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Cheap is, of course, relative, but in another thread recently someone discounted the value of Chipwell power armor. I'm paraphrasing, but clearly the poster thought they were death traps.

For about the price of good EBA, you can have 120MDC, run 40mph, jump 15ft, enhanced strength (PS 20 is mightier than most of my characters), and all the amenities of power armor (radar, controlled environment, etc). What's not to love?

The mistake that I think people make is that they want to compare it to other power armor that costs 30x as much when they should be comparing it against EBA which costs about 30% less. Sure, it's clearly not as good as a Super-SAMAS, but it's disposable like EBA. Treat it that way.

It's like complaining that a cut down but fully functional car that is priced like a bicycle isn't as capable as a more typical car that costs 20x as much when instead they should be marveling that they can get a fully functional car for the price of a bicycle.

I played for years wearing Plastic-Man because it was the cheapest EBA available. Could I take as much damage as the guy wearing heavier stuff? Of course not, but I promise I got shot at a whole lot less because I was perceived as the lesser threat. Also, I kept my head down because I didn't expect my armor to keep me alive. When Mercenaries came out with Chipwell power armor, I was excited because now I could run 40mph.

It's all about expectations.

--flatline

All well and good. Except I get away from having to buy the cheaper stuff because in real life that's what I sometimes have to do. Why should my character have to go around with the cheap stuff. Not unless I have to. I play rpgs to get away from the mundane of real life. Not to relive it a second time. In real life one has to sometimes buy the cheaper stuff. My character can and will go around with as much bling as possible. Or at least as much as he can afford. Depending on the game one also has to upgrade. At higher levels as a GM I don't do player favors. If you want to go around with the cheap stuff. Fine do so. Don't come crying to me after when the character dies because he decided to keep wearing the cheap stuff.

Sureshot wrote:All well and good. Except I get away from having to buy the cheaper stuff because in real life that's what I sometimes have to do. Why should my character have to go around with the cheap stuff. Not unless I have to. I play rpgs to get away from the mundane of real life. Not to relive it a second time. In real life one has to sometimes buy the cheaper stuff. My character can and will go around with as much bling as possible. Or at least as much as he can afford. Depending on the game one also has to upgrade. At higher levels as a GM I don't do player favors. If you want to go around with the cheap stuff. Fine do so. Don't come crying to me after when the character dies because he decided to keep wearing the cheap stuff.

Cheap doesn't always mean inferior, cheap can mean generic but quality, reliable product where the expensive is more about brand name rather than it really being superior.

Nightmask wrote:Cheap doesn't always mean inferior, cheap can mean generic but quality, reliable product where the expensive is more about brand name rather than it really being superior.

I get that. I see no reason to get the cheaper stuff. When I play I want to get as many nice toys as possible. Which give the best protection. Will I be the cheaper stuff sure. Only if I have no money to buy the best. Like I said when I play rpgs I don't want to live the same life outside of rpgs.

Given how gear tends to get degraded over time in rifts even with repairs you often get cases where its no longer reasonable/viable to repair a badly damaged armor up to snuff and sometimes when you are in hick town nowhere USA and need a replacement armor you get what you can get. Sometimes plastic man is all you can get and you make due with what you can find and what you can afford.

Unless you are visiting some big city like merc town or one of the NG cities or Lazlo there is a really good chance your options for gear replacement in the field are going to tend to the more common more inexpensive stuff simply because its easier for some wilderness town to stock it.

flatline wrote:Cheap is, of course, relative, but in another thread recently someone discounted the value of Chipwell power armor. I'm paraphrasing, but clearly the poster thought they were death traps.

For about the price of good EBA, you can have 120MDC, run 40mph, jump 15ft, enhanced strength (PS 20 is mightier than most of my characters), and all the amenities of power armor (radar, controlled environment, etc). What's not to love?

The mistake that I think people make is that they want to compare it to other power armor that costs 30x as much when they should be comparing it against EBA which costs about 30% less. Sure, it's clearly not as good as a Super-SAMAS, but it's disposable like EBA. Treat it that way.

It's like complaining that a cut down but fully functional car that is priced like a bicycle isn't as capable as a more typical car that costs 20x as much when instead they should be marveling that they can get a fully functional car for the price of a bicycle.

I played for years wearing Plastic-Man because it was the cheapest EBA available. Could I take as much damage as the guy wearing heavier stuff? Of course not, but I promise I got shot at a whole lot less because I was perceived as the lesser threat. Also, I kept my head down because I didn't expect my armor to keep me alive. When Mercenaries came out with Chipwell power armor, I was excited because now I could run 40mph.

It's all about expectations.

--flatline

Personally, I always loved the idea of the Chipwell too. but with that said, They do have one big disadvantage.

As you said, with the plastic man, you were perceived as less of a threat. they were confident you'd be easy to "mop up" after the larger threats were taken out, so you didn't get shot at much. which is good, because a couple lucky rolls really was all your armor could take (or maybe 3-4 unlucky ones)

the Chipwell will not be seen as not a threat. why? because like you said, it DOES have all the anemnities of power armor. you will be stronger, faster, have better sensors, more MDC, and the strength to use heavy PA level weaponry. That will make you a threat compared to everyone else in regular EBA.

Or to put another way: It might be the "crappiest" power armor in the game, but that's like saying it's the crappiest tank in the game--you are still way more dangerous with it than regular infantry, and if you are the only power armor user in your group, then they will focus fire on you--and they really do only have 120 MDC. which, while 4x as much as a plastic man armor, goes by a lot faster when everyone is concentrating fire at you.


And that's why it's considered a deathtrap. not because it isn't useful, because power armor is always useful, but because it warrents the same kind of fire as larger PA's do...without the durability of other PA's to take that kind of punishment.

It's the difference between a proper armored personell carrier, and a truck you bolted armor plates too and mounted an anti-material rifle to the bed. It's way more dangerous than any regular truck...but it's still a crappy APC.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

flatline wrote:Cheap is, of course, relative, but in another thread recently someone discounted the value of Chipwell power armor. I'm paraphrasing, but clearly the poster thought they were death traps.

For about the price of good EBA, you can have 120MDC, run 40mph, jump 15ft, enhanced strength (PS 20 is mightier than most of my characters), and all the amenities of power armor (radar, controlled environment, etc). What's not to love?

The mistake that I think people make is that they want to compare it to other power armor that costs 30x as much when they should be comparing it against EBA which costs about 30% less. Sure, it's clearly not as good as a Super-SAMAS, but it's disposable like EBA. Treat it that way.

It's like complaining that a cut down but fully functional car that is priced like a bicycle isn't as capable as a more typical car that costs 20x as much when instead they should be marveling that they can get a fully functional car for the price of a bicycle.

I played for years wearing Plastic-Man because it was the cheapest EBA available. Could I take as much damage as the guy wearing heavier stuff? Of course not, but I promise I got shot at a whole lot less because I was perceived as the lesser threat. Also, I kept my head down because I didn't expect my armor to keep me alive. When Mercenaries came out with Chipwell power armor, I was excited because now I could run 40mph.

It's all about expectations.

--flatline

Personally, I always loved the idea of the Chipwell too. but with that said, They do have one big disadvantage.

As you said, with the plastic man, you were perceived as less of a threat. they were confident you'd be easy to "mop up" after the larger threats were taken out, so you didn't get shot at much. which is good, because a couple lucky rolls really was all your armor could take (or maybe 3-4 unlucky ones)

the Chipwell will not be seen as not a threat. why? because like you said, it DOES have all the anemnities of power armor. you will be stronger, faster, have better sensors, more MDC, and the strength to use heavy PA level weaponry. That will make you a threat compared to everyone else in regular EBA.

Or to put another way: It might be the "crappiest" power armor in the game, but that's like saying it's the crappiest tank in the game--you are still way more dangerous with it than regular infantry, and if you are the only power armor user in your group, then they will focus fire on you--and they really do only have 120 MDC. which, while 4x as much as a plastic man armor, goes by a lot faster when everyone is concentrating fire at you.


And that's why it's considered a deathtrap. not because it isn't useful, because power armor is always useful, but because it warrents the same kind of fire as larger PA's do...without the durability of other PA's to take that kind of punishment.

It's the difference between a proper armored personell carrier, and a truck you bolted armor plates too and mounted an anti-material rifle to the bed. It's way more dangerous than any regular truck...but it's still a crappy APC.

Except if the public perception is that they're crap and easily dismissed they're going to worry about the people in the obvious non-crap armor unless the guy in the Chipwell is sporting obviously more powerful weapons to make killing them more important than the guy in the Glitter Boy (and I don't think any PC has any hope of having access to man-portable weapons that would make them look more dangerous than the top end power armors and robot vehicles).

Nightmask wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

flatline wrote:Cheap is, of course, relative, but in another thread recently someone discounted the value of Chipwell power armor. I'm paraphrasing, but clearly the poster thought they were death traps.

For about the price of good EBA, you can have 120MDC, run 40mph, jump 15ft, enhanced strength (PS 20 is mightier than most of my characters), and all the amenities of power armor (radar, controlled environment, etc). What's not to love?

The mistake that I think people make is that they want to compare it to other power armor that costs 30x as much when they should be comparing it against EBA which costs about 30% less. Sure, it's clearly not as good as a Super-SAMAS, but it's disposable like EBA. Treat it that way.

It's like complaining that a cut down but fully functional car that is priced like a bicycle isn't as capable as a more typical car that costs 20x as much when instead they should be marveling that they can get a fully functional car for the price of a bicycle.

I played for years wearing Plastic-Man because it was the cheapest EBA available. Could I take as much damage as the guy wearing heavier stuff? Of course not, but I promise I got shot at a whole lot less because I was perceived as the lesser threat. Also, I kept my head down because I didn't expect my armor to keep me alive. When Mercenaries came out with Chipwell power armor, I was excited because now I could run 40mph.

It's all about expectations.

--flatline

Personally, I always loved the idea of the Chipwell too. but with that said, They do have one big disadvantage.

As you said, with the plastic man, you were perceived as less of a threat. they were confident you'd be easy to "mop up" after the larger threats were taken out, so you didn't get shot at much. which is good, because a couple lucky rolls really was all your armor could take (or maybe 3-4 unlucky ones)

the Chipwell will not be seen as not a threat. why? because like you said, it DOES have all the anemnities of power armor. you will be stronger, faster, have better sensors, more MDC, and the strength to use heavy PA level weaponry. That will make you a threat compared to everyone else in regular EBA.

Or to put another way: It might be the "crappiest" power armor in the game, but that's like saying it's the crappiest tank in the game--you are still way more dangerous with it than regular infantry, and if you are the only power armor user in your group, then they will focus fire on you--and they really do only have 120 MDC. which, while 4x as much as a plastic man armor, goes by a lot faster when everyone is concentrating fire at you.


And that's why it's considered a deathtrap. not because it isn't useful, because power armor is always useful, but because it warrents the same kind of fire as larger PA's do...without the durability of other PA's to take that kind of punishment.

It's the difference between a proper armored personell carrier, and a truck you bolted armor plates too and mounted an anti-material rifle to the bed. It's way more dangerous than any regular truck...but it's still a crappy APC.

Except if the public perception is that they're crap and easily dismissed they're going to worry about the people in the obvious non-crap armor unless the guy in the Chipwell is sporting obviously more powerful weapons to make killing them more important than the guy in the Glitter Boy (and I don't think any PC has any hope of having access to man-portable weapons that would make them look more dangerous than the top end power armors and robot vehicles).

My point is that they are seen as crap power armor, which is still more dangerous than regular armor.

or are you seriously going to tell me they are going to see someone in Huntsman and NG-L5 as more of a threat, than someone in a CAI-50 and an NG-E12? No. they are seen as less of a threat compared to any other power armor, but if it's a choice between the guy in power armor and unpowered armor, then the guy in the Chipwell is still, rightly, seen as more of a threat by anyone.

just not as much as if there is a SAMAS right beside them.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:My point is that they are seen as crap power armor, which is still more dangerous than regular armor.

or are you seriously going to tell me they are going to see someone in Huntsman and NG-L5 as more of a threat, than someone in a CAI-50 and an NG-E12? No. they are seen as less of a threat compared to any other power armor, but if it's a choice between the guy in power armor and unpowered armor, then the guy in the Chipwell is still, rightly, seen as more of a threat by anyone.

just not as much as if there is a SAMAS right beside them.

I agree. Even in Chipwell power armor, you'll only be seen as the "lesser threat" if you are in the company of guys who are bigger and badder than you.

--flatline

Of course, the thing I like about Chipwell PA is that they're a great candidate for TW improvements. Even a fairly low level Techno-Wizard can make a dramatic upgrade to the unit--which results in quite a surprise for an opponent.

on the flip side, if you're taking 120+ damage in between getting to a place where you can repair your armour, and you have the *highest* amount of MDC in the party... you may wish to re-think things a bit.

for example, just because you have a suit of (very light) power armour doesn't mean you shouldn't use cover or try to avoid fights.

(with that said, if you're actually buying power armour it's pretty likely you could buy several suits of chipwell armour and a vehicle to haul them around for less than the price of one more expensive power armour, and then just replace them as they get damaged, for more total toughness than the one heavier armour... not to mention that multiple people could all use the power armour instead of just you).

flatline wrote:

Nekira Sudacne wrote:My point is that they are seen as crap power armor, which is still more dangerous than regular armor.

or are you seriously going to tell me they are going to see someone in Huntsman and NG-L5 as more of a threat, than someone in a CAI-50 and an NG-E12? No. they are seen as less of a threat compared to any other power armor, but if it's a choice between the guy in power armor and unpowered armor, then the guy in the Chipwell is still, rightly, seen as more of a threat by anyone.

just not as much as if there is a SAMAS right beside them.

I agree. Even in Chipwell power armor, you'll only be seen as the "lesser threat" if you are in the company of guys who are bigger and badder than you.

--flatline

Yup.
I see Chipwell stuff as kind of like Scud Missiles or Kel-Tec firearms... People who know their gear might laugh at you for having it, but if you bring one to a fight, but they're not going to ignore the threat it poses.

Shark_Force wrote:on the flip side, if you're taking 120+ damage in between getting to a place where you can repair your armour, and you have the *highest* amount of MDC in the party... you may wish to re-think things a bit.

Indeed.
And a lot of Chipwell stuff would be used less by adventurers, and more by the militias and/or armed forces of small kingdoms/cities/whatever, where they don't generally stray from home long enough to expect to take that much damage before repairs.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Shark_Force wrote:on the flip side, if you're taking 120+ damage in between getting to a place where you can repair your armour, and you have the *highest* amount of MDC in the party... you may wish to re-think things a bit.

Indeed.
And a lot of Chipwell stuff would be used less by adventurers, and more by the militias and/or armed forces of small kingdoms/cities/whatever, where they don't generally stray from home long enough to expect to take that much damage before repairs.

depends. if, as mack noted, you have a TW upgraded one (so presumably a force field or similar to help with the lower MDC, for example, plus other possible features) they don't really compare badly at all, imo. if you're just looking for the frame to upgrade, chipwell is not a bad choice

(and honestly, even for adventurers... if you have 3-4 people who can make use of power armour and you have the funds to either buy one high quality suit or 4 chipwell suits, I'd spring for the chipwell suits. particularly since if you have enough money to buy 1/4 of a high quality suit that might be enough to buy you a full chipwell suit, which is far more useful than 1/4 of a better suit )

obviously, if you have an unlimited budget, you're not going to use chipwell... but I don't think I'd go so far as to say that adventurers are unlikely to have budget concerns like everyone else.

When I say get better suits. I'm not saying at first level or if a group does not have the money to do so. Then by all means go for the Chipwell stuff. Except that as one gets higher and higher in level. One needs to improve their equipment to survive. a 50 MDC suit may seem like much at first level. At higher levels and with the right player group or npc enemies it's really easy to take out someone in a 50 MDC suit. Yes the Chipwell stuff can be upgraded. One also has to balance that to see if it's cheaper to go with a more expensive suit. As well if the game is set anywhere near CS territory good luck getting that into a area where the CS has a decent amount of influence.

So I couldn't resist working up a some quick & dirty TW mods for a Chipwell PA. As a rule of thumb I looked for low level spells to address the suit's shortcomings and keep the complexity low so that almost any Techno-Wizard could do it.

Protection: Armor of Ithan, level 5. Stores PPE for 5 activations. Build Cost $85,000.
Mobility: Winged Flight + Superhuman Strength, level 5. Stores PPE for 5 activations. Build Cost $80,000.
Stealth: Invisibility Simple, level 5. Stores PPE for 5 activations. Build Cost $68,500.
Sustainability: Mend the Broken (Ley Line Powered only), mends 5 MDC per activation but only when on a ley line. Build Cost $8,800.

For all four total the Build Cost is $243,000. If memory serves the suit itself is only $250,000, so altogether it's about a half-million credits. And the pilot can be a mundane (non-psychic, non-mage, etc) though recharging the first three would need a psychic / mage.

Sureshot wrote:I get away from having to buy the cheaper stuff because in real life that's what I sometimes have to do. Why should my character have to go around with the cheap stuff. Not unless I have to. I play rpgs to get away from the mundane of real life.

That's why all ten of my weapons have Eyes of Eyelor installed in them, it's only a billion to upgrade the set and they can teleport into position while my trio of Swords of Atlantis lob force bolts then close into melee to soul-drink the infantry.

I am a fan of the Chipwell stuff myself. Yah okay the Warmonger is a specialty item.
But the other stuff? Challanger, Vampire Combat Armor Mk. II, and Sky Power Armor are amazing deals
They offer a great way to optimize your credits. Yes they are the bottom rung of Power Armor, that's like saying that a Geo is worthless because its not a Ferrari.
These suits tend to have around 2-5 the MDC of a suit of armor for 2-3 times the cost. They add on a range of power armor features (strength, sensors, communicators, etc.)
Yes, they may draw extra fire....however if every one is wearing such a suit rather than simple body armor, they are more likely to survive that fire.

Tor wrote:That's why all ten of my weapons have Eyes of Eyelor installed in them, it's only a billion to upgrade the set and they can teleport into position while my trio of Swords of Atlantis lob force bolts then close into melee to soul-drink the infantry.

Oh of course. The Chipwell stuff can be upgraded and I do the same. What has me shaking my head is how causally we Rifts fans toss around figures like "it's only 250,000 credits to upgrade this. Or a billion for that" as gaming terms. Most games with money don't have such high amounts in a players hands. The closest I can think off is Shadowrun.

Sureshot wrote:

Tor wrote:That's why all ten of my weapons have Eyes of Eyelor installed in them, it's only a billion to upgrade the set and they can teleport into position while my trio of Swords of Atlantis lob force bolts then close into melee to soul-drink the infantry.

Oh of course. The Chipwell stuff can be upgraded and I do the same. What has me shaking my head is how causally we Rifts fans toss around figures like "it's only 250,000 credits to upgrade this. Or a billion for that" as gaming terms. Most games with money don't have such high amounts in a players hands. The closest I can think off is Shadowrun.

I'm quite certain his post was made in jest.

However, your post is certainly valid. Equipment prices are crazy and loot adds up quickly. If you can sell your loot for even just 10% the listed price, it's easy to end up with wealth in the millions or tens of millions range very quickly.

--flatline

About all this being-targetted stuff... wouldn't it be popular to be wearing big billowy cloaks or capes over your PA for camo reasons and to hide how good your gear is?

Tor wrote:About all this being-targetted stuff... wouldn't it be popular to be wearing big billowy cloaks or capes over your PA for camo reasons and to hide how good your gear is?

they might get clogged into the air intake or cooling systems if you did.

but it wouldn't last too long--the first missile or grenade would obliterate the cape, especially a plasma one.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Tor wrote:About all this being-targetted stuff... wouldn't it be popular to be wearing big billowy cloaks or capes over your PA for camo reasons and to hide how good your gear is?

they might get clogged into the air intake or cooling systems if you did.

but it wouldn't last too long--the first missile or grenade would obliterate the cape, especially a plasma one.

Not to mention that it would cover your own sensors/weapons, and either hamper your own movement or get ripped to shreds as you walk/run.

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

Tor wrote:About all this being-targetted stuff... wouldn't it be popular to be wearing big billowy cloaks or capes over your PA for camo reasons and to hide how good your gear is?

they might get clogged into the air intake or cooling systems if you did.

but it wouldn't last too long--the first missile or grenade would obliterate the cape, especially a plasma one.

The other thing is that why do people assume that the guys in body armor are not going to be targeted?
I usually try to target the guys in EBA first, so I can take them out quick.
Then crack the power armors
If I am first striking with missiles you go for the heaviest power armors.....

Both of which puts chipwell right in the middle of the attack order

Sureshot wrote:

Tor wrote:That's why all ten of my weapons have Eyes of Eyelor installed in them, it's only a billion to upgrade the set and they can teleport into position while my trio of Swords of Atlantis lob force bolts then close into melee to soul-drink the infantry.

Oh of course. The Chipwell stuff can be upgraded and I do the same. What has me shaking my head is how causally we Rifts fans toss around figures like "it's only 250,000 credits to upgrade this. Or a billion for that" as gaming terms. Most games with money don't have such high amounts in a players hands. The closest I can think off is Shadowrun.

"only 250,000 credits to upgrade" still leaves the chipwell suits cheaper than most of their competitors. if price is a concern, that puts the chipwell suit further ahead, not further behind.

(though obviously, if you have the money, it would be better to start off with the better suit and then spend "only 250,000 credits" to upgrade *that* instead )

simply put, if budget is a concern (and with the cost to repair stuff, it very well may be), chipwell suits provide maybe half the effectiveness but cost typically 1/4 the price or less. that's not a bad deal.

Shark_Force wrote:

Sureshot wrote:

Tor wrote:That's why all ten of my weapons have Eyes of Eyelor installed in them, it's only a billion to upgrade the set and they can teleport into position while my trio of Swords of Atlantis lob force bolts then close into melee to soul-drink the infantry.

Oh of course. The Chipwell stuff can be upgraded and I do the same. What has me shaking my head is how causally we Rifts fans toss around figures like "it's only 250,000 credits to upgrade this. Or a billion for that" as gaming terms. Most games with money don't have such high amounts in a players hands. The closest I can think off is Shadowrun.

"only 250,000 credits to upgrade" still leaves the chipwell suits cheaper than most of their competitors. if price is a concern, that puts the chipwell suit further ahead, not further behind.

(though obviously, if you have the money, it would be better to start off with the better suit and then spend "only 250,000 credits" to upgrade *that* instead )

simply put, if budget is a concern (and with the cost to repair stuff, it very well may be), chipwell suits provide maybe half the effectiveness but cost typically 1/4 the price or less. that's not a bad deal.

Light years ahead
If the Chipwell suit costs 250,000 to start with, then takes 250,000 to upgrade for the TW its now 500,000
Which means I can outfit my entire SQUAD with that powerarmor....or buy one suit of the next cheapest power armor....

the only downside i can see is that since the chipwell PA is an actual PA, you need the pilot robots and PA skill and the appropriate PA combat skill to use it fully.

while EBA does not require any special skills to use.

that said, the chipwell stuff would be a fairly easy way to put a PA onto the field.

as for the chipwell reputation, i'd say that is meant to be roleplay purposes. so that Gm's and players know that chipwell's stuff is supposed to look and work a bit different in details.. like say, the armor is visably bulkier and looks a lot more industrial, it uses a lot more analog systems instead of digital, monochrome displays (or displays with fewer colors/lower resolution), etc..

glitterboy2098 wrote:the only downside i can see is that since the chipwell PA is an actual PA, you need the pilot robots and PA skill and the appropriate PA combat skill to use it fully.

while EBA does not require any special skills to use.

This is one of the failings of the Palladium System. In other systems, if a character gets a piece of equipment and spends time with it, they can eventually develop some level of skill with it. With Palladium, you can't add a skill unless you level up, and even then you don't get skills every time you level up and even then you're limited to an arbitrarily limited list of skills that can be learned (I can learn to use a high powered rifle, but not a shotgun? What sense does that make? And why can't I study a physics textbook in my spare time?).

Fortunately for me, every GM I've ever played had house rules to allow for this sort of thing.

--flatline

Shark_Force wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Shark_Force wrote:on the flip side, if you're taking 120+ damage in between getting to a place where you can repair your armour, and you have the *highest* amount of MDC in the party... you may wish to re-think things a bit.

Indeed.
And a lot of Chipwell stuff would be used less by adventurers, and more by the militias and/or armed forces of small kingdoms/cities/whatever, where they don't generally stray from home long enough to expect to take that much damage before repairs.

depends. if, as mack noted, you have a TW upgraded one (so presumably a force field or similar to help with the lower MDC, for example, plus other possible features) they don't really compare badly at all, imo. if you're just looking for the frame to upgrade, chipwell is not a bad choice

With the right TW upgrades, cardboard box armor is viable.
So I don't see that as a plus for Chipwell.

flatline wrote:

glitterboy2098 wrote:the only downside i can see is that since the chipwell PA is an actual PA, you need the pilot robots and PA skill and the appropriate PA combat skill to use it fully.

while EBA does not require any special skills to use.

This is one of the failings of the Palladium System. In other systems, if a character gets a piece of equipment and spends time with it, they can eventually develop some level of skill with it. With Palladium, you can't add a skill unless you level up, and even then you don't get skills every time you level up and even then you're limited to an arbitrarily limited list of skills that can be learned (I can learn to use a high powered rifle, but not a shotgun? What sense does that make? And why can't I study a physics textbook in my spare time?).

Fortunately for me, every GM I've ever played had house rules to allow for this sort of thing.

--flatline

Hm. Actually, I believe there are a few ways to learn new skills other than leveling up.
BtS pp 28-29 discusses a character going back to school to learn or improve his skills, for example.
There are some magic ways to acquire skills as well.

The main issue, I think is that it takes time, money, and often a teacher.
You can't just give a random person a helicopter, and expect him to learn how to fly it on his own, and I'm not sure that power armor would be much different.

the big downside of "cheap" gear like the plasticman or chipwell stuff is that some people also use what is known in battletech as the "rifleman targeting syndrome" IE you go for the unit that has the lowest armor, but highest nuisance value first. IE if you are rocking a suit of chipwell armor, and likely medium-heavy weapons, even if you aren't the highest threat target out there you are disproportionally "squishy" for the threat level you provide, some people (like me) would go out of our way to kill you first just to get you out of the picture.

guardiandashi wrote:the big downside of "cheap" gear like the plasticman or chipwell stuff is that some people also use what is known in battletech as the "rifleman targeting syndrome" IE you go for the unit that has the lowest armor, but highest nuisance value first. IE if you are rocking a suit of chipwell armor, and likely medium-heavy weapons, even if you aren't the highest threat target out there you are disproportionally "squishy" for the threat level you provide, some people (like me) would go out of our way to kill you first just to get you out of the picture.

So...don't mount a boom gun on a chipwell, is what you're sayin'?

guardiandashi wrote:the big downside of "cheap" gear like the plasticman or chipwell stuff is that some people also use what is known in battletech as the "rifleman targeting syndrome" IE you go for the unit that has the lowest armor, but highest nuisance value first. IE if you are rocking a suit of chipwell armor, and likely medium-heavy weapons, even if you aren't the highest threat target out there you are disproportionally "squishy" for the threat level you provide, some people (like me) would go out of our way to kill you first just to get you out of the picture.

I'm familiar with that strategy. Sometimes it's a good strategy. Sometimes it's a distraction.

I won't go out of my way to kill any particular target unless it's required to achieve the mission objective, but if given the opportunity, I will attempt to take out targets that seem most likely to cause problems for the group in the event that we need to retreat from combat.

If the objective is to totally wipe out the enemy forces, I will typically prioritize targets that are most likely to be able to get away if they decide to retreat.

In Battletech (at least the classic designs that I remember), the Rifleman and Warhammer had pretty thin skin for their weight class, but they were also slow and couldn't jump. Whether we targeted them early or late in the encounter was entirely situationally dependent.

--flatline

Nekira Sudacne wrote:

guardiandashi wrote:the big downside of "cheap" gear like the plasticman or chipwell stuff is that some people also use what is known in battletech as the "rifleman targeting syndrome" IE you go for the unit that has the lowest armor, but highest nuisance value first. IE if you are rocking a suit of chipwell armor, and likely medium-heavy weapons, even if you aren't the highest threat target out there you are disproportionally "squishy" for the threat level you provide, some people (like me) would go out of our way to kill you first just to get you out of the picture.

So...don't mount a boom gun on a chipwell, is what you're sayin'?

well yes but I was actually thinking you might be packing something like a light rail gun or plasma ejector commonly, basically the weapons that a "normal" person would consider to be "heavy weapons". IE something like a NG-E12 heavy plasma ejector or a coalition C-29 when it comes out.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Shark_Force wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Shark_Force wrote:on the flip side, if you're taking 120+ damage in between getting to a place where you can repair your armour, and you have the *highest* amount of MDC in the party... you may wish to re-think things a bit.

Indeed.
And a lot of Chipwell stuff would be used less by adventurers, and more by the militias and/or armed forces of small kingdoms/cities/whatever, where they don't generally stray from home long enough to expect to take that much damage before repairs.

depends. if, as mack noted, you have a TW upgraded one (so presumably a force field or similar to help with the lower MDC, for example, plus other possible features) they don't really compare badly at all, imo. if you're just looking for the frame to upgrade, chipwell is not a bad choice

With the right TW upgrades, cardboard box armor is viable.
So I don't see that as a plus for Chipwell.

sure. but just as the more expensive power armour has a higher starting point than the chipwell armour, the chipwell armour has a higher starting point than the cardboard box.

again, if money is not an issue, don't use chipwell. if it is an issue, then chipwell may be the best choice purely because in spite of being basically the worst power armour, it's still the best power armour you can afford.

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Shark_Force wrote:

Killer Cyborg wrote:

Shark_Force wrote:on the flip side, if you're taking 120+ damage in between getting to a place where you can repair your armour, and you have the *highest* amount of MDC in the party... you may wish to re-think things a bit.

Indeed.
And a lot of Chipwell stuff would be used less by adventurers, and more by the militias and/or armed forces of small kingdoms/cities/whatever, where they don't generally stray from home long enough to expect to take that much damage before repairs.

depends. if, as mack noted, you have a TW upgraded one (so presumably a force field or similar to help with the lower MDC, for example, plus other possible features) they don't really compare badly at all, imo. if you're just looking for the frame to upgrade, chipwell is not a bad choice

With the right TW upgrades, cardboard box armor is viable.
So I don't see that as a plus for Chipwell.

Hmm..

Challange for ya, KC. Make a TW Paper armor out of Silver Rune Parchment (which is thus indestructable) that's viable without the normal weakness's of such.

Given the reputation Chipwell has, if you played dead after taking a hit, how likely are enemies to believe it and turn their attention to another target?

--flatline

Nekira Sudacne wrote:might get clogged into the air intake or cooling systems

Mack wrote:Not to mention that it would cover your own sensors/weapons, and either hamper your own movement or get ripped to shreds as you walk/run.

Solution: cut enough holes in the cloak to avoid obstructing air/cooling systems and to expose sensors and weapons, affix it in a way so locomotion doesn't traumatize it.

As for the plasma missile thing: well, that's why we have Impervious to Energy talismans, protects yo clothes.

One of the more amusing uses of Chipwell stuff was to outfit urban police forces in my games with Warmonger suits.
Yeah okay, so it could be hurt by SDC, it still took almost as much pounding as a suit of light body armor, was cheaper to fix, was less likely to trigger 'god syndrome', provided some augmentation that mere body armor didn't, and a number of other perks.
The 'swat' team had some Challanger suits in the arms room.
(I also had them armed with shotguns and ram-jets in addition to their neural maces
It worked out pretty well. The entire police force for the entire city ended up costing a couple million credits if I recall correctly. It was big bucks...for NPCs, and a TON of fire power for a city. It was also just enough fire power to keep the metas in line, but it wasn't enough that the players felt like there was an unreasonable amount of firepower, nor did they want to burn the place down and loot it....why loot chipwell suits right?
Remember, not everything is designed for high level adventurers or for elite special forces teams.

Am curious about the 'cheaper to fix' part, does a point of MDC cost less to repair on PA than on body armor or something?

Tor wrote:Am curious about the 'cheaper to fix' part, does a point of MDC cost less to repair on PA than on body armor or something?

SDC repairs vs MDC

Huh... *takes a 2nd glance at Mend the Broken in FoM*

50 PPE repairs 100 SDC and 30 PPE repairs 1 MDC... so it can't be that...

Do operators offer cheaper rates for 100 SDC compared to 1 MDC?

Tor wrote:Huh... *takes a 2nd glance at Mend the Broken in FoM*

50 PPE repairs 100 SDC and 30 PPE repairs 1 MDC... so it can't be that...

Do operators offer cheaper rates for 100 SDC compared to 1 MDC?

I think the presumption is that SDC materials are cheaper to acquire and much easier to use, but I don't actually see that in the books anywhere (not that I've look all that hard).

--flatline

eliakon wrote:

Shark_Force wrote:

Sureshot wrote:

Tor wrote:That's why all ten of my weapons have Eyes of Eyelor installed in them, it's only a billion to upgrade the set and they can teleport into position while my trio of Swords of Atlantis lob force bolts then close into melee to soul-drink the infantry.

Oh of course. The Chipwell stuff can be upgraded and I do the same. What has me shaking my head is how causally we Rifts fans toss around figures like "it's only 250,000 credits to upgrade this. Or a billion for that" as gaming terms. Most games with money don't have such high amounts in a players hands. The closest I can think off is Shadowrun.

"only 250,000 credits to upgrade" still leaves the chipwell suits cheaper than most of their competitors. if price is a concern, that puts the chipwell suit further ahead, not further behind.

(though obviously, if you have the money, it would be better to start off with the better suit and then spend "only 250,000 credits" to upgrade *that* instead )

simply put, if budget is a concern (and with the cost to repair stuff, it very well may be), chipwell suits provide maybe half the effectiveness but cost typically 1/4 the price or less. that's not a bad deal.

Light years ahead
If the Chipwell suit costs 250,000 to start with, then takes 250,000 to upgrade for the TW its now 500,000
Which means I can outfit my entire SQUAD with that powerarmor....or buy one suit of the next cheapest power armor....

Um recheck your math.
a squad of infantry is typically 8-12 soldiers. That means you have a cost of equipping a 8 man squad will be 4 million credits. Flying Titan PA has a cost of 1 million credits. Even dropping down the base unit cost you can only equip a fire team of 4 for the cost of 1 flying titan.
The NG Samson PA has a cost of 850K-950K. So you can not quite equip a 4 man fire team even the basic model for the cost of 1 NG Samson.

The reason for the stigma on Chipwell comes from the fluff and the SDC PA they make. (So if it exist that was what the writers wanted)
The cheapest Chipwell suits I see has a cost of 2X that of standard heavy EBAs in the Rifts Ultimate Edition book.

Personally when I play I never treat any armor I have as expendable and do what I can to make it last regardless of what it is. I have had charters use plastic man EBA, and a few that keep several safe house stashes with cheep secondary gear incase they loose there main armor.

This topic heading was a little misleading as it is the merits of chipwell suits. They do have there place but most players do not pay for there starting gear with a cash pool allownece, so they tend not see acquiring starting gear as having a cost and in play they will replace lost gear with what they can afford. And last time I checked repairs and rechargers are set up to strip them off allot of on hand cash.

That said there are allot of cheep items that have strong merits. Some most people would not think of like wipes. While traveling through the woods you may not always be able to shower or bath to stay clean but simple pack of baby wipes or a wash cloth and water and you can stay some what fresh even away from indoor plumbing.

The importance of the equipment depends almost entirely on who is paying for it. Real world soldiers, given the choice, carry weapons that cost 10+ times what the cheapest equivalents cost. And every item, weapon, and armor, is disposable if it means the bearer gets to live. Remember - conserving resources so you don't die tomorrow does nothing if you die today instead.

Think about it this way - whenever you save money by skimping on MDC, firepower, mobility, or stealth, you are gambling that whatever you have compromised isn't going to end your life. If you pass up 300 MDC to have 120 MDC, you are betting that your frail, mortal, one-of-a-kind, SDC body is not going to face 121 MDC of damage before you can repair it. As players able to roll a new character, or as politicians and generals allocating a military budget across dozens or thousands or millions of troops, you may be willing to take that gamble because you can absorb the loss when and if you are wrong. But the body in that armor is going to feel differently* - the willingness to save money at the risk of life is going to depend solely on how much they value their life and what that money would buy in the event of their death.

Realistically, you have a certain number of credits and a limited catalog of items available for purchase at any time. If you buy that Chipwell suit, it is either going to be because (a) you don't care about dying, (b) you can't get better, (c) your best total equipment load increases your perceived survivability by skimping on the armor and spending elsewhere, or (d) you are fighting for a higher cause that needs that money more than it needs your life. Those can happen, but they are not typical occurrences in any game I have played**.

*: Categorically excluding Juicers, Crazies, and similar nutjobs.
**: Among players, that is.

Tor wrote:Am curious about the 'cheaper to fix' part, does a point of MDC cost less to repair on PA than on body armor or something?

can't recall for certain. I do recall canonically robot vehicle repairs are crazy stupid insano-expensive (a part of me wants to claim 10,000 credits per MDC, but I really want to believe that's not true).

body armour is definitely less expensive than robots to repair (I seem to recall 1,000 credits per MDC, and even that I want to believe is higher than the actual number, though I worry that it is actually accurate).

I just can't remember whether power armours are treated like body armours, or like robot vehicles, or as a category of their own. I *think* the official standard repair costs were in SB1 (which I no longer have access to), but I can't recall for certain (not having access to it causes some difficulty there ). pretty sure it's in a Q&A section somewhere, at any rate (which would suggest either CB 1 or SB 1, and I haven't seen it in my CB 1 though I could be blind).

@ cosmicfish: it's worth noting that saving your hide today being more important than conserving resources tomorrow will lead many soldiers to use chipwell armour, far more so than waiting for the really expensive stuff. sure, nobody will choose it if all else is equal when they could have a tougher suit, but all else isn't equal. the chipwell suits are something like 1/4 to 1/3 the price of the next cheapest options. there is a fairly large margin where the best protection you can afford probably *is* the chipwell suit, and odds are good that if you're setting it aside to wait for a better suit later you're actually opting out of power armour entirely and just wearing at best an exoskeleton (which doesn't give any PA combat bonuses from skills, so you lose out on a little bit of extra defense and offense there). an urgent need to keep yourself alive will lead you to use chipwell gear, not because it is good compared to other power armour, but because it is better than settling for regular body armour.

Shark_Force wrote:@ cosmicfish: it's worth noting that saving your hide today being more important than conserving resources tomorrow will lead many soldiers to use chipwell armour, far more so than waiting for the really expensive stuff. sure, nobody will choose it if all else is equal when they could have a tougher suit, but all else isn't equal. the chipwell suits are something like 1/4 to 1/3 the price of the next cheapest options. there is a fairly large margin where the best protection you can afford probably *is* the chipwell suit, and odds are good that if you're setting it aside to wait for a better suit later you're actually opting out of power armour entirely and just wearing at best an exoskeleton (which doesn't give any PA combat bonuses from skills, so you lose out on a little bit of extra defense and offense there). an urgent need to keep yourself alive will lead you to use chipwell gear, not because it is good compared to other power armour, but because it is better than settling for regular body armour.

That is part of what I already said - see reason (b). Or potentially (c). But it seems that much of this thread is suggesting that someone able to buy better armor would nonetheless choose Chipwell, and outside the suicidal and the fanatical, I don't see that as a realistic response.

cosmicfish wrote:That is part of what I already said - see reason (b). Or potentially (c). But it seems that much of this thread is suggesting that someone able to buy better armor would nonetheless choose Chipwell, and outside the suicidal and the fanatical, I don't see that as a realistic response.

Seconded. When given a choice and enough credits one will always g for the better equipment. Always imo. It's a different story when one does not have the money. It's like saying a police officer has a choice between using a top of the line bulletproof vest and a older less effective model. You can bet when given a choice he will take the top of the line.

Tor wrote:Huh... *takes a 2nd glance at Mend the Broken in FoM*

50 PPE repairs 100 SDC and 30 PPE repairs 1 MDC... so it can't be that...

Do operators offer cheaper rates for 100 SDC compared to 1 MDC?

Mend armor would not be much cheaper but it allows you to do things like create iron/create steel or simply salvage more common and more easily worked with SDC materials. Any automotive mechanic with a welding torch could likely do basic repairs to armor on a warmonger without having to get into any of the specialized tools/techniques needed to repair/bond MDC alloy.


The warmonger is not the most awesome thing around but its got enough MDC for basic light MDC threat locations like cities/towns and its big enough and strong enough to still be pretty intimidating to normal gangers/thugs. Even the lowest end power armor is still power armor after all and a lot of civilians really are not going to know the difference in power level between a warmonger and a samson because either of those units could instantly kill them so to normal people they are nearly equally powerful.

They also are pretty reasonable salvage unit mechs they are strong enough to help lift/carry/cut salvage and tough enough to handle light combat needs if some fight breaks out when you are working salvaging something.

One of the nicest things that NG2 does is it fills in the spectrum of armor for players to look at. You have chipwell on the low end of cost/features and now you have quite a few units from the NG that offer more capabilities than the chipwell models but have options for battery packs or solid oxide power supplies as well as nukes so you can adjust the cost for the units significantly.

The NG's new thunderhound armor is a nice set of basic armor a bit more expensive than the chipwell armors but with good capabilities and does not even require any power armor skill to pilot it and comes with a pretty nifty chainsword.

But now instead of basically having chipwell and then the next best units being 1 million plus in price there are quite a few options in between.

Some are really deceptively good such as the prophet armor. It at first glance is not that amazing not super high MDC and looks somewhat plain but if you go electric on it you can get a sub 1 million credit armor that has auto dodge and an amazing sensor suite which makes it insanely good for picking up bounties in the field and fast field identification of targets.