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I appreciate the distinction made between super powers and psionics, but I feel this doesn't reflect comic-reality; I don't see Jean Grey running out of I.S.P....

Also, if you can generate plasma or electricity all day, without tiring, why can't you read minds all day?

Have any of you considered transforming psychic powers into super powers and dropping I.S.P.? If you did, did you combine several powers to make the combination more fitting of being chosen as a super power?

Some have been. Check out the New Powers thread at the top of this forum.

There are also the Animal Psionics in both HU and ATB as examples of ISP'less Psionics.

drewkitty ~..~ wrote:There are also the Animal Psionics in both HU and ATB as examples of ISP'less Psionics.

Those would be a good source to look at as a template for this sort of idea and how to "balance" it.

I posted some ideas/converted ISP-less powers a while back.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=105297

and

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=50591

I think people are coming at this from the wrong perspective.

People see that there is virtually no penalty to using superpowers at full strength... so they think that other categories where the energy they fuel their powers with is finite need to be brought up to that level. What if we were to do the opposite... introduce optional rules that reflect the exhaustion these characters experience across all categories.

Think about it... in many comics, you rarely see heroes or villains use the full scope of their powers... and when they do so, you see the exhaustion it causes them. In a lot of prolonged fights, the participants are clearly exhausted afterwards... often barely able to stand.

Case in point, the battle between Superman and Doomsday (arguably the most epic super brawl in recent memory). Both are fighting with everything they have... and are clearly showing signs of exhaustion by the end. Ultimately the fight ends with both fighting not only to exhaustion, but also to the death. More importantly, we find out afterwards that Superman fought so hard that he was actually exhausting his power reserves... which explains why he was a lot weaker when he was eventually revived than he was before the fight... because he hadn't had enough time to replenish those energy reserves.

Then there are numerous battles with Goku that results in him using the Kamahamaha wave against an opponent... only for it to be met head on with another energy wave... often with the two blasts meeting in the middle. Both oppoents begin to pour more energy into these blasts... trying to overwhelm the other... with the effort of maintaining that level of energy output clearly exhausting both sides. In the end, these fights come down to who can maintain the energy output the longest... or who can pour enough energy to overwhelm the opponent... but both clearly take their toll on the participants.

In many video and computer games that are based on comics in general, there is a level of exhaustion the characters suffer. One doesn't use just their most powerful attack as that is often their most exhausting attack (takes the most amount of energy to use or takes a while to recharge). Often one uses a lot of smaller attacks... saving that larger, more exhausting power for when it is really needed. True... there are times when dealing with a minor threat the use of that big power can be justified to end a fight quickly... but against a real threat, one usually takes a more paced out approach to a fight... so that they can use the powers they need when they need them rather than be too exhausted to defend themselves.

Instead of trying to rework Psionics or Magic so that they don't need an exhaustible energy system like ISP or PPE... maybe we need a set of optional rules that brings the threat and penalties of exhausting oneself to those power categories that normally don't suffer from the limitations Psionics and Magic do.

Razorwing, I agree that we could go the other way, but this doesn't fix psionics. HU just can't be used to emulate the psychics from comic books. You simply can't play a character like Jean Grey or Professor X in HU.

Also, while adding some sort of power reserve mechanic might add realism, will it make the game more fun? Do you really want to add more bookkeeping to the game? Would you take this the next logical step and use this system to determine how fatigued a character gets when running, flying, or swimming? Going up and down the stairs? Would it apply to just energy expenditure or all powers? Would I need to tap into my energy reserve to utilize Extraordinary M.E.?

I'm not looking for more complications or infusions of reality. I just want to be able to recreate the fictional characters from other sources.

barna10 wrote:Razorwing, I agree that we could go the other way, but this doesn't fix psionics. HU just can't be used to emulate the psychics from comic books. You simply can't play a character like Jean Grey or Professor X in HU.

Also, while adding some sort of power reserve mechanic might add realism, will it make the game more fun? Do you really want to add more bookkeeping to the game? Would you take this the next logical step and use this system to determine how fatigued a character gets when running, flying, or swimming? Going up and down the stairs? Would it apply to just energy expenditure or all powers? Would I need to tap into my energy reserve to utilize Extraordinary M.E.?

I'm not looking for more complications or infusions of reality. I just want to be able to recreate the fictional characters from other sources.

I believe the game already has rules to cover exhaustion from things like running or swimming, but as someone once mentioned on the CMF forums years back most fights don't last long enough for the rules to really matter. But such general rules could easily cover combat exhaustion in every case rather than psychics having such extreme limitations so that they exhaust their abilities so rapidly and instead have them exhaust like everyone else. It makes little sense that a psychic drains his psychic abilities but could keep on fighting courtesy of his exceptional martial arts training as if he hadn't done anything exhausting when if he was actually exhausted from the use of his abilities to where he couldn't use them he shouldn't logically be able to do anything else let alone still keep doing heavy physically active things like combat.

Nightmask wrote:I believe the game already has rules to cover exhaustion from things like running or swimming, but as someone once mentioned on the CMF forums years back most fights don't last long enough for the rules to really matter. But such general rules could easily cover combat exhaustion in every case rather than psychics having such extreme limitations so that they exhaust their abilities so rapidly and instead have them exhaust like everyone else. It makes little sense that a psychic drains his psychic abilities but could keep on fighting courtesy of his exceptional martial arts training as if he hadn't done anything exhausting when if he was actually exhausted from the use of his abilities to where he couldn't use them he shouldn't logically be able to do anything else let alone still keep doing heavy physically active things like combat.

good point

The thing is that even characters like Jean Grey and Professor X have limitations... they do eventually exhaust their power when they push themselves too far. There are many examples when the act of using her telekinetic powers is putting a strain on Jean... exhausting her power. The same is true for Professor X when he goes up against minds nearly as powerful as his own.

There are very few beings in the Comics that have absolutely no limits to their powers... even cosmic entities like Galactus, the Beyonder and others eventually show signs of exhaustion... though it takes considerable effort to drain them like this.

And for the record, yes, a more plausible level of exhaustion rules would apply to all characters who use their full level of power (running/flying at top speed, firing full blast energy waves, using their full strength). The idea that a person can shoot energy blasts that can vaporize a mountain non-stop for hours on end is quite ridiculous... but the current rules allow it.

Look at sports... look at how tired sprint runners are after an event... mostly because they are running as fast as they can. Sure, it doesn't take long for them to recover afterwards (at least in many cases), but going all out does have a draining effect. This should also be the same for super powers... one is taxing their body... pushing it to the limits... and there should be consequences for doing so.

Palladium has always prided itself on being a thinking-man's game where one can't just rush in with guns blazing in the hope of overwhelming the opposition. One is supposed to think their actions through, use tactics and their powers to gain an advantage... and carefully decide if using one's energy on a given task is worth the risk of not having the energy one needs later on. Yet, when it comes to using Super Powers (as opposed to magic or psionics), that is no longer the case as there is no reason to actually hold back... one can fire 15d6 energy blasts with every action (5+ per melee in many cases) for hours on end without any sign of fatigue (that's a total of 75d6 damage per melee... 300d6 per minute... 18,000d6 an hour... 432,000d6 a day... 157,788,000d6 a year... that's almost 1 billion points of damage at best). True, he may exhaust himself doing this... but for reasons other than sustaining this level of energy output (and with a power like Healing Factor included... even normal fatigue is waved). If there is no reason to hold back... why would anyone do so?

Do we actually see any Hero in comics acting this way... using their full strength in ever battle? No... most of the time they are expending only what they need to... reserving their full strength for when it is actually needed. The Flash doesn't run at full speed all the time, but usually runs at a slower (though still very fast) speed most of the time. It is only in rare cases when he runs full out... and doing so almost always has consequences (the Flashpoint Paradox for example). The same is true with every other Superhero and villain (though most villains rarely care about those consequences).

Even Professor X and Jean Grey have their limits.

Correction, Jean Grey and Xavier aren't exhausting their powers they're exhausting themselves, as in general exhaustion they aren't using up some special pool of psychic energy but remaining otherwise fine which is what you get with the ISP rules for psychic characters in HU. They become fatigued which ends up hindering their ability to do anything including use their psychic powers without forcing themselves to overcome it.

One note (nitpicking), many time the Flash is portrayed as not tiring. For instance, in one episode of Batman, The Brave and the Bold, we find Flash on a a large gerbil wheel powering an entire city, 24-7.

I think their should be an potion for a super with "endless energy" (Fusion Man!), and there should also be fatigue mechanics.

I like the trade-off of magic (options at the cost of limited use) and super powers (unlimited use, but fewer options). The problem I have is Psionics is weaker than either of these (you get fewer options than magic and fewer uses as well, and your power level doesn't increase per level most of the time). Psionics should be at least as powerful and versatile as Magic, or just converted into a super-power.

Oh I agree Razorwing that psychic's do have limits in the comics, but they're not nearly as limited as you see in Heroes. A psychic can 'blow the load' using just a few super powers to keep up with what's going on in a fight in Heroes and take days to recoup. Heck when you have one use of a psi-sword needing 5 hours of meditation there's a problem with the system for a comic book style game.


Daniel Stoker

Daniel Stoker wrote:Oh I agree Razorwing that psychic's do have limits in the comics, but they're not nearly as limited as you see in Heroes. A psychic can 'blow the load' using just a few super powers to keep up with what's going on in a fight in Heroes and take days to recoup. Heck when you have one use of a psi-sword needing 5 hours of meditation there's a problem with the system for a comic book style game.

What he said

barna10 wrote:One note (nitpicking), many time the Flash is portrayed as not tiring. For instance, in one episode of Batman, The Brave and the Bold, we find Flash on a a large gerbil wheel powering an entire city, 24-7.

I think their should be an potion for a super with "endless energy" (Fusion Man!), and there should also be fatigue mechanics.

I like the trade-off of magic (options at the cost of limited use) and super powers (unlimited use, but fewer options). The problem I have is Psionics is weaker than either of these (you get fewer options than magic and fewer uses as well, and your power level doesn't increase per level most of the time). Psionics should be at least as powerful and versatile as Magic, or just converted into a super-power.

An exception due the nature and source of his power(s), it explicitly gives him endless energy so he never tires (except when they try to inject 'realism' when it really isn't appropriate).

I'm not saying it is a perfect system... clearly the rate of replenishing ISP and PPE is far lower than the time it takes to expend this energy (most of the time in games I play/run, we've ruled that a good night's sleep is enough to replenish one's reserves regardless of how long it would normally take). Adjusting the rate at one replenishes their reserves is a fairly simple matter.

That said, one still has to be smart about when they use that much energy... does one really need to summon a Psi-Sword for to deal with a group of bank robbers (where the fight is probably not going to last the full duration of the power)... or is it better to save it for when one is about to enter a heavily fortified building and there will likely be a number of brief skirmishes over the course of the power's duration.

Actually... the Flash does tire. While the source of his powers may be the Speed Force he taps into, he still needs to eat enough to maintain his increased metabolic rate. It may not be something that is depicted often... but often enough to show that even he has limits to his abilities.

The point I am trying to make however is that those with super powers (as opposed to magic or psionics) are given a level of power that isn't realistic. One shouldn't be able to use the full extent of their powers without any signs of fatigue, especially after hours of intense, physically demanding action. Where does the "thinking" come into a thinking man's game if one can simply power through at full strength with no plausible consequences for doing so?

Razorwing wrote:The point I am trying to make however is that those with super powers (as opposed to magic or psionics) are given a level of power that isn't realistic. One shouldn't be able to use the full extent of their powers without any signs of fatigue, especially after hours of intense, physically demanding action. Where does the "thinking" come into a thinking man's game if one can simply power through at full strength with no plausible consequences for doing so?

Yes, the game isn't realistic. It's a game about super powers and doing unreal things. Not trying to be funny, but using the "not realistic" argument when talking about a game about super powers that can bend space and time is a bit funny.

Also, "thinking" has nothing to do with power level. There's just as much need to think with godly powers as there is when everyone is playing a normal human, it's the players that make the game, not the other way around. Players and GMs can destroy any game no matter how much "thinking" you try to incorporate into a system, and, I'm sorry, but Palladium is not one of the upper-tier "thinking man's" games If it were, there'd be more "thinking" that went to rules design and consistency, but that's a discussion for another time and place...

Regardless, we're talking about comic-reality, not the real world. There are individuals from the comics that can't be portrayed using the HU system. If that's OK with you, fine, but it's not OK with me. This system is great for recreating the likes of Batman, but fails at recreating many of the other colorful folks that populate comic pages. The Flash, Jean Grey, Professor X, Firestorm, Doctor Strange, and many more heroes are impossible to recreate in HU. I don't like that.

I don't mind and I use a PPE and ISP pool in my games because of the breadth of their abilities, but the cost and or the regeneration of their pool needs to be dealt with to make a better comic book style game in my opinion. I tend to allow a psychic to regen their full ISP pool with 8 hours of sleep so while they're limited still they don't have to spend days recouping from one fight.


Daniel Stoker

Razorwing wrote:I'm not saying it is a perfect system... clearly the rate of replenishing ISP and PPE is far lower than the time it takes to expend this energy (most of the time in games I play/run, we've ruled that a good night's sleep is enough to replenish one's reserves regardless of how long it would normally take). Adjusting the rate at one replenishes their reserves is a fairly simple matter.

Which still leaves you with the issue of said characters being able to a range of things not related to their powers/spells as if they were never exhausted which isn't how it shows up in the comics where the character physically exhausts and is unable to do much of anything because that's how exhaustion ends up affecting things. You don't see Dr. Strange going 'I've used my mystic energies up time to just beat down my opponents with my martial arts training', his response is 'I've overtaxed myself must find a few minutes to rest and recover'.

Razorwing wrote:That said, one still has to be smart about when they use that much energy... does one really need to summon a Psi-Sword for to deal with a group of bank robbers (where the fight is probably not going to last the full duration of the power)... or is it better to save it for when one is about to enter a heavily fortified building and there will likely be a number of brief skirmishes over the course of the power's duration.

Except one has no idea what one's going to be doing from one moment to the next generally, and 'well gee I could ensure I take out these robbers if I use my psi-sword but better risk getting killed because I can't spare the power in case something else comes up later' is hardly appropriate behavior to force onto a PC particularly when the conventional super next to him can use his electrical blasts all day long without issue.

Razorwing wrote:Actually... the Flash does tire. While the source of his powers may be the Speed Force he taps into, he still needs to eat enough to maintain his increased metabolic rate. It may not be something that is depicted often... but often enough to show that even he has limits to his abilities.

That comes under the heading of a retcon/add-on that came about sometime after the first Crisis, prior to that Flash was never depicted as tiring or needing to eat anything to power himself because he didn't (heck the guy would be shown at times circling the earth multiple times without any issue at all, the closest you'd ever see to him tiring was when fighting his arch-nemesis the Reverse Flash as both pushed each other to their absolute limits).

Razorwing wrote:The point I am trying to make however is that those with super powers (as opposed to magic or psionics) are given a level of power that isn't realistic. One shouldn't be able to use the full extent of their powers without any signs of fatigue, especially after hours of intense, physically demanding action. Where does the "thinking" come into a thinking man's game if one can simply power through at full strength with no plausible consequences for doing so?

Except characters almost constantly do just that, Thor and Hulk can fight for days or week non-stop depending on the circumstances and Magneto's able to go hours of non-stop use of his powers before it starts to fatigue him. Even Captain America can work at peak ability for hours on end because one of the powers of the SSS is to negate fatigue poisons so he's mostly at risk just from general exhausting of his physical energy reserves (since there's rarely time to catch a meal and digest food when in a sustained hours-long battle).

Most point-based supers games allow players to customize their powers with disadvantages, like exhaustion as a side effect of pushing past a limit, and reward players for doing so by making the powers less expensive to improve. While that's not completely applicable to HU because characters typically begin and end with the same powers, with only level-based increases in effectiveness, I think a clever GM could outline a set of common disadvantages that could be applied to most powers in exchange for a corresponding advantage. If one were so inclined, he or she could even set them up as random tables; allowing players to roll for their superpower, a disadvantage that changes how the power impacts the character, and an advantage that alters how the power works on others or the world around the character. So perhaps your APS metal character is vulnerable to a rare mineral and her powers wont function near it but her attacks inflict double damage against inanimate objects (triple on a critical strike). The crazy hero tables are probably a good starting point.

barna10 wrote:I appreciate the distinction made between super powers and psionics, but I feel this doesn't reflect comic-reality; I don't see Jean Grey running out of I.S.P....

Also, if you can generate plasma or electricity all day, without tiring, why can't you read minds all day?

Have any of you considered transforming psychic powers into super powers and dropping I.S.P.? If you did, did you combine several powers to make the combination more fitting of being chosen as a super power?

No to all. However if I did I'd drop the ISP and put the Healing/Physical/Sensitive Psionic powers into the "Minor Super Power" category and put the Super-Psionic into the "Major Super Power" category as is for simplicity. Some related powers (thinking of TK ones) might get lumped together under Major, possibly even as part of level advancement.

So while Supers get a benefit in terms of energy pool (unlimited) to use these "psychic" powers, compared to a real psychic they probably are not as developed in terms of diversity. A Super (Mutant/Experiment/Alien etc) is generally limited in power selection (IIRC 4 max at 1st level and development of new powers is limited if at all IINM), but a Psionic gets 8 or 6+1 as a Latent (a Natural/Master gets more) per the Main book and the Psionic continues to develop new powers.

There are classes (Race and OCC) that have access to Psychic powers at reduced/no cost as a result of training (ex. Rifts Cyber Knight, Amaiki Duelist) and sometimes natural inclination (ex Psi-X aliens), so if a player wanted to I could see spending an "Other Skill" to train a power up for altered performance or to make them a "natural" at the power. I would also consider altering the ISP regeneration rate or the base pool.

Daniel Stoker wrote:Oh I agree Razorwing that psychic's do have limits in the comics, but they're not nearly as limited as you see in Heroes. A psychic can 'blow the load' using just a few super powers to keep up with what's going on in a fight in Heroes and take days to recoup. Heck when you have one use of a psi-sword needing 5 hours of meditation there's a problem with the system for a comic book style game.


Daniel Stoker

Well said sir.

We usually increase regen speeds. Resting numbers all the time, times 2 for sleep or no significant activity, times 4 for meditiation. And the GM usually either bonuses starting ISP and/or put his or her thumb on the scale for points per level checks. House rules might be a little off, been a while since I played a psychic in Heroes. Which is admittedly odd for me... Maybe it's time to roll up a character who has godling making me pork chop sandwiches again...

Powers are not used with out limit. There are rules for exhaustion in the front of the second edition book and how penalties add up over time.

Where exactly? I just looked through HU 2nd edition and found nothing about exhaustion except under Hardware Characters.

VR Dragon wrote:Powers are not used with out limit. There are rules for exhaustion in the front of the second edition book and how penalties add up over time.

Powers are generally used without limit, the guy with an energy attack can fire off his entire melee count every melee for hours if he had reason to or felt like it even if you include the exhaustion rules, meanwhile the psychic burns out within minutes if he even remotely tries to to that and will require way way longer than the super to recover.

Well yeah that is why i tried to convert psi powers to super powers because it was silly. I hate batteries and keeping track and the like. Well the psychic has access to so many powers it is claimed they balance out by having to keep track of brain juice points. The same goes for magic and ppe. I would say less is more and lose the points.

There is no doubt that the ISP system is Broken. When 1 short fight takes literally days to recover from. Rifter #37 page 27 has a possable solution for this. Just My opinion.

One possible solution is to go with the Animal system.
Where you get a limited number of Psi...but they just 'work'

FreelancerMar wrote:There is no doubt that the ISP system is Broken. When 1 short fight takes literally days to recover from. Rifter #37 page 27 has a possable solution for this. Just My opinion.

Since I don't have that one can you let me know what the basic idea there?


Daniel Stoker

I would be interested in hearing more. The Vicereine in Robotech Genesis Pits have some decent abilities that could be useful. Though now that I think on it, there are some powers in the Powers Unlimited books that offer many equivalents to things like telekinesis. With level gains too.

As for magic, Rifts conversion book directs players to the relevant warlock spells of the same name for powers like Control Element. Not that magic needs any further revamping. So classes could do some tweaking in such a fashion. I wouldn't do away with the point system, But instead offer some trade-offs to provide a character something to fall back on when they start to run out of tricks.

The easiest way is always going to be to drop the ISP or PPE cost. It slows a game down when your psychic and / or mage players have to stop in the middle of a game to recoup when the villain could strike at any time.
CES

csyphrett wrote:The easiest way is always going to be to drop the ISP or PPE cost. It slows a game down when your psychic and / or mage players have to stop in the middle of a game to recoup when the villain could strike at any time.
CES

Or be forced into using conventional weapons while everyone else is getting to keep using things that are the focus of their characters, that's really something the player should get to decide instead of be forced on them by a game mechanic.

The general mindset of a mage is to rely on the ability to cast rather than use alternate means. If I wanted to use guns and other tools, I'd build a hardware character. An exception being the techno wizard.

On a side note, modern weapons are limited in ammunition. Robotics and Cyborgs have a few options if getting into energy weapons, but otherwise still limited. Heroes Wizard is a great as it is, generally leylines and nexus mechanics can get overlooked in a game. Most cities would logically have such things flowing through them and keep a mage decently charged. Graveyards and other spiritual grounds make likely Nexus points.

Something our group houserules is to replenish PPE/ISP pools to full at the next day. Still makes for a cautious character, but not mechanically crippled for the next in game week.

Dakchronos wrote:The general mindset of a mage is to rely on the ability to cast rather than use alternate means. If I wanted to use guns and other tools, I'd build a hardware character. An exception being the techno wizard.

I have always disagreed with this and laughed every time K.S. plastered the books with paragraph after paragraph trying to convince people of this mindset. Tell this to Gandalf that rides into battle smiting Orcs with his staff or wades into battle with Goblins wielding a shining longsword.

The same argument could be made of Ninjas claiming they would only use traditional "Ninja Weapons" because that's their "general mindset", yet the Ninja were the first to use gunpowder and guns in medieval Japan! Or Plains Indians who EAGERLY adopted the use of firearms instead of relying on traditional weapons.

Also, if a Mage wants to use spells and you're "playing him wrong" (as one GM told me), then a Hero with an energy blast power is being played wrong when he chooses to punch someone instead of fry him.

I'm sorry, but Mages are generally intelligent. An intelligent character would be resourceful. If carrying a gun makes sense then he or she would. If it made sense to conserve his strength then I highly doubt he'd have some internal conflict like "Well...I'm almost out of juice but I really don't want to be seen resorting to using a gun...what would the neighbors think!? I'm a mage! I have to use magic! Even if it means I run out of juice and get my butt kicked, I can't resort to other means to fight evil!"

barna10 wrote:

Dakchronos wrote:The general mindset of a mage is to rely on the ability to cast rather than use alternate means. If I wanted to use guns and other tools, I'd build a hardware character. An exception being the techno wizard.

I have always disagreed with this and laughed every time K.S. plastered the books with paragraph after paragraph trying to convince people of this mindset. Tell this to Gandalf that rides into battle smiting Orcs with his staff or wades into battle with Goblins wielding a shining longsword.

THIS! Oh my yes. The Archetypical wizard of the modern era...and he uses a W.P. for most situations.

barna10 wrote:The same argument could be made of Ninjas claiming they would only use traditional "Ninja Weapons" because that's their "general mindset", yet the Ninja were the first to use gunpowder and guns in medieval Japan! Or Plains Indians who EAGERLY adopted the use of firearms instead of relying on traditional weapons.

To the point that the Rifts books have to allow even the most magically obsessed 'traditionalist' Indians to use guns.....

barna10 wrote:Also, if a Mage wants to use spells and you're "playing him wrong" (as one GM told me), then a Hero with an energy blast power is being played wrong when he chooses to punch someone instead of fry him.

Very true. Not to mention it always bothers me when I get told by other people that 'your playing them wrong' But does this mean that every time Superman DOEST hit someone he is being played wrong

barna10 wrote:I'm sorry, but Mages are generally intelligent. An intelligent character would be resourceful. If carrying a gun makes sense then he or she would. If it made sense to conserve his strength then I highly doubt he'd have some internal conflict like "Well...I'm almost out of juice but I really don't want to be seen resorting to using a gun...what would the neighbors think!? I'm a mage! I have to use magic! Even if it means I run out of juice and get my butt kicked, I can't resort to other means to fight evil!"

Amen brother/sister/para-sibling of indeterminate gender preach it!
Unless the mage in question has some sort of magical addiction (like from the Rifter article) then really, why do they have to use magic for EVERYTHING?

eliakon wrote:Amen brother/sister/para-sibling of indeterminate gender preach it!
Unless the mage in question has some sort of magical addiction (like from the Rifter article) then really, why do they have to use magic for EVERYTHING?

Because they can. It's a matter of ego.

Dakchronos wrote:Though now that I think on it, there are some powers in the Powers Unlimited books that offer many equivalents to things like telekinesis. With level gains too.

I think I'd get a kick out of playing a Heroes Unlimited "psionicist" who doesn't really have any psionic powers or ISP issues. I mean, yeah, I call it Hypnotic Suggestion, but it's really just my unlimited-use Control: Others power. And, sure, I say I'm concentrating to become Impervious To Cold or Impervious To Fire -- or to Summon Inner Strength, or Resist Hunger, or whatever -- but I actually just, y'know, have the Invulnerability power. And so, too, would I cross-leggedly Float into the air, or adjust my visual capabilities for Nightvision, or engage in a Telekinetic Leap, but I'm only ever just using Sonic Flight.

And so I act like I have a Mind Block Auto-Defense -- except I just have the "immune to psionic powers that are not physical in nature" perk of being the right kind of humanoid alien. And so on.

Glistam wrote:

eliakon wrote:Amen brother/sister/para-sibling of indeterminate gender preach it!
Unless the mage in question has some sort of magical addiction (like from the Rifter article) then really, why do they have to use magic for EVERYTHING?

Because they can. It's a matter of ego.

Are you seriously telling me that every mage is required to
1) have a monstrous ego so large as to preclude any sort of common sense
2) follow the urgings of this ego in everything, even the most self destructive urge
3) that only mages suffer from this flaw, and that every other class of being in the multiverse is exempt
4) and failure to do so means that I am playing a mage WRONG?

Seriously?

Regularguy wrote:

Dakchronos wrote:Though now that I think on it, there are some powers in the Powers Unlimited books that offer many equivalents to things like telekinesis. With level gains too.

I think I'd get a kick out of playing a Heroes Unlimited "psionicist" who doesn't really have any psionic powers or ISP issues. I mean, yeah, I call it Hypnotic Suggestion, but it's really just my unlimited-use Control: Others power. And, sure, I say I'm concentrating to become Impervious To Cold or Impervious To Fire -- or to Summon Inner Strength, or Resist Hunger, or whatever -- but I actually just, y'know, have the Invulnerability power. And so, too, would I cross-leggedly Float into the air, or adjust my visual capabilities for Nightvision, or engage in a Telekinetic Leap, but I'm only ever just using Sonic Flight.

And so I act like I have a Mind Block Auto-Defense -- except I just have the "immune to psionic powers that are not physical in nature" perk of being the right kind of humanoid alien. And so on.

That was my thought process when I created this hero.

eliakon wrote:

Glistam wrote:

eliakon wrote:Amen brother/sister/para-sibling of indeterminate gender preach it!
Unless the mage in question has some sort of magical addiction (like from the Rifter article) then really, why do they have to use magic for EVERYTHING?

Because they can. It's a matter of ego.

Are you seriously telling me that every mage is required to
1) have a monstrous ego so large as to preclude any sort of common sense
2) follow the urgings of this ego in everything, even the most self destructive urge
3) that only mages suffer from this flaw, and that every other class of being in the multiverse is exempt
4) and failure to do so means that I am playing a mage WRONG?

Seriously?

A matter of ego...just like weight lifters always try to solve problems with their strength and speedsters always do everything faster (the ladies must love them...). Let it go. Some people drank the kool-ade and can't see the big picture. Se la vie.

eliakon wrote:

Glistam wrote:

eliakon wrote:Amen brother/sister/para-sibling of indeterminate gender preach it!
Unless the mage in question has some sort of magical addiction (like from the Rifter article) then really, why do they have to use magic for EVERYTHING?

Because they can. It's a matter of ego.

Are you seriously telling me that every mage is required to
1) have a monstrous ego so large as to preclude any sort of common sense
2) follow the urgings of this ego in everything, even the most self destructive urge
3) that only mages suffer from this flaw, and that every other class of being in the multiverse is exempt
4) and failure to do so means that I am playing a mage WRONG?

Seriously?

No. Just the "mage in question" that you refereed to.

My Mystic Study Wizard did not spend 3D4 years learning the secrets of magic so that he could choose to use a gun or a sword in a fight. If things have gotten to that point then he has done something seriously wrong and he will be very disappointed in himself afterwards.

Daniel Stoker wrote:

FreelancerMar wrote:There is no doubt that the ISP system is Broken. When 1 short fight takes literally days to recover from. Rifter #37 page 27 has a possable solution for this. Just My opinion.

Since I don't have that one can you let me know what the basic idea there?

Daniel Stoker

It's one of the "Power Category-Specific Mega-Hero Options" presented for the Psionic Mega-Hero:

Rifter 37 wrote:Incredible I.S.P. Recovery: The Mega-Hero may or may not already have a large pool of I.S.P. at his disposal, but what he does have is a quicker I.S.P. recovery rate and a shorter down time. I.S.P. is recovered at a phenomenal rate of 6 points per minute of meditation or rest, or 1 point per minute of activity.

Though in some ways a minor power can be considered equivalent to the Mega-Hero special powers (except Immortality and Undead), and a psionic power from the lesser categories of Healing, Physical and Sensitive can be considered equivalent to a minor power, I would be very leery of declaring this mega-power as equivalent to a lesser psionic power.

I have had players go both ways. Some don't like anything but magic powers or melee weapons and since the mage is one of the few classes that gets a magic weapon, they pick one. On the other hand, I have also seen players build their guys like hardware characters and use magic as a supplement to their skills.

After all, even Harry Dresden just shoots a mofo in the face.
CES

csyphrett wrote:I have had players go both ways. Some don't like anything but magic powers or melee weapons and since the mage is one of the few classes that gets a magic weapon, they pick one. On the other hand, I have also seen players build their guys like hardware characters and use magic as a supplement to their skills.

After all, even Harry Dresden just shoots a mofo in the face.
CES

Harry Dresden's explanations for why he uses guns are a great example of why mages should not limit themselves solely to magic, but also talks about how many of them do, anyway.

csyphrett wrote:I have had players go both ways. Some don't like anything but magic powers or melee weapons and since the mage is one of the few classes that gets a magic weapon, they pick one. On the other hand, I have also seen players build their guys like hardware characters and use magic as a supplement to their skills.

After all, even Harry Dresden just shoots a mofo in the face.
CES

Where's that one? Are you referring to Mystic Study getting a full magic weapon? or just a minor one? a bit confused.

Dakchronos wrote:

csyphrett wrote:I have had players go both ways. Some don't like anything but magic powers or melee weapons and since the mage is one of the few classes that gets a magic weapon, they pick one. On the other hand, I have also seen players build their guys like hardware characters and use magic as a supplement to their skills.

After all, even Harry Dresden just shoots a mofo in the face.
CES

Where's that one? Are you referring to Mystic Study getting a full magic weapon? or just a minor one? a bit confused.

About what? Several magic classes get weapons as part of the class, or can build magic weapons.

Several players that I have had picked classes where they knew they could get a magic weapon with spells on the side as backup. One guy built a guy with mystic study and all the skills that didn't directly tie into his magic went into armor and weapons skills. The first time he went up against a werewolf, he shot it with silver bullets from an assault rifle.
CES

csyphrett wrote:

Dakchronos wrote:

csyphrett wrote:I have had players go both ways. Some don't like anything but magic powers or melee weapons and since the mage is one of the few classes that gets a magic weapon, they pick one. On the other hand, I have also seen players build their guys like hardware characters and use magic as a supplement to their skills.

After all, even Harry Dresden just shoots a mofo in the face.
CES

Where's that one? Are you referring to Mystic Study getting a full magic weapon? or just a minor one? a bit confused.

About what? Several magic classes get weapons as part of the class, or can build magic weapons.

Several players that I have had picked classes where they knew they could get a magic weapon with spells on the side as backup. One guy built a guy with mystic study and all the skills that didn't directly tie into his magic went into armor and weapons skills. The first time he went up against a werewolf, he shot it with silver bullets from an assault rifle.
CES

As someone who likes skills over powers, what is the issue with a mystic or mage carrying a few specilty mundane weapons that affect supernatural...especially since those supernatural know that the only one a mystic/mage has the inanate power to harm them. Plus PPE/ISP run out rather fast in combat.

Ranger wrote:As someone who likes skills over powers, what is the issue with a mystic or mage carrying a few specilty mundane weapons that affect supernatural...especially since those supernatural know that the only one a mystic/mage has the inanate power to harm them. Plus PPE/ISP run out rather fast in combat.

There isn't one unless you believe every Mage is a small-minded idiot that thinks he can ONLY use magic. For some reason the Palladium company line is that mages should be played this way, but I 100% disagree.

barna10 wrote:

Ranger wrote:As someone who likes skills over powers, what is the issue with a mystic or mage carrying a few specilty mundane weapons that affect supernatural...especially since those supernatural know that the only one a mystic/mage has the inanate power to harm them. Plus PPE/ISP run out rather fast in combat.

There isn't one unless you believe every Mage is a small-minded idiot that thinks he can ONLY use magic. For some reason the Palladium company line is that mages should be played this way, but I 100% disagree.

That kind of thing does get irritating after a while, the generic description of a mage gets treated as somehow a physical law they're all supposed to follow to be a 'true mage'. You have to wonder how they'd survive particularly in a modern setting since going by that 'logic' they wouldn't use phones, TV, car, etc which is ridiculous. The only reason Dr. Strange isn't seen driving anywhere is he's in NYC and can afford taxis (and that whole 'drove drunk, wrecked car and hands, suffered horribly for it until becoming mage' thing).

Same thing comes up with psychics, insisting that they'd somehow use their psychic powers for everything 'just because'. Some might but those tend to be villains caught up in their ego and belief that they're gods or close to it and refuse to act like a normal person.