Demon Lords' Greater Demon Body Investment Sacrifices +NEWBS

[Tor]

Page 203 of Dragons and Gods[sup]thanks to Drew for PMing me as I overlooked mentioning what book I am talking about, fixed[/sup] mentions that the "most powerful of the greater demons" could be sacrificed to pay body costs.

Out of the kinds from the PFRPG2 book, the options given are these 5 from weakest to strongest (based on how many are needed in the various categories):
1) Baal-Rogs
2) Jinn and Magots
3) Raksasha
4) Locusts

I personally found that a tad confusing because I always thought Baal-Rogs seemed higher-ranking than Magots and Jinn, but I guess their value is more in terms of raw supernatural power as opposed to their usefulness within the Hades military (a crafty Baalrog is probably more useful, particularly in their ability to command troops, than a Magot)

Clearly not every kind of Greater Demon can be used this way. The Greater Demons in the PFRPG main book who are not listed as options for a Body-sacrifice include:

1) Gallu Demon Bulls
2) Night Owls

Lucky fellas, I guess. Their omission I can see as interpreting that they are just too weak (closer to lesser demon status) in their semi-deific nature (supernatural bodies) to be a proper sacrifice...

But there have been other kinds of Greater Demons in the Megaverse whose omission may not necessarily mean that, since they were not part of the Hades mainstay when Dragons and Gods are published.

Since we have 5 tiers of power in terms of Greater Demons, I am wondering if people could offer opinions on where to place these other kinds of Greaters, so as to detemrine if they might be sacrificed to power deific powers as well, and if so, how many you would need to kill to get a desired effect. These tiers are

1) Locust
2) Raksasha
3) Jinn or Magot
4) Baal-Rog
5) Bull or Owl

Although more powerful than a Locust, I get the impression that Greater Demon Lords (the guys statted in Dragons and Gods) are somehow too powerful to be sacrificed this way, or at least it's considered so infeasible that we are not bothered to be told how many Magots they are worth.

From other books, beings BELOW the power of the Greater Lords (and not explicitly minor/lesser) to consider:

Lesser/Minor Demon Lords of Hades
*from PF (Library of Bletherad)
*from Nightbane (Nightands)

Vampire Kingdoms
*Vampires (PRPG originally classified them as Greater Demons, although they were different than the later Intelligence-spawned ones Palladium has gone with since)
*Xibalbans (p161)
*Vukub (p164)
*Hun (p165)
*Camazotz (p170)
*Spider Demon (p173)

Greater Russian Demons (Mystic Russia) aka "Greater Archaic Demon"
*Khitaka (p42)
*Nightfeeder (p44)
*Koshchei (p46)
*Frost Demon (p48)
*Air Demons (p50)
*Wolf-Serpent (p53)

Rifts Mercenaries
*Dysasha (my instinct is to make them Raksasha-equivs...but due to rarity making them Locust-equiv would seem fine)

Conversion Book 2 (Pantheons of the Megaverse)
*Kingu (51)
*Lilith (54) normally Dar'ota would appear to be Lesser on par with Incubus/Succubus but when enhanced like this...
*Galla (57)
*Hyrr'Klean (95)
*Myrroo-kee (96)
*Kansa (138)
*Kumbakarna (140, yes I know he has more MDC than the Lords, but I think this is similar to how Hundred Handed are Godlings)
*Dakinis (142)
*Jahi (198)

Dimension Book 10 (Hades, Pits of Hell)
*Brek-Shall (60)
*Death Demon (63)
*Soul Catcher (65)
*Demon Beetles (80)

Dimension Book 12 (Dimensional Outbreak)
*Demon Knights

When it comes to Death Demons, if they were at all able to do this I would want them ranked lowest, on par with a Baal-Rog, because it is so incredibly easy to mass-produce them for this purpose. To avoid having unlimited God-blazes for the Demon Lords wrecking the balance of this war, it might be more prudent to throw Death Demons in with the Bulls/Owls in presumably being unusable for these sacrifices.

The same could apply to Demon Knights since it seems like Cormal can just make unlimited numbers of them, even though it probably takes longer than making a Death Demon and they are a way bigger resource to lose. If natives like Bulls/Owls are inadequate then non-natives like DDs/DKs being sacrificeable is such a slap in the face, I tell ya.

Even if Demon Knights were allowed, I would say that Greater Demonic Mortals should not be. At best they seem the equivalent to Lesser Demons with the Lesser Demonic Mortals being equivalent to sub-demons.

I feel like Brek-Shalls and Soul-Catchers deserve some kind of nod though... I'm just not sure where to rank them. Maybe Brek-Shalls are Baalrog equiv and Soul Catchers are Jinn-equiv? *shrug*

Ranking the Russians (assuming non-Hades Greater Demons can be used) is some real trouble though.

I want to say all the minor Lords in PF/NB/VK are all Locust-equiv for simplicity.

Although there is no grounds for this (since they were in PF and not included) I feel like we should lump in the Lord/Mage tier Gargoyles with the Gallu Bulls and Night Owls. They deserve honorable 'greater demon' status based on the difficulty that summoners have with them (same with vampires) even if they are not proper fuel sources.

[everloss]

What about the named, unique demons fighting in the Great Rift in the Land of the Damned? They aren't considered demon lords, but are definitely greater demons, if not above them since they command them.

Perhaps palladium should publish a book solely about demons and devils, like they did with Dragons and Gods. They could redo D&G by taking out the demon and devil entries and putting in the various gods introduced in other books. Combine D&G that way with conversion book 2 to make a Rifts version. Take out the dragon section too. Call it a sourcebook. Give dragons their own book (there are enough types by now to do that). That way, demon powers can be explored in more detail and address questions like this.

Demons and Devils - just stats and fluff. No minion war. Include all types from everywhere.
Dragons
Deities -PFRPG, Rifts, etc

Anyway, that's a big tangent.

Back to the topic at hand!

Perhaps the only demons that can be sacrificed are limited in the published manner because only demons native to Hades can be sacrificed that way by demon lords of Hades? Meaning, a demon lord of Hades cannot sacrifice a Xibalban because it is native to a different plane?

[eliakon]

Maybe the specific demons are, in fact the only ones that can be sacrificed? The rituals used are the products of (it is implied) centuries possibly millennia of research.....perhaps those classes are the only ones that have proper rituals at this time? (simple solution...the book is right )

[Tor]

That's the simplest, sure, but I like the idea of anyone being a potential target.

In the case of these LotD 'we outrank the Greaters' guys, I would say anyone like that should be Locust-tier.

Of course that does mean that you can at best only do a Severe with them because the best (Annihilate) requires TWO of the locusts, and you MUST have 2 of the same type, and if the LotD guys are one-of-a-kind then you're out of luck.

One exception to this would be the half-balrog half-beast twin bros who guard the bridges in Hades, I think sacrificing them together could trigger an Annihilate power, since they are alive enough to one another.

[eliakon]

That's the simplest, sure, but I like the idea of anyone being a potential target.

Then make up a house rule But at that point your so far out of canon territory that your probably going to have a hard time getting an agreement on what is what.