus tire themselves out with all that chewing.

Just a combination of morals, I guess.

Zamion138 wrote:My GM has banned my shifter (lv4) from summoning. He says its to hard to control and short of fiat saying my demon/monster/ect. Wins its battle of wills via fiat hes warning me not to try it. The one and only thing I summoned was a brodkil.
I know him well and know hes not going to budge. So what should I ask for to make up for my basicly cripled shifter? More spells? More ppe? Rune weapon? This came about for my stated intension to summon a fire elemental.
Thoughts.

Maybe you should work with him to come up with a house ruled version of the summoning ability that isn't "hard to control" from his POV. So basically find out what is "hard to control" and work with him to create a fix.

Is it management of the NPC summoned creature? Most of the day-day stuff I would think the player could handle, with some input from the GM/him if something doesn't "fit" with the creature. Then again to avoid "meta" aspect of controlling everyone on your "team", the creature could be made a secondary PC for another player to handle.

Is it the battle of wills (x5 D20 rolls)? That could be done by rolling 5D20s at once (either from him, or have everyone contribute D20s to get the number and roll since the Shifter doesn't get a roll, as the shifter basically sets the difficulty of the will save).

I don't think I've ever used the Shifter summoning ability to summon anything.

--flatline

Killer Cyborg wrote:Just a combination of morals, I guess.

Your morals prevent you from summoning it because of its True Form? Getting confused about this.

Tor wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:Just a combination of morals, I guess.

Your morals prevent you from summoning it because of its True Form? Getting confused about this.

Apparently.

flatline wrote:I don't think I've ever used the Shifter summoning ability to summon anything.

--flatline

Same here, but the GM and I are trying to compile a list of creatures of light, or at least neutral that he may start forming 'pact' agreement with.

KC I was hoping you might explain how such a stance is moral.

How is it moral to detest something ugly morphed into something beautiful?

I mean, if it was about their PERSONALITY (ie being evil blood-suckers who want to murder you) then I could get that, but that's not their 'form'.

Tor wrote:KC I was hoping you might explain how such a stance is moral.

How is it moral to detest something ugly morphed into something beautiful?

I mean, if it was about their PERSONALITY (ie being evil blood-suckers who want to murder you) then I could get that, but that's not their 'form'.

You've moved into a different conversation than the one we were in, so I've moved on.

This is still about why you say you do not bother with summons

Tor wrote:This is still about why you say you do not bother with summons

Getting him to argue with you over the morality of forcing a summoned demon to have sex with its summoner really seems counter productive to the thread. I read a book when I get that bored...

I didn't say sex, could just have the succubus be your maid or dance for you. All that can be done while keeping them safely cordoned off by protection circle barriers. Sex is dangerous, if they win a battle of wills (and the rules on how often they can try that are a bit less clear for Shifters than they are for summoners) and you're SDC, insta-death basically.

The issue here is not the morality of forcing your summons to do sex (what, forcing them into slave labour or into dangerous battle is better?) but rather, something to do with the 'True Form' which was not clarified.

Not seeing the point of playing a Shifter if you can't actually play it as a Shifter but instead something of a neutered mage of sorts. If you can't play the actual OCC not much point to it, like a power armor pilot that never gets to pilot power armor.

Nightmask wrote:Not seeing the point of playing a Shifter if you can't actually play it as a Shifter but instead something of a neutered mage of sorts. If you can't play the actual OCC not much point to it, like a power armor pilot that never gets to pilot power armor.

I never saw their summoning ability as all that appealing. The additional logistics required by the care and feeding of minions doesn't appeal to me in the long run. And in the short run, Summon Lesser Beings is usually good enough.

--flatline

flatline wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Not seeing the point of playing a Shifter if you can't actually play it as a Shifter but instead something of a neutered mage of sorts. If you can't play the actual OCC not much point to it, like a power armor pilot that never gets to pilot power armor.

I never saw their summoning ability as all that appealing. The additional logistics required by the care and feeding of minions doesn't appeal to me in the long run. And in the short run, Summon Lesser Beings is usually good enough.

--flatline

Others though do find it appealing, and it should be up to the player if they decide not to use a feature of a class rather than the GM denying it to them particularly if he's not doing so with anyone else's characters.

Nightmask wrote:

flatline wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Not seeing the point of playing a Shifter if you can't actually play it as a Shifter but instead something of a neutered mage of sorts. If you can't play the actual OCC not much point to it, like a power armor pilot that never gets to pilot power armor.

I never saw their summoning ability as all that appealing. The additional logistics required by the care and feeding of minions doesn't appeal to me in the long run. And in the short run, Summon Lesser Beings is usually good enough.

--flatline

Others though do find it appealing, and it should be up to the player if they decide not to use a feature of a class rather than the GM denying it to them particularly if he's not doing so with anyone else's characters.

It's all about setting expectations. The GM gets to choose what's in his game, but if he's nerfing an OCC, then that needs to be clearly communicated to the players before the players commit to their characters.

--flatline

flatline wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Not seeing the point of playing a Shifter if you can't actually play it as a Shifter but instead something of a neutered mage of sorts. If you can't play the actual OCC not much point to it, like a power armor pilot that never gets to pilot power armor.

I never saw their summoning ability as all that appealing. The additional logistics required by the care and feeding of minions doesn't appeal to me in the long run. And in the short run, Summon Lesser Beings is usually good enough.

--flatline

Pretty much
For me, it's more about opening rifts than about summoning stuff.

flatline wrote:

Nightmask wrote:

flatline wrote:

Nightmask wrote:Not seeing the point of playing a Shifter if you can't actually play it as a Shifter but instead something of a neutered mage of sorts. If you can't play the actual OCC not much point to it, like a power armor pilot that never gets to pilot power armor.

I never saw their summoning ability as all that appealing. The additional logistics required by the care and feeding of minions doesn't appeal to me in the long run. And in the short run, Summon Lesser Beings is usually good enough.

--flatline

Others though do find it appealing, and it should be up to the player if they decide not to use a feature of a class rather than the GM denying it to them particularly if he's not doing so with anyone else's characters.

It's all about setting expectations. The GM gets to choose what's in his game, but if he's nerfing an OCC, then that needs to be clearly communicated to the players before the players commit to their characters.

--flatline

I can definitely agree with that, the GM should never be telling you some time after the game's started (particularly if you're able to get to level 4 first) that you're going to be denied a feature of that character's class. One should learn everything a GM is going to restrict or allow about a particular character before the game starts to see if he's willing to accept those limitations or else get to switch to a character that he's okay with playing under whatever restrictions (if any) the GM imposes.

Nightmask wrote:

flatline wrote:It's all about setting expectations. The GM gets to choose what's in his game, but if he's nerfing an OCC, then that needs to be clearly communicated to the players before the players commit to their characters.

--flatline

I can definitely agree with that, the GM should never be telling you some time after the game's started (particularly if you're able to get to level 4 first) that you're going to be denied a feature of that character's class. One should learn everything a GM is going to restrict or allow about a particular character before the game starts to see if he's willing to accept those limitations or else get to switch to a character that he's okay with playing under whatever restrictions (if any) the GM imposes.

I think we can ALL agree with that.

Perhaps you can 'summon' an alternate dimension version of yourself to replace yourself? So its you...just level four as a Ley Line Rifter, or a Temporal Wizard, or what ever else you two can agree on. Maybe you and you need to swap places for a bit to do something important. (big old plot hook of the 'mirror universe' version of the party who needs your universe's version of you.....)
Just a thought

flatline wrote:never saw their summoning ability as all that appealing
logistics required by the care and feeding of minions doesn't appeal
in the short run, Summon Lesser Beings is usually good enough

Palladium is often vague on the dietary requirements of many beings. I imagine there are some supernatural minions out there who do not eat. Even of those who do require food, small beings like Lasae probably do not eat much, and many would be capable of foraging for their own food.

Besides food not sure what kind of care is meant... most could survive without shelter so long as something does not kill them.

SLB was always a PPE-hungry nuisance. Even with the RUE boost in PPE it is hard to fuel. Nearly impossible for starter Shifters in RMB even if you can store triple.